Crack or Roll?

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by Misti

Just want to clarify here WHEN exactly the throttle is rolled on...do you want to be rolling it on AS you are turning the bike or rolling it on once the bike is turned and set at the lean angle you want? Why?

Misti

Once I am turned.

I do not ride track (yet) but when canyon riding I will either trail brake toward the turn apex and sneak on throttle once I am off the brakes or if not trail braking, sneak on the throttle as I bank. Why? Because rolling on slightly unloads the front tire, loads the rear, thus giving me a little more traction from both ends of the bike. It's all about conserving traction, isn't it?

Mitsi, for the new riders out there (there are plenty here), could you explain the benefits of all this throttle talk. I understand where you are coming from by posing leading questions which make us think about how we ride. However, I'm sure a lot of this technical back-and-forth might be confusing to the newbies out there who are struggling with the basic mechanics of riding.

[Rosie]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Once I am turned.
However, I'm sure a lot of this technical back-and-forth might be confusing to the newbies out there who are struggling with the basic mechanics of riding.

Yep.. I'd really like to see the correct answers to these questions
I'm still learning and this is good info for me!

[backinthesaddleagain]

+1

[spooph]

So, this last weekend I went to the track, and kept this conversation in mind, and oh boy....

Brake brake brake up to a corner, let go of the brake and straight on the gas (just a positive touch) to keep the bike stable, then ease the throttle open towards the apex, and snap it open past the apex....

What did I learn - that I'm braking WAY too much! If my tire can handle the WOT past the apex, it can handle a bit more corner speed... So I went in hotter and hotter, simply decreasing the amount of brake before each turn, but still, as soon as I dip the bike into the corner, I'm on the throttle to stabalize the bike, more and more towards the apex, and quickly to WOT past the Apex!

I had never though of it in such a detailed fashion Misti! Thanks for the discussion and tips, and I had no idea paying attention to my throttle would teach me about the adhesion limit of my tires.... Not that I found it yet, but maybe one day... Cool, keep it coming!

edit: This is REALLY difficult to feel on the street, being that many times I don't even use the brake, but just engine brake before I pitch it into a corner, and then rarely does it go to WOT because of traffic..... I really needed the track to understand this situation.

And being that I'm a shameless self-promoter, I'm gonna post this here:

[JMcDonald]

Thanks for that info, spooph!
Posted via Mobile Device

[ally99]

Nice pic, Spooph!
I agree, rarely are these techniques used on the street (unless you're lucky enough to only live a couple of hours away from some mountains. )

[TrueFader]

they really let you go out with jeans on?

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by spooph

edit: This is REALLY difficult to feel on the street, being that many times I don't even use the brake, but just engine brake before I pitch it into a corner, and then rarely does it go to WOT because of traffic..... I really needed the track to understand this situation.

No vid?

And +1 to what you said above. A lot of the techniques being mentioned in Keith Code's books (and similar) are really difficult to apply fully to the streets. Especially if you're in the city.

[spooph]

You're welcome McDonald!

Thanks Ally!

Originally Posted by TrueFader

they really let you go out with jeans on?

Yup. It's a go-kart track, and the top speed on the back straight I got to was 70mph, most of the track is 35-45mph for a street bike. It was also quite cold, so none of us really pushed it. You also sign a waiver saying that under no circumstances can you sue them, because you are taking your life into your own hands... They also have a bunch of dirt tracks for those with the knobbies. My leathers weren't ready yet, and I wasn't going to sacrifice such a beautiful so late in the season. So a strapped on my knee guards.... No, not as safe as leathers, and the reason I didn't drag knee, but better than nothing.

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

No vid?

Nope, sorry. The GoPro disappointed me yet again with it's massive appetite for AAA batteries.....

[Misti]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Once I am turned.

I do not ride track (yet) but when canyon riding I will either trail brake toward the turn apex and sneak on throttle once I am off the brakes or if not trail braking, sneak on the throttle as I bank. Why? Because rolling on slightly unloads the front tire, loads the rear, thus giving me a little more traction from both ends of the bike. It's all about conserving traction, isn't it?

Mitsi, for the new riders out there (there are plenty here), could you explain the benefits of all this throttle talk. I understand where you are coming from by posing leading questions which make us think about how we ride. However, I'm sure a lot of this technical back-and-forth might be confusing to the newbies out there who are struggling with the basic mechanics of riding.

Yes, once you are turned. You want to make sure that you have the bike pointed in the direction that you want to go before rolling on the gas, and then as I stated, you want to roll it on evenly, continuously, and smoothly throughout the remainder of the turn.

What would happen if you tried to roll on the gas while you were still steering the bike? Where would it tend to go?

Misti

[Misti]

Originally Posted by spooph

So, this last weekend I went to the track, and kept this conversation in mind, and oh boy....

Brake brake brake up to a corner, let go of the brake and straight on the gas (just a positive touch) to keep the bike stable, then ease the throttle open towards the apex, and snap it open past the apex....

