What impact do Kawasaki engineers really have?

Sailariel · April 2nd, 2009, 06:34 PM

Maybe I am getting old. I do know that at 67, I am probably one of the oldest members of this forum. My general question involves the initial engineering that has gone into the Ninjette. I have been following this forum for some time now and have found that the majority of the participants are street riders. The first thing that comes off the bike is the muffler (ostensibly because it sounds wimpy). The next step is to balance that off with air box removal and carb rejetting. We then get into changing the gear ratios with sprocket changes, then tyre size changes, and lowering the front and back of the bike. So now we have an entity that has no mechanical resemblance to the original. I guess that I just don`t get it. I have made some modifications to my bike, but they were all add ons--e.g. a Zero Gravity Sport Touring Windscreen, a pair of fog lights, a tank bra, different mirrors (ZX6R), brighter headlights and tail/brake light, and changing to Synthetic oil. I also added touring luggage. All these changes added to my enjoyment of the bike but did not change the stock configuration. I am wondering whether the modifications you all do to the bikes significantly improve performance in measurable terms. An increase in noise does not count. I am also looking down the road. Do these changes do anything in terms of the longevity of the engine and related machinery? Maybe it is too early to know.

kkim · April 2nd, 2009, 07:22 PM

The bikes are designed with a mythical target rider that needs to conform to certain emissions controls to be legally sold by the manufactures. (all bikes are)

Think of them as blank canvases for each owner to paint their version of what the bike should be. Some will leave it stock and enhance the touring capabilities, others will use them to race, while still others will pimp their ride out to look good for the Saturday night bike get together. I feel if the respective owners like what they've done to their bikes, what does it matter?

People will mod anything, so why would an entry level bike with potential to be a lot more be any different?

Alex · April 2nd, 2009, 07:34 PM

I agree in part with both of the first 2 posts in this thread. I don't mind people modding their bikes, and the more interesting the changes, the better. What bugs me is people making changes ostensibly for performance reasons, and they do little or no performance testing before and after to actually learn if their changes moved the bike in the positive or negative direction. In many cases, the viewpoint seems to be any change must have turned out to be a positive change no matter what. Without any real confirmation of the changes or improvements, they may as well be tassles hanging off the clip-ons.

As an example, there is a complete fool on BARF who is convinced his Aprilia Mille is now fully capable of 210 mph because he changed his sprockets to 17f/38r. No amount of science (or mockery) is able to convince this maroon that what he is stating is physically impossible by a tremendously large margin.

As an example closer to home, people who put slip-ons on the ninjette. We have an exhaust manufacturer here who designs and builds these things for a living, who has determined that a slip-on alone will provide negligible, if any, gains for the ninjette. The restrictions upstream of the can outweigh any possible gains by a more free-flowing slip-on compared to the stock muffler. Yet there are quite a few folks, even on this board, who may really believe that adding a slip-on provided a significant performance enhancement to their bike. BS. It successfully added a bunch of noise, for better or worse (and the noise issue is a separate discussion that doesn't necessarily need to be played out again in this thread).

Want to make performance changes? Show how the change allowed a higher top speed (measured in a reliable manner) Show how the change made the 40-60 mph roll-on take x seconds instead of x+2 seconds. Show how you now do the quarter-mile in x compared to x+2 at the local dragstrip. Made a handling change? Show how it gets you around a local track 3 seconds quicker, or show how it makes tire wear more even, or show how it physically allows more lean angle. If you have done none of these things, that doesn't mean that whatever changes were made didn't help the performance of the bike. But it sure doesn't mean that the changes helped the performance one iota either.

Now cosmetic mods, we all are going to have different opinions, and that's a good thing. For example, I've heard there are some people on this board who actually believe green is an attractive color on a motorcycle.

kkim · April 2nd, 2009, 07:41 PM

what difference does it make if the owners are happy with the changes? It's not my bike... why should I care what the next person puts on their bike? I do what I do for me... not for anyone else here. If I'm happy with the results, that's all that really counts.

