Can I get another set of eyes on this?

[headshrink]

I apologize for any cross-posting, but I am trying to get this issue resolved before work in the morning, and am afraid the issue is buried to deeply in another thread.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=56322

My issue starts at post #39, with pictures in #40 & #41

[scotty]

Wow, looks as your pads are falling apart! I'm not sure how you got grooves into the pads. Are you sure everything is lined up right? You torqed down the rotor in a star pattern? (prevent warpping, not sure if it matters or not)

[scotty]

"I just received both a front (MD4162C), and a rear (MD4163C)EBC brake rotor for my '08 Ninja 250. Each rotor was purchased from a different vendor, due to availability, and they both have what I consider a significant amount of metal burs in virtually every hole and slot (Pictures available upon request). This not only looks poor, but I am concerned about getting burs between my pads and rotors, which would not only hurt braking ability, it would also destroy the rotors.

Is this normal for EBC rotors, and should I be concerned?

Thank you."


Do you have pictures of this?

[headshrink]

Yes, I did torque properly, and in a star pattern. I posted a picture of the rotor in #33

The picture shows the rear, but the front looked about the same....
I cleaned it up a little with a file, but didn't want to mess with it too much.

[scotty]

Aw, got it. Maybe you had some of that stuff get in between the break and rotor and cause all the damage and noise that you were hearing? Personally, I would have sent that back. somethng wasn't right.

[headshrink]

Yeah.... the general consensus before I installed it was that it would be OK.... I also waited soooo long while the rear was on back-order, I think I really wanted to hear it was OK. One of the retailers was from Amazon, so I don't know if I can return it.... The EBC contact web form doesn't seem to be working. Think this might be my last EBC purchase.

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by headshrink

Yes, I did torque properly, and in a star pattern. I posted a picture of the rotor in #33

The picture shows the rear, but the front looked about the same....
I cleaned it up a little with a file, but didn't want to mess with it too much.

Thats some crazy stuff, Like they forgot a step.... To chamfer the holes.

[dubojr1]

Wow Bob... I'm at a loss of words here. I've been doing my own brakes for a number of years now and I have never seen nothing like this. Do you own a micrometer? Check those rotors to make sure they are not too thick. I'd double check part numbers on both the rotors and pads to make sure they are correct.

Those 2 mile looks like a few thousand. There is definitely something wrong here. I have included the specs below.

[headshrink]

Cheap Cycle parts.... now on the banned list.

They wouldn't entertain the idea of a return, because is was installed. Nor would they put me in contact with the manufactorer's rep.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by headshrink

Cheap Cycle parts.... now on the banned list.

They wouldn't entertain the idea of a return, because is was installed. Nor would they put me in contact with the manufactorer's rep.

I have had some issues when them also claiming they had parts but they were actually on backorder.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

I have had some issues when them also claiming they had parts but they were actually on backorder.

Yes, me too. However, the parts that were on backorder were I backorder pretty much everywhere. My only issue with them on this at the time was that I didn't find that out until AFTER I placed my order. If I didn't mention this, the rotor in question was ordered in Oct. and received in Dec.

[JMcDonald]

I won't be buying from them again either, due to lack-luster customer service as well. I didn't have any real problems, other than them acting like I was wasting their time by calling to add something to an existing order (that hadn't even shipped yet). I had no problem canceling that existing order, even though it meant having to buy all the parts from separate vendors and waiting longer for them to arrive.

[headshrink]

To bad they aren't a sponsor here... then at least there would be a little preasure to care.

[wyckedflesh]

Did you make sure that the brake calipers were fully depressed so that when you slid the caliper over the rotors, they were kind of loose? If not, its very possible, you have a caliper that is seizing and not releasing pressure on the new pads and rotors. Yes, its possible for both the front and rear calipers to be seizing at the same time if you live in adverse conditions.

EBC generally has both very good customer service and a very good product. Also, on those pads, it looks like you went with the metal matrix rather then the organic, which will make them bite harder and wear the rotor more, which will be amplified even more if you do have a caliper that is seizing.

