Downshifting for a right turn.

[clintalmighty]

So today was my second day out on the street, I still have work yet to do on my engine braking (quite a bit). However, I was approaching a right turn with a green light and I knew i had to brake and get down to a proper gear for the turn, except I didn't know what gear to shift down to (I was running in 6th). So I just rolled off the throttle, pulled in the clutch, kicked down to 3rd or 4th and coasted halfway thru the corner before slowly easing out the clutch and giving it gas. What should I have done?

[DEXSPEED]

i'm not a pro by any means,my best advice will be purchase keith code's "a twist of a wrist II" CORNERING BIBLE.i have watched it over and over etc..very ,very helpfull to us noobs.
the video even explains how "advice "from other riders can lead to bad habits.

[JMcDonald]

That works just fine, really. Ideally you want to already be in the correct gear and speed before you start the turn, with the clutch out (as opposed to coasting), so you can begin rolling on the throttle through the turn (Slow--Look--Press--Roll). However, especially when making right turns with traffic behind me, I do find myself trail braking (braking into the turn) in order to get out of the way of following traffic as quickly as possible, and then feathering out the clutch to get back on the gas (without jerking myself going from off- to on-throttle) in order to exit the turn.


But really, I wouldn't say you did anything *wrong*. Yeah, it wasn't ideal, but in street riding conditions rarely are so it is best you just become as comfortable with the bike as you can, so you can shift / turn / brake / feather / roll on the controls whenever you need to and as smoothly as possible.

Good luck and have fun!

[JMcDonald]

Originally Posted by DEXSPEED

the video even explains how "advice "from other riders can lead to bad habits.

Take everything you hear with a grain of salt, and compile it together with your own knowledge and understanding to reach the most logical conclusion for your situation.

[Alex]

Unless you have no knowledge or understanding, and then just do exactly what someone tells you to do on the internet.

(But that only works for this site. )

[gogoKawi]

Originally Posted by Alex

Unless you have no knowledge or understanding, and then just do exactly what someone tells you to do on the internet.

(But that only works for this site. )

That made my day!

[Misti]

Originally Posted by clintalmighty

So today was my second day out on the street, I still have work yet to do on my engine braking (quite a bit). However, I was approaching a right turn with a green light and I knew i had to brake and get down to a proper gear for the turn, except I didn't know what gear to shift down to (I was running in 6th). So I just rolled off the throttle, pulled in the clutch, kicked down to 3rd or 4th and coasted halfway thru the corner before slowly easing out the clutch and giving it gas. What should I have done?

Like JMcDonald said, it is a learning process and that ideally you should have your gear selected, your speed set AND the clutch OUT, before you enter the turn so that you can roll on the gas throughout the corner. What gear you should be in is going to depend on your speed and how tight or open the corner is. 6th gear while riding on a street and approaching an intersections seems like it may have been a bit high to start off with. Also, keeping your eyes up and looking far down the road will help you see the turns approaching ahead of time and give you lots of time to get your braking/downshifting done in time. I hope that helps and please feel free to ask any more specific questions if you have them. I'm a coach with the California Superbike School and will do my best to answer your (or anyone else's) questions about riding

Cheers and be safe!

Misti

[clintalmighty]

Originally Posted by Misti

Like JMcDonald said, it is a learning process and that ideally you should have your gear selected, your speed set AND the clutch OUT, before you enter the turn so that you can roll on the gas throughout the corner. What gear you should be in is going to depend on your speed and how tight or open the corner is. 6th gear while riding on a street and approaching an intersections seems like it may have been a bit high to start off with. Also, keeping your eyes up and looking far down the road will help you see the turns approaching ahead of time and give you lots of time to get your braking/downshifting done in time. I hope that helps and please feel free to ask any more specific questions if you have them. I'm a coach with the California Superbike School and will do my best to answer your (or anyone else's) questions about riding

Cheers and be safe!

Misti

What gear should you kick down to for a right turn at an intersection?? It was in a 55mph zone, that is why i was in 6th gear....thanks for the input

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by clintalmighty

What gear should you kick down to for a right turn at an intersection?? It was in a 55mph zone, that is why i was in 6th gear....thanks for the input

For 90 degree intersections, I find myself in 2nd gear a lot. However, if the intersection has a triangle with it's own turn lane, then I might be in 3rd depending on road & traffic conditions and the length & radius of the turn.

