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View Poll Results: Where do new riders like to be in a group
In the Front/Leading the pack 0 0%
In the middle 5 23.81%
Last in line 3 14.29%
It doesn't matter to me 3 14.29%
I like Pie 11 52.38%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 17th, 2015, 08:17 AM   #1
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New Riders in a Group, Where do you prefer to ride?

So where do you new riders like to ride when riding in a group?

My daughter likes to lead, because she wants to set the pace, and she HATES being tailgated by cars. But she usually doesn't know where we are going. Thankfully we just got our Sena headsets so I can tell her what turns to take.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 08:57 AM   #2
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Mmmm... pie.....

Link to original page on YouTube.

Seriously... it's possible to overthink this stuff. Just ride the ride in the way that's comfortable for you. Lead, follow, doesn't matter. Know where you're going because you WILL get separated at some point.

The problem with a lot of group rides is that it eventually becomes all about trying to keep the group together and not about the ride. A good way around this is to make it clear that everyone's responsible for his/her own navigation.

These days there is no excuse for getting lost... everyone has a GPS and amazingly enough, real paper maps still exist (shocker!) and are easy to carry.

Set speed and passing rules along with regroup/destination points and how long the group will wait at every stop. Worried about breakdowns? That's what phones are for. No excuse for not leaving a message or sending a text.

Simple, right?

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Old August 17th, 2015, 09:38 AM   #3
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Well not everyone has a GPS, and not everyone should be looking at the GPS while they ride.

Reason I asked is I have a 16 year old daughter that will have had her permit for a week tomorrow. (and she doesn't have a smart phone with a GPS) I also have quite a few other friends that like to ride. So we will often be going out in a small group of 4-6 bikes.

Just trying to get an idea of where other new riders like to be.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 10:02 AM   #4
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hmmm Tom,

1 week of riding experience? Imma be blunt here, Tom... you should be in front of her at all times. I see that you can assert that she can ride her own ride and that is good, nurture that! But YOU should lead the group of you, her and anyone else that wants to run a pace that you set for your daughter. Otherwise, skip the group rides until she is a bit more seasoned or unless the groups FULLY accepts the weakest link.

This is my opinion from one parent to another, nothing more. Any chance your daugher has much more experience riding via dirt and the likes?

To the OP question: When I am in a new group, I ride in the middle somewhere that feels right.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 11:43 AM   #5
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Well not everyone has a GPS, and not everyone should be looking at the GPS while they ride.

Reason I asked is I have a 16 year old daughter that will have had her permit for a week tomorrow. (and she doesn't have a smart phone with a GPS) I also have quite a few other friends that like to ride. So we will often be going out in a small group of 4-6 bikes.

Just trying to get an idea of where other new riders like to be.
I'm with csmith12. At 16, she should be between two experienced riders at all times and never out of sight.

A 16 year old without a smart phone? Imagine that....

When I said "everyone has a GPS" I'm referring to a phone that you can refer to when needed (i.e. lost, pulled over, and figuring out where you are), not necessarily a device you look at while riding. Navigation does not automatically mean being fed turn-by-turn directions.

I'm only slightly joking about being surprised that she doesn't have one. These days about the only demographic that doesn't use smart phones as a matter of course is senior citizens. Which means that just about everyone you meet literally has a map in their pocket. Getting lost with absolutely no access to location or direction information? Not likely in this day and age.

Smart phone or no, I believe that learning to navigate using one's own sense of direction and/or a paper map is an essential skill. Maybe I'm old school that way, but I almost never get lost.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 12:05 PM   #6
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hmmm Tom,

1 week of riding experience? Imma be blunt here, Tom... you should be in front of her at all times. I see that you can assert that she can ride her own ride and that is good, nurture that! But YOU should lead the group of you, her and anyone else that wants to run a pace that you set for your daughter. Otherwise, skip the group rides until she is a bit more seasoned or unless the groups FULLY accepts the weakest link.

This is my opinion from one parent to another, nothing more. Any chance your daugher has much more experience riding via dirt and the likes?

To the OP question: When I am in a new group, I ride in the middle somewhere that feels right.
No she hasn't been riding dirt bikes. Just a MSF course and a week on her Ninjette.