What did I learn - that I'm braking WAY too much! If my tire can handle the WOT past the apex, it can handle a bit more corner speed... So I went in hotter and hotter, simply decreasing the amount of brake before each turn, but still, as soon as I dip the bike into the corner, I'm on the throttle to stabalize the bike, more and more towards the apex, and quickly to WOT past the Apex!

I had never though of it in such a detailed fashion Misti! Thanks for the discussion and tips, and I had no idea paying attention to my throttle would teach me about the adhesion limit of my tires.... Not that I found it yet, but maybe one day... Cool, keep it coming!

This is awesome! A really good story from experience on how rolling on the gas nice and early helps to stabilize the bike. The more stable the bike is, the more traction you will have and the more confidence you will have in the bike and your ability to corner. Sometimes it takes breaking down a technique into little bit size pieces before you can really understand the full effect of it!

It is interesting that you found out you were braking too much and over slowing. How does your entry speed effect when you are able to roll on the gas? What might someone do with their entry speed if they were always rolling on the gas LATE in a corner?

Misti

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by Misti

Yes, once you are turned. You want to make sure that you have the bike pointed in the direction that you want to go before rolling on the gas, and then as I stated, you want to roll it on evenly, continuously, and smoothly throughout the remainder of the turn.

What would happen if you tried to roll on the gas while you were still steering the bike? Where would it tend to go?

Misti

I assume you mean steering the bike into the turn. Rolling on the throttle too early will stand the bike up and make you go wide.

[spooph]

Originally Posted by Misti

How does your entry speed effect when you are able to roll on the gas? What might someone do with their entry speed if they were always rolling on the gas LATE in a corner?

Misti

Well, you be the expert here, but let me give it a shot. If I understand your question correctly, my answer would be: If someone is rolling on the gas late in the corner, that means their entering the turn too fast. They feel the bike still needs to slow down, whether on brakes or through engine braking. Hence holding off on acceleration until they feel comfortable with the corner speed. What I learned concerning this last track day, was that I'd come out of a corner and just whack the throttle open to WOT, feeling like I was going WAY too slow. Next lap I'd enter a bit faster, and get on the throttle earlier. Never did my tires break traction, but I learned my tires are capable of a lot more than I thought, each time "checking" them, you could say "testing" them by opening the throttle more aggressively, and if the rear held, I knew next time I could enter even faster. Is there something dangerous about this method?

Conversely, if they snap open the throttle at the beginning of the turn, they are entering too slow. This is not meant to be in opposition to my previous statement of getting on the throttle as soon as you're done braking. What I mean is, if the throttle gets rolled on quickly/snapped open, beyond say, oh, I don't know, 1/4 throttle at the BEGINNING of the turn, very pre-apex, the entry speed is too slow. If, however, after braking, and pitching the bike into the turn, at the beginning of the turn the rider provides constant "stabilizing" throttle up the apex, let's say, oh 1/4-1/3 throttle, and then after the apex rolls on more throttle till WOT, or whatever the next turn requires, the entering speed was correct. How's that sound?

[Misti]

Originally Posted by JeffM

I assume you mean steering the bike into the turn. Rolling on the throttle too early will stand the bike up and make you go wide.

Rolling on the throttle WHILE still steering will have a tendency to push the rider wide and will force them to use more lean angle then necessary (they will lean the bike over farther when they realize they are running wide) this is why it is important to get the bike TURNED and set on the lean angle you want before rolling on the gas. However, if you get the bike turned quickly you can roll on the gas IMMEDIATELY after and continue to roll on the gas throughout the remainder of the turn and the bike will maintain a consistent line. Did that make sense?

Originally Posted by spooph

Well, you be the expert here, but let me give it a shot. If I understand your question correctly, my answer would be: If someone is rolling on the gas late in the corner, that means their entering the turn too fast. They feel the bike still needs to slow down, whether on brakes or through engine braking. Hence holding off on acceleration until they feel comfortable with the corner speed. What I learned concerning this last track day, was that I'd come out of a corner and just whack the throttle open to WOT, feeling like I was going WAY too slow. Next lap I'd enter a bit faster, and get on the throttle earlier. Never did my tires break traction, but I learned my tires are capable of a lot more than I thought, each time "checking" them, you could say "testing" them by opening the throttle more aggressively, and if the rear held, I knew next time I could enter even faster. Is there something dangerous about this method?

Conversely, if they snap open the throttle at the beginning of the turn, they are entering too slow. This is not meant to be in opposition to my previous statement of getting on the throttle as soon as you're done braking. What I mean is, if the throttle gets rolled on quickly/snapped open, beyond say, oh, I don't know, 1/4 throttle at the BEGINNING of the turn, very pre-apex, the entry speed is too slow. If, however, after braking, and pitching the bike into the turn, at the beginning of the turn the rider provides constant "stabilizing" throttle up the apex, let's say, oh 1/4-1/3 throttle, and then after the apex rolls on more throttle till WOT, or whatever the next turn requires, the entering speed was correct. How's that sound?

