Missing Rocker arm and valve adjust screw/nut

Ragnar1x · April 21st, 2011, 06:02 PM

So I just bought an 06 250R and it has just about 7000 miles on it. I was informed by this forum to do a valve adjustment. I just got into it today and I found the rocker arm and valve adjustment screw/nut is gone for one of the intake valves. Its just not there. Has anyone seen anything like this before? Any advice on where to buy new parts?

Ragnar1x · April 21st, 2011, 06:37 PM

So I found these parts. http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmot...9804#sch435895

I'm missing 12016, 92009 and 92015. Is there anything that holds down the screw(92009)? Or does it just sit there in the little pocket in the head, and is held in place by the cam?

shiftdrift06 · April 21st, 2011, 07:17 PM

Good thing you went ahead and checked.

So your saying it is completely gone? Have you checked the timing chain opening?
You *might* have internal damage now.

The rocker arm and screw/nut just sits on the the valve. They are held in place by the cam shaft.

kkim · April 21st, 2011, 08:40 PM

John,

Can you take a pic of what you're seeing? I'm just hoping maybe you're not seeing things correctly, somehow. Hard parts like these, loose in an engine, is not a good thing, obviously.

I assume you've looked around the head for evidence of these just lying around, perhaps?

Is there any sign of damage to the other components in the head?

Do you know the previous owner and can you contact them for information on who did the valves last?

I'm surprised the bike runs.

greg737 · April 21st, 2011, 09:46 PM

I guess you have to assume the nut and rocker are still in the engine. Most likely down the cam chain gallery or nestled in an out of the way place below the cam shafts.

I'd look at the entire cam shaft area for evidence of impacts from these parts bouncing around. Maybe you can track them down that way. Maybe get one of those magnetic part-grabbers and fish around down in the cam chain gallery.

Makes me wonder if they could make it all the way to the oil screen?

Ragnar1x · April 22nd, 2011, 12:49 AM

Yeah, I guess I have to assume they are still there. I can't imagine anybody putting it back together without them. I only spent a minute or two looking at it tonight, I'll try and get some pictures tomorrow morning.

When I test rode the bike, it ran ok. I didn't hear any funny noises at all. I rode it to about 9-10k rpms, 1st through 3rd gear. It did feel a little sluggish. The bike went from the test ride to my truck.

Ragnar1x · April 22nd, 2011, 07:25 AM

I did more searching. I found and was able to remove the nut, screw, and HALF of the rocker arm. It was broken in half. Thats why it fell off in the first place. They were all together and fell into the timing chain opening.

Now the second half of the rocker arm is nowhere to be seen. Any body have any ideas on where to look first? I guess I'm going to start with draining the oil and looking at the oil screen and filter.

UPDATE:

I drained the oil and looked at the filter and screen. I saw little to no debris(So at least it wasn't chewing up my engine), but no rocker arm yet. I then took off the clutch cover and BINGO, there was half a rocker arm just sitting there at the bottom of the cover. From here on, I can probably button everything back up and then finally adjust the valves, But my question now is, Has anybody ever seen a rocker arm break in half on these bikes??? I'll post pics of the broken arm. I didn't take many pics of the dis-assembly because the camera battery's were dead.

greg737 · April 22nd, 2011, 09:15 AM

It's great to hear that you're getting this situation sorted out.

Quote:

But my question now is, Has anybody ever seen a rocker arm break in half on these bikes???

Actually, yes. I've seen/heard of numerous cases over the years. The surprising thing is how it typically happens, which is during a valve adjustment.

People unfamiliar with engine maintenance and general wrench-work have a tendancy to over-tighten/over-torque things in the EX-250's head. Sometimes they'll get 6 out of the 8 valves adjusted correctly and really screw up the last 2. You'll get a guy posting on a forum, completely amazed that he's broken one or sometimes two rocker arms while trying to do a valve adjustment (the rocker arm castings really are pretty delicate).

