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Old February 16th, 2020, 09:09 AM   #1
Turboninjaproject
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Fuel injected 08-11 ninja250r help

Looking for more info on the European fuel injected ninja 250r mainly can I find bigger injectors using this throttle body in a boosted application and think Iím gonna run out of fuel before I make much power any help would be appreciated
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Old February 16th, 2020, 10:12 AM   #2
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Hi and welcome to Ninjette Matt!

For these kinds of projects, start with end-result first and work backwards.

1. What is power target?
2. How much boost is required for that power (pressure-ratio)?
3. What is that in air-flow mass? CFM?
4. How much total fuel volume needs to be injected to match that air-flow? At 12.0:1 AFR?
5. How much fuel-flow is that per injector @ 80% duty-cycle?
6. What is fuel-flow rate of factory oem injectors?
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Old February 16th, 2020, 11:36 AM   #3
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All the power

I guess thatís what Iím trying to find out as a limiting factor what should I expect to max out at with the original injectors. From what I found their 140cc injectors but itís extremely hard to find info on this because where I am their gray market parts and wiki/google only has so much info. Iím running it off of an ecotrons kit the turbo was sized for a 250cc up to a 500cc motorcycle from kinugawa turbos also expecting if I want to optimize the use of the turbo I might need to consider ethanol then I would definitely need more injector and possibly more pump than the ecotrons one is capable of. So all Iím really looking for is info on the fi ninja250r 08-11 I managed to buy the throttle bodies and get custom cables made and work but Iím kind of running blind until I get more work done and really just find itís limits fuel wise hopefully but for fun I would be happy with 40hp to start and go up in boost from their
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Old February 16th, 2020, 12:14 PM   #4
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Note that injector flows are rated at standard 3-bar pressure and 100℅ duty-cycle full flow. Pumps and injectors are easy to replace. Do not let that be deciding factor in anything. They are sized for your target power output at very end.

EAT-811 = 175cc/min @ 43psi
INP-288 = 200cc/min @ 43psi
INP-250 = 235cc/min @ 43psi

Select your power output first. Then do proper maths:




Reason maths is vitally important and critical in planning stages is it dictates your turbo sizing. Plot your numbers on compressor map and find appropriate turbo.



Reason every single 250 turbo project has failed and blown up is lack of proper maths. Just picking cheap VZ turbo without doing maths has resulted in selecting turbo that's way, way too big for application. VZ turbo has sweet-spot of 100-150bhp!!! No way are you gonna run 50-70psi boost to get it to flow in its efficiency island and not blow up engine! Less boost results in tremendous lag and compressor-surge which is impossible to tune an aftermarket standalone programmable EFI system for because it's operating off edge of 3D maps.

So... What's your power target and show your maths.
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Old February 16th, 2020, 12:25 PM   #5
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
If you are buying parts from EFI bike to convert yours, use Ninja 400 parts as they'll be sized more appropriately for power-output you're after. Would even be better to cut and weld up your own automotive-style intake-manifold with common plenum and single throttle-body as this will even out intake-pulses and allow MAP-sensor to work properly. Even better to use MAF-sensor ahead of throttle-body.


EDIT: see you have 40bhp target. What pressure-ratios and flow-rates do you need?

BTW - Throw that Ecotrons in trash and buy real EFI system like Accel DFI, AEM EMS, Apexi PowerFC, Austronic, Autotronic, Electromotive TEC, EMtron, FAST, FiTech, Haltech, Holley, LinkECU, Megasquirt/Microsquirt, MoTeC, ProEFI, SDS-EFI, Wolfe 3D, etc.. You will waste endless amounts of time and money trying to get Ecotrons to work and it never will.

Look up Greg737's Microsquirt EFI conversion on Ninja 250 and Bandit 400. It's only EFI conversion that's lasted more than couple months. I recommend doing EFI conversion first and getting it dialed in. Then add turbo after that. No ethanol need as low-compression on new-gen can handle sufficient boost for 60bhp on pump gas with no problem.