If no one changed anything, this forum wouldn't exist.

Alex · April 2nd, 2009, 07:46 PM

I agree in full with your entire post (#4). Where I think we may start to partially disagree is when I start to see posts like:

- the bike is unrideable without this change
- the bike really wakes up with this change
- the bike feels smoother with this change

with the intention of convincing someone else to make whatever those changes are. In the extreme, I saw someone on this board blame their crash because the stock throttle response was such, and they wouldn't have crashed if they had made a minor change prior to that. (completely glossing over the point that they had 500 total miles of motorcycling experience at that point)

All of that is B.S. I love that forums like this exist, heck I created one!

But if someone simply wasn't exposed to some of the changes you can find up here and elsewhere (imagine the internet didn't exist), they could and likely would be utterly happy and content with their bike for years and years. What that means to me is that if we ever find ourselves saying "you need to go do this right away, as it really improves something that's basically broken on your stock bike", perhaps we should step back and figure out if that's truly the case.

kkim · April 2nd, 2009, 07:49 PM

oh... come on... go shim your needles already!

M-Oorb · April 2nd, 2009, 08:10 PM

I'm gunna have to agree with you both a little bit here. This is the first bike I've ever owned and first bike I ever rode...so basically I knew nothing about motor cycles. I bought and rode the bike for about 6 months before I ever looked at a motorcycle forum. I knew before then that my rear fender was ugly,the bike seemed to rev higher than I wanted it to while cruising and it would seriously bog down when I jumped on the gas from idle. So it was easy for me when I joined this forum and I learned about mod that fixed things I already didn't like (comp werks eliminator,sprocket,shim needles) I then learned about mods I would never have thought of and after reading opinions and having a little ground basis to work from I attempted and liked(snorkel removel) I also learned about aesthtic mods I wouldn't of thought of that I liked and tried(xhaust hanger,db smoke wind screen,seat cowl) but ill agree a lot of people will just buy things to buy things cause thy think it will make there bike better(slip ons) what really gets me is people who buy full exhausts and other things before they even bought the bike and had a chanc to ride it!
Posted via Mobile Device

Apex · April 2nd, 2009, 08:31 PM

Reading the fine print on my RS3 exhaust, it stated that you shouldn't even need to re-jet the bike afterwards. I've been keeping an eye on the tailpipe. If it starts to run lean, it should get a blue hue on it. Nothing as of yet. So I know the Yoshi RS3 exhaust is just to increase noise, which is why I got it. But that doesn't count.

I do plan on going with flushmounts (a little less drag), new clip ons, and new tires. In the looks department, I'm going to go with a more racing inspired graphics package, and lose the flames on the side. The flames bug me. After that I plan on racing it (running track days) and will upgrade the suspension only when I think I need it. I feel sometimes it is best to learn with sub-par equipment, it shows your weaknesses more. It lets you know when you really do something wrong, while I'm learning at the track, I need all the feedback I can get. Lets not forget it will show me what I "need" to upgrade vs doing blind mods. I do plan on upgrading the front rotors to petal-type rotors, new and better pads, and SS brake lines.

I'm not about power increase, but more of enhancing the experience on my little 250. I almost sold it this week, but I think I'm going to keep it. I can't just bring myself to ditching it.

My opinion on the modification part is that bike manufactures don't make bikes that everyone just loves. Right now the two bikes in the Kawasaki lineup that I really like are the 650R and 250R. The others are just sub par looks-wise. So if I did want the power of the 600 or zx10, I'd have to do something that made the bike look eye appealing to me. That may be new graphics, new plastics or whatever.

inbox526 · April 3rd, 2009, 12:35 AM

I personally mod because I enjoy the technical aspect of it. If it makes my riding experience so much better, then my money was well spent.