[gfloyd2002]

After you ride a bit you go by feel. Your foot just sort of knows where you need to be. You'll stop looking at the tach for up and downshifts, and you feel (or hear) where you should be. I never know what gear I'm in - I don't count. You just know that the bike is revving right and has power, with the very occassional tach glance to confirm what you're feeling. It is tempting to think of it like a math question, but it's more like an essay.

That said, if you want the math on it, it will depend on how tight the corner is and how fast you want to go. I'm assuming cornering RPMs in the 5000-7000 range, which is fairly low/conservative.
40MPH: 4th gear (Assuming a stock 14/45 gearing, if you are pulling 6500 RPMs in the corner, 4th gear will allow you to travel around 40MPH.)
30-35MPH: 3rd gear (14/45, 6500 RPMs, 3rd gear will be about 35mph. At 5500RPM, you'll be going 30.)
15 -30MPH: 2nd gear (At 14/45, 6000RPMs is 25MPH, varies from 20 to 30 in 5-7k range). Honestly, I let the revs drop in 2nd and make all but the slowest corners in 2nd -- 1st gear is pretty useless in 14/45 setup.

But if you are cornering while counting up and down shifts, calculating RPMs and MPH, you probably aren't looking through the turn, countersteering, etc. Go on feel instead. Until you develop the feel, err on the side of being in too high a gear (too low a gear could cause your rear wheel to lose traction.) Just downshift once, and if you need more ooomph, downshift again. Pretty safe to click down a couple of gears if you are crusing in 6th before you step down one at a time to find the right gear. Start early before the corner so you've got the right speed in advance and aren't stealing cornering traction with engine braking (which takes away rear wheel traction.) Pretty soon, your foot will know what to do without thinking about it.

[clintalmighty]

Originally Posted by gfloyd2002

After you ride a bit you go by feel. Your foot just sort of knows where you need to be. You'll stop looking at the tach for up and downshifts, and you feel (or hear) where you should be. I never know what gear I'm in - I don't count. You just know that the bike is revving right and has power, with the very occassional tach glance to confirm what you're feeling. It is tempting to think of it like a math question, but it's more like an essay.

That said, if you want the math on it, it will depend on how tight the corner is and how fast you want to go. I'm assuming cornering RPMs in the 5000-7000 range, which is fairly low/conservative.
40MPH: 4th gear (Assuming a stock 14/45 gearing, if you are pulling 6500 RPMs in the corner, 4th gear will allow you to travel around 40MPH.)
30-35MPH: 3rd gear (14/45, 6500 RPMs, 3rd gear will be about 35mph. At 5500RPM, you'll be going 30.)
15 -30MPH: 2nd gear (At 14/45, 6000RPMs is 25MPH, varies from 20 to 30 in 5-7k range). Honestly, I let the revs drop in 2nd and make all but the slowest corners in 2nd -- 1st gear is pretty useless in 14/45 setup.

But if you are cornering while counting up and down shifts, calculating RPMs and MPH, you probably aren't looking through the turn, countersteering, etc. Go on feel instead. Until you develop the feel, err on the side of being in too high a gear (too low a gear could cause your rear wheel to lose traction.) Just downshift once, and if you need more ooomph, downshift again. Pretty safe to click down a couple of gears if you are crusing in 6th before you step down one at a time to find the right gear. Start early before the corner so you've got the right speed in advance and aren't stealing cornering traction with engine braking (which takes away rear wheel traction.) Pretty soon, your foot will know what to do without thinking about it.

Wow, thanks for taking the time to give your input.
I plan on going out and practicing all this tomorrow, providing it's not too cold out

[wvninja]

You slow down to turn? jk jk

Just feel it out and finding the right speed / gear before the turn always helps

just dont be the guy that takes a turn and lets off the throttle because he went in to hot.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by clintalmighty

What gear should you kick down to for a right turn at an intersection?? It was in a 55mph zone, that is why i was in 6th gear....thanks for the input

Seems like others have answered this for you. I'd say 2nd or maybe third.