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Old February 16th, 2020, 01:56 PM   #6
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Yeah did that

Have startup for the ecotrons running good at 43psi of fuel going threw a aeromotive fpr with boost reference never seen anyone using boost reference for a fpr for this and I donít know why my map and my bov reference will be on the back side of the throttle bodies just getting the plenum welded at the moment went with a 6Ē long 3.5Ē tube as the base for the plenum and the air is all 2Ē going threw a intercooler sized by bell itís only about 3.5Ē tall 2Ē deep and 5Ē long just to help a lil so as far as I know I have lots of volume to help with surge also it has a billet waste gate on the turbo with replaceable springs starting as small as possible.3 bar have springs all the way to 2bar was going to reference the fpr on the plenum so it doesnít see vacuum
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Old February 16th, 2020, 03:21 PM   #7
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
FPR should be connected to plenum after throttle-body so it sees vacuum and lowers fuel-pressure under non-boost operations. That's because tip of injectors will experience vacuum and pressures differential between inlet and outlet of injectors wIll be higher than 43psi. Same thing under boost, injectors will have pressure at their tips forcing fuel backwards. FPR should increase fuel-pressure in-step with boost to maintain 43-psi differential across injectors. This makes fuel-calculations much, much easier because 5ms pulse-width will end up squirting exact same volume of petrol at 15-in.Hg vacuum or 10psi boost.



Wastegate should get control signal from charge-tube between intercooler outlet and throttle-body. This will then allow signal to incorporate pressure-drop through intercooler. That drop is not constant value and most people mistakenly tap into turbo's compressor outlet before intercooler. Result will be dropping boost-curve as RPMs increase since pressure-drop across intercooler increases with RPM and boost. Even Porsche made this mistake on some of their cars.

Due to variable signal required going to wastegate just to maintain flat boost-curve under WOT, you can't connect charge-pipe line directly to wastegate diaphragm. This signal should actually decrease as RPMs increase in order to maintain flat boost-curve due to exhaust-pressure pushing on wastegate valve. As RPMs increase, exhaust-pressure increases and diaphragm pressure needs to decrease in order to maintain same boost (especially if you want low-boost with weak spring). Solution is to use boost-controller between charge-pipe and wastegate diaphragm. I've got extra BoostSciences Reliaboost1.PDF I can send you. Just PM me your address.



Finally, BOV should be configured as CBV in recirculation configuration. During shifts, this diverts pressurised turbo compressor outlet back around to compressor inlet and keeps turbo spinning for minimal lag during shifts. Otherwise in BOV config, it dumps all pressurized air to outside. Turbo inlet is forced to compress unpressurized outside air and this stops turbo dead in its tracks since there's no exhaust pressure to drive it during shifts. Then turbo has to spool up again after shift and you have classic turbo-lag.

BOV also really messes with MAF measurements in draw-through systems as metered air is dumped and never makes it into engine. Even with common plenum, you'll find that MAF load-sensing is much, much more accurate than MAP or alpha-N blended MAP+TPS.
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Old February 16th, 2020, 03:42 PM   #8
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Lots to try

Have some learning curve to do on this but so far what Iím planing to do is based of the early 750turbo routing wise trying to drop comp as well have some weisco 12.5ís weíre going to get cut basically as much as possible and a slightly thicker copper head gasket
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Old February 16th, 2020, 07:59 PM   #9
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Cometic MLS headgasket will work better than copper one. Can double up on base-gasket between lower cases and cylinder block to decrease compression.

Lots of technologies have improved and new knowledge gained through lots of trial & error in past couple decades. Electronic controls allows things to be done completely opposite of what was considered normal back then (i.e. cam specs). Check out WRX boards for newest and best tech. I recommend to!lowing reading list:

Forced Induction Performance Tuning - A Practical guide - Bell 2003 Haynes
Tune & Modify Automotive Engine Management Systems - Hartman 2004 MBI Publishing
Good read on tuning aftermarket EFI systems: http://www.megamanual.com/begintuning.htm

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Old February 16th, 2020, 08:15 PM   #10
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Yeah lots has improved my dad ran his 750turbo in a stock class he just added a potentiometer to the air temp on the motor and put a bleed valve off the vacuum line going to the ecu and was able to raise boost and the fuel trim enough to work made his own air shifter and had a tiny on board compressor made for a bike with air suspension back then in the early 90s just sort of trying to build something we can do together and Iíve always wanted to turbo something since seeing his bike bus as for some of the tips my bov is adjustable up to 25lbs thought it was more for off throttle when you would get a surge from unused boost couldnít I adjust it to just keep from loosing too much pressure a few more lbs than the wastegate just as a measure to help with flutter when it overboosts
Those injectors you listed are they off the shelf for bikes here I have eat288 in their now wonít be enough to do much if I did my research right maybe the .3 bar but idk
Turbo td025L 8t billet wastegate
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Old October 7th, 2020, 07:25 AM   #11
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Throttle body settings