She has been following me around the neighborhood and on short rides. On Saturday we took a ride of about 30 miles each way. I led on the way out, setting a pace she was comfortable with. Problem was there was a short stretch of 2 lane road with a 55 MPH speed limit and she wasn't comfortable going that fast, so I slowed down to about 45 MPH. There was a suburban behind her that felt if he pushed her she would speed up. No good place on a little 2 lane road to pull over and let him pass, which he finally did anyway in a no passing zone. The tailgater really stressed her out and on the way back she wanted to lead and have me follow. Since we have Sena intercoms I let her lead and I followed. I didn't have any problems with people tailgating me.

On Sunday we went out riding with a friend of ours. I took lead, my daughter was next and our friend took up the tail. She seemed very comfortable with that arrangement. We also stuck to roads that only had a 45 MPH speed limit on them and rode around for about an hour and a half and went about 50 miles. We had no problems with tailgaters.

As for the groups we ride with, they are all close friends and/or co-workers that are very supportive of my daughter being a new rider. They have had other new riders with them in the past.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 12:08 PM   #7
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A 16 year old without a smart phone? Imagine that....
She is a 16 year old that pays for her own luxuries, basic cell phone is provided by mom and dad to all 4 of the kids so we can keep in touch with them. She paid for her own Ninja 250 even doing a fair bit of the work to get it running.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 12:13 PM   #8
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Cool! Trust goes a long way in a group setting. Sounds like she is fairly mature, you just might have a good one there!

jk, Best of luck to her and being new to riding is one of the best times.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 12:32 PM   #9
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I would say to have her in between two experienced riders for safety reasons as stated above

personally though I like to be in the back as it allows me to see what everyone is up to and assess road conditions based on others reactions to them. While I prefer a quick pace I'm perfectly fine with riding whatever pace the group sets as I understand that the majority of people are not comfortable with riding at any form of an elevated pace.

Now if it's a group ride at a track (especially a race) I prefer to be out front so I have the freedom to brake and turn in wherever I want rather than having to brake earlier to avoid ramming someone
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Old August 17th, 2015, 01:47 PM   #10
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She is a 16 year old that pays for her own luxuries, basic cell phone is provided by mom and dad to all 4 of the kids so we can keep in touch with them. She paid for her own Ninja 250 even doing a fair bit of the work to get it running.
Now that is truly impressive.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 02:50 PM   #11
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Now that is truly impressive.
She's one of a kind. Youngest of 4, but knows how to stick up for herself even though she is barely 5' tall.

As a 2nd grader she argued with the assistant principal of her elementary school and totally destroyed him with a completely logical argument. He gave up and told her they would discuss it later. For years after that when he would see her coming down the hall he would turn and walk the other way so he didn't have to discuss it again.

If she would have gotten a hold of the suburban driver I almost would have felt sorry for him.
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Old August 17th, 2015, 04:23 PM   #12
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I'll put my two cents here,

I started riding I was well over twice her age. So I started riding with no motorcycle experience, but a lot as a car driver and bicycle riding.

The first season I was riding with my two friends, they always wanted me to be the leader, so I could ride a pace comfortable for me, not having to prove myself by trying to stick with them.

They could watch from behind so they were able to make comments on my riding, my positioning, etc.

Since I was fresh out of motorcycle classes, I was able to ride the way I was thought and not trying to mimic the riding style of my friends .

And if I had to make a really stupid mistake or a bad decision, I wouldn't hit them from behind of take them down with me.

Honestly, I was very happy riding up front, because I was closer to the center lane, so I had some place on my right to correct my trajectory if I had to, and often, the right side of the lane is somewhat always a little dirtier or more damaged.

So I would say, if she's happier up front let her be there, her ride will be more enjoyable for her and she'll focus more on her technique.

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Old August 17th, 2015, 08:28 PM   #13
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I'm not going to tell someone how to parent. But I will say this, drivers/riders with very little real world driving exposure are at a higher risk simply because they are going to make "mistakes." I'm not just talking about technique and riding skills, just traffic in general and having a sense of how most other drivers react. Just sayin' I'm glad I had a lot of experience driving and riding bicycles before I started riding on the street.


