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Old March 20th, 2017, 05:23 PM   #41
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what difference does it make if global warming / climate change is "natural" or not. we know co2 is the main contributor to climate change in our current environment. we know what that will do. we don't want that to happen. we can take steps to reduce that. so why not take those steps? if it is natural or not, it will effect us negatively. so why not do something about it?

co2 output of all animals and plants combined including human agriculture is roughly 2% of the total yearly co2 output. human fossil fuel burning is responsible for the other 98%.
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Old March 20th, 2017, 07:52 PM   #42
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I dont think we 'know' any of that. That is what is told to us repeatedly but that doesnt make it true. Its a narritive and nothing more.
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Old March 20th, 2017, 09:45 PM   #43
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what difference does it make if global warming / climate change is "natural" or not. we know co2 is the main contributor to climate change in our current environment. we know what that will do. we don't want that to happen. we can take steps to reduce that. so why not take those steps? if it is natural or not, it will effect us negatively. so why not do something about it?

co2 output of all animals and plants combined including human agriculture is roughly 2% of the total yearly co2 output. human fossil fuel burning is responsible for the other 98%.
Volcanic activity and other cool natural earthy stuff pumps out a small percentage as well.

All the clean air in the world isnt going to help with the overpopulation and everything that comes with it, drought, famine, disease and war.

Look what is going on in the world, africa has millions starving again, they are still breeding though.

Countries which has land to grow crops supply countries that don't, while all countries keep breeding.

The formula for sustainability is simple, yet no one accepts the facts.

Plus with the overuse of land for agriculture is something else to concider.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 05:03 AM   #44
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The formula for sustainability is simple, yet no one accepts the facts.
I find more people recognize over population and there is more in place than you know to try and combat this.

Should there be more done, sure. However, mass killings of human lives just to justify a quick demise in our population isn't exactly smiled upon.

Even if we are to put a ban on the amount of children a family can produce we are still in trouble if that number is two or more.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 06:40 AM   #45
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Science deniers should go join an Amish community.

I do think it is funny how many of you think you are smarter than Stephen Hawking.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 06:53 AM   #46
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I do think it is funny how many of you think you are smarter than Stephen Hawking.
The question I have to ask you is, "To which manifestation of Stephen Hawking are you referring?"

Are you referring to the young, sane, scientifically brilliant Stephen Hawking? Or do you mean the current, aging, apparently batsh!t-crazy Stephen Hawking? (honestly, have you read any of his more recent pronouncements? If you haven't read them, you should. They're pretty cringe-inducing.)

Do I think I'm smarter than Stephen Hawking? A better way to phrase this question might be, "Is it possible that there may be some facet(s) of scientific information that I currently have a better, fuller, more enlightened and broader perspective and understanding of than Stephen Hawking?" And the answer in my case, at the age of 52 with a very well rounded and ongoing education in both societal and cultural issues, is at this point in time probably "yes".
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Old March 21st, 2017, 07:37 AM   #47
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The question I have to ask you is, "To which manifestation of Stephen Hawking are you referring?"

Are you referring to the young, sane, scientifically brilliant Stephen Hawking? Or do you mean the current, aging, apparently batsh!t-crazy Stephen Hawking? (honestly, have you read any of his more recent pronouncements? If you haven't read them, you should. They're pretty cringe-inducing.)

Do I think I'm smarter than Stephen Hawking? A better way to phrase this question might be, "Is it possible that there may be some facet(s) of scientific information that I currently have a better, fuller, more enlightened and broader perspective and understanding of than Stephen Hawking?" And the answer in my case, at the age of 52 with a very well rounded and ongoing education in both societal and cultural issues, is at this point in time probably "yes".
him and 95% of the scientific community. Wow you are smart.

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Old March 21st, 2017, 07:48 AM   #48
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him and 95% of the scientific community. Wow you are smart.

5% paid for by BP, Shell and Exxon
You're on a global warming hair-trigger, aren't you?

Yes, the earth is in a warming phase (this has happened before during other inter-glacial periods). Is there an additional anthropogenic or "man-caused" factor? Could be... but that's not really the important part.

In the book 1984, George Orwell wrote: "Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power."