Other times you'll get a guy on a forum complaining that his bike doesn't run well at high RPMs, that it can't go over about 80mph. These are the ones that did the valve job slightly wrong but still got everything put back together and it ran (sort of). The problem is that when you do the valve job slightly wrong the engine can break a rocker arm at start-up and still run pretty good at lower RPMs. In fact, the engine's cylinders actually breathe more efficiently at low RPMs on 2 valves (or maybe 3) than it does on 4, depending on whether it's an intake or exhaust rocker arm that broke, or one of each in a rare case). It's only in the higher RPM range that the engine really depends on the total volume of all 4 valves to get the job done, so it runs out of breath.

It's truly amazing that in most of these cases the EX-250's engine doesn't get damaged. The rocker and nut just end up tucked away somewhere and sit safely out of the way while the engine is running. It may be that the flow of engine oil helps to hold them down. But it can go really badly too, here's an example of just how bad: http://forums.ninja250.org/viewtopic...6024e23a8a9ad2

In fact there's a thread currently on the other forum that I believe could be a case of one or two broken rockers. The guy posting it even mentions that he just did a valve adjustment! Read it if you want to: http://forums.ninja250.org/viewtopic...a8a9ad2#828536

If he did break a rocker arm or two he may never realize it (or believe it could happen if you told him, or even open the valves back up to check). He'll simply become dissatisfied with the bike's performance and sell it to somebody like you who will open up the bike's valve cover and discover the cause, just like you did with your current bike.

Ragnar1x · April 22nd, 2011, 09:26 AM

Good Post, thanks for the info. The valve itself shouldn't be damaged, correct? There is no interference between the piston and the valve? I guess I'm asking, Should I take the valve out and inspect it or just leave it alone?

greg737 · April 22nd, 2011, 09:56 AM

Yes, should be fine. Was it an intake valve or an exhaust valve that has the broken rocker arm?

Anyway, the valve has just been sitting there closed for who knows how long. When the rocker arm broke the valve simply closed that last time and that was that. Everything should be fine when you get a new rocker arm installed. The valve assembly that the rocker arm acts upon(valve, spring, guide) should just go right back to working normally. The only possible problem (and it's a long shot) would be if the valve has seized due to something like carbon buildup at the lip of the valve seat in the cylinder. After you install the new rocker you should turn the engine over gently by hand a few times (and make damn sure you're turing the engine over in it's normal operating direction). If the valve is seized you'll get a front row veiw of the cam lobe snapping the new rocker arm in half right before your eyes.

(It's not important to your problem here but if I remember correctly the EX-250 engine isn't an "interference" design, meaning that the piston can't hit the valves even if they're full open as the piston passes top-dead-center)

Ragnar1x · April 22nd, 2011, 12:46 PM

It was the intake valve closest to the timing chain. Also, when adjusting the valves, is it best to set them to the low, mid, or high end of the specs?

kkim · April 22nd, 2011, 12:50 PM

when you checked your valves before adjusting were they on the tight or loose side?

Ragnar1x · April 22nd, 2011, 12:55 PM

I haven't checked or adjusted anything yet. I was too concerned in finding the missing rocker arm. For clarity, tight is low clearance and loose is high clearance?

kkim · April 22nd, 2011, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnar1x

For clarity, tight is low clearance and loose is high clearance?

yes

typically, I adjust towards the tight side of the specs due to the valve measurements reading loose when I check them. But, valves can get tighter, depending on what is causing the clearance to vary. If you're not comfortable with "guessing" which way the clearance will change in the future, aim for a mid clearance when doing the adjustment.

greg737 · April 22nd, 2011, 01:18 PM

There are pro's and con's to consider.

Here's a little bit of the accumulated "wisdom of the ages" (at least as it applies to the EX-250): http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/What_ar...ance_ranges%3F

I'm told that as the engine ages the valves will stabilize somewhat and won't require as much adjustment. But also, your riding style will influence how often you've got to adjust the valves (hard use = adjust more often).

kkim · April 22nd, 2011, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greg737

There are pro's and con's to consider.

Here's a little bit of the accumulated "wisdom of the ages" (at least as it applies to the EX-250): http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/What_ar...ance_ranges%3F

I'm told that as the engine ages the valves will stabilize somewhat and won't require as much adjustment. But also, your riding style will influence how often you've got to adjust the valves (hard use = adjust more often).

good info.

Ragnar1x · April 22nd, 2011, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greg737

There are pro's and con's to consider.

