brake lines help!

[yogurtpooh]

Hi. I rode my 2009 ninja today for the first time and the rear brakes lost pressure. I had my foot on the rear brake a lot because of traffic and I came from riding a bike with rear drums. It was fine for the first 15 minutes, then I almost crashed. But either way, I think it feels okay again now.
But I wanted to replace the front and rear lines and don't want which exact part to get. here http://www.kawasakipartshouse.com/oe...x250j9fa-parts

if anyone can help me, I would greatly appreciated it.

i also do not want steel lines because I brake frequently because I live in Vietnam with some crazy ass traffic and I don't want to lock up the wheels because im a pretty noobie rider.

Thanks

[Roark]

1. Are you sure it's the brake lines at fault? Check your calipers and reservoir for leaks. Try to flush the lines and bleed your brakes. If it bleeds smoothly through the lines, then you know it's not the lines! Very simple.

2. I've never noticed a huge difference in brake lock-up with stainless lines.. An hour or two practicing with it, and any difference at all will be mastered pretty easily. Master the added braking strength, and you'll be thanking yourself in congested Vietnam.

3. If you're still looking to replace the lines, someone else here will chime in.. Not exactly sure what part you need, either!

[yogurtpooh]

I'm just scared to use steel brake lines because I've been riding for three years on 150cc motorcycles with rear drums and you constantly have to ride the brakes. I even think that it's quite possible for me to freak out and mash the brakes and then I'll flip over. I don't even go that fast anyways in Vietnam- I doubt I'll ever reach 6th gear. most of the time, I'll top out at 45 miles an hour and might hit 50 late at night or something... rarely. But in Vietnam, as you might know, the traffic is crazy, people with families on their scooters do crazy things that requires me to potentially slam on my brakes, and steel brake lines might cause more of an issue. I read somewhere where people said that rear steel brake lines caused their wheels to lock and stuff.

The switch over from drums to the ninjas brakes have been difficult. the rear is quite sensitive already for me.
Then again, I'm going to be riding the brakes a lot- i wouldn't want it to feel like crap after a long ride.

i just rode my bike again for a few minutes and the rear brakes feel perfectly fine. Maybe I don't have to replace the rear lines? I won't get a chance to bleed it and test it out until tomorrow afternoon. Then I can proceed from there. I'll know tomorrow because i'll take it for a long drive in the morning. I can't wait. it's a very fun bike to ride, no doubt.

Could it be something simple like the brake fluids needing to be replaced?

mechanics don't know much about these bikes in Vietnam, so any ideas on what I should be looking out for? The bike is pretty old at around 16,000 miles.
Does that mean I should replace the lines anyways?

[Ghostt]

Ok first of all braided steel lines won't cause you all the problems you think they will, they will increase brake feedback, and that's about it.

You need to meticulously inspect your brakes, it sounds like brake fade to me, due to the pads couldn't handle the heat. While using the rear brake is fine, it's not meant to do all the stopping, that's the front brakes job. You need to get comfortable with your front brake, and don't be scared of using it.

When the time has come to do the brakes, I would rebuild the calipers, use HH pads, replace/flush the brake fluid, and get stainless steel braided brake lines. And if needed replace the rotors with either a wave/Vee style or a floating disc for the front.

While this might sound a bit extreme, just remember what's your safety and health worth??

Look at EBC brakes for all your braking system needs.

http://ebcbrakes.com/products/motorcycle/

Brake lines,

http://www.venhillusa.com/products.html

http://www.spieglerusa.com/brakes.html

[yogurtpooh]

What are some reasons why the brakes would fade from heat? With only about 15 minutes of riding though?

In the meantime, because I don't have access to stainless steel brake lines yet,
would you recommend just trying to replace the rear fluid and bleeding the brakes? If there was air trapped inside, why would it work perfectly again?

is a bike at 16,000 miles supposed to have all of these issues?

What else should I consider buying and replacing aside from the brake lines, oil filter, air filter? ( I just replaced the clutch cable today and will replace the throttle cables tomorrow)

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by yogurtpooh

What are some reasons why the brakes would fade from heat? With only about 15 minutes of riding though?

In the meantime, because I don't have access to stainless steel brake lines yet,
would you recommend just trying to replace the rear fluid and bleeding the brakes? If there was air trapped inside, why would it work perfectly again?

is a bike at 16,000 miles supposed to have all of these issues?

Inspect the brake line for visible signs of wear, cracking etc..... I doubt that's your issue

I believe your issue might be cheap pads, and a dirty caliper.

Remove and disassemble the caliper and clean the cups, and grease the pins

Here is the write up, hope this helps,

Caliper Service

Many folks have posted here with a Varity of front brake problems. Many of which are attributable to the lack of proper maintenance. Here’s how you can always have a brake like when your bike was new.