The first part sounds bang on, in that the most common cause for riders being late with rolling on the gas is because of a too high or a perceived too high entry speed. When they feel like they are going in too fast for the turn they want to wait and coast until it is "safe" to get back on the gas. What most don't realize is that even when you go into a corner too hot, the best thing to do is to get on the gas in order to get the weight off that front tire and onto the rear, even though it feels like it is the exact wrong thing to do.

As for trying to figure out if you have entered a corner too slowly, I'd rather riders went in too slowly at first and worked on having good throttle control that comes on ASAP once the bike is turned and is rolled on evenly, smoothly and consistently throughout the remainder of the turn (CODE). As they get more and more comfortable with getting on the gas early and rolling it on they can begin to practice rolling it on more aggressively through the turn, and they can work on upping their entry speed a little bit at a time.

I think your method of learning to improve your overall corner speed could be considered a little bit dangerous, especially given your comment about turning the bike, waiting and then whacking on the throttle I think I'd work on getting the throttle cracked on as early as you could in the corners and work on rolling it on harder and harder throughout the entire turn with the goal of ending up WOT. Try to whack it on too early or too soon and you could get a nasty surprise of loss of rear end traction....

Glad you are improving and ride safe!!!

Misti

[spooph]

Thanks for the input. Will do!

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by Misti

Rolling on the throttle WHILE still steering will have a tendency to push the rider wide and will force them to use more lean angle then necessary (they will lean the bike over farther when they realize they are running wide) this is why it is important to get the bike TURNED and set on the lean angle you want before rolling on the gas. However, if you get the bike turned quickly you can roll on the gas IMMEDIATELY after and continue to roll on the gas throughout the remainder of the turn and the bike will maintain a consistent line. Did that make sense?

Yes, thank you.

[JMcDonald]

I need some clarification!

I was thinking "crack" meant go from low / no throttle to WOT as quickly as possible. But, it seems like Misti is talking about "cracking" the throttle to mean keeping it at low openings through the turn, whereas "whack" would mean to go from low / no throttle to WOT as quickly as possible .

Thanks .

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

"whack" would mean to go from low / no throttle to WOT as quickly as possible

Yes.

[JMcDonald]

So the original question was not about how quickly you get to WOT, but rather whether you roll to WOT, or just keep the throttle cracked to maintain speed?

Aarg I had it wrong the whole time :P .

[Bleak21]

Slow, look, press, roll...?

[JMcDonald]

I was confused with the "crack" part. In a decade of dirtbiking everyone I've ever met used "cracking the throttle" to describe opening it from a low throttle position to WOT as quickly as possible.


And in the MSF context, "roll" doesn't actually mean reaching WOT, but just means slowly applying throttle to continue acceleration through the turn.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

I need some clarification!

I was thinking "crack" meant go from low / no throttle to WOT as quickly as possible. But, it seems like Misti is talking about "cracking" the throttle to mean keeping it at low openings through the turn, whereas "whack" would mean to go from low / no throttle to WOT as quickly as possible .

Thanks .

Good question. By "cracked-on" I mean; opened a slight bit into operation. The idea is you want to crack open the throttle ASAP once you turn the bike and you want to roll it on continuously, evenly and smoothly throughout the remainder of the turn. This is to ensure the correct weight transfer, off the front and onto the rear, that will make the bike as stable as possible in the corner.

When and where you get to WOT is going to differ from rider to rider. A beginner rider may roll on the gas evenly, consistently and smoothly through the turn and have a stable bike with good traction but might not get anywhere near WOT. An advanced rider or racer may have a smooth, even and consistent roll on but his goal is to get to WOT asap. Either way the throttle rule remains the same....

Did that clarify?

Misti

[JMcDonald]

Perfectly!!


I usually try to roll, but I have found I almost always enter turns after "straits" faster than I am comfortable**, so I find myself braking or at least rolling off well into the turn. Of course, this is the street so I am not trying to race to the max, so any destabilization from this isn't going to send me out of control. But, I have still been trying to reduce my corner speed so I can get gas on the gas ASAP, and when I have done it right I do feel like I can feel the increase in traction (stability).

**and that is not to say I am uncomfortable when I do this, but I would be uncomfortable with these entrance speeds if I were expecting to continuously accelerate beyond that.

[Domagoj]

Originally Posted by Misti

Good question. By "cracked-on" I mean; opened a slight bit into operation. The idea is you want to crack open the throttle ASAP once you turn the bike and you want to roll it on continuously, evenly and smoothly throughout the remainder of the turn. This is to ensure the correct weight transfer, off the front and onto the rear, that will make the bike as stable as possible in the corner.

When and where you get to WOT is going to differ from rider to rider. A beginner rider may roll on the gas evenly, consistently and smoothly through the turn and have a stable bike with good traction but might not get anywhere near WOT. An advanced rider or racer may have a smooth, even and consistent roll on but his goal is to get to WOT asap. Either way the throttle rule remains the same....