Here's a little bit of the accumulated "wisdom of the ages" (at least as it applies to the EX-250): http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/What_ar...ance_ranges%3F

I'm told that as the engine ages the valves will stabilize somewhat and won't require as much adjustment. But also, your riding style will influence how often you've got to adjust the valves (hard use = adjust more often).

Thanks. By that explanation, I'll probably go a little on the loose side.

Jesse8931 · April 22nd, 2011, 03:45 PM

You are one lucky guy.

Ragnar1x · April 29th, 2011, 11:12 AM

My parts came in yesterday. I got the rocker arm and hardware installed and adjusted all the intake valves. I ran out of daylight, I plan on adjusting the exhaust this weekend and then syncing the carbs. If I plan to shim the needles on the carbs, I should probably do that prior do syncing right?

HKr1 · April 29th, 2011, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnar1x

Thanks. By that explanation, I'll probably go a little on the loose side.

Thats what I always do, little loose. It always helped top end HP.
I dont understand that wiki, cause there saying the opposite.....makes no sense to me....
Tight valves float uppper rpms, hense no top end HP??

That wiki is crazy

kkim · April 29th, 2011, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnar1x

My parts came in yesterday. I got the rocker arm and hardware installed and adjusted all the intake valves. I ran out of daylight, I plan on adjusting the exhaust this weekend and then syncing the carbs. If I plan to shim the needles on the carbs, I should probably do that prior do syncing right?

ideally, yes.

kkim · April 29th, 2011, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HKr1

Thats what I always do, little loose. It always helped top end HP.
I dont understand that wiki, cause there saying the opposite.....makes no sense to me....
Tight valves float uppper rpms, hense no top end HP??

That wiki is crazy

Tight clearances, valves open a bit more/longer, more mixture is able to get into the combustion chamber.

valve float, yes... if the valves get too tight, but if you're within spec, they shouldn't float.

dunno... makes sense to me.

greg737 · April 29th, 2011, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnar1x

My parts came in yesterday. I got the rocker arm and hardware installed and adjusted all the intake valves. I ran out of daylight, I plan on adjusting the exhaust this weekend and then syncing the carbs. If I plan to shim the needles on the carbs, I should probably do that prior do syncing right?

Good luck, I'm interested to see how this turns out. Hope you come out of this situation with a great running bike.

HKr1 · April 29th, 2011, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

Tight clearances, valves open a bit more/longer, more mixture is able to get into the combustion chamber.

valve float, yes... if the valves get too tight, but if you're within spec, they shouldn't float.

dunno... makes sense to me.

Doesnt make sense to me. And feeling the difference after years of messing and building motors... really doesnt.

Dont get me started on valve overlap, who ever wrote that must like shimming there needles too

Valve overlap is done in the grinding of the camshaft. In this case, being separate cams for intake/exhaust, you have to degree the cams to change it.

I need a pill

kkim · April 29th, 2011, 02:10 PM

we're not talking about engine building here and changing design/specs...we're talking about an engineered piece and where to set the tolerances of what the manufacturer speced as what is acceptable.

shimming needles is at best a stop gap, but it does produce desired results for pennies at a much less labor intensive procedure than what you guys want the newbies to do. lol... are you saying shimming doesn't improve the engine from what is delivered stock?

sounds like you've had too many pills already. please step back slowly from the medicine cabinet.

greg737 · April 29th, 2011, 02:58 PM

I don't think "valve float" is applicable in this discussion.

Valve float is the phenomena of a valve not remaining in contact with it's rocker arm or camshaft lobe during the closure phase of operation. It occurs at greater than design-limit RPMs (beyond redline) or because of weak valve springs (or maybe one of the two valve springs breaking).

The EX-250 doesn't have any problem with weak valve springs. Remember that this engine was originally designed (and sold from 1988 to 1995) to run at 15,500 RPM and was only later limited to it's current 14,000 after Kawasaki realized that the engine's oil system couldn't cope with sustained 14,000+ RPM operation. Kawasaki still uses the same valve springs (same material specification) in all year models. Same goes for the rest of the valvetrain components from 1988 all the way to 2007.

When we adjust our valves we're not touching/affecting/or-in-any-way-changing anything related to whether the engine will experience "valve float."

