Ninja Electrical Problems/Won't Start

[kdogg2077]

I'm in the process of trying to get my ninja started after the winter. Problem is, when I connect the battery I get not thing from the dash and the bike won't start either. This battery was placed on a trickle charger over the winter. If I put it on the trickle charger now it reads full charge after about twenty minutes. I left it on for about 6 hours yesterday and then attached it to the bike today but still got no power to the dash.

Today I also checked the main fuse box and each fuse visually. Everything looked fine. I checked the solenoid 30 as well with no luck.

Could something have happened to the battery even though I charged it over the winter? Is there a cable that could be unplugged somewhere? The bike has no fairings on it now except the nose fairing. The front turn signals are disconnected.

This bike was lowsided last fall but it ran fine after the accident and it started fine as late as December.

[Motofool]

If you have a voltmeter:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_to_...attery_is_dead

You could try a car battery in good condition (car engine must be off).

[jkv45]

A battery can show "fully charged" but drop to unusable levels when under load.

Check the voltage after it has been off the charger for an hour or two - a fully charged 12V batter reads 12.6-7V.

When under load (cranking) it should still hold near 12.0V.

A battery or auto store can check it with a load tester, or you can hook a volt meter up to it and watch the reading change when you hit the button.

[kdogg2077]

Originally Posted by jkv45

A battery can show "fully charged" but drop to unusable levels when under load.

Check the voltage after it has been off the charger for an hour or two - a fully charged 12V batter reads 12.6-7V.

When under load (cranking) it should still hold near 12.0V.

A battery or auto store can check it with a load tester, or you can hook a volt meter up to it and watch the reading change when you hit the button.

I just took the battery to Walmart and had them test it. It had been off the charger for around 10 hours or so. It gave out a charge of 12.69 volts.

This charger is off a 2012 bike.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

I just took the battery to Walmart and had them test it. It had been off the charger for around 10 hours or so. It gave out a charge of 12.69 volts.

This charger is off a 2012 bike.

Standing voltage is only half of the story. It needs to be tested under load to know if it's good.

[kdogg2077]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Standing voltage is only half of the story. It needs to be tested under load to know if it's good.

How do you test the battery under load? I took it to autozone but they said they could test a bike battery.

[kdogg2077]

Well my local bike store says my battery is dead. They say the cells won't hold a charge. I bought a new battery from them so I hoping they were messing with me.

[kdogg2077]

*weren't messing with me that is.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

Well my local bike store says my battery is dead. They say the cells won't hold a charge. I bought a new battery from them so I hoping they were messing with me.

How did they determine that? It really needs a load test to determine if it is bad.

"Holding a charge" is usually used to describe proper voltage after charging and sitting - your battery does that if it read 12.69V after 10 hours off the charger.

I think the battery may be bad, but their description of the problem doesn't seem to be correct based on the other readings.

[kdogg2077]

They took the battery in the back, where I could not see, and tested it. They said the cells would not hold a charge if I remember right.

Could they not have tested it under a load there?

I'll be PO'd if I think they BSed me.

We'll see if my bike starts up or not. I bought a new battery and it is charging now.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

They took the battery in the back, where I could not see, and tested it. They said the cells would not hold a charge if I remember right.

Could they not have tested it under a load there?

I'll be PO'd if I think they BSed me.

We'll see if my bike starts up or not. I bought a new battery and it is charging now.

They could have load tested it, but I would say their description of the problem wouldn't be correct.

Charge it for 8 to 10 hours before installing it.

You should have your answer shortly...

[kdogg2077]

Originally Posted by jkv45

They could have load tested it, but I would say their description of the problem wouldn't be correct.

Charge it for 8 to 10 hours before installing it.

You should have your answer shortly...

I'll be out here at 10pm tonight seeing if I got hosed...

[DEFY]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

I'll be out here at 10pm tonight seeing if I got hosed...

You probably didn't get hosed. As a hobby I play with LiPo batteries and the term cells(multiple batteries daisy chained) not holding a charge refers to the chemicals in the battery being unable to react to create the current draw you need to run your electrical system.

[linkinpark9812]

I'm sure they load tested it. The guy testing it probably doesn't know everything about electrical/batteries so he might have gotten the terminology right.

If you load test and there is a voltage sag that is past specifications, it generally means one or more cells are bad. This is assuming the the standing voltage is around 12.3-12.6V (fully or near full charged). This means that a cell isn't doing its work (which is about 2V, since there is 6 cells in a battery usually). A bad cell won't hold a charge very long and/or not much of a charge. With no load, it may look OK, but when a load is put on it, it's voltage falls dramatically.

Not sure what kind of load a load tester puts on, but it is probably a CCA or CA type test, but probably not as long, since it is just to see if the battery's cells are ok and not approving it for a certain CCA or CA rating. (Btw, CCA is cold cranking amps and CA is cranking amps. The new gen ninja's CCA I believe is around 100-120 amps.)

[kdogg2077]

Well the new battery got no response out of the bike just like the old battery. That doesn't mean the old battery was good but who knows now.

