Dog Bones

[cbinker]

I took the time to work on the 250 today. I have been wanting to adjust there rear ride height since getting stiffer springs in the forks. now that i have done the work I would like to replace the dog bones i got from @Rexbo with some that are 1/4" shorter. anyone have the tools and skills to make me some?

[InvisiBill]

Depending on exactly what you need, this might be an option.

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

FYI, the 39111-1133 dogbones used on the Gen2 EX500 are 157.5mm eye to eye.

FOG over on the 500 forum makes some. He has a standard length to use on the 500 for ideal rear end adjustment, but he will make custom ones to whatever length you want. http://www.ex-500.com/index.php/topic,5176.0.html

[subxero]

PM Bigballsofpaint or TnNinjaGirl.

Jay "bigballsofpaint" can CNC stuff on occasion. He has made some brake conversion adapters in the past. Get him dimensions, I think he prefers them in an x/y format as this is how they get entered into the machine software? I could be wrong, it probably doesn't matter either way, he could clarify.

Corey "TnNinjaGirl" says she can water jet some parts. I am not entirely sure what the capabilities of water jet systems are but doggy bones are pretty simple.

I am going to see if either of those 2 can make me up some dog bones for my project bike. I need to figure out the dimensions first though.

Could do it yourself if you have band saw, grinder, drill press. Just buy some quality T6 plate and work away. 8"x8"x0.25" plate is like $20 shipped I think from online metals. Can't remember exactly

[DCMoney]

I made some a few years ago that myself and a bunch of my friends ran out of rod ends and a turnbuckle.

Have 2 different length turnbuckles, the shorter of the two allowed for something stupid like 3in of height added to the rear.

Got a few left if you're interested.

Pics are prior to locking nuts installed.

[DmbShn41]

Originally Posted by DCMoney

I made some a few years ago that myself and a bunch of my friends ran out of rod ends and a turnbuckle.

Have 2 different length turnbuckles, the shorter of the two allowed for something stupid like 3in of height added to the rear.

Got a few left if you're interested.

Pics are prior to locking nuts installed.

This would be the way to go. Gives you adjustability for different situations, like when you think, draw, and design it all, make it, the. Find out your measurements didn't get you the end result....if you were to do this, I would invest in stainless hardware as that part of bike is exposed to the elements. 304 or 316 grade would be ideal, 18-8 also would work. That's what most stainless hardware is. Ask me how I know about adjustability...

[cbinker]

I ended up putting the stock rear shock back onto the bike and dropped the front about 1".
took it for a ride around the block, cannot wait to get a track day and test it.

[MattRichling]

What parts are needed for the above? subscribed!

[DmbShn41]

Let's start with the rod ends: anyone remember the thread size of the mounting bolts for shock? Are they same top to bottom? Remember for these rod ends to work correctly, one needs to be right hand thread, the other left hand thread.

May be able to get these thru McMaster....

[Somchai]

The rod ends with the turnbuckle are looking really nice
But I ask myself if those give the same stability, because of their thread, like the dog bones do?

[DCMoney]

Here's everything I ordered.

http://www.midwestcontrol.com/part.php?id=522

http://www.midwestcontrol.com/part.php?id=523

http://www.midwestcontrol.com/part.php?id=3432

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/121/3187/=y17pry

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/121/3186/=y17q01

[DCMoney]

Originally Posted by Somchai

The rod ends with the turnbuckle are looking really nice
But I ask myself if those give the same stability, because of their thread, like the dog bones do?

No issues.

[MattRichling]

I guess with these adjustable ones, you just need to have longer bolts to accommodate the wider dog bone?

Interesting for sure!

[DCMoney]

Originally Posted by MattRichling

I guess with these adjustable ones, you just need to have longer bolts to accommodate the wider dog bone?

Interesting for sure!

I already had the GSXR rear done so the bolts were longer for that, so I can't say how long the bolts need to be if using the oem shock.

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by MattRichling

I guess with these adjustable ones, you just need to have longer bolts to accommodate the wider dog bone?

Interesting for sure!

The measurement from the rod ends should be ~16 mm each, so the bolts have to be 32 mm longer.
Maybe @DCMoney, could confirm this?
@DCMoney, many guys complain that the swing arm, or at least the whole Ninja (including the front) isn't the most stable bike, so you must not have the feeling about any issues.