The reason we have to adjust the valves on the 250 is that the parts inside the combustion chamber (valve heads and/or valve seats on the cylinder head) wear at a faster rate than the parts under the valve cover (valve nibs, rocker arm pads, cam lobes, tappet screws).

Still too technical? Translation: The cam lobes and the rocker faces that slide against the cam lobes are made of a hardened material which are constantly bathed in copious amounts of oil, so they don't wear very much. The bulk of the wear in the EX-250 valvetrain occurs at the face of the valves and the valve seats. As those wear out, the tip of the valve gets closer to the rocker arm, which tightens up the clearance.

All we're doing on a valve adjustment is removing this tightness so the valve can spend the design-specified amount of time seated on the valve seat. If it spends too little time seated the valve won't be able to pass enough heat off into the valve seat and it will slowly deform ("tulip") in addition to wearing both the valve and valve seat even faster.

As mentioned, the valve and valve seat are going to wear no matter how well they're maintained, but when you keep them in proper adjustment they'll wear as slowly as possible.

kkim · April 29th, 2011, 03:06 PM

Greg,

so, you're saying with the ninja 250, the tendency is for the valve clearances to be tight when they are checked? has that been your experience?

greg737 · April 29th, 2011, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

we're not talking about engine building here and changing design/specs...we're talking about an engineered piece and where to set the tolerances of what the manufacturer speced as what is acceptable.

shimming needles is at best a stop gap, but it does produce desired results for pennies at a much less labor intensive procedure than what you guys want the newbies to do. lol... are you saying shimming doesn't improve the engine from what is delivered stock?

sounds like you've had too many pills already. please step back slowly from the medicine cabinet.

I agree completely. It's a correction to the too-lean factory settings designed to please the EPA (rather than the rider).

Along that line of thinking, if you're going to shim the needles you should also work on properly setting the idle circuit (which also suffers from the EPA syndrome): http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...dle_mixture%3F

greg737 · April 29th, 2011, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

Greg,

so, you're saying with the ninja 250, the tendency is for the valve clearances to be tight when they are checked? has that been your experience?

Yes, mine have always checked out tight. I've only done two valve adjustments on my bike, one when I bought it with 2,600 miles on it and then a second last summer. Both times every valve was at or nearing the tight side limit.

Of course, my engine is a relatively low-time unit. The rate that the valves tighten up changes (slows down) during it's lifespan.

I'm told by guys who've owned some high-mile EX-250s that as they age the engine's valves don't move (wear) as quickly, so it's not uncommon to open up an engine and find almost every valve is within spec.

Also, high RPM riding, especially sustained high-RPM riding causes them to wear (and tighten) more quickly.

kkim · April 29th, 2011, 03:40 PM

thanks. That's my understand of engines in general. When they are new, the valves pound into the seats and actually lessen the valve clearances (which makes that initial valve inspection even more important). High rpms seem to pound them in faster, but once the seats gets some time on them, they seem to "harden" and wear doesn't occur as quickly once an engine has many thousands of miles on it.

valve and valve seat quality all play a major factor on how things progress/deteriorate. After a few years, valve train wear offsets the amount lost to the valve seat pounding and I suppose that can lead to tolerances that appear not to change.

how much and to what degree of offset is anyone's guess, but that's why it's prudent to follow the manufacturers' guidelines at what interval to inspect the valves. They should know their metallurgy the best, which is why I chuckle/gasp (

/

) when people/dealers arbitrarily extend the valve inspection intervals.

greg737 · April 29th, 2011, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

valve and valve seat quality all play a major factor on how things progress/deteriorate. After a few years, valve train wear offsets the amount lost to the valve seat pounding and I suppose that can lead to tolerances that appear not to change.

how much and to what degree of offset is anyone's guess, but that's why it's prudent to follow the manufacturers' guidelines at what interval to inspect the valves. They should know their metallurgy the best, which is why I chuckle/gasp (

/

) when people/dealers arbitrarily extend the valve inspection intervals.