Aside from that. Having the student in front of you will do wonders for growth and assessment. Initially that is. It gives the educator a chance to observe and make good suggestions. And like what was said above the rider will be comfortable. That's what you want.
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Old August 18th, 2015, 01:35 PM   #14
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While some new riders may be more comfortable following, riding in the front forces them to ride at their own pace and makes assessment possible. Of course, this is all in a strict educational setting, it's probably better to stick w/ what's most confortable.
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Old August 18th, 2015, 02:36 PM   #15
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UK motorcycle instructor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix_SyWEwK2U

While some new riders may be more comfortable following, riding in the front forces them to ride at their own pace and makes assessment possible. Of course, this is all in a strict educational setting, it's probably better to stick w/ what's most confortable.
From the same UK instructor:

Clutch & throttle control is important:

Link to original page on YouTube.



Squeeze the front brake lever, do not grab a fist full (especially when it's wet):

Link to original page on YouTube.



Sometimes, sheet just happens:

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Old August 18th, 2015, 02:42 PM   #16
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I'm not going to tell someone how to parent. But I will say this, drivers/riders with very little real world driving exposure are at a higher risk simply because they are going to make "mistakes." I'm not just talking about technique and riding skills, just traffic in general and having a sense of how most other drivers react. Just sayin' I'm glad I had a lot of experience driving and riding bicycles before I started riding on the street.


Aside from that. Having the student in front of you will do wonders for growth and assessment. Initially that is. It gives the educator a chance to observe and make good suggestions. And like what was said above the rider will be comfortable. That's what you want.
That sounds like a person with an intercom connection to her should be riding behind her to give advice as she rides, but since she is a new rider and driver she should be following a more experienced rider. Or in other words put her between two experienced riders.
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Old August 18th, 2015, 03:03 PM   #17
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A "new" rider should not be part of a group ride. Period. In any position. Ever. This is a recipe for disaster.
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Old August 18th, 2015, 05:26 PM   #18
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A "new" rider should not be part of a group ride. Period. In any position. Ever. This is a recipe for disaster.
So they should ride by themselves?

My daughter can't do that for 9 months. Here in VA if you are under 19, even though you have a drivers license, and have taken the MSF course you do not automatically get your license. You only get your permit, and you have to hold your permit for 9 months before you get a license. While you have your permit you have to ride with another licensed rider over the age of 21. (the licensed rider can be on another bike or in a car). Permit holders cannot carry passengers or ride between midnight and 4 AM.

I guess we may have a different definition of a group ride. A group ride for me is generally 3-5 bikes.
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Old August 18th, 2015, 06:18 PM   #19
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1st time, back just in front of sweep. 2nd time middle, now I either co lead or sweep.

First few group rides were with hubby and 2 friends...
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Old August 18th, 2015, 06:34 PM   #20
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Sounds like the same deal as NJ. We have provisional licenses. Anyone under 21 years old starts out with a provisional license for a year. We have a red decal to be placed on the rear license plate so the whole world (especially cops) would know. Drive like an ass with your provisional license and they will not be lenient.

There are also certain rules (number of passengers, age of passengers) and curfews as well for drivers. I'm not sure how that translate for riders.
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Old August 18th, 2015, 07:02 PM   #21
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1. Most Experienced/Skilled/Responsible riders should be first and last everyone else in the middle.
2. Study and learn your area so you don't need maps or GPS, have check points every 25-30 miles, or when you are switching roads.
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Old August 19th, 2015, 02:25 AM   #22
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I will agree with Chris as well on her being in behind you.
when I started riding I followed my hubby, I still set the pace.

when my brother rides (new rider) I sweep, my hubby leads and my brother is in the middle.
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Old August 19th, 2015, 06:11 AM   #23
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other side of the street, going the other direction.

wave at everyone, get home on time.
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Old August 19th, 2015, 06:27 AM   #24
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other side of the street, going the other direction.

wave at everyone, get home on time.

and eat pie.
fixed it for you.
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Old August 19th, 2015, 07:24 AM   #25
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Old August 20th, 2015, 05:01 AM   #26
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So they should ride by themselves?