Did that clarify?

Misti

Clarified, but what to do in following everyday situations:

1) uphill turn (weight is already transferred a bit to the back, but the throttle still must be applied or the bike will decelerate rapidly)

2) downhill turn (weight is transferred forward, but that "extra" roll to overcome this makes the bike accelerate rapidly)

3) a turn with a need to slow down (a slower car in front of you, and you didn't see it in a blind turn, or whatever the reason) (slowing down transfers the weight to front, how "bad" this is really, while being leaned 30-35-40-45 degrees off centerline?)

4) forgot this one: riding 2 up in all of mentioned conditions and that regular non elevation changing corner (extra weight in the back at all times)

apologies if i missed answers to these questions

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Domagoj

Clarified, but what to do in following everyday situations:

1) uphill turn (weight is already transferred a bit to the back, but the throttle still must be applied or the bike will decelerate rapidly)

2) downhill turn (weight is transferred forward, but that "extra" roll to overcome this makes the bike accelerate rapidly)

3) a turn with a need to slow down (a slower car in front of you, and you didn't see it in a blind turn, or whatever the reason) (slowing down transfers the weight to front, how "bad" this is really, while being leaned 30-35-40-45 degrees off centerline?)

4) forgot this one: riding 2 up in all of mentioned conditions and that regular non elevation changing corner (extra weight in the back at all times)

apologies if i missed answers to these questions

My opinion is all of those questions can be answered by having 2 common practices well developed: appropriate entry speed and always always always looking as far down the road as possible for everything from cars on the roads to signs marking road changes or intersecting streets.
Knowing proper entry speed for whatever type of corner you are coming upon is a skill that takes many hundreds and thousands of different types of corners to develop. On our bikes, being in the proper gear prior to leaning is also pretty important if you're dealing with major elevation changes. It's a good way to help your bike regulate its speed for the down or uphill. If the corner is going uphill, obviously snick it into a lower gear to have enough pull to keep your RPMS up throughout the corner. Downhill is obviously the opposite to avoid hitting the rev-limiter and not being able to smoothly accelerate. Up hill corners can allow you a faster entry speed and downhill ones require you to enter more slowly. There are so many things that we must be aware of when looking as far down the road as possible, and elevation changes are an example.
To be honest, in all the real world corners I've taken up in the mountains where I'm regularly nearing maximum lean, having a need to slow down mid-corner because of an unseen car is very rare. By looking ahead as far as possible, even prior to entering that corner, I usually know if a car is ahead of me, so I start in slower. However, there are those surprises coming around a corner where someone had stopped at an overlook and pulls out in front of you. Those can be a bit nerve-wrecking which is why a small amount of reserve lean is needed on the streets. Usually, however, there are signs letting you know an overlook or a street is ahead prior to the turn, so again, I know to have a slower entry speed for those.
On regular roads (at least everyday roads here in Ga), if I come up on a car, I'm not close enough to max lean to really matter and can smoothly slow down, mostly by rolling off the throttle a hair.
I have no experience riding 2-up, so I have no idea about that one.

[Domagoj]

Originally Posted by ally99

My opinion is all of those questions can be answered by having 2 common practices well developed: appropriate entry speed and always always always looking as far down the road as possible for everything from cars on the roads to signs marking road changes or intersecting streets.
Knowing proper entry speed for whatever type of corner you are coming upon is a skill that takes many hundreds and thousands of different types of corners to develop. On our bikes, being in the proper gear prior to leaning is also pretty important if you're dealing with major elevation changes. It's a good way to help your bike regulate its speed for the down or uphill. If the corner is going uphill, obviously snick it into a lower gear to have enough pull to keep your RPMS up throughout the corner. Downhill is obviously the opposite to avoid hitting the rev-limiter and not being able to smoothly accelerate. Up hill corners can allow you a faster entry speed and downhill ones require you to enter more slowly. There are so many things that we must be aware of when looking as far down the road as possible, and elevation changes are an example.
To be honest, in all the real world corners I've taken up in the mountains where I'm regularly nearing maximum lean, having a need to slow down mid-corner because of an unseen car is very rare. By looking ahead as far as possible, even prior to entering that corner, I usually know if a car is ahead of me, so I start in slower. However, there are those surprises coming around a corner where someone had stopped at an overlook and pulls out in front of you. Those can be a bit nerve-wrecking which is why a small amount of reserve lean is needed on the streets. Usually, however, there are signs letting you know an overlook or a street is ahead prior to the turn, so again, I know to have a slower entry speed for those.
On regular roads (at least everyday roads here in Ga), if I come up on a car, I'm not close enough to max lean to really matter and can smoothly slow down, mostly by rolling off the throttle a hair.
I have no experience riding 2-up, so I have no idea about that one.

Interesting, so enter speed should be adjusted (faster for uphill and slower for downhill), to be able to roll on through the corner and still have similar exit speed? This does require some lean adjustments through the corner, and makes those corners terribly complicated.