So I have the 250 throttle bodies on now running well but curious what Th e factor air screw settings should be wants to stumble when I decel down to idle quickly anyone have any ideas?
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Old October 11th, 2020, 05:42 PM   #12
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
This is 2 independent settings:

1. Idle-screw should be set so engine has factory idle-speed. Around 1300-1400rpms or so

2. Injector turn-on RPM. When you close-throttle, most ECUs turns off fuel momentarily. Then as engine speed slows to certain RPM, ECU turns injectors again to give engine “soft landing” to idle speed. Factory ECU has this programmed around 3500 RPMs.

Issue is you now have something in intake blocking air-flow. This causes engine to decelerate faster than stock when you close throttle. So it’s best to re-program this injector turn-on setting to higher RPM so engine doesn’t drop too far before injectors are brought back online. Any aftermarket programmable EFI system like Mega/Microsquirt, Electromotive, MoTeC, etc. will allow setting this to any RPM you want.

Also due to less flow than stock at lowest load row on 3D map, you may be too rich there. Try reducing fuel in lowest-load row in 5% increments to see if behavior changes. If it gets worse, then adjust in other direction.

Other thing to check is if TPS’s idle switch makes contact properly when you close throttle.

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Old October 17th, 2020, 07:23 PM   #13
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Perfect

Thanks looking at this I found decel functions lol kinda ported the head a lot and I may or may have not used microlon it sounds way meaner found a post on here that recommended a shop in us that had the head gasket sizing saved and I’m just stuck to copper so got it all together running good opted for a aem xboost guage/ controller with a boost solenoid so I can keep the lowest spring in gate for now seem to have a ton of fuel?
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Old October 17th, 2020, 08:54 PM   #14
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Be sure you to anneal copper head-gasket to make it soft before installing.

Sure better safe than sorry with rich mixtures to start. Then dial back to 12.5:1 under boost for max-power with dyno-tuning or wideband.

Setting wastegate spring too weak can cause problems with low-boost and dropping boost as RPMs increase. That’s because even with controller holding solenoid fully-closed full time (zero pressure to diaphragm), wastegate will still be pushed open by exhaust pressure itself. You’ll want to set spring for lowest boost you’ll ever run with pressure line directly connected to wastegate. A lot of turbos are configured with hose connected directly from compressor-outlet to wastegate diaphragm. Then select spring to give lowest boost you want to run, say 10psi.



Then insert boost-solenoid between compressor-outlet and diaphragm. EBC will give this minimum boost at 100% on solenoid (passthrough). Once this spring-rate is set, EBC then can be programmed for higher boost-levels (such as 15-20psi). If your EBC has ability, you can program different boost-levels per gear as traction-control. Set whatever boost barely spins 1st, then higher for 2nd. Max-boost can be used for 3rd gear onwards.

You’ll want to look into higher-pressure valve springs to prevent valve-float under max-boost at higher RPMs. General rule-of-thumb is 2% more pressure per 1psi boost. So if you’re gonna run 10psi max, you’ll want 20% stiffer valve-springs. Max-boost of 20psi will need 40% stiffer springs.
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Old October 20th, 2020, 12:35 PM   #15
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Thanks for the help

Definitely already annealed the gasket I trimmed the cylinder sizing myself before guy had measurements but wanted to go over factory Bore for simplicity I guess so I asked him to go under bore and I cut the little corners out for the valves myself then annealed with torches had kind of forgot about the valve springs tho I seen another build where the guy didnít do them and had problems with the head gasket then did and it got worse and made noise in the head wondering has anyone ran stiffer springs on one of these engines And had luck if not I may just stay a lil under factory max rpm Iím sure thatís where all the power is but it runs sooo good and I took so much time to shim it and everything 😂 I donít really wanna pull the cams again
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Old October 20th, 2020, 05:28 PM   #16
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Well, on those other builds, I suspect there was already damage by time stiffer valve-springs were installed. Also not using aftermarket programmable EFI system is major issue. Having 3D ignition-map programmed for boost is much, much more reliable and durable than trying to gimmick factory 2D RPM-based ignition map.