My daughter can't do that for 9 months. Here in VA if you are under 19, even though you have a drivers license, and have taken the MSF course you do not automatically get your license. You only get your permit, and you have to hold your permit for 9 months before you get a license. While you have your permit you have to ride with another licensed rider over the age of 21. (the licensed rider can be on another bike or in a car). Permit holders cannot carry passengers or ride between midnight and 4 AM.

I guess we may have a different definition of a group ride. A group ride for me is generally 3-5 bikes.
A group to me is anything more than a pair. So yes, 3-5 bikes is a group. If legally she has to be with someone, she should be with the legal minimum and someone who has her safety as the #1 priority not enjoying the ride (so preferably you). As soon as she is legally allowed to ride alone, lots (as in a year plus) of alone time before group riding. The nature of group riding encourages riders to ride beyond their own ability, headlight, and brakes even if unintentional - it's a recipe for disaster. If she has to ride with you, let her go in front and give an enormous distance between you two (prefer you to be in a car, offers her more protection). Tell her to forget you are even there. Once she is a very experienced rider and has made some mistakes on her own and knows what to do when the **** hits the fan, that's when you get to ride together or as a group and enjoy it.

But that's just me - I also remove the rear seat and pegs off any bike I buy the day I buy it just to avoid the temptation - if I make a mistake on the bike I pay for it, no one else.
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Old August 20th, 2015, 05:27 AM   #27
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- I also remove the rear seat and pegs off any bike I buy the day I buy it just to avoid the temptation - if I make a mistake on the bike I pay for it, no one else.
It's a pregen so I can't remove the passenger seat, but I have thought of taking the passenger pegs off of her bike. Although she knows she legally can't carry passengers on her permit. She also legally can't ride without an adult licensed rider accompanying her. So she would be double wrong with a passenger on the back (because I wouldn't let her do that so she most likely would be riding by herself and with a passenger). There may also be times that I want to use her bike to carry passengers (such as taking my bike to the shop, she could follow me on hers, then I could rider her bike home with her as a passenger) Of course it's only 2 bolts to put the passenger pegs back on so it could be very easily accomplished on the rare occasion it is needed.

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If she has to ride with you, let her go in front and give an enormous distance between you two (prefer you to be in a car, offers her more protection). Tell her to forget you are even there. Once she is a very experienced rider and has made some mistakes on her own and knows what to do when the **** hits the fan, that's when you get to ride together or as a group and enjoy it.

I hadn't given much thought to following her in the car. But I can see where that would eliminate any tailgating Suburban's for her.

But thanks for sharing your opinion, that's why I posted the question.
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Old August 20th, 2015, 09:23 AM   #28
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It's a pregen so I can't remove the passenger seat, but I have thought of taking the passenger pegs off of her bike. Although she knows she legally can't carry passengers on her permit. She also legally can't ride without an adult licensed rider accompanying her. So she would be double wrong with a passenger on the back (because I wouldn't let her do that so she most likely would be riding by herself and with a passenger). There may also be times that I want to use her bike to carry passengers (such as taking my bike to the shop, she could follow me on hers, then I could rider her bike home with her as a passenger) Of course it's only 2 bolts to put the passenger pegs back on so it could be very easily accomplished on the rare occasion it is needed.




I hadn't given much thought to following her in the car. But I can see where that would eliminate any tailgating Suburban's for her.

But thanks for sharing your opinion, that's why I posted the question.
I think following her in the car is a much better idea than on your bike - she won't say so, but new riders always tend to feel like they need to keep up. On my first few rides I had my wife drive the truck behind me and essentially "block". This is really important when on hills and under braking the first few times to have a huge margin to the car behind you which strangers will often not afford.
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Old August 20th, 2015, 12:54 PM   #29
Rogue
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Name: Robin
Location: Central Iowa
Join Date: Jun 2013

Motorcycle(s): 2013 Ninja EX300

Posts: 250
When I was first learning to ride, I would ride in front of my husband so he could keep an eye on me and provide a safety buffer between me and any cars behind. Once I started riding with others, I was always safely in the middle and my husband would lead because he was quite familiar with the pace I would be comfortable maintaining. Now I ride sweeper for other new riders.
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