So something is wrong other than the battery. I should have guessed that when I got no response at all from the bike before. Even with a dying battery there would have likely been some response.

Well it's not the battery and doesn't seem to be the fuses. Any ideas what to check next?

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I don't know much about electronics/mechanics but this new bike is giving me an education.

[silentIm]

First, turn on your light. Is it on? Then the battery may be okay. Main fuse 30A is certainly okay. Try to start, how does your starter motor sound? Is it sounds normal or slow? If slow noise frequency than usual, then it's the battery. If there is no sound, then may be it's ignition fuse. Or your ignition switch goes bad. Or your starter motor goes bad, dew inside your starter motor may shortcircuit the motor winding. If the sound is normal, then it's your carb, or your sparkplugs.

[subxero]

check, double, check, triple check all your various plugs, fuses. Anything you have removed and replaced since last time it was turned on needs to be checked.

Look for a wire diagram that tells you the path from battery to the starter, and tach ect...

[linkinpark9812]

Here is a color wiring diagram I made.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...0&postcount=30

So when you turn the key to on, does the dash even light up? If not, since you said you checked all of the fuses in the fuse box, you might want to check the main 30A fuse, located with the starter relay/solenoid.

[allanoue]

Can you make a quick and dirty vid of what is going on and show the kickstand is up also?

[dcj13]

Does the bike go "chud-chud-chud-...-etc." when you press the starter button? Or have we made it that far yet?

[jkv45]

We need to know more about what it does and doesn't do - do the lights come on?

Do the lights go off when you hit the starter?

Does it spin over at all? Does the battery voltage change when you try to start it?

If it does none of the above, and the new battery reads 12.6V, I would check all of the connections - the grounds and the connections running from the positive side of the battery all the way to the starter.

[subxero]

it does nothing. Kick stand does not matter for tach to light up.

There is no visible power anywhere. OP recently had a crash, bike ran after the low side with no issues. Some pieces were disassembled, battery removed for winter, bike dropped off at dealer to fix front master cylinder and new brake fluid & bleed. One or both of the stock bars were removed and all attached switches components ect..., side fairings removed, front nose fender removed.

I believe front nose fender is back on, all bars are back on with pieces. When battery is put back in there is seemingly no power anywhere, dash does not light up, and would seem day time running light is not on either, when starter is pushed nothing...absolutely nothing.

It is my thought that another safety switch, plug or fuse is bad/not connected. OP needs to simply go through things and check them off a list and check them twice, it is going to be something stupid that was missed and not connected. JMO

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by subxero

it is going to be something stupid that was missed and not connected. JMO

Because it has been crashed and is partially assembled, I'm also thinking something isn't connected or a wire has been severed.

Start tracing wires and checking connectors.

[linkinpark9812]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Because it has been crashed and is partially assembled, I'm also thinking something isn't connected or a wire has been severed.

Start tracing wires and checking connectors.

ALL power that powers anything on the bike, besides the starter motor, is ran from the battery to the ignition switch (where the key goes). I believe there is a harness for it to connect it to.

Here is a picture from the service manual. Connector 16 is the ignition switch connector (First image) The more "life like" second image, the zoomed in 16 and 17 is the connector. If you can get to it and you see it is connected, try to test the wires with a multimeter. The White and White/Black wires should show the battery voltage no matter if the ignition is on or off (as long as battery is connected). If it doesn't, its probably the main 30A fuse.

If it does, try to turn the ignition switch to the ON position. Now test all of the other wires on the harness (except the gray one, which is a security wire) and they should all have battery voltage. These are all BEFORE the fuse box (but after the main 30 A fuse), so these should now have power regardless if the fuses in the box are good or not. If they do not, then at this point, everything points to the ignition switch being bad.

If they do have power and all of the fuses in the fuse box are good, test to make sure 100%. There should be two small metal dots on each fuse, one for each prong. Test both prongs on all fuses. They should all have power when the ignition switch is on. If the fuse does, it should be good. If only one side has voltage and the other doesn't, then the fuse is probably bad or there is something wrong with that wire between the fuse box and ignition switch. If neither do, then it definitely is a wire problem between the ignition switch and fuse box.

If all fuses are good, then it has to be a wiring issue between the fuse box and to whatever device it goes to, for example the ignition fuse that turns on the IC igniter or the dash lights. If so, I bet someone forgot to connect a harness.

Btw, for all of this if using a multimeter, you put the red probe to the wire you are testing and the black one to a ground spot (any unpainted metal part on the frame is fine, as well as unpainted screws that screw INTO the frame). You can test to make sure a ground is good by putting the black probe to the ground you want to test and the red to the + on the battery to see if you get a good voltage. If you do, its a good ground.

Also by what the pics are showing, I'm not sure if there is a place to stick the multimeter in the back of the connector for testings. You really can't test it if they aren't connected. If you can't get to testing the ignition switch, just do the fuse step I mentioned above with the ignition switch on and connected. If there is no power, then it is either something from the battery to ignition switch or from ignition switch to fuse box.

Hope this helps!

[jkv45]

^ Good post!

That should help him a lot with troubleshooting.