So relax, it's okay, you're doing fine from the standpoint of what's coming in the near future of globalism (and with the average human lifespan being what it is, the near future is really all you have). You're on the "right side" of the issue, that being the side that will be in power and in control. But will you be walking the halls of power, or just another brown-shirt?
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Old March 21st, 2017, 08:33 AM   #49
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what difference does it make if global warming / climate change is "natural" or not. we know co2 is the main contributor to climate change in our current environment. we know what that will do. we don't want that to happen. we can take steps to reduce that. so why not take those steps? if it is natural or not, it will effect us negatively. so why not do something about it?

co2 output of all animals and plants combined including human agriculture is roughly 2% of the total yearly co2 output. human fossil fuel burning is responsible for the other 98%.
It actually makes a huge difference if climate change is "natural" or not. If it's natural then the assumption that the reduction of anthropegenic CO2 will reduce temperature may not be correct.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 09:00 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by greg737 View Post
You're on a global warming hair-trigger, aren't you?

Yes, the earth is in a warming phase (this has happened before during other inter-glacial periods). Is there an additional anthropogenic or "man-caused" factor? Could be... but that's not really the important part.

In the book 1984, George Orwell wrote: "Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power."

So relax, it's okay, you're doing fine from the standpoint of what's coming in the near future of globalism (and with the average human lifespan being what it is, the near future is really all you have). You're on the "right side" of the issue, that being the side that will be in power and in control. But will you be walking the halls of power, or just another brown-shirt?
It's too hard?
It is not going to affect me, maybe my grandkids but so what?
I'm nobody so I can't do anything about it anyway?
I feel much better, thx :-/
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Old March 21st, 2017, 09:04 AM   #51
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I do think it is funny how many of you think you are smarter than Stephen Hawking.
I taught him everything he knows, and some of what I know!
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Old March 21st, 2017, 09:17 AM   #52
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It's too hard?
It is not going to affect me, maybe my grandkids but so what?
I'm nobody so I can't do anything about it anyway?
I feel much better, thx :-/
In case you're still trying to take my meaning wrongly, which seems to be the case judging from the number of "?" in your last post, I'm not "denying" that the climate is changing over time (that's what it does, real non-fake science has known this for a while now).

I'm just pointing to the near-term future where (predictably, as per the George Orwell quote) the anthropogenic twist (real or not is beside the point) of this fact will be used to establish leverage/power/control in the globalist one-world-order arena.

It is true that there will not be a happy ending to the worldwide fossil fuel orgy that has defined the industrial and post-industrial time periods. In the end our only freedom is to choose one unhappy ending over another. It cuts both ways.

Which leads me back to the "near term future".

How quickly we hand over leverage/power/control to the future globalist climate change dictator is the sort of thing that will affect your grandchildren more than simply letting the current multitude of human societies/cultures play themselves out in the setting of our current fossil fuel orgy.

“Dear future generations: Please accept our apologies. We were rolling drunk on petroleum.” ― Kurt Vonnegut
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Old March 21st, 2017, 09:25 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by greg737 View Post
In case you're still trying to take my meaning wrongly, which seems to be the case judging from the number of "?" in your last post, I'm not "denying" that the climate is changing over time (that's what it does, real non-fake science has known this for a while now).

I'm just pointing to the near-term future where (predictably, as per the George Orwell quote) the anthropogenic twist (real or not is beside the point) of this fact will be used to establish leverage/power/control in the globalist one-world-order arena.

It is true that there will not be a happy ending to the worldwide fossil fuel orgy that has defined the industrial and post-industrial time periods. In the end our only freedom is to choose one unhappy ending over another. It cuts both ways.

Which leads me back to the "near term future".

How quickly we hand over leverage/power/control to the future globalist climate change dictator is the sort of thing that will affect your grandchildren more than simply letting the current multitude of human societies/cultures play themselves out in the setting of our current fossil fuel orgy.

“Dear future generations: Please accept our apologies. We were rolling drunk on petroleum.” ― Kurt Vonnegut
No arguing with science denial.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 09:38 AM   #54
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No arguing with science denial.
Okay, I think I'm getting you. You're actually simpler than I was giving you credit for being.