Yea, I'd put an intercooler and turbo on my 250, cut and weld a new frame addition, slap on lighter wheels, redo the gas tank shape among other ridiculous things. Not for performance's sake alone, but rather because I'd like to work out this particular technical puzzle.

okok maybe not the turbo. depends on how much i love this baby <3

SteveL · April 3rd, 2009, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailariel

Maybe I am getting old. I do know that at 67, I am probably one of the oldest members of this forum. My general question involves the initial engineering that has gone into the Ninjette. I have been following this forum for some time now and have found that the majority of the participants are street riders. The first thing that comes off the bike is the muffler (ostensibly because it sounds wimpy). The next step is to balance that off with air box removal and carb rejetting. We then get into changing the gear ratios with sprocket changes, then tyre size changes, and lowering the front and back of the bike. So now we have an entity that has no mechanical resemblance to the original. I guess that I just don`t get it. I have made some modifications to my bike, but they were all add ons--e.g. a Zero Gravity Sport Touring Windscreen, a pair of fog lights, a tank bra, different mirrors (ZX6R), brighter headlights and tail/brake light, and changing to Synthetic oil. I also added touring luggage. All these changes added to my enjoyment of the bike but did not change the stock configuration. I am wondering whether the modifications you all do to the bikes significantly improve performance in measurable terms. An increase in noise does not count. I am also looking down the road. Do these changes do anything in terms of the longevity of the engine and related machinery? Maybe it is too early to know.

Alex I am also in the older age group at 62 I don’t see any point in trying to make a 250 go faster, unless it’s for use on the track. I have had many bikes of various sizes and if or when I find my Ninja is not up to the task I will simply buy a bigger bike it’s not as if there is no choice, the ER6F looks nice. Regarding aesthetics sure add and change what you like to personalize your bike this is what I think is a worth while activity and shows self expression and creativity

Steve

Bill N · April 3rd, 2009, 03:01 PM

SteveL wrote my response for me concerning performance. If one is interested in track/drag strip performance go for the max. It's a challenge to get the most you can out of this little beast or any other motorcycle. I agree with going for what turns you on cosmetically as that can be creative and make the bike unique. But hey if I wanted more street performance, I'd buy a bigger bike and be done with it. Having said all that I'm fine with anybody doing whatever that makes them enjoy the bike more. Cheers, Bill..a youngster at age 61

HKr1 · April 3rd, 2009, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex

- the bike is unrideable without this change
- the bike really wakes up with this change
- the bike feels smoother with this change

These are personal comments/things. Everybody needs something different to make them feel better/safe

What works for you, doesnt really work for others

Sailariel · April 3rd, 2009, 06:46 PM

Thank you for all the different views. I had no problem with the Ninja`s performance, I also was sold on how quiet the bike was. I really had no choice in the colour, because it was the only bike left in the state. I have acquired a taste for Green. My choice would have been black and yellow (which was unavailable) or Red. The first thing that struck me about the bike was that the rear view mirrors were useless. I swapped them out for a longer stalk mirror--a pair from a Z6R with blind spot mirrors applied. I changed windscreens to a ZG Sport Touring so that the wind doesn`t beat me up too bad. I also added a set of fog lights because here in Coastal Maine, fog is a frequent weather condition one must deal with. I did change over to synthetic oil after the bike was properly broken in, I still may change my directional, tail and brake light, and fog lights to LED, but that is not a priority, My headlights were changed to the stronger Xenon lights. I am currently looking for a water temperature guage that I can install and not have it look like an add on, I have been able to adapt the bike so that I can ride farther under more conditions. I don`t think that any engine or gearing modifications are in the offing,

Purspeed · April 3rd, 2009, 08:11 PM

People want a project. People enjoy a bit of struggle.