[DCMoney]

Originally Posted by Somchai

The measurement from the rod ends should be ~16 mm each, so the bolts have to be 32 mm longer.
Maybe @DCMoney, could confirm this?
@DCMoney, many guys complain that the swing arm, or at least the whole Ninja (including the front) isn't the most stable bike, so you must not have the feeling about any issues.

I don't have any 250s anymore. Sorry.

It's not the adjustable dog bones causing the bike to feel unstable it's the economically driven design and built bike being pushed.

[DmbShn41]

The dog bones are obviously stout enough to support the current load that is placed in the bike, and aftermarket dog bones are obviously acceptable also. From a structural point, I don't see how this can hurt at all. It simply gives you adjustability without having to change dog bones, I would imagine at a cheaper cost, def cheaper than multiple set of dog bones. For example, if you prefer a different rear height for track over street, or much like the GSXR shock swap, the ability to fine tune a specific setting that works for you and your specific situation.

I'm checking thru the links that @DCMoney provided to tally a parts list and cost.

[DmbShn41]

Originally Posted by DCMoney

I don't have any 250s anymore. Sorry.

It's not the adjustable dog bones causing the bike to feel unstable it's the economically driven design and built bike being pushed.

Do you still have the adjustable dog bones? You said that the shorthorn gave you ridiculous rear lift. How close were you able to get back to stock rear height? Were you able to use either set to achieve 158mm or so center to center? I'm running the math, and trying to understand if you were able to achieve that with these parts.

[DCMoney]

Originally Posted by DmbShn41

Do you still have the adjustable dog bones? You said that the shorthorn gave you ridiculous rear lift. How close were you able to get back to stock rear height? Were you able to use either set to achieve 158mm or so center to center? I'm running the math, and trying to understand if you were able to achieve that with these parts.

I bought enough to make 10 sets, think I have a set or two left.

I was able to go to ~3" in height over stock with the shorter of the two turnbuckles. I set my rear to half an inch taller than stock.

I dont know the exact length I used but Ill take some measurements tonight and let you know. Quick calc tells me using the 70mm turnbuckle I should be able to get to 142mm in length.

[MattRichling]

Originally Posted by DCMoney

Here's everything I ordered.

http://www.midwestcontrol.com/part.php?id=522

http://www.midwestcontrol.com/part.php?id=523

http://www.midwestcontrol.com/part.php?id=3432

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/121/3187/=y17pry

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/121/3186/=y17q01

Jesus... my local fastner place just quoted me $160 cdn... for everything above (well, two sets).

[DCMoney]

Originally Posted by MattRichling

Jesus... my local fastner place just quoted me $160 cdn... for everything above (well, two sets).

I bought 10 of each to get the quantity discount, cost in parts was $29 a set.

[DmbShn41]

I'm checking one more source, but stainless may make this out of reach. The options that DCMoney listed were decent, and I think that type of hardware will do just fine. I only mentioned stainless as I work with it everyday, and you wouldn't believe how well it stands up to harsh environments and conditions.

I think that $30-40 for a set of these is reasonable. Gives you adjustability, allows you to change from one dog bone size to the next, much quicker than actually swapping dog bones, and is roughly the same price as two sets of dog bones. Plus, depending on which size of turn buckle you select, you may be able to hit 3 different sizes of dog bones with one set of these.

Also, check Amazon for these also. I found locking nuts there much cheaper than McMaster, which was a 5pk, where as I only needed two of that size. I haven't ordered anything just yet, trying to find a mix of cheapest sites and sources and will post here. Thanks for all the info everyone.

[95PGTTech]

Originally Posted by DCMoney

I made some a few years ago that myself and a bunch of my friends ran out of rod ends and a turnbuckle.

Have 2 different length turnbuckles, the shorter of the two allowed for something stupid like 3in of height added to the rear.

Got a few left if you're interested.

Pics are prior to locking nuts installed.

Have any left?
PM price shipped to 08505

[Somchai]

In another thread I've made this comment: 'And let me say one more thing and here to make it easy to understand I'll compare this to the German Football (Soccer) Team: There is one trainer but 80 million experts (all of the German population, except me) who know better how they should play their game.
And so one should understand the forums in the www, there you'll find some guys with real knowledge what they've learned, but hundreds of thousands experts with a visual knowledge and this they think is growing with the cc of their bikes.' - it also would be good here after reading some answers.