A short list of the problems and the causes.

Soft lever or lever goes to the bar.

The usual cause is the pistons are pushed too far back into the caliper by a flexing a warped, coned, disc. Using up too much piston travel before the disc is pinched.

Juddering in sync with wheel rotation.

The disc is worn, and its thickness varies. This causes the caliper to “sink” into the thin part and when the thick part comes around, it gets wedged into a smaller space causing a tightening of the brake. Then the tight spot passes through and it like the brake is released. Then repeat, repeat.

Cupped, coned, or warped disc.

Unfortunately this is a common problem with EX’s the cause is the disc is stretched in the center due to being rigidly bolted to the wheel. The huge force of braking is transmitted to the wheel through the webbed center of the disc which gets stretched and becomes larger than the space it occupies in the center of the disc. This causes the center to push to the side trying to find room for itself. Resulting is a cone shaped disc.

Soft lever 2

The caliper has pistons only on one side, so as the pads wear the caliper must shift sideways apply even pressure on both sides of the disc. To allow this the caliper floats on two pins. If these pins get dry (no grease) dirty or bent. The caliper won’t center itself and bends the disc to wherever it is. This take up lever travel and when released pushes the pistons further back than necessary. If not fixed will eventually destroy the disc (warp it).


Ok how to prevent all of the above.

When new pad time comes around, resist the temptation to just pop in new one and go. Every time you must do these things.

Remove caliper disassemble and clean it.

Clean and re grease the sliding pins.

Polish the caliper pistons to remove dirt. If you just push the pistons back into the caliper leaks will result. Or binding.

Tools required: 12 mm socket, 8mm open end wrench, 3” or bigger C clamp, a supply of new bake fluid. Wire brush and or steel wool.

Remove the caliper from the fork leg but leave the brake line on.

Remove the old pads and the mounting frame (the sliding pins)

Remove the cover from the Master Cylinder on the Handel bar.

Attach the C clamp to one of the pistons but don’t squeeze it. Pump the lever on the bar slowly to push out the other piston almost all the way. Put the C clamp on that piston and push out the other one.

Remove both pistons by hand.

Remove all the rubber part from the caliper, the seals are in the grooves in the caliper and dull pointed thingy will get them out easy.

Disconnect the caliper from the brake line.

Soak all the rubber parts in new clean brake fluid ONLY!!!!! Rub them with you fingers till as clean as new.

The caliper can be cleaned with a wire brush or even a Moto tool for the internal grooves, NOW’s the time to paint it if you wish.

Polish the pistons till they are smooth and shinny. They are chrome plated. If any of the plating is chipped or damaged below the dust cap groove. Replace it.

The master cylinder is the subject of another write up and we’ll assume it in good working order here.

If you suspect your disc is bad, your bets bet is to replace it with an after market one fro EBC or Galpher.

Don’t remove the disc unless you intend to replace it. It will assume a new shape if it is stressed and will not be flat again. You can try to check its condition by placing a straight edge across the face of the pad swept area looking for any distortion.

Re assembly

Take the nice clean rubber seals and install them into the caliper then the Dust covers.
Wet all the rubber with new clean brake fluid and partially fill the caliper with new fluid.

Push the pistons though the dust seals and into the caliper body until the dust covers snap into the grooves.

Fill the MC with new fluid and pump the lever while holding the Line above the MC till clean fluid flows.

Connect the line to the caliper while holding it above the MC.

Pump the lever with the bleeder valve open till fluid flow from the bleeder. Hold the caliper so that the bleeder is the highest point.

Close the bleeder and pump more fluid into the caliper but don’t push the pistons all the way out.

Then squeeze the pistons all the way back in and install the new pads.

Re grease the slider pins and assemble the dust seals and re mount the caliper on the forks but leave the bolts loose.

Now clamp the caliper to the disc with the brake lever.

Look at the space between the fork lugs and the caliper, clamp and release a few times as you tighten the bolts by hand. It one lug touches much before the other the odds are you mounting bracket is bent. You can straighten it. After you get it the best you can. Some shim washers made from alum can stock can be fitted to the loose side.
What we are doing here is trying to mina muse the bedd in time and gets the best pad life.

Ok with everything tight you should be through, Notice we don’t need to bleed the brakes, but if you screwed up in any of the above steps, you might do that here.

Care full to Bedd in the new pads gently. Too much pressure too soon will burn the pad material as only a small area will be gripping at first. You also won’t have full braking power till the pads are fully familiar with the disc.