Since max VE for new-gen is tuned for mid-range, that's where most of your power-improvements will be delivered anyway. So yes, stay out of high-RPMs for safety. I'd say set redline @10k just to be safe.

Do you have intercooler?
What max-boost levels are you using?
Mind posting your maps? I'm collecting everyone's for references. Might put together a DB of some sort.
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Old January 18th, 2021, 10:39 AM   #17
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Back at it with some time off

I wish I had more answers lool been really taking my time life comes first sometimes. Just had the engine running EFI converted first to eliminate problems later on I have an intercooler and Iím just finishing the exhaust manifold it has been a royal pain the way I want to make it fit itís a very close short run from the head flanges and wanted to shrink when my welder friend did it. So I bought a tig myself and Iím getting close send you the timing curve soon Iím going to need to change it I think it does retard after 8000 ish but full advance was 39. Gonna start documenting more of what Iím doing lol 😂
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Old September 8th, 2021, 06:30 AM   #18
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Talking Running and driving

Injectors are definitely a bit small making big swings at the fuel map in ecotrons. It still needs some work at partial throttle but the main wot map isnít bad. Still had the stock 250cc throttle bodies in their mainly because I had them. Seems like they could be used to max out 6 psi of boost. Got some ninja 300 TBís now so Iím going to try and fit 400 ninja injectors in. I like the injector port design better on the 300ís tbís definitely more room inside. They wonít be a direct fit but it wouldnít be one of my projects if it was haha. Ohh and that turbo is amazing map shows above atmospheric pressure at about 5000rpm and drops right away gate kicking in. I started with a smaller spring only making 3psi and it creeps a bit after 8000. With this spring itís 5.2ish psi and creeps in the same place Iím assuming it could make more boost. Also I have a regulator for boost but Iím not using it yet as I do need more fuel. Making great progress from a bike in 1000 pieces less than a year ago. 😁
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Old September 8th, 2021, 08:10 AM   #19
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Hey, you're longest living turbo project yet!!!

Post your Ecotrons file, would be interest what it looks like.

Looks like you’ve got way too much ignition-advance, more than CA factory ignition, I’d use no more than 35 to start and back off if you detect any pinging with knock-block.

Should always use boost-controller. Just set it to 0psi or 1psi boost for now. It’ll give flat boost curve without creep. You need consistent and predictable flow through engine in order to program 3D maps.

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Old September 8th, 2021, 01:16 PM   #20
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Thanks for the help knowledge is power. I do want to keep it that way aswell haha running I mean. Seemed to like those ignition changes tried 37.5 then down to 35 seemed to pick up power a tiny bit but feels better I still have a lean spot as Iím transitioning into boost but Iím doing better every try. Seems to be a mixture of both maps that need more fuel. The tps map seems like it wants a lot of off throttle gas under 100% tps so shifts and rolling in can be better but itís working.
I may try the solenoid setup it was just more consistent withouti found. I messed around when I had the 3psi spring in and it seems finicky I guess set crack pressure at 4 psi then set it to 20% duty to start thatís what Iím thinking at least then I may get 5 more consistent. Either way Iím gonna start modifying these other TBís later tonight along with finishing my front fender theirs none on atm itís tight up their with an intercooler and oil cooler.
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Old September 9th, 2021, 10:14 AM   #21
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Ignition map needs tonnes more work. Extruding 2D ignition-curve across 3D map gives you same deficiencies and weaknesses without any benefits of 3D mapping. Post your actual Ecotrons file and we'll make some adjustments. You have way, way too much advance in lower-load/low-RPM ranges and risking back-spinning engine as combustion will have occurred well before piston has reach TDC! Here's some sample igntion-maps, note max-advance only occurs in highest-RPM/low-load ranges. As load increases in high-RPMs, you'll actually want to decrease advance due to faster-combustion. Idle is nearest corner, RPMs increase to right, load increases towards back.