It appears that you just enjoy the personal warm-n-fuzzy feeling of standing on the moral high ground, looking down in disgust at all the ignorant non-believers.

I was picturing you as the type to march in the streets with the other true believers, but now I see that you're just like me for the most part, which is to say I like riding my motorcycle and driving my car and heating/cooling my home and flying airplanes for a living (and I don't plan on quitting any of these). The only difference is that I don't look down on others who are doing the same sorts of things.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 09:50 AM   #55
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@greg737 I worked for 4 years at Clean Water Action

Mr. Smartypants.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 10:38 AM   #56
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@greg737 I worked for 4 years at Clean Water Action

Mr. Smartypants.
Well bingo!, there you have it...

That was the only other explanation, that you're somebody who sees himself as having a lifetime pass to feel morally superior (while living the same fossil fuel intensive lifestyle as everybody else)
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Old March 21st, 2017, 10:42 AM   #57
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Well bingo!, there you have it...

That was the only other explanation, that you're somebody who sees himself as having a lifetime pass to feel morally superior (while living the same fossil fuel intensive lifestyle as everybody else)
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Old March 21st, 2017, 11:41 AM   #58
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How quickly we hand over leverage/power/control to the future globalist climate change dictator...
I think your tin foil hat is choking off the blood supply to your brain.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 12:28 PM   #59
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Im with Greg on this one. Its ultimately about chipping away at national sovereignty by the Globalists and someone else making a buck at our expense.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 01:04 PM   #60
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another tin foil head science denier.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 01:40 PM   #61
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Show me the proof!

Thats right, you cant. Its impossible to design an experiment which would prove the hypothesis. You would need a time machine as well as total control over the global population.

Heck I just found out petroleum does not come from dead dinosaurs and oil fields replenish themselves to a degree.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 01:45 PM   #62
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Old March 21st, 2017, 01:56 PM   #63
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Wow, if you want prove of human involvement there is a huge amount of data from Ice cores going back hundred of thousand years, also air soil and water sampling going back more than 100 years.

CO2 levels have surpassed all high historical readings, by alot (technical term).

If you are not smart enough for science you should try religion.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 01:57 PM   #64
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mushrooms

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...oal-formation/

Who out here can see why mushrooms make this go around of global warming different?
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Old March 21st, 2017, 02:19 PM   #65
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And yes, I am a hypocrite, I have a motorbike (only a lil 250) and a WRX STI (loves fuel).

But I had a vasectomy, so no more over population for me.

One cancels out the other, am I right, am I, am I right..........................................
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Old March 21st, 2017, 02:27 PM   #66
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Old March 21st, 2017, 02:32 PM   #67
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Wow very good arguments from both sides. I am so glad to see that this forum allows people to have differing opinions without getting too nasty to each other.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 03:56 PM   #68
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Wow very good arguments from both sides. I am so glad to see that this forum allows people to have differing opinions without getting too nasty to each other.
You need to re-read the posts.

Some here feel quite within their rights to depart issue-based debate and get personal with direct insults. Hint: look for posts that use terms such as "tin foil hat" "tin foil head" "science denier" "science denial" "go join an Amish community"
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Old March 21st, 2017, 04:29 PM   #69
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You need to re-read the posts.