Did you get a chance to go out and practice? How did it go?

Misti

[clintalmighty]

Originally Posted by Misti

Seems like others have answered this for you. I'd say 2nd or maybe third.

Did you get a chance to go out and practice? How did it go?

Misti

Yeah, it seems like I dont even have to blip the throttle much to rev match, but i have had more success. Is not rev matching a bad habit?

[Live2ride]

Originally Posted by clintalmighty

Is not rev matching a bad habit?

Yes, it can be a bad habit, if you don't rev high enough, you could possibly lock up the back wheel for a split second, but that could be all it takes to go down. If you rev too high, the bike could jolt forward unexpectedly causing you to lose control (less likely on a 250 but can still happen). just my

[Live2ride]

Once you get the hang of engine braking, it becomes like second nature. ^And don't let my last post scare you because engine braking can be dangerous if you have no clue what your doing, but with just a little practice you should be fine.

[JMcDonald]

Yes, I would recommend rev-matching for the above reason. But, here are the two possible situations when downshifting without rev-matching:

1) You quickly pull in the clutch, pop down to the lower gear, and let out the clutch. This can result in skidding the rear wheel for a second, ESPECIALLY if you are already braking with the front brake OR if you are turning slightly (like if the road curves before the stop, for example). While this usually will just result in a little bouncing and you go about your business, it can result in a much worse situation.

2) You do the shift, but then let out the clutch more slowly to let the engine catch up to the rear wheel (figuratively speaking) to keep the rear from skidding. However, now every downshift loses you maybe an extra second compared to downshifting with a quick blip and getting the powertrain re-engaged ASAP.

Does that make sense?

[mrlmd]

You want to keep the power on going through a turn, not coasting. You have to set your speed and gearing BEFORE entering the turn, not slowing down or shifting IN the turn. In other words, do all your shifting down to the proper gear before you enter the turn, not during the turn. Best traction comes from slowly applying the throttle more as you get about half way through and accelerating a little as you straighten out. We are talking about riding on the street, not on the track, so you have to be aware of how fast you can go relative to the sharpness of the turn, as well as be totally aware of your surroundings (like other cars and pedestrians). If you think you are entering a little too fast once you are in the turn, or going wide, don't hit the brakes or chop the throttle, just countersteer more and you should get through it. If it was too fast, make sure you enter slower next time. Most of the time when riding on the street making a 90 degree right (or left) turn, you will be in 2nd or 3rd gear going 10-15 mph or less around the turn.

[JMcDonald]

Ideally this is indeed the case, but in most street turns a rider will hardly be going fast enough that less-efficient techniques will result in crashing. Trailbraking, shifting gears, coasting, rolling off the throttle, etc., while not ideal, are not going to kill you in a 10mph turn into a parking lot. In general, as long as they are done smoothly and within reason, they can be done successfully and more effectively than an ideal turn. But, don't let those techniques develop into habits that mess up faster turns when correct form and technique becomes more crucial.

[Nemesis]

Me? I would have taken that turn in 6th gear PINNED. In it to win it! Oh wait, we're not talking about a track turn, are we?

[Francis]

I'm no pro and a very new rider. It was my first day out yesterday on the street but I've done some riding non-intersection wise.

Anyways, I think I do my right turns in your situation in 2nd, but mostly 1st. It's safer to be slow, right? haha...

[JMcDonald]

On a stock bike, 2nd gear is still plenty low enough for almost any turn unless pulling from a stop, and even that is still doable. Some might even actively recommend 2nd gear over 1st, especially for a new rider, because 1st gear will make the bike much more sensitive to small throttle inputs, which can make control a bit more different.

BTW, the content of my previous post was based on what I had been told as a new rider. I had originally thought every turn must be taken exactly like the Slow-Look-Press-Roll taught in the MSF course, especially after I accidentally had a minor rear-wheel skid coming into a turn in my first week. But, I was assured that as long as you are smooth and careful and riding at safe speeds for the turn and conditions, using some alternate techniques and doing different things will turning won't really hurt you and can actually be beneficial, like if you are trying to avoid being rear-ended and don't want to slow down to 10mph in a 50 before starting the turn.