[yogurtpooh]

Thank you. I will have my mechanic look at it tomorrow.
I also got new brake pads that I will install tomorrow too.

btw, if the lines are fine, then maybe I don't really need to replace them? The rear braking and front brakes work fine to me because I came from a bike with much inferior stoppage power. I also don't ride faster than 50 miles an hour (because of traffic) so that's another reason why I didn't see a strong need for steel brake lines. But if you recommend it, i might as well get them.
The bike is 2009 though at 16,000 miles.

[Ghostt]

As I recommend servicing the calipers is VERY IMPORTANT!!!, all the new pads, discs, lines in the world won't mean nothing if the caliper is not working perfectly.

[yogurtpooh]

thanks for the help.
I'll get the calipers cleaned.

Any ideas on why my bike won't start in gear with the clutch held in and the kickstand up?
Thanks

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by yogurtpooh

thanks for the help.
I'll get the calipers cleaned.

Any ideas on why my bike won't start in gear with the clutch held in and the kickstand up?
Thanks

Safety feature, putting the bike in neutral anyway it's a good idea.

Also check the safety switches, one on the clutch handle, and the side stand, one might be stuck, or broken.

SS lines is not the cure all answer to faulty brakes, it's usually caused by poor caliper/disc condition. the brake system is notorious for binding slider pins that warp the disc. this warp or coning of the disc is what causes the long travel of the lever as the disc must be bent straight before it can be clamped properly for hard braking.
This longer travel is caused by the disc retiring to it coned condition which pushes the pucks back too far into the caliper.
You must get a flat disc and replace the pads after to clean and re lube the slider pins. Then bed in the new pads to get a good brake. The SS line alone will do little or nothing.

[yogurtpooh]

turned out the caliper seized up and was really messed up
so im going to upgrade to some Nissan ones. Thanks.

and it was the clutch switch, everything works great now.
Just have to wait on the rear brakes. I don't think I have to change the lines, they are working just fine. thanks.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by yogurtpooh

turned out the caliper seized up and was really messed up
so im going to upgrade to some Nissan ones. Thanks.

and it was the clutch switch, everything works great now.
Just have to wait on the rear brakes. I don't think I have to change the lines, they are working just fine. thanks.

Glad to hear a happy ending, how Is the disc?

Out of curiosity why the caliper upgrade?

[yogurtpooh]

I'm back at square one. My mechanic was not knowledgable at all. I'll take it to another guy tomorrow.

Saga continues. The bike is so fun.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by yogurtpooh

I'm back at square one. My mechanic was not knowledgable at all. I'll take it to another guy tomorrow.

Saga continues. The bike is so fun.

Why not try doing yourself, the caliper cleaning/rebuilding is not that difficult just follow the instructions I provided.

[yogurtpooh]

I don't have the tools or the parts.
I live in a building where they are pretty strict about working on your cars or bikes too. I'll try to take it to a motorcycle specific mechanic tomorrow. this guy was just full of crap.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by yogurtpooh

I don't have the tools or the parts.
I live in a building where they are pretty strict about working on your cars or bikes too. I'll try to take it to a motorcycle specific mechanic tomorrow. this guy was just full of crap.

I hear you, too bad your on the other side of the world, otherwise someone close might be able to give you a hand.

Good luck, and Keep us up to date

[yogurtpooh]

Yeah, it's seriously annoying dealing with mechanics over here. You don't really know who you can trust. I've been with this guy for two years, and I've helped him out so much. but today was the last straw. He said the bike was ready and I came to pick it up and it felt exactly the same. the pedal was spongy and I told him and he said it'll be fine after a few days. When I started riding the brake felt better, but no bite whatsoever and thus no stopping power whatsoever. Luckily, I live close to another shop that specializes in bigger displacement bikes... and anything above 175cc is considered big over here. I could really trust my mechanic not to rip me off, but this guy is a complete fool. My headlights were working, and now they stopped working because of him. I can't give him hell because he has to help sell my old bike...
but once that's through, I'm done with him.

[alex.s]

you got used to making sacrifices on your old 150 piece of crap. forget those sacrifices on the ninja. use your front brake. don't ride either brake when applying gas. riding the brake while applying power will heat the brake up. doing it nonstop will overheat it. if you have **** brake fluid, it will boil and you'll lose compression pressure.

[yogurtpooh]

But the traffic in Vietnam, but you have to ride the brakes during rush hour because you have thousands of scooters, animals, kids on bikes, vendors, drunk foos, families on a moped riding in the opposite direction in your way. People will text and ride their scooters here. It's constant stop and go stop and go. it's fun when it rains too.

But with that being said, I'm definitely going to use the front brake more often and the rear brakes a lot less. It'll take time to adjust.
Btw, Vietnam traffic is crazy.



david beckham came to Vietnam and snapped this photo of this lady and her baby.

[alex.s]

this photo is totally awesome... driving one handed with a baby between the legs, looking to the side taking a photo with the cellphone... amazing! haha