[kdogg2077]

Ok guys thanks with all the stuff so far. I'll try to go through all this one by one. The diagrams especially.

I shot two quick videos of the bike.

Solenoid video

Overall look at the bike

[kdogg2077]

Originally Posted by linkinpark9812

ALL power that powers anything on the bike, besides the starter motor, is ran from the battery to the ignition switch (where the key goes). I believe there is a harness for it to connect it to.

Here is a picture from the service manual. Connector 16 is the ignition switch connector (First image) The more "life like" second image, the zoomed in 16 and 17 is the connector. If you can get to it and you see it is connected, try to test the wires with a multimeter. The White and White/Black wires should show the battery voltage no matter if the ignition is on or off (as long as battery is connected). If it doesn't, its probably the main 30A fuse.

If it does, try to turn the ignition switch to the ON position. Now test all of the other wires on the harness (except the gray one, which is a security wire) and they should all have battery voltage. These are all BEFORE the fuse box (but after the main 30 A fuse), so these should now have power regardless if the fuses in the box are good or not. If they do not, then at this point, everything points to the ignition switch being bad.

If they do have power and all of the fuses in the fuse box are good, test to make sure 100%. There should be two small metal dots on each fuse, one for each prong. Test both prongs on all fuses. They should all have power when the ignition switch is on. If the fuse does, it should be good. If only one side has voltage and the other doesn't, then the fuse is probably bad or there is something wrong with that wire between the fuse box and ignition switch. If neither do, then it definitely is a wire problem between the ignition switch and fuse box.

If all fuses are good, then it has to be a wiring issue between the fuse box and to whatever device it goes to, for example the ignition fuse that turns on the IC igniter or the dash lights. If so, I bet someone forgot to connect a harness.

Btw, for all of this if using a multimeter, you put the red probe to the wire you are testing and the black one to a ground spot (any unpainted metal part on the frame is fine, as well as unpainted screws that screw INTO the frame). You can test to make sure a ground is good by putting the black probe to the ground you want to test and the red to the + on the battery to see if you get a good voltage. If you do, its a good ground.

Also by what the pics are showing, I'm not sure if there is a place to stick the multimeter in the back of the connector for testings. You really can't test it if they aren't connected. If you can't get to testing the ignition switch, just do the fuse step I mentioned above with the ignition switch on and connected. If there is no power, then it is either something from the battery to ignition switch or from ignition switch to fuse box.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for the diagram and all this. As soon as I pick up a multimeter I'll start checking cables.

[linkinpark9812]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

Thanks for the diagram and all this. As soon as I pick up a multimeter I'll start checking cables.

Sounds good. That connecter for the ignition seems to only be accesable when removing the tank (probably to prevent tampering/hot wiring).

I would just do the fuse test stuff I mentioned first and if you get nothing at all from there with the ignition on, then I would go check the ignition switch out. I should have switched the order.

Good luck! Hopefully it is something simple.

[kdogg2077]

Ha ha funny you should say that.

After looking at your diagram I did see that the main power line runs below the tank. The one place I couldn't really see to check. So I went out side and removed the tank. Sure enough the main line was disconnected. I'm not sure when that happened. I had been tinkering with the bike and it did go in for some break repairs.


Sure enough the bike got power immediately after I connected that main line to the ignition. Dash, lights, signals. I tried to fire the bike up. The engine turns over when I hit the starter but dies as soon as I let off the starter. Giving it some choke didn't help. It is 26 degrees outside and bike has been out in semi protected cold for 3 months. I expected some issues.

One step forward two steps back.

[alex.s]

i hear starting fluid can help with that

[kdogg2077]

It's supposed to get warmer later in the week. If I still have no luck I might try some of the things listed here.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/My_bike...get_it_started

[subxero]

did you prime the carburetor?

[kdogg2077]

Didn't do anything to the carburetor. Do you mean the prime switch below the gas tank?

I did drain the carbs before I put the bike away.

[Racer x]

If you turn on the key and nothing happens. No light on the dash then I would go to the starter solenoid. Test first the big cables that feed from the battery. Then test voltage going through the 30 amp fuse. Then if you have voltage there keep moving to the bar switch and ignition switch. Do you know how to test a Diode?

[kdogg2077]

Originally Posted by Racer x

If you turn on the key and nothing happens. No light on the dash then I would go to the starter solenoid. Test first the big cables that feed from the battery. Then test voltage going through the 30 amp fuse. Then if you have voltage there keep moving to the bar switch and ignition switch. Do you know how to test a Diode?

I did finally get things sorted out. The main line connecting the battery to the ignition switch was unplugged.

Just a dumb oversight. I kept looking at the bike but couldn't see that one cable because the tank was in the way.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

Didn't do anything to the carburetor. Do you mean the prime switch below the gas tank?

I did drain the carbs before I put the bike away.

yes, turn the valve to the prime setting for a few seconds then turn it back to the "on" position then try and start the bike and you should be good to go.

[kdogg2077]

Originally Posted by subxero

yes, turn the valve to the prime setting for a few seconds then turn it back to the "on" position then try and start the bike and you should be good to go.

Excellent, I love easy fixes.