From a very experienced German Company I've translated what they say about the strut deflection of the suspension and take a look at their adjustable dog bones.
Translation:
'Redirection & Strut
Suspension problems are often caused by unnecessary play in the strut deflection and the damper bearing.
Due to the gear ratios at strut deflections a game optimization affects exponentially.
This figure demonstrates a match in the inner ring needle roller bearings of 0.08 mm.
Conversion to precision bearings
Strut bearings are replaced by us by absolutely backlash-free needle bearings.
Lever also be performed without backlash. For this reason, the rocker has no game more (unloaded condition - hand sample).
The friction of the needle bearing is compared to plain bearings ie linear no change in the damping behavior.
Thus, the search for the optimum suspension setup is greatly simplified.
We could also notice a significantly reduced tire wear and in tests and competitions.
Strut mounts after reconstruction.'
Link: http://www.emilschwarz.de/dev/index.php?id=203
And here their dog bone: http://www.emilschwarz.de/dev/index.php?id=204

[DCMoney]

Originally Posted by 95PGTTech

Have any left?
PM price shipped to 08505

I checked last night and I'm all out. Sorry.

[DmbShn41]

Originally Posted by Somchai

In another thread I've made this comment: 'And let me say one more thing and here to make it easy to understand I'll compare this to the German Football (Soccer) Team: There is one trainer but 80 million experts (all of the German population, except me) who know better how they should play their game.
And so one should understand the forums in the www, there you'll find some guys with real knowledge what they've learned, but hundreds of thousands experts with a visual knowledge and this they think is growing with the cc of their bikes.' - it also would be good here after reading some answers.

From a very experienced German Company I've translated what they say about the strut deflection of the suspension and take a look at their adjustable dog bones.
Translation:
'Redirection & Strut
Suspension problems are often caused by unnecessary play in the strut deflection and the damper bearing.
Due to the gear ratios at strut deflections a game optimization affects exponentially.
This figure demonstrates a match in the inner ring needle roller bearings of 0.08 mm.
Conversion to precision bearings
Strut bearings are replaced by us by absolutely backlash-free needle bearings.
Lever also be performed without backlash. For this reason, the rocker has no game more (unloaded condition - hand sample).
The friction of the needle bearing is compared to plain bearings ie linear no change in the damping behavior.
Thus, the search for the optimum suspension setup is greatly simplified.
We could also notice a significantly reduced tire wear and in tests and competitions.
Strut mounts after reconstruction.'
Link: http://www.emilschwarz.de/dev/index.php?id=203
And here their dog bone: http://www.emilschwarz.de/dev/index.php?id=204

I'm certainly no suspension or motorcycle expert, but by trade I'm an engineer, so I understand this as it relates to bikes in general. I checked out the link to the dog bones, and seen a similar item to what DCMoney has shown us. Help me understand, are you supporting this 'adjustable dog bone' or downplaying it?

Thanks~

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by DmbShn41

I'm certainly no suspension or motorcycle expert, but by trade I'm an engineer, so I understand this as it relates to bikes in general. I checked out the link to the dog bones, and seen a similar item to what DCMoney has shown us. Hell me understand, are you supporting this 'adjustable dog bone' or downplaying it?

Thanks~

I'm not against adjustable dog bones, but what I'm against is this kind of adjustability here in this thread and I'm pretty sure that you as an engineer understand the reason for this.
It is just the play in the rod ends that makes me stay away from this and let me tell you that I've planned to go this way by myself.
I've bought them, but after I felt the play which you're really able to feel and then think of the force in the suspension I can say: THIS IS A NO-GO and not only for the reason of safety.
Also all the advantage of my aluminum swing arm would have been lost.
For better understanding what I talk about look at the picture in the middle of this link: http://www.emilschwarz.de/dev/index.php?id=203

Then also please do yourself a favor, get the following link translated and please read all up to the end http://www.emilschwarz.de/dev/index.php?id=400

And at least, even when they at this company say 'Your Ducati Superbike certainly has one of the best standard suspension in the world.' look what all they change to make it really good.
Download the pdf from here http://www.emilschwarz.de/dev/con/00...cati998.de.pdf , get it translated also and please read it all, too - I guess you'll be surprised like me...

The conclusion at least is, that even in the highest price range, you not always get what you pay for.

The theme of suspension is much to important for safety that you better don't play with it and also don't believe in all those traveling entertainers talking around on the www.

Please understand that with adjustable dog bones you change the progression of the bike and it is well known that for changing the height of the bike it is the best to change the length of the shock.