Don't use EBC from Ecotrons, it'll blow up your engine. Basic spring check-ball valve MBC will work much better and give flat boost-curve so you'll be able to tune 3D maps.

MAP-sensing doesn't work well with ITB. Need to connect both vacuum-lines after throttle-butterfly to a common large-volume (0.5l) plenum chamber to average out pulses. Then MAP will work. Or use large plenum with MAF-sensor for most accurate load-sensing

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Old September 9th, 2021, 11:54 AM   #22
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Iíve tried it just says invalid file if I try to post here. And no I have a AEM boost solenoid and a x series guage.It has built in programming functions but itís touchy. Yeah I was thinking of joining the two banks for map sensor theirs a spot on the 300 TBís thatís joined already but it didnít go to the map sensor? So the one bank reading must have a worked on stock application. I know what you mean though the readings are quite bouncy. As for the ignition map I know Iím not getting everything out of it and itís slightly scary. But if factory was using all that ignition before the boost curve why couldnít I then take some out as Iím into boost 7000+ I would think. Iíve just been exploring up their without trying to heat soak it too badly. Did another run today with more fuel and tps around the 6000+ area and up and it seems almost perfect like no hesitation anywhere just a tiny bit if I roll on slowly. Still only in that 7-8000 area where itís transitioning.
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Old September 9th, 2021, 12:19 PM   #23
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I think I got it had to compress the file. let me know if that works. you may need the .a2 file aswell im also not running ecocal. I got a different program procal may not load the same. But Iíll take any help I can get
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Old September 10th, 2021, 08:05 AM   #24
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Problem with 2D ignition-curve is that it's optimised for WOT at each RPM. Causes laziness and sluggish response under low-load/mid-range operating areas. I'll take look at maps in Procal. I've got newest version from Chinese manufacturer of kit.

Do you have wideband O2-sensor for tuning AFR?

Post some photos of your setup!
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Old September 10th, 2021, 09:40 AM   #25
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Hey hereís some pics for you. Was thinking Iíd bring my timing to 33 at about 7000 and I stepped it up slower to 5000 where Iíll try to bring it down from their. Did some reading lastnight. Thatís basically what the busa guys seem to do at least on 100% duty. Well they go to 25 but Iím guessing our boost #s are very different if I start running more Iíll need to make more changes to retard further. Iím also going to add a table to 110 as thatís how much fuel Iím giveing in the 9000+ rpm range. Then itís almost able to work off boost as I have my ve table and tps table set up that way. Goo easy on me lol it was my first time tig welding but I made parts that work for now haha. But really my friend had been trying and trying to make a manifold. I started from scratch and worked with the shrinkage to get everything to line up all those welds have a solid 2 passes to fill and then to contort to get everything where I needed it. I also braced it slightly might redo the brace over winter but itís so tight I almost have to take everything 100% apart to work on it but thatís the fun part. Made the manifold then needed to make a wrench to tighten it. thanks again you are such a helpful person. The world needs more ppl like you I would gladly send you a donation to help with all that you do but for now Iíll pay you in pictures
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Old September 11th, 2021, 03:54 PM   #26
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That manifold looks really nice, good job
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Old September 11th, 2021, 05:24 PM   #27
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Smile More pics

Hereís a few more bits and pieces. Most of it was more difficult for the fit so the turbo could clear the wastegate around the coolant hardline. Then the plenum and intercooler. Running pretty good now have had to go up in sprockets twice up to 15t front and 43 rear now and still pulls 6th way better than before.
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Old September 11th, 2021, 05:32 PM   #28
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Few more pics
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Old September 11th, 2021, 08:14 PM   #29
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Great job on assembling that turbo! Got it mounted high, awesome!
Plenum looks really good!

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; September 12th, 2021 at 03:04 PM.
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Old September 12th, 2021, 06:11 AM   #30
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Thanks Dannoxyz still curious of my ignition tables. Seems the way itís set up I was probably never running all the advance. Looked at more recordings yesterday .looks like the lambda based controls were kicking in and retarding about 3.7 degrees when I go wot pretty well anywhere. I was trying to get around 12/1 afr at least but Iím seeing 12.4-13 in high rpm. So with me dropping it down to 35 degrees it was actually running 31 with the corrections. Think Iím gonna try and leave that cuz it works for throttle control. As my lambda is closer to 1 at cruising. Still needs partial throttle work but I can do that. What Iím curious with is the off throttle angles is their anything I can read to help me understand I donít have a knock sensor and I know that would be ideal. So I just want to pull enough to be safe then maybe someday Iíll find a dyno guy that has a stand-alone unit we can use to test.
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Old September 12th, 2021, 02:36 PM   #31
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Knock-sensors don’t work at high-RPMs and high-loads because of valvetrain noise. Too many boosted engines have blown up due to reliance on knock-sensor.