That's an interesting bit of thinking there.... You've taken it in an ironic/surprising direction that I'd never considered, and that is this: if you don't take good care of the engine oil, the extra cam lobe and rocker wear might perfectly offset your valve and valve seat wear, resulting in a perfectly "in-spec" valvetrain.

kkim · April 29th, 2011, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greg737

if you don't take good care of the engine oil, the extra cam lobe and rocker wear might perfectly offset your valve and valve seat wear, resulting in a perfectly "in-spec" valvetrain.

lol... good luck with trying to figure that one out. your clutch and transmission gears are going to hate you for that!

Ragnar1x · May 9th, 2011, 12:43 PM

I have all the valves currently in spec, on the loose side. I started to put everything back together and was going to sync the carbs, after I shimmed the needles. I go to the gas station, fill up my 2.5 gallon gas tank. I get home and dump it in the bike. Its leaking out of the bolt holes for the fairings.

Great.

My tank is currently at the dealer, they are trying to get the tank replaced under the recall. I ran the VIN at kawasaki.com and it says there is an outstanding recall for this tank. Hopefully in another week or so this bike will finally be on the road.

If they don't replace it, does anybody have any solutions on how to fix this problem. I was told that I may be able to drip solder in the hole and that will permanently seal the hole.

greg737 · May 9th, 2011, 01:07 PM

Wow, that's bad luck.

So what's the story on this new development?

Did this just happen? Did you puncture the tank while putting the fairing back on? It's hard to believe there might be any EX-250s out there that still have the OEM recalled bolts that were longer for the lower fairing mounts and shorter for the tank-level fairing mounts. Is that what happened?

Or was this a pre-existing condition at the time of your purchasing it? You never mentioned whether this bike was a "runner" when you got it. Or by chance did you only ride it with a low fuel level up till now?

Over the years I've seen a good number of threads posted about tank punctures. Most situations seem to end with a new tank. Apparently it's pretty hard to get a successful or lasting fix. So I'm hoping you can get a new tank from Kawasaki, that would be the best outcome you could hope for.

Ragnar1x · May 9th, 2011, 01:43 PM

I never put the fairing bolts back on. This must have been a pre-existing problem. I did ride the bike prior to purchasing, it ran ok. The tank had about half a gallon in it. I was told by the dealer to inspect my VIN sticker and see if they marked it for taking care of the problem.

I did have the bike running for about 5 mins before I noticed the leak, it ran very stable. I think the idle is set low, but I will have to wait and see until I get a functional tank. I guess I'll start hunting ebay for used tanks. I'm just afraid that buying a used tank will leak, just like mine is.

greg737 · May 9th, 2011, 01:51 PM

You'll just have to be very specific about the condition of any tank you buy on Ebay. Talk to the seller about it's overall condition and especially about the fairing to tank bolt holes. Don't let the seller "play dumb" on you. If there's even the slightest doubt, move on to the next candidate.

Glad to hear the bike runs.

Ragnar1x · May 10th, 2011, 10:07 AM

The dealer just said they cannot honor the recall because all the bolts are the same correct length. The PO must have just stuck a random bolt in there that was too long. I cant find a used tank anywhere, I really do not want to spend $650 on a new tank. Does anybody know where else I can look for a tank, new or used? Also, unlikely but are there any other bike models that use the same tank?

I found some gas safe epoxy that I might try to put in the hole and seal it up. Any advice on this? I plan on, just trying to clean the hell out of it, wait for it to dry and give it a go.

kkim · May 10th, 2011, 11:01 AM

take the tank somewhere that knows how to weld gas tanks. they can weld the hole shut.

FrugalNinja250 · May 10th, 2011, 11:03 AM

You've got nothing to lose by using the epoxy, just try to remove any paint in the holes and clean it out with a non-residue cleaner like Brakleen, then let it dry thoroughly before applying the epoxy. Be sure to shorten your bolts to account for the epoxy at the bottom of the holes.

greg737 · May 10th, 2011, 11:28 AM

The welding option sounds interesting, if, and it's a big if, you can find a shop that really knows its stuff. If you find the right guy you could end up with a like-new tank.

You'll have to have some in-depth discussions with anyone you let weld on the tank, it would be a real bummer to have him successfully weld the hole shut only to screw up the fairing attach threads so badly you can't put the body back on again.

I'm not too optomistic about the epoxy fix, I've just read too many posts about the eventual failure of epoxy.

Again, good luck with achieving a quality fix. Let us know how it goes.