[JMcDonald]

I have been working on slowing my corner speed, and it is amazing the increase in stability. At first I thought it might have just been me imagining it. But, there is this nicely sweeping interstate offramp that turns 270 degrees and ten merges directly into a 40mph city street. I had previously been trying to maintain a constant speed through this curve, and had found I could, at best be at around 50mph by the time I was actualy in one of the strait lanes on the road--any faster and I could start to detect the loss in traction because I was trying to maintain a constant speed. Now, I have been slowing down through the turn (without actually turning very hard), and waiting til the last 90 degrees to accelerate. I have been able to consistently be in the high-50s mph by the time I am on that same strait road after the ramp! Of course, I couldn't say whether slowing down to 40 and then exiting at 60 is faster than maintaining 45-50mph through the whole turn, but it definitely feels more stable.

To clarify, by entering faster, I can't accelerate as hard because of the reduced traction while leaning a little harder and because I am not accelerating. This means my exit speed is significantly lower without really running into traction issues. By allowing myself to accelerate earlier, I can feel the bike "settle," and I get much higher exit speeds. "Slow In, Fast Out" definitely applies here.


There is also another onramp, a quick S-turn with probably 80 degrees in each direction, with no strait-area in-between. I have found reducing my entry-speed by maybe 5mph or so, I can consistently lean harder, shift my weight more, and accelerate harder (about 50mph exit speed rather than about 45mph) without any tire slippage. Before, I would start to feel slippage if I tried to push any harder, because I guess I wasn't accelerating as hard and getting the chassis settled properly.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by ally99

My opinion is all of those questions can be answered by having 2 common practices well developed: appropriate entry speed and always always always looking as far down the road as possible for everything from cars on the roads to signs marking road changes or intersecting streets.
Knowing proper entry speed for whatever type of corner you are coming upon is a skill that takes many hundreds and thousands of different types of corners to develop. On our bikes, being in the proper gear prior to leaning is also pretty important if you're dealing with major elevation changes. It's a good way to help your bike regulate its speed for the down or uphill. If the corner is going uphill, obviously snick it into a lower gear to have enough pull to keep your RPMS up throughout the corner. Downhill is obviously the opposite to avoid hitting the rev-limiter and not being able to smoothly accelerate. Up hill corners can allow you a faster entry speed and downhill ones require you to enter more slowly. There are so many things that we must be aware of when looking as far down the road as possible, and elevation changes are an example.
To be honest, in all the real world corners I've taken up in the mountains where I'm regularly nearing maximum lean, having a need to slow down mid-corner because of an unseen car is very rare. By looking ahead as far as possible, even prior to entering that corner, I usually know if a car is ahead of me, so I start in slower. However, there are those surprises coming around a corner where someone had stopped at an overlook and pulls out in front of you. Those can be a bit nerve-wrecking which is why a small amount of reserve lean is needed on the streets. Usually, however, there are signs letting you know an overlook or a street is ahead prior to the turn, so again, I know to have a slower entry speed for those.
On regular roads (at least everyday roads here in Ga), if I come up on a car, I'm not close enough to max lean to really matter and can smoothly slow down, mostly by rolling off the throttle a hair.
I have no experience riding 2-up, so I have no idea about that one.

Very well said and I agree that a lot of mistakes can be avoided if a) riders learn to judge and set their entry speeds correctly, and b)look far enough down the road to be able to see possible problems early so they have time ro react to them. Nicely put!

Originally Posted by Domagoj

Interesting, so enter speed should be adjusted (faster for uphill and slower for downhill), to be able to roll on through the corner and still have similar exit speed? This does require some lean adjustments through the corner, and makes those corners terribly complicated.

Yes, entry speeds should be adjusted so that you are able to roll on the gas asap once turned and maintain a smooth and consistent roll on throughout the remainder of the corner. This is most important for the downhill turns where then tendency for riders is to enter in too fast and then coast through the turn because they don't feel comfortable rolling on the gas. Entering in at a slower pace will allow you to be able to roll on the gas and roll it on throughout the turn (it doesn't take much of a roll on to achieve the 40%/60% weight balance needed to stabilize the bike) without feeling like you are going too fast for the corner.

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

I have been working on slowing my corner speed, and it is amazing the increase in stability. At first I thought it might have just been me imagining it. But, there is this nicely sweeping interstate offramp that turns 270 degrees and ten merges directly into a 40mph city street. I had previously been trying to maintain a constant speed through this curve, and had found I could, at best be at around 50mph by the time I was actualy in one of the strait lanes on the road--any faster and I could start to detect the loss in traction because I was trying to maintain a constant speed. Now, I have been slowing down through the turn (without actually turning very hard), and waiting til the last 90 degrees to accelerate. I have been able to consistently be in the high-50s mph by the time I am on that same strait road after the ramp! Of course, I couldn't say whether slowing down to 40 and then exiting at 60 is faster than maintaining 45-50mph through the whole turn, but it definitely feels more stable.