It takes A LOT of filtering and signal-processing to detect knock from sensor signal. Only product that actually kinda works is J & S http://www.jandssafeguard.com . Based on Porsche’s KLR which is basically boost-controller/ignition piggyback that lowers boost and retards ignition when it detects knock.

But even then, many have blown up engines with this system since knock is so extremely difficult to detect at high RPMs. Porsche’s maps are extremely conversative and stays far, far away from knock region, so sensor is really backup safety measure for worse-case scenarios of super hot days and bad petrol. I can extract +100bhp from Porsche turbo engine by just tweaking maps alone! But you risk blown-up engine being that close to edge of destruction!

Best signal-processor to detect knock is human brain!!!
https://linkecu.com/tech-articles/knockblock-explained/
https://tunertools.com/products/link-g4-knock-block
I have used devices that detect knock and blinks lights along with datalogging knock counts. Nope, not as good as human ears! I can pick it up on dyno runs before any device signals knock. You’ll want to tune on dyno as there’s just too much extra noise out on road. And you can’t safely focus sufficient attention on engine noises if you have to worry about riding bike at +100mph and watching out for traffic.

Best to tune on dyno based upon BMT - best mean (ave) torque output. Start with conservative ignition settings first, then gradually advance ignition. Look at dyno chart and notice how much TQ increases for each degree of advance. Best settting is when you notice TQ no longer increases at same rate when ignition is advanced another degree. Then back off a degree. This approach is way, way safer than having way too much ignition-advance like you have now. Start around 30-degrees in high-load range.

This also gives you richer AFR as well. BTW, how are you measuring AFR? Hopefully not with O2-sensors that came with Ecotrons kit! You’ll want to target 11.5:1 under high-loads for boosted engines. Doesn’t sacrifice any power, but much, much safer for engine. Here’s good discussion on tuning ignition maps: https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewt...p?f=94&t=26725

Basic tuning guide: http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/tune.htm

i’ve downloaded your Procal file, I’ll see if I can tweak it. Perhaps import EU N250/N300 EFI ignition maps as baseline. You really need to get larger injectors, VE table is simply trying to compensate for too-small injectors and it’s not accurate. What pump are you using and what is its flow-rating?

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; September 13th, 2021 at 12:13 AM.
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Old September 12th, 2021, 05:31 PM   #32
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The pump is the ecotrons middle one 45L per hour. The pump seems ok pressure and flow wise. I havenít had a camera on the guage for my regulator while running high rpm so it could be that. I really did want to find a better pump and maybe just leave this one around for backup. Currant pump is basically the size of a car pump but with bungs. I modified some 300 throttle bodies to fit the injectors out of a ninja 400 into I just need to put it in and I was hoping to ride it a bit first but if the injectors are a problem I will do it. Fueling seemed pretty good to me I know itís probably close to maxed but it reads ok for what Iíve been doing. Just nice to get out riding again. Iíll look up the 300 ignition maps and try that for now. Then possibly full tear down this winter without removing the head Iíll just check it with a camera. Thanks again using eu ignition makes makes a lot of sense never looked them up.
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Old September 13th, 2021, 12:16 AM   #33
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Ninja 300 ignition-maps scaled from 0-100 kpa NA-mode only. That is, max-load row on 300 map should line up with 0psi on Ecotrons map. Then gradually decrease ignition as boost increases. At 5psi, you'll probably want 30-degrees max.
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Old September 13th, 2021, 04:52 AM   #34
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That 30 degrees sounds about right. From what I can find itís hard to say what I should use. The 300 info I found was the usual 2 values 31 degrees max advance I canít find an understandable 3D map for max or min timing. From what Iíve found the 300 is less compression not by much but mine is sort of unknown. I got some weisco 11.5/1 fly cut and took a little over a mm of the top to try and help then I used a 1 mm copper head gasket so Iím hoping Iím lower than 11/1 but I may be over that. Also my min advance map seemed to be more 3D but Iím not sure if itís set up right in the upper rpm aswell I do have to lift eventually lol and it seemed shifts are touchy faster the better. I just imagine thatís also partially the boost falling off but Iím curious if any other boosted engines change things their aswell.
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Old September 14th, 2021, 04:38 PM   #35
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ninja 300 throttle body with 240cc ninja 400 injectors