Good luck for you

[DCMoney]

Since where throwing out titles... BS Mechanical Engineer with minor in Mathematics here. I design machines for a living.

The adjustable dog bones I used are more than capable of anything you can put your 250 through. I used a 90mm tie rod to achieve the most amount of thread engagement while also getting my 1.5in in height back. What was pictured was not the final product. I dont know what play you're talking about in the tire rods.

If these were dangerous we would have countless threads on every forum talking about how "I lowered my bike with adjustable dog bones and it broke" which I have seen none of, but I have seen oem dog bones fail.

[DmbShn41]

I use tie rods all day long in the food industry on mechanical assemblies that seal containers that are used for a variety of shelf stable items, including MRE's for militaries across the world, including the US. These seals stand up temperatures in the 250-275 F range, at about 30 psi of pressure. A sloppy tie Rod would not allow this to work. Slop within a tie rod is very minimal, and yes it can wear, but that would be related to something causing it, and it would take a severe beating to do so.

In terms of raising the rear height and changing dog bones, many of folks here have done the GSXR shock swap, and most have changed the dog bone to get rear height back to stock, or slightly above. Yes if you change it, it can change geometry of the bike, and yes that could be bad if done incorrectly. And I'm not advocating that every 250 owner run out and do this mod. I'm asking the questions as I plan to change to GSXR shock, and want to experiment with different rear heights for what works for me. I don't want to buy multiple dog bones and change them out to find what works, as the best source for dog bones seems to be Burkhardt, and folks have had some hit and misses with getting parts in a timely fashion. No knock on the guy, but I don't want my bike down for weeks waiting on this, nor do I want to do this in the fall. Shock is on its way.

I'll finalize ordering the parts for adjustable dog bone this week and order and test. I agree with DCMoney on this one, can't put enough force to this bike to cause enough of an issue. Kawi may not have designed this, but we're not swapping out a 4cyl Honda and replacing with a V10 Viper engine...

[DCMoney]

DmbShn41

I have a ton of M12 nuts left over (left and right hand threaded) would be happy to send you some to save you on total cost. I'm never going to use them again.

[InvisiBill]

Another option I've seen is a dogbone that has multiple holes on one end. It's not infinitely adjustable like a turnbuckle, but it does give you a handful of different options. If you're not exactly sure of how much you want to change the height, this is a simpler option that still gives you multiple settings.



The small amount of material between the holes bothers me, but I always think everything looks too small to handle what it's supposed to do.

Originally Posted by Somchai

From a very experienced German Company I've translated what they say about the strut deflection of the suspension and take a look at their adjustable dog bones.
Translation:
'Redirection & Strut
Suspension problems are often caused by unnecessary play in the strut deflection and the damper bearing.
Due to the gear ratios at strut deflections a game optimization affects exponentially.
This figure demonstrates a match in the inner ring needle roller bearings of 0.08 mm.
Conversion to precision bearings
Strut bearings are replaced by us by absolutely backlash-free needle bearings.
Lever also be performed without backlash. For this reason, the rocker has no game more (unloaded condition - hand sample).
The friction of the needle bearing is compared to plain bearings ie linear no change in the damping behavior.
Thus, the search for the optimum suspension setup is greatly simplified.
We could also notice a significantly reduced tire wear and in tests and competitions.
Strut mounts after reconstruction.'
Link: http://www.emilschwarz.de/dev/index.php?id=203
And here their dog bone: http://www.emilschwarz.de/dev/index.php?id=204

Were you just using the first link (Google translation) as an example to show that there can be noticeable play in those? The page appears to be regarding the mount of the actual shock (strut), not anything about the dogbones.

However, it might be cheaper for the DIYers if you can find threaded ends that don't have the bushing in them, as seen at the bottom of the second page (Google translation). The dogbones bolt securely to the bushings (the "42036" parts in the diagram) that pass through the suspension arm, and the bushings rotate as the suspension moves. There's no need to have the rotating bushing in the rod end, so eliminating it should make things cheaper I would assume, and would inherently avoid the issue of play in the bushing. It's also possible the ends could be the same thickness as stock to avoid needing new bolts, though I'm not sure if there would be clearance issues with the turnbuckle.

Originally Posted by Somchai

Please understand that with adjustable dog bones you change the progression of the bike and it is well known that for changing the height of the bike it is the best to change the length of the shock.