April 21st, 2011, 06:02 PM	#1
Ragnar1x ninjette.org member Name: John Location: CT Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): CBR 600 F4i, 06 250R Posts: 28	Missing Rocker arm and valve adjust screw/nut So I just bought an 06 250R and it has just about 7000 miles on it. I was informed by this forum to do a valve adjustment. I just got into it today and I found the rocker arm and valve adjustment screw/nut is gone for one of the intake valves. Its just not there. Has anyone seen anything like this before? Any advice on where to buy new parts?

April 22nd, 2011, 07:25 AM	#7
Ragnar1x ninjette.org member Name: John Location: CT Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): CBR 600 F4i, 06 250R Posts: 28	I did more searching. I found and was able to remove the nut, screw, and HALF of the rocker arm. It was broken in half. Thats why it fell off in the first place. They were all together and fell into the timing chain opening. Now the second half of the rocker arm is nowhere to be seen. Any body have any ideas on where to look first? I guess I'm going to start with draining the oil and looking at the oil screen and filter. UPDATE: I drained the oil and looked at the filter and screen. I saw little to no debris(So at least it wasn't chewing up my engine), but no rocker arm yet. I then took off the clutch cover and BINGO, there was half a rocker arm just sitting there at the bottom of the cover. From here on, I can probably button everything back up and then finally adjust the valves, But my question now is, Has anybody ever seen a rocker arm break in half on these bikes??? I'll post pics of the broken arm. I didn't take many pics of the dis-assembly because the camera battery's were dead. Last futzed with by Ragnar1x; April 22nd, 2011 at 08:52 AM. Reason: Update

April 29th, 2011, 03:40 PM	#30
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	thanks. That's my understand of engines in general. When they are new, the valves pound into the seats and actually lessen the valve clearances (which makes that initial valve inspection even more important). High rpms seem to pound them in faster, but once the seats gets some time on them, they seem to "harden" and wear doesn't occur as quickly once an engine has many thousands of miles on it. valve and valve seat quality all play a major factor on how things progress/deteriorate. After a few years, valve train wear offsets the amount lost to the valve seat pounding and I suppose that can lead to tolerances that appear not to change. how much and to what degree of offset is anyone's guess, but that's why it's prudent to follow the manufacturers' guidelines at what interval to inspect the valves. They should know their metallurgy the best, which is why I chuckle/gasp (/) when people/dealers arbitrarily extend the valve inspection intervals.

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April 21st, 2011, 06:37 PM	#2
Ragnar1x ninjette.org member Name: John Location: CT Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): CBR 600 F4i, 06 250R Posts: 28	So I found these parts. http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmot...9804#sch435895 I'm missing 12016, 92009 and 92015. Is there anything that holds down the screw(92009)? Or does it just sit there in the little pocket in the head, and is held in place by the cam?

April 21st, 2011, 07:17 PM	#3
shiftdrift06 ninjette.org member Name: Z Location: Earth Join Date: Jun 2010 Motorcycle(s): None Posts: 92	Good thing you went ahead and checked. So your saying it is completely gone? Have you checked the timing chain opening? You might have internal damage now. The rocker arm and screw/nut just sits on the the valve. They are held in place by the cam shaft.

April 21st, 2011, 08:40 PM	#4
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	John, Can you take a pic of what you're seeing? I'm just hoping maybe you're not seeing things correctly, somehow. Hard parts like these, loose in an engine, is not a good thing, obviously. I assume you've looked around the head for evidence of these just lying around, perhaps? Is there any sign of damage to the other components in the head? Do you know the previous owner and can you contact them for information on who did the valves last? I'm surprised the bike runs.

April 21st, 2011, 09:46 PM	#5
greg737 - Name: - Location: - Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): - Posts: A lot.	I guess you have to assume the nut and rocker are still in the engine. Most likely down the cam chain gallery or nestled in an out of the way place below the cam shafts. I'd look at the entire cam shaft area for evidence of impacts from these parts bouncing around. Maybe you can track them down that way. Maybe get one of those magnetic part-grabbers and fish around down in the cam chain gallery. Makes me wonder if they could make it all the way to the oil screen?