I just needed to take just a tiny bit out of the interior part of the injector seat off for clearance. Pretty simple then I basically just stacked 3 o-rings to seal it fit is super tight with just the o-rings. The injectors line up perfect for the original fuel rail mounting and looks just like the ninja 400 fit on the inside definitely couldnít have got away with the 250 throttle bodies itís like the 300 was almost made for it.
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Old Yesterday, 02:47 PM   #36
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Unhappy From a running bike to not so much lol

Spent some time trying to get the new injectors in. Got that all done today new bigger throttle bodyís. Changed my injector size in ecotrons to 240 g/per tried to dial my higher end fuel down a bit in the fuel map. Found the manual for the 300 and it lists 2 1/2 turns for the air screws so I set them both to that. Problem now is it wonít start. Almost started got about 7 revolutions then quit. Let it sit tried again got a pretty bad backfire/ out the exhaust bang. Kinda worried to keep trying. Any suggestions I tried to take a bit more fuel. So I put in 250 g/per in the injector spec and still not starting. Running out of ideas? I did hook up the map to both banks of the throttle bodies but Iím almost suspicious about those air mixture screws my old ninja 250 throttle bodies were barely open. One at 1/4 turn one at 1/3? Getting frustrated gonna take a break until later.
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Old Yesterday, 07:44 PM   #37
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
1. what is new injectors' impedance compared to old ones?

2. pull fuel-rail with injectors attached. Aim into small cups and crank for 10s. How much petrol did you collect each?

3. repeat same test with previous injectors and previous settings.
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Old Today, 08:03 AM   #38
Turboninjaproject
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Closer

Useful test for sure. Impedance is very close old 250 injectors were 11.9/12 ohms new bigger injectors are 11.6/11.7 ohms.
The fuel test showed me I had less fuel so I changed injectors for 230 g/per in ecotrons tried it again and my fuel was actually right their almost the same maybe still slightly less but barely. Tried to start it without the charge tube and it starts almost gets going at 1000 rpm longer than b4 ran for 5 seconds about then stalls before it gets to idle? Tried to start again no go then backfire out the exhaust. Taking that as a sort of win it ran longer lol I did play with the idle screw and that almost seems to be it. I think those mixture screws are hindering the adjustment making it tricky. without more than a 5 second run it’s hard to adjust. I just don’t know what it wants the fuel was almost identical. About a full tsp in each cup after roughly 10 seconds of cranking.
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Old Today, 08:40 AM   #39
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
As test control, when you put old injectors in with old settings, does it start, run and idle OK?

Where do you have MAP-sensor plugged in? It needs to be between throttle-butterflies and intake-valves.
With sparks unplugged, measure MAP output-voltage when cranking for 5s. Gives us baseline number for idle.

Other thing to be extremely careful about is battery-voltage and shutdown procedures. It must have +12v and 3-sec of power after shutdown. It rewrites/saves to memory when shutting down and if it doesn't have sufficient power, memory and your maps will be corrupted.
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Old Today, 09:50 AM   #40
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Map sensor is on the back side of the throttle where it was b4. Itís reading when I record a run. I didnít try to start it with the old ones but the fuel was close after I moved the injector value to 230 g/per min. So Iím thinking it would have been the same result. Must be throttle body or the injectors nozzle. My theory is the 300 is more displacement so more air is needed everywhere. Making it too lean for what Iím trying to do probably with less fuel and my volume is bigger. So I may still be lean at that rpm? Going from 240 to 230 seemed to help and made a big difference In the flow amount for some reason it was a lot more. I thought something was wrong with them set to 240 they basically barely wet the cup. At 230 I got a tsp. Maybe Iíll go to 228ish just to try while itís together with a bit of mixture screwed in.
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