Some here feel quite within their rights to depart issue-based debate and get personal with direct insults. Hint: look for posts that use terms such as "tin foil hat" "tin foil head" "science denier" "science denial" "go join an Amish community"
Yes I realized that but am trying to stay positive and try to steer conversation to a little bit more civility but it may be too late.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 04:35 PM   #70
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Old March 21st, 2017, 04:38 PM   #71
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Lmfao!!!!!!
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Old March 21st, 2017, 04:46 PM   #72
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Wow, if you want prove of human involvement there is a huge amount of data from Ice cores going back hundred of thousand years, also air soil and water sampling going back more than 100 yers.
Naaa. I wont argue about that. What I was trying to say is to prove the 'humans are ruining the world thru CO2 emissions' theory, you would have to first kill all humans, then jump X000 yrs into the future and measure the temperature, then jump back to the present and keep allowing the economic use of fossil fuels, then jump X000 yrs into the future again and measure the temp again. Until then, the theory is just a hypothesis. Somehow along the way the narritive turned into (human caused) CC being a scientific fact and necessitating dramatic human action now. But its not. There has not been an experiment which can prove anything because its impossible.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 08:22 PM   #73
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Naaa. I wont argue about that. What I was trying to say is to prove the 'humans are ruining the world thru CO2 emissions' theory, you would have to first kill all humans, then jump X000 yrs into the future and measure the temperature, then jump back to the present and keep allowing the economic use of fossil fuels, then jump X000 yrs into the future again and measure the temp again. Until then, the theory is just a hypothesis. Somehow along the way the narritive turned into (human caused) CC being a scientific fact and necessitating dramatic human action now. But its not. There has not been an experiment which can prove anything because its impossible.
But, you can go into the past, no need for time machines either, the hard evidence is there in geology and ice cores.

You can get 1 billion year old rock from miles below the earth surface and test for CO2.

You can go back hundreds of thousand years with ice cores.

From there you can apply that information to predict the future, from 1 year to 1000 years, its pretty simple really.

Pretty much from around 1940 the % of CO2 has skyrocketed.

Mining, deforestation and pollutants seem like the smoking gun.

The hard data is out there, whether or not it fits in with personal or political views is irrelevant.
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Old March 22nd, 2017, 05:13 AM   #74
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With all of that, all you have shown is the near term CO2 concentrations have gone up. I'll agree to that much. How do you prove a) how much of that was due to human activity and b) how the human co2 contribution is causing a temperature change for the worse? These are the parts which require a controlled experiment and the time machine. Currently the use of climate models are being presented as scientific fact when there is no way to validate them.
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Old March 22nd, 2017, 06:10 AM   #75
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Some of y'all folks have never been to the more remote areas of the world... Over populated my behind, stupid choices an programming definitely.
But feed the feedlots all your food and then wonder why you wasted pounds an pounds of food you could have ate to get less in return, but you get plenty of methane an pollution so Enjoy!
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Old March 22nd, 2017, 01:47 PM   #76
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Volcanic activity and other cool natural earthy stuff pumps out a small percentage as well.

All the clean air in the world isnt going to help with the overpopulation and everything that comes with it, drought, famine, disease and war.

Look what is going on in the world, africa has millions starving again, they are still breeding though.

Countries which has land to grow crops supply countries that don't, while all countries keep breeding.

The formula for sustainability is simple, yet no one accepts the facts.

Plus with the overuse of land for agriculture is something else to concider.
no. volcanic activity and all other natural sources contribute an average between 0.05% to 0.5% and is included in my 2% statistic. but most of the stuff emitted from those sources are generally immediately restored into the earth from other natural processes.

the problems you're presenting are also not caused by clean air or a sustained climate. and dirty air and an out of control climate will only make those problems worse. better control over our climate would help those problems. so i'm not sure why you're trying to raise those issues in response to someone suggesting we better control our climate.

it is also interesting that you suggest that letting everything die is a simple formula for sustainability. i don't think you understand what those words mean if that's really what you're suggesting.
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Old March 22nd, 2017, 01:51 PM   #77
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I blame the cows, and sloths, not that the sloths emit alot of methane, I just dont like their holier than thou attitude.

Stupid sloths.
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Old March 22nd, 2017, 01:52 PM   #78
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It actually makes a huge difference if climate change is "natural" or not. If it's natural then the assumption that the reduction of anthropegenic CO2 will reduce temperature may not be correct.
this is incorrect.
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Old March 22nd, 2017, 01:54 PM   #79
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Old March 22nd, 2017, 01:54 PM   #80
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I blame the cows, and sloths, not that the sloths emit alot of methane, I just dont like their holier than thou attitude.

Stupid sloths.
all of that was included in the 2%.

human fossil fuel burning is responsible for 98% of the co2 output per year. co2 is widely accepted to be the primary contributor to green-house warming. you can see a clear direct correlation between warming and co2 levels. and a clear correlation between increased co2 output and increased warming.

trying to deny this just makes people look like idiots.
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