M-Oorb · April 4th, 2009, 08:53 AM

As for the people who said if you want more speed get a bigger bike...there's a huge difference between a 600 and a 250 with an exhaust and some carb tuning. I don't think anyone who does these mods is expecting to acheive 600 results. But if you look at say area p's dynos the power band is much more linear and you get more power in places where some believe the bike needs it. And to some people tuning is a hobby...they take pleasure in the work. I can honestly say that I get enjoyment working on my bike. And to be a little cliche...the journey is sometimes more fun than the end.
Posted via Mobile Device

April 2nd, 2009, 06:34 PM	#1
Sailariel ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Alex Location: Belfast, ME Join Date: Jul 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Honda NT-700-V, formerly, Green 2008 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.	What impact do Kawasaki engineers really have? Maybe I am getting old. I do know that at 67, I am probably one of the oldest members of this forum. My general question involves the initial engineering that has gone into the Ninjette. I have been following this forum for some time now and have found that the majority of the participants are street riders. The first thing that comes off the bike is the muffler (ostensibly because it sounds wimpy). The next step is to balance that off with air box removal and carb rejetting. We then get into changing the gear ratios with sprocket changes, then tyre size changes, and lowering the front and back of the bike. So now we have an entity that has no mechanical resemblance to the original. I guess that I just don`t get it. I have made some modifications to my bike, but they were all add ons--e.g. a Zero Gravity Sport Touring Windscreen, a pair of fog lights, a tank bra, different mirrors (ZX6R), brighter headlights and tail/brake light, and changing to Synthetic oil. I also added touring luggage. All these changes added to my enjoyment of the bike but did not change the stock configuration. I am wondering whether the modifications you all do to the bikes significantly improve performance in measurable terms. An increase in noise does not count. I am also looking down the road. Do these changes do anything in terms of the longevity of the engine and related machinery? Maybe it is too early to know.

April 2nd, 2009, 07:34 PM	#3
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	I agree in part with both of the first 2 posts in this thread. I don't mind people modding their bikes, and the more interesting the changes, the better. What bugs me is people making changes ostensibly for performance reasons, and they do little or no performance testing before and after to actually learn if their changes moved the bike in the positive or negative direction. In many cases, the viewpoint seems to be any change must have turned out to be a positive change no matter what. Without any real confirmation of the changes or improvements, they may as well be tassles hanging off the clip-ons. As an example, there is a complete fool on BARF who is convinced his Aprilia Mille is now fully capable of 210 mph because he changed his sprockets to 17f/38r. No amount of science (or mockery) is able to convince this maroon that what he is stating is physically impossible by a tremendously large margin. As an example closer to home, people who put slip-ons on the ninjette. We have an exhaust manufacturer here who designs and builds these things for a living, who has determined that a slip-on alone will provide negligible, if any, gains for the ninjette. The restrictions upstream of the can outweigh any possible gains by a more free-flowing slip-on compared to the stock muffler. Yet there are quite a few folks, even on this board, who may really believe that adding a slip-on provided a significant performance enhancement to their bike. BS. It successfully added a bunch of noise, for better or worse (and the noise issue is a separate discussion that doesn't necessarily need to be played out again in this thread). Want to make performance changes? Show how the change allowed a higher top speed (measured in a reliable manner) Show how the change made the 40-60 mph roll-on take x seconds instead of x+2 seconds. Show how you now do the quarter-mile in x compared to x+2 at the local dragstrip. Made a handling change? Show how it gets you around a local track 3 seconds quicker, or show how it makes tire wear more even, or show how it physically allows more lean angle. If you have done none of these things, that doesn't mean that whatever changes were made didn't help the performance of the bike. But it sure doesn't mean that the changes helped the performance one iota either. Now cosmetic mods, we all are going to have different opinions, and that's a good thing. For example, I've heard there are some people on this board who actually believe green is an attractive color on a motorcycle. __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