Did you take fluid out of the master cylinder when you installed the new pads? the lines may also be over loaded with the excess fluid from topping up as your old pads wore, just a thought.

[headshrink]

I did it right. The rotors were F'ed up.

[headshrink]

Sorry wyckedflesh, I didn't mean to sound short.... was in a huge hurry and under pressure to get a lot of things done. I did check all the things you mentioned.

The only thing I may not have mentioned in this thread, is that I also switched to SS line up front at the same time I changed the pad and rotor..... so alllll the fluid was replaced. When my replacement OEM rotors come, I'll re-bleed. I was going to put the old rotors and pads back on until the new ones come, but my front brake has gotten worse, and bike is now in the stable until fixed.

Here is what I think is now wrong with it...
When I started to bleed the lines to switch to the SS line (technically I was emptying them, not bleeding), I forgot to pull the top from the master cylinder FIRST. I just went for it with my suction pump, until I realized I had to relieve the pressure at the top end. When I popped the top, I saw that the diaphragm was a little malformed. I'm unsure if this was from all the suction I put on it, or if it was already that way, but it wouldn't pop back to its original form (no tares that I could find). After adding DOT4 and bleeding (in which I couldn't 100% get rid of the bubbles), I had difficulty getting the diaphragm to seat properly. Thinking I finally got it on, when I eventually got the original old rotor/pads back on for temp use while I wait on FedEx, I squeezed the lever several times, and it was very slow to build up pressure. I heard a strange pop at the caliper (I think a loose pad may have been seating, and noise may have been from the anti-rattle spring... i hope), and I saw a small amount of fluid leak from under the master cylinder cover...... needles to say, a new diaphragm is on order along with the new rotors. Now I think the diaphragm issue was an additional issue, and not contributing to the bubbles I was seeing originally while bleeding, because during that step the top is off anyways..... breaking out the wallet for take x2. Will report.

[oroboros]

Curiouser and curiouser
Posted via Mobile Device

[wyckedflesh]

That small pop you heard was the caliper Piston popping free, the excess fluid was from the piston retracting further back into the caliper then it would when you bled the brakes.

The damage your seeing to the pad and rotor is from the pads dragging on the rotor, not because of a problem with either the pads or rotors, unless the thickness of the pads themselves is too thick for the application. If the caliper is seizing, then when you relax the pressure on the leaver, the piston in the caliper is not retracting, letting the friction of the rotor push the pad away from it enough to keep it from dragging.

Take the caliper off, take the pads out, slide a 3/8 inch thick piece of wood in between if you have enough room, you want enough room that the piston can slide out a bit, but not enough the piston falls out. pump the brakes and look at the pistons, do the move out smooth, or do the jerk and cock from side to side? Do they retract smoothly, or again jerk or cock side to side or not at all?

This is all stuff I learned the hard way, and having your front brake lock up and not let go while out on the road is not fun.

[headshrink]

I will try that.... at this point, might as well double check EVERYTHING. The EBC pads are a bit thicker than OEM. The EBC pads, measured ~4.66mm new. I don't have the specific OEM thickness in front of me, but IIRC it was about 4mm.... I think. I don't know if that is significant enough to be a problem or not.

I didn't feel either rotor drag any more than any other disk breaking system at rest that I have worked on. I could spin it freely by hand when on the stands. If I didn't mention before, I did NOT bleed the rear at this point, so unless you are just suspecting the pad/rotor combo was too thick, thus effectively too much fluid, that would eliminate a bleed error on my part, since the rear had the same issue... although it didn't pop, because I wasn't filling a dry line, etc.

I don't have the measurements of my EBC rotors on hand (at office now), but I have my log book, which is how I had the pad measurement.