I'm not sure that's true for our particular suspension setup (there are a lot of ways to make a rear suspension). The shock and suspension arm stay in the same place, while the alternate dogbone just moves the swingarm closer to or further from the suspension parts. The swingarm does pivot on a point outside the shock/arm, so utilizing a different section of its arc might change the force exerted on it through the dogbone. But the shock/arm and the swingarm are both still moving in the same arcs as stock, just with their positions relative to each other slightly altered.

When you change the shock length, you're altering the arc of the suspension arm. That seems like it would have a much more drastic effect on how the suspension actually behaves. The general thought on it over on the 500 forum seems to be that changing the dogbones has the least effect on rear suspension action.

I'm in no way an expert on this, I just have a very logical, engineer-y, problem-solving mind. What I'm seeing/saying makes perfect sense to me, but I'm more than happy to learn something new if that's not the case.

[DCMoney]

I looked for solid rod ends and couldn't find one I liked that was cheaper than just using the rod ends posted above.

There will be turnbuckle clearance issues if you don't use longer bolts and some spacers. The turnbuckle will rub on the spring.

[DCMoney]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

Another option I've seen is a dogbone that has multiple holes on one end. It's not infinitely adjustable like a turnbuckle, but it does give you a handful of different options. If you're not exactly sure of how much you want to change the height, this is a simpler option that still gives you multiple settings.



The small amount of material between the holes bothers me, but I always think everything looks too small to handle what it's supposed to do.

Those are typically for lowering a bike.

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

The page appears to be regarding the mount of the actual shock (strut), not anything about the dogbones.

Yes, you're right with that, but I guess with this statement you won't say that a part designed for a motorcycle is weaker than a part that is NOT thought to be mounted to or at a motorcycle?
With saying this, when even the shock at this point is to be told as not optimal or weak, so what is a non-professional produced part to be called?
Here at this point I now leave the discussion because this is not serious and from my pov not worth it anymore.

[DmbShn41]

Originally Posted by Somchai

Yes, you're right with that, but I guess with this statement you won't say that a part designed for a motorcycle is weaker than a part that is NOT thought to be mounted to or at a motorcycle?
With saying this, when even the shock at this point is to be told as not optimal or weak, so what is a non-professional produced part to be called?
Here at this point I now leave the discussion because this is not serious and from my pov not worth it anymore.

Somchai, no need to be mad over this. Differing opinions are always welcome and I personally look forward to it here as its a view from the other side to help make an educated decision. And part of the learning process here is finding what works and doesn't work. There have been countless projects here that started bright, and then didn't work due to a variety of issues, and the forum has contributed to help the process.

Where my concern comes in to this is that the normal aftermarket dog bones are aluminum, which is a soft metal, even at T6061, which is most common, and most likely what the aftermarket items are made of. I think many parts for our bike are fine to be made out of this. I personally have made several sets of rear spools out of T6061 and have given them to friends and use on me bike, as that material fits that application. I'm not so high on using aluminum on the dog bones, part of why is the pic that DCMoney posted, and the reason is that aluminum can flex and wear. The holes can develop slop, more so than a rod end.

InvisiBill mentioned a solid tie rod, which I explored prior to settling on a standard tie rod end. And if I fail or succeed, I'll post the results, and we'll go from there.

But please keep the comments and posts coming though, as I enjoy your thoughts oaths and other items within the forum.

[choneofakind]

Yeah, sorry Roland; you're clueless.

I've been using a very similar dogbone to those shown in this thread without issue or slop for 10,000+ miles. Mine were made by Soupy's Performance, made shorter for raising, rather than lowering. Yes, if we change the length of one linkage in a four-bar system, we will change the velocity of other linkages as the system moves through its' range of motion. Aka, you'll change the damping requirement of the shock a little bit. However, you'd also experience a similar change in damping requirements by using an aftermarket shock that can change length for height adjustment (as you suggest) because your four-bar system will rest in a different orientation than stock, soooooooooooo... stop getting all superior on us here, please.

You and I have discussed the suspension before. It's a 4-bar linkage system. I've even given you resources so you can learn about it, which you poo-poo'd because it made things too complicated for you.

Motorcycle specific part or not carries no relevance. All that matters is the material properties, part geometry, and loading. When in doubt, overbuild with high grade parts that are as heavy duty as you can practically use. I see no issue with these parts at all. Sorry this discussion is not worthy of his highness's time. Us lowly peons will continue on without your input.