April 2nd, 2009, 07:46 PM	#5
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	I agree in full with your entire post (#4). Where I think we may start to partially disagree is when I start to see posts like: - the bike is unrideable without this change - the bike really wakes up with this change - the bike feels smoother with this change with the intention of convincing someone else to make whatever those changes are. In the extreme, I saw someone on this board blame their crash because the stock throttle response was such, and they wouldn't have crashed if they had made a minor change prior to that. (completely glossing over the point that they had 500 total miles of motorcycling experience at that point) All of that is B.S. I love that forums like this exist, heck I created one! But if someone simply wasn't exposed to some of the changes you can find up here and elsewhere (imagine the internet didn't exist), they could and likely would be utterly happy and content with their bike for years and years. What that means to me is that if we ever find ourselves saying "you need to go do this right away, as it really improves something that's basically broken on your stock bike", perhaps we should step back and figure out if that's truly the case. __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

April 2nd, 2009, 08:31 PM	#8
Apex Livin' the Minimoto Life Name: Mark Location: Riding around in TX Join Date: Mar 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2022 Honda Navi, 2018 Z-125 Pro Posts: A lot.	Reading the fine print on my RS3 exhaust, it stated that you shouldn't even need to re-jet the bike afterwards. I've been keeping an eye on the tailpipe. If it starts to run lean, it should get a blue hue on it. Nothing as of yet. So I know the Yoshi RS3 exhaust is just to increase noise, which is why I got it. But that doesn't count. I do plan on going with flushmounts (a little less drag), new clip ons, and new tires. In the looks department, I'm going to go with a more racing inspired graphics package, and lose the flames on the side. The flames bug me. After that I plan on racing it (running track days) and will upgrade the suspension only when I think I need it. I feel sometimes it is best to learn with sub-par equipment, it shows your weaknesses more. It lets you know when you really do something wrong, while I'm learning at the track, I need all the feedback I can get. Lets not forget it will show me what I "need" to upgrade vs doing blind mods. I do plan on upgrading the front rotors to petal-type rotors, new and better pads, and SS brake lines. I'm not about power increase, but more of enhancing the experience on my little 250. I almost sold it this week, but I think I'm going to keep it. I can't just bring myself to ditching it. My opinion on the modification part is that bike manufactures don't make bikes that everyone just loves. Right now the two bikes in the Kawasaki lineup that I really like are the 650R and 250R. The others are just sub par looks-wise. So if I did want the power of the 600 or zx10, I'd have to do something that made the bike look eye appealing to me. That may be new graphics, new plastics or whatever. __________________________________________________ --- My IG Page --- My FB page! --- 2022 Honda Navi && 2018 Z-125 Pro

April 3rd, 2009, 08:11 PM	#14
Purspeed ninjette.org guru Name: Purspeed Location: Los Angeles, CA Join Date: Nov 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: 469	People want a project. People enjoy a bit of struggle. __________________________________________________ "This is my Ninja. There are many like it, but this one is mine..." ~ Purspeed (ca. Nov, 2008)

April 2nd, 2009, 07:22 PM	#2
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	The bikes are designed with a mythical target rider that needs to conform to certain emissions controls to be legally sold by the manufactures. (all bikes are) Think of them as blank canvases for each owner to paint their version of what the bike should be. Some will leave it stock and enhance the touring capabilities, others will use them to race, while still others will pimp their ride out to look good for the Saturday night bike get together. I feel if the respective owners like what they've done to their bikes, what does it matter? People will mod anything, so why would an entry level bike with potential to be a lot more be any different?

April 2nd, 2009, 07:41 PM	#4
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	what difference does it make if the owners are happy with the changes? It's not my bike... why should I care what the next person puts on their bike? I do what I do for me... not for anyone else here. If I'm happy with the results, that's all that really counts. If no one changed anything, this forum wouldn't exist.

April 2nd, 2009, 07:49 PM	#6
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	oh... come on... go shim your needles already!