To clarify, by entering faster, I can't accelerate as hard because of the reduced traction while leaning a little harder and because I am not accelerating. This means my exit speed is significantly lower without really running into traction issues. By allowing myself to accelerate earlier, I can feel the bike "settle," and I get much higher exit speeds. "Slow In, Fast Out" definitely applies here.
There is also another onramp, a quick S-turn with probably 80 degrees in each direction, with no strait-area in-between. I have found reducing my entry-speed by maybe 5mph or so, I can consistently lean harder, shift my weight more, and accelerate harder (about 50mph exit speed rather than about 45mph) without any tire slippage. Before, I would start to feel slippage if I tried to push any harder, because I guess I wasn't accelerating as hard and getting the chassis settled properly.

This is a good example here of how entering a turn a little bit slower will help you be able to roll on the gas through the turn and have a much more stable bike.

What cues do you take from the road/track that let you know how fast you can/should be going at turn entry?

What are some ways you might be able to improve your ability to judge entry speed?

Misti

[spooph]

Originally Posted by Misti

What cues do you take from the road/track that let you know how fast you can/should be going at turn entry?

What are some ways you might be able to improve your ability to judge entry speed?

Misti

- familiarity with road - how often have I been on this road, and were those times during similar conditions/time of year/ season, etc.
- surface conditions of the road - tar welds, texture (oily chip seal, smooth new micro-porous asphalt, rough, old worn asphalt).
- cleanliness of road - dust, dirt, sand, water, etc.
- direction and contour of road - obviously the direction the road leads in, but more importantly, increasing/decreasing radius, elevation changes, on/off camber.

Learn to "bounce" your eyes from directly in front of you to mid-way through the turn, to the leading edge of what you can see of the road (as I term it, the "horizon" of the road). This is more important on the road than the track, being that the road is dirtier than the track, and has things like boulder, and small children walking deer across the road.... On the track, with it's greater speed and cleaner, safer surface, its better to follow the "horizon" of the track. Look where you want to go, and don't target fixate...

[JMcDonald]

Today, I really got on throttle in 1st pulling off for a left-turn through a 5-lane intersection (not busy though). I was amazed to look down and see I was doing 40mph as I stood the bike up, which is way faster than Ive turned there before :O .

Thanks Misti and Ninjette gang!
Posted via Mobile Device

[Domagoj]

Originally Posted by spooph

- familiarity with road - how often have I been on this road, and were those times during similar conditions/time of year/ season, etc.
- surface conditions of the road - tar welds, texture (oily chip seal, smooth new micro-porous asphalt, rough, old worn asphalt).
- cleanliness of road - dust, dirt, sand, water, etc.
- direction and contour of road - obviously the direction the road leads in, but more importantly, increasing/decreasing radius, elevation changes, on/off camber.

Learn to "bounce" your eyes from directly in front of you to mid-way through the turn, to the leading edge of what you can see of the road (as I term it, the "horizon" of the road). This is more important on the road than the track, being that the road is dirtier than the track, and has things like boulder, and small children walking deer across the road.... On the track, with it's greater speed and cleaner, safer surface, its better to follow the "horizon" of the track. Look where you want to go, and don't target fixate...

Im totally with you on this one, but i do have some additional details to add...
- familiarity of the road is a mixed blessing. At the times it makes you less careful then you might have been on a new road. I experienced this myself on a s exit ramp which is kind off cut in into the hill. So you lean in right and have an immediate left, but you dont see that much in front of you. The road itself is great and cambers nicely, and drainage is good so even in the wet you can get some good speeds there, usually at least twice of the usual car pace. I take that ramp every day on my return home, and the usual tactics is to leave huge space between yourself and the last car which took the ramp. One day i had a stupid cager just parked there in the middle of the road, with his warning triangle on his rear bumper. It was a panicky brake/further lean which ended ok (thank God), but it was a terrible scare, and i am not happy with how i did it or how stupid i was.

- surface conditions check and turn radius/camber/elevation; this one i believe is covered with late turn entry, as you are able to see a lot in front of you while still upright and able to maneuver yourself out or even brake if necessary. Once you lean, i personally found it best to look further down the road and further into the turn, as checking pavement at that point makes you look down and (at least in my case) triggers that "omg im going too fast" set of mind which just makes things very bad. And rear slipping is not so terrible, if you just let the bike slip and regain traction again. Trying to do something about it IS bad. (my first crash was a result of chopping the throttle mid turn upon rear slip) Mastering this is why i want that dirt bike, which i still didnt buy.

so how wrong am i here?