April 22nd, 2011, 12:49 AM	#6
Ragnar1x ninjette.org member Name: John Location: CT Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): CBR 600 F4i, 06 250R Posts: 28	Yeah, I guess I have to assume they are still there. I can't imagine anybody putting it back together without them. I only spent a minute or two looking at it tonight, I'll try and get some pictures tomorrow morning. When I test rode the bike, it ran ok. I didn't hear any funny noises at all. I rode it to about 9-10k rpms, 1st through 3rd gear. It did feel a little sluggish. The bike went from the test ride to my truck.

April 22nd, 2011, 09:26 AM	#9
Ragnar1x ninjette.org member Name: John Location: CT Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): CBR 600 F4i, 06 250R Posts: 28	Good Post, thanks for the info. The valve itself shouldn't be damaged, correct? There is no interference between the piston and the valve? I guess I'm asking, Should I take the valve out and inspect it or just leave it alone?

April 22nd, 2011, 09:56 AM	#10
greg737 - Name: - Location: - Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): - Posts: A lot.	Yes, should be fine. Was it an intake valve or an exhaust valve that has the broken rocker arm? Anyway, the valve has just been sitting there closed for who knows how long. When the rocker arm broke the valve simply closed that last time and that was that. Everything should be fine when you get a new rocker arm installed. The valve assembly that the rocker arm acts upon(valve, spring, guide) should just go right back to working normally. The only possible problem (and it's a long shot) would be if the valve has seized due to something like carbon buildup at the lip of the valve seat in the cylinder. After you install the new rocker you should turn the engine over gently by hand a few times (and make damn sure you're turing the engine over in it's normal operating direction). If the valve is seized you'll get a front row veiw of the cam lobe snapping the new rocker arm in half right before your eyes. (It's not important to your problem here but if I remember correctly the EX-250 engine isn't an "interference" design, meaning that the piston can't hit the valves even if they're full open as the piston passes top-dead-center)

April 22nd, 2011, 12:50 PM	#12
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	when you checked your valves before adjusting were they on the tight or loose side?

April 22nd, 2011, 12:55 PM	#13
Ragnar1x ninjette.org member Name: John Location: CT Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): CBR 600 F4i, 06 250R Posts: 28	I haven't checked or adjusted anything yet. I was too concerned in finding the missing rocker arm. For clarity, tight is low clearance and loose is high clearance?

April 22nd, 2011, 01:18 PM	#15
greg737 - Name: - Location: - Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): - Posts: A lot.	There are pro's and con's to consider. Here's a little bit of the accumulated "wisdom of the ages" (at least as it applies to the EX-250): http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/What_ar...ance_ranges%3F I'm told that as the engine ages the valves will stabilize somewhat and won't require as much adjustment. But also, your riding style will influence how often you've got to adjust the valves (hard use = adjust more often).

April 22nd, 2011, 03:45 PM	#18
Jesse8931 ninjette.org guru Name: Jesse Location: Ann arbor mi Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 ninja 250r Posts: 374	You are one lucky guy.

April 29th, 2011, 11:12 AM	#19
Ragnar1x ninjette.org member Name: John Location: CT Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): CBR 600 F4i, 06 250R Posts: 28	My parts came in yesterday. I got the rocker arm and hardware installed and adjusted all the intake valves. I ran out of daylight, I plan on adjusting the exhaust this weekend and then syncing the carbs. If I plan to shim the needles on the carbs, I should probably do that prior do syncing right?

April 29th, 2011, 02:10 PM	#25
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	we're not talking about engine building here and changing design/specs...we're talking about an engineered piece and where to set the tolerances of what the manufacturer speced as what is acceptable. shimming needles is at best a stop gap, but it does produce desired results for pennies at a much less labor intensive procedure than what you guys want the newbies to do. lol... are you saying shimming doesn't improve the engine from what is delivered stock? sounds like you've had too many pills already. please step back slowly from the medicine cabinet.