April 2nd, 2009, 08:10 PM	#7
M-Oorb ninjette.org sage Name: Matt Location: South East Florida/Rutgers University Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r (Fastest Color) Posts: 914	I'm gunna have to agree with you both a little bit here. This is the first bike I've ever owned and first bike I ever rode...so basically I knew nothing about motor cycles. I bought and rode the bike for about 6 months before I ever looked at a motorcycle forum. I knew before then that my rear fender was ugly,the bike seemed to rev higher than I wanted it to while cruising and it would seriously bog down when I jumped on the gas from idle. So it was easy for me when I joined this forum and I learned about mod that fixed things I already didn't like (comp werks eliminator,sprocket,shim needles) I then learned about mods I would never have thought of and after reading opinions and having a little ground basis to work from I attempted and liked(snorkel removel) I also learned about aesthtic mods I wouldn't of thought of that I liked and tried(xhaust hanger,db smoke wind screen,seat cowl) but ill agree a lot of people will just buy things to buy things cause thy think it will make there bike better(slip ons) what really gets me is people who buy full exhausts and other things before they even bought the bike and had a chanc to ride it! Posted via Mobile Device

April 3rd, 2009, 12:35 AM	#9
inbox526 ninjette.org member Name: Matt Location: Southern Cali Join Date: Feb 2009 Motorcycle(s): None yet Posts: 49	I personally mod because I enjoy the technical aspect of it. If it makes my riding experience so much better, then my money was well spent. Yea, I'd put an intercooler and turbo on my 250, cut and weld a new frame addition, slap on lighter wheels, redo the gas tank shape among other ridiculous things. Not for performance's sake alone, but rather because I'd like to work out this particular technical puzzle. okok maybe not the turbo. depends on how much i love this baby <3

April 3rd, 2009, 03:01 PM	#11
Bill N ninjette.org member Name: Bill Location: Tampa Fl Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 250 Ninja Posts: 180	SteveL wrote my response for me concerning performance. If one is interested in track/drag strip performance go for the max. It's a challenge to get the most you can out of this little beast or any other motorcycle. I agree with going for what turns you on cosmetically as that can be creative and make the bike unique. But hey if I wanted more street performance, I'd buy a bigger bike and be done with it. Having said all that I'm fine with anybody doing whatever that makes them enjoy the bike more. Cheers, Bill..a youngster at age 61

April 3rd, 2009, 06:46 PM	#13
Sailariel ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Alex Location: Belfast, ME Join Date: Jul 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Honda NT-700-V, formerly, Green 2008 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.	Thank you for all the different views. I had no problem with the Ninja`s performance, I also was sold on how quiet the bike was. I really had no choice in the colour, because it was the only bike left in the state. I have acquired a taste for Green. My choice would have been black and yellow (which was unavailable) or Red. The first thing that struck me about the bike was that the rear view mirrors were useless. I swapped them out for a longer stalk mirror--a pair from a Z6R with blind spot mirrors applied. I changed windscreens to a ZG Sport Touring so that the wind doesn`t beat me up too bad. I also added a set of fog lights because here in Coastal Maine, fog is a frequent weather condition one must deal with. I did change over to synthetic oil after the bike was properly broken in, I still may change my directional, tail and brake light, and fog lights to LED, but that is not a priority, My headlights were changed to the stronger Xenon lights. I am currently looking for a water temperature guage that I can install and not have it look like an add on, I have been able to adapt the bike so that I can ride farther under more conditions. I don`t think that any engine or gearing modifications are in the offing,

April 4th, 2009, 08:53 AM	#15
M-Oorb ninjette.org sage Name: Matt Location: South East Florida/Rutgers University Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250r (Fastest Color) Posts: 914	As for the people who said if you want more speed get a bigger bike...there's a huge difference between a 600 and a 250 with an exhaust and some carb tuning. I don't think anyone who does these mods is expecting to acheive 600 results. But if you look at say area p's dynos the power band is much more linear and you get more power in places where some believe the bike needs it. And to some people tuning is a hobby...they take pleasure in the work. I can honestly say that I get enjoyment working on my bike. And to be a little cliche...the journey is sometimes more fun than the end. Posted via Mobile Device

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