[JMcDonald]

Originally Posted by Domagoj

And rear slipping is not so terrible, if you just let the bike slip and regain traction again. Trying to do something about it IS bad. (my first crash was a result of chopping the throttle mid turn upon rear slip)

Aint that the truth! It took me forever to stop trying to correct high-speed rear-end slides on dirt, but on the street I've been pretty good about not trying to make immediate corrections when this occurs. One time--the first time I was trying to stick my inside knee out rather than using it to grip the tank, the extra freedom of movement caused me to shift my weight back and forth on the pegs, changing the bike's lean angle mid-turn, and causing several rear-end oscillations. It was nerve-wracking, but I was proud that I didn't try to make any corrections. Granted, this all occurred faster than I probably could have made a correction, but at the very least I was excited to see I didn't panic.

*edit*

Granted, now, I definitely don't like rear-end slippage, nor do I just shrug as if it is a normal thing. It tells me I am doing something wrong (for the streets, at least), whether it is coming in too fast, not getting off the bike enough, or simply pushing too hard. But yeah, when it happens, a vast majority of the time it will correct itself if you aren't way into the limit.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by spooph

- familiarity with road - how often have I been on this road, and were those times during similar conditions/time of year/ season, etc.
- surface conditions of the road - tar welds, texture (oily chip seal, smooth new micro-porous asphalt, rough, old worn asphalt).
- cleanliness of road - dust, dirt, sand, water, etc.
- direction and contour of road - obviously the direction the road leads in, but more importantly, increasing/decreasing radius, elevation changes, on/off camber.

Learn to "bounce" your eyes from directly in front of you to mid-way through the turn, to the leading edge of what you can see of the road (as I term it, the "horizon" of the road). This is more important on the road than the track, being that the road is dirtier than the track, and has things like boulder, and small children walking deer across the road.... On the track, with it's greater speed and cleaner, safer surface, its better to follow the "horizon" of the track. Look where you want to go, and don't target fixate...

Some really good points here. I like the method of moving your eyes up the road as you are riding from directly in front of you to the middle of the turn and then past that.

Now, what about the timing of all this? When you guys are riding, when would you say you look into the turn (towards the apex or the middle where you want to be) would you say you look at the same time as you turn the bike or just before. How might the timing of WHEN you look into the corner effect things like accuracy of your line and your entry speed?

Misti

[spooph]

Difficult question Misti... My eyes are all over the place, all the time, when I'm on the street.... Especially in the mountains. Looking for animals, sand, dirt, leaves, pot holes, tar welds, etc....

I guess, most of the time I scan through the corner to as far as I can see to check what's up ahead a ways, and then I bounce my eyes back to about 10 feet in front of me to check the road surface. If I'm going at a good pace, I'll bump the eyes to about mid-way before returning them to the horizon. As more of the turn reveals itself I then go back to the leading edge, 10ft in front, middle, leading edge, and so I repeat.

Unless it's a scenic and relaxing ride and I come to a stop within a specific distance (let's call it 50ft), at which case, going at 40mph I mainly scan the edges of the road for animals.

On the track: I pretty try and keep my eyes on where I want to go. Coming up to a turn I look for the Apex. Once the bike is tipped in to run the run the line I chose (out-in-out) I move my eyes to the exit. When I hit the apex and the bike lined up for the exit, I move my eyes to the next corner, so I guess my eyes are always one step ahead of where the bike is. I've been trying to push my eyes even further ahead, but have found I don't know the bike THAT well, yet...

Critique, critique!

[Misti]

Originally Posted by spooph

Difficult question Misti... My eyes are all over the place, all the time, when I'm on the street.... Especially in the mountains. Looking for animals, sand, dirt, leaves, pot holes, tar welds, etc....

I guess, most of the time I scan through the corner to as far as I can see to check what's up ahead a ways, and then I bounce my eyes back to about 10 feet in front of me to check the road surface. If I'm going at a good pace, I'll bump the eyes to about mid-way before returning them to the horizon. As more of the turn reveals itself I then go back to the leading edge, 10ft in front, middle, leading edge, and so I repeat.

Unless it's a scenic and relaxing ride and I come to a stop within a specific distance (let's call it 50ft), at which case, going at 40mph I mainly scan the edges of the road for animals.

On the track: I pretty try and keep my eyes on where I want to go. Coming up to a turn I look for the Apex. Once the bike is tipped in to run the run the line I chose (out-in-out) I move my eyes to the exit. When I hit the apex and the bike lined up for the exit, I move my eyes to the next corner, so I guess my eyes are always one step ahead of where the bike is. I've been trying to push my eyes even further ahead, but have found I don't know the bike THAT well, yet...

Critique, critique!

Hahahaha glad you like being critiqued Here goes....

I really like the way you describe your visual skills when riding on the track, you say you look where you want to go and that you move your eyes from one point (the apex to the exit to the next corner). Always one step ahead and this sounds perfect. By looking to the point you want your bike to go, like the apex, starting to go there and then looking to the next point you are enabling yourself to get to those specific places in a smooth manner. The bike goes where you look so the more specific you can be the better and the smoother you can make the transition from looking from the apex to the exit to the next turn, the smoother all your inputs will be.