I could be wrong on this, but I really do think the rotors were defective to begin with, even though I may have made the hydraulic system worse up front. If the rear was fine, I would be convinced it was all on me.... but the rear went together flawlessly (I didn't upgrade that line to SS like the front either). If I remember when I get home, I will try to get another picture showing the rotor damage, now that it is off the bike. You can see the burrs from the vent holes all over the surface of the rotor... this is what I believe caused the instantaneously horrid scouring... in spite of myself.

I appreciate your thoughts and experience... whether or not your theory proves true in this case, it will still all go into the learning curve of, "I learn, because I fix... after I broke trying to fix."

[wyckedflesh]

"I learn, because I fix... after I broke trying to fix."

I didn't fix it wrong, I just broke it better

Once on the ground, and after pumping the pressure up, the only reason you could have done that much damage in 2 miles is by the brakes dragging, and yes .66mm over could do that since combined between the two pads that makes it 1.32mm thicker then you need.

[headshrink]

Here are the new pics I promised...


In this one I am intending to show that burrs from the holes do indeed seem to have been drug across the surface of the rotor, badly scoring it. The burrs in the bottom two holes are very mean looking.



This picture illustrates how burrs contaminated the surface of the rotor. They didn't come out supper clear in the photo, but you can see them.


The next two pictures are AFTER I attempted to sand down the new pads to see if I can reuse them on the OEM rotors in the mail.... The arrow points at what I believe is a burr embedded in the pad.



I have to also correct a statement I made earlier.... the 4.66mm measurement was the front rotor, not the pad. But, you are correct in that is .06mm thicker than max spec. The pads themselves are also as fat as someone who drives a beat-up Geo Metro.

I am apprehensive about using the EBC pads pictured above.... based on the potential embedded burr in the photo, should I order new ones and call these a loss?

[spooph]

For future reference, the other side of the convo:
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...t=56322&page=2

[GiGs]

I had difficulty getting the diaphragm to seat properly

Not sure if this helps but I had the same problem in regards to getting the diaphragm seated (put on some EBC HH pads about 500KM ago, put in Moutl RBF 660 fluid about 300KM ago - no probs, stock rotors) until I realized that it sort of goes back into itself and makes a rectangle. Maybe you already knew that though...if so apologies.

Pads look pretty toast IMHO (if that was me i'd pay for new pads rather than new rotors again after effi'ng them up with bad pads like that). You'll get it sorted

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by GiGs

Not sure if this helps but I had the same problem in regards to getting the diaphragm seated. I realized that it sort of goes back into itself and makes a rectangle.

Funny, since I never posted a pic, nor was specific about this issue, but you nailed it. I figgured this out a couple days ago. Yes, the diaphram was pulled out from trying to suck it down through the brake line! And I thought it displaced a hell of a lot of fluid! When I received the new diaphram, I realized what an idiot I can be.... it had been a while since I had seen it from the last brake bleeding.

[HKr1]

Sure looks like the burrs screwed things up. I noticed you mention cheap parts not doing anything, I didnt notice you mention anythig about ebc. Did you send the pics and info to them??

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by HKr1

Sure looks like the burrs screwed things up. I noticed you mention cheap parts not doing anything, I didnt notice you mention anythig about ebc. Did you send the pics and info to them??

I haven't contacted them yet.... been swamped, but it is on my to-do list for today.

[headshrink]

I'm going to continue any ongoing conversation over at the main thread here. Sorry Alex if I made a mess of things...

One last comment to resolve before making the jump though....
wyckedflesh - Back to the popping I heard. I actually have a new theory based on what I found when I pulled the old pads out last night. These were the OLD pads, not the trashed EBC pads... I had put the old rotor/pad combo back on temp. but had the whole popping incident.

What I found was the pad that rests on the pistons were BENT at the retaining holes. I believe what may have happened was because my pistons were retracted so far, the pad was wayyy far from the rotor. Then I believe the pad got stuck, or was binding, on the retaining pins. So when I tried to close the brake, it bent the crap out of it! That isn't to say your theory didn't also happen though. One puzzling thing though.... it seems to have been bent in the opposite direction I would have thought... I could be wrong about that though. Oh well, things should be fixed now.