Now, why can't this be done in the same manner on the street? On the street you describe your eyes as moving around and bouncing from up ahead back to 10 feet in front of you and up again. While I acknowledge that there are more dangers on the street that you need to watch out for, I am a bit concerned that your eyes are almost "hunting" for danger as opposed to taking in a very smooth flow of info. Do you think you could approach riding on the street with the same kind of visual flow as you do on the track?

Misti

[JMcDonald]

It is amazing the difference these techniques have made. I ran into a couple friends of mine on their 600s, and in running on and off the interstate through twisty on and offramps it would get to the point where I would have to slow down and wait on the highway for them to catch up before I lost them on the next ramp.

Thanks Misti! >
Posted via Mobile Device

[spooph]

mmmm, again, an interesting question Misti, concerning hunting for danger on the street.

Well, the thing with the eyes at the track is that maybe 50% of my attention is focused on my eyes, what I see, and where I go. The other 50% is divided up between my balance and accel/decle-o-rometer (inner ear), various pressure points (sense of touch), and RPM/tires squirms (ears). I feel safe not having to worry what's directly in front of my bike... And I do my best to push myself to 100% of what I think I can do, maybe 110%, as growth is necessary....

However, on the street, I don't like to push past 70%, maybe 80, at the max, because of the dangers associated, and how I feel about these dangers. I mean, coming down a canyon at 75mph, in a posted 45 is plenty fast for me. The 600's I ride with will sometimes go faster, but really, at the heart of it, we're all just being irresponsible.... However, while staying legal, I feel safest to "hunt for danger", for I know the "road ride" is WELL within any of the limits of the 250, and my biggest defense against anything happening is my eyes and being able to ID a problem before it reaches me. So I tend to shift my focus to 90% eyes. I mean, shifting/braking (even HARD braking), turning and such maneuvers are pretty darn easy at a legal pace.

What type of suggestions do you have that I'm not seeing?

McDonald - good news! It's fun, isn't it! Now just watch out when those 600's learn to actually ride, you'll be howling for a bigger bike in now time! :P I do every canyon run....

[JMcDonald]

Everytime I find myself wanting a bigger bike, I barely manage to avoid a bunch of trouble that a bigger bike would have thrown me right into . For example, last month I was on the highway, relieving a little stress. I was doing a good bit over the speed limit and was rolling on the throttle to switch lanes and pass this cruiser-type bike. Just as I get next to him a couple lanes over I see the small "Highway Patrol" stickers on his saddlebags and then the shield sewn onto his shoulder. I jam on the brakes and end up next to him at his pace. He looks over at me, I wave shyly, and he just shakes his head. On a 600 I prolly would have been doing a buck-twenty by the time I passed him. at least, I am gonna try to stick with that motivation as long as I can :P .

Back on topic. I find myself having to concentrate a lot on looking out of the turn. I think I tend to do what Spooph does, trying to keep an eye on what my tires are about to hit (paint stripes, tar snakes, acorns, etc). If I can't dodge it or get the bike more upright to traverse the obstacle safely, at least I can be mentally prepared for it so as to not panic when one of the tires suddenly steps out a few inches.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by spooph

mmmm, again, an interesting question Misti, concerning hunting for danger on the street.

What type of suggestions do you have that I'm not seeing?
.

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

Back on topic. I find myself having to concentrate a lot on looking out of the turn. I think I tend to do what Spooph does, trying to keep an eye on what my tires are about to hit (paint stripes, tar snakes, acorns, etc). If I can't dodge it or get the bike more upright to traverse the obstacle safely, at least I can be mentally prepared for it so as to not panic when one of the tires suddenly steps out a few inches.

Well here is the thing, our eyes tend to try to seek out danger which is not necessarily a bad thing, however, when they find it they tend to go into survival mode and fixate on the danger which can become a very bad thing.

When we are riding and we allow our eyes to kind of hunt around and frantically try to "see" everything, or as JMcDonald says "try to keep an eye on what my tires are about to hit," then it becomes much easier for us to target fixate on those things and either lose sight of where we want the bike to end up, or get nervous about riding over the gravel in the road or the paint strip, or the tar snake and allow or bodies to tighten up and get tense.

We tend to go where we look so if we look at the danger there is a bigger chance that we will steer the bike in the direction of that danger.

It is a much better idea to look at where you want to go when riding on the street, to pick a line and smoothly move your vision up the road as far as you can see. By all means you want to be able to keep your awareness around you and able to see danger approaching but the difference is that don't want to be actively looking for it or hunting around for it. Smooth flow of information in = a smooth flow of information out.

Does that make sense?

So with that in mind, how can you train your eyes to stop hunting and staring at danger and to concentrate more on seeing the bigger picture, the safe line, where you WANT to be?

Misti

[JMcDonald]

Yes that does make sense. I think it will be a matter of forcing myself to look ahead despite the fear of not knowing exactly what my tire is about to hit. Then once my mind gets used to the success of this technique and gets comfortable relying on peripheral vision to keep an eye on near-by curbs and such, it will become more second nature.

That sound good?