April 29th, 2011, 02:58 PM	#26
greg737 - Name: - Location: - Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): - Posts: A lot.	I don't think "valve float" is applicable in this discussion. Valve float is the phenomena of a valve not remaining in contact with it's rocker arm or camshaft lobe during the closure phase of operation. It occurs at greater than design-limit RPMs (beyond redline) or because of weak valve springs (or maybe one of the two valve springs breaking). The EX-250 doesn't have any problem with weak valve springs. Remember that this engine was originally designed (and sold from 1988 to 1995) to run at 15,500 RPM and was only later limited to it's current 14,000 after Kawasaki realized that the engine's oil system couldn't cope with sustained 14,000+ RPM operation. Kawasaki still uses the same valve springs (same material specification) in all year models. Same goes for the rest of the valvetrain components from 1988 all the way to 2007. When we adjust our valves we're not touching/affecting/or-in-any-way-changing anything related to whether the engine will experience "valve float." The reason we have to adjust the valves on the 250 is that the parts inside the combustion chamber (valve heads and/or valve seats on the cylinder head) wear at a faster rate than the parts under the valve cover (valve nibs, rocker arm pads, cam lobes, tappet screws). Still too technical? Translation: The cam lobes and the rocker faces that slide against the cam lobes are made of a hardened material which are constantly bathed in copious amounts of oil, so they don't wear very much. The bulk of the wear in the EX-250 valvetrain occurs at the face of the valves and the valve seats. As those wear out, the tip of the valve gets closer to the rocker arm, which tightens up the clearance. All we're doing on a valve adjustment is removing this tightness so the valve can spend the design-specified amount of time seated on the valve seat. If it spends too little time seated the valve won't be able to pass enough heat off into the valve seat and it will slowly deform ("tulip") in addition to wearing both the valve and valve seat even faster. As mentioned, the valve and valve seat are going to wear no matter how well they're maintained, but when you keep them in proper adjustment they'll wear as slowly as possible.

April 29th, 2011, 03:06 PM	#27
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	Greg, so, you're saying with the ninja 250, the tendency is for the valve clearances to be tight when they are checked? has that been your experience?

May 9th, 2011, 12:43 PM	#33
Ragnar1x ninjette.org member Name: John Location: CT Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): CBR 600 F4i, 06 250R Posts: 28	I have all the valves currently in spec, on the loose side. I started to put everything back together and was going to sync the carbs, after I shimmed the needles. I go to the gas station, fill up my 2.5 gallon gas tank. I get home and dump it in the bike. Its leaking out of the bolt holes for the fairings. Great. My tank is currently at the dealer, they are trying to get the tank replaced under the recall. I ran the VIN at kawasaki.com and it says there is an outstanding recall for this tank. Hopefully in another week or so this bike will finally be on the road. If they don't replace it, does anybody have any solutions on how to fix this problem. I was told that I may be able to drip solder in the hole and that will permanently seal the hole.

May 9th, 2011, 01:07 PM	#34
greg737 - Name: - Location: - Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): - Posts: A lot.	Wow, that's bad luck. So what's the story on this new development? Did this just happen? Did you puncture the tank while putting the fairing back on? It's hard to believe there might be any EX-250s out there that still have the OEM recalled bolts that were longer for the lower fairing mounts and shorter for the tank-level fairing mounts. Is that what happened? Or was this a pre-existing condition at the time of your purchasing it? You never mentioned whether this bike was a "runner" when you got it. Or by chance did you only ride it with a low fuel level up till now? Over the years I've seen a good number of threads posted about tank punctures. Most situations seem to end with a new tank. Apparently it's pretty hard to get a successful or lasting fix. So I'm hoping you can get a new tank from Kawasaki, that would be the best outcome you could hope for.

May 9th, 2011, 01:43 PM	#35
Ragnar1x ninjette.org member Name: John Location: CT Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): CBR 600 F4i, 06 250R Posts: 28	I never put the fairing bolts back on. This must have been a pre-existing problem. I did ride the bike prior to purchasing, it ran ok. The tank had about half a gallon in it. I was told by the dealer to inspect my VIN sticker and see if they marked it for taking care of the problem. I did have the bike running for about 5 mins before I noticed the leak, it ran very stable. I think the idle is set low, but I will have to wait and see until I get a functional tank. I guess I'll start hunting ebay for used tanks. I'm just afraid that buying a used tank will leak, just like mine is.

May 9th, 2011, 01:51 PM	#36
greg737 - Name: - Location: - Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): - Posts: A lot.	You'll just have to be very specific about the condition of any tank you buy on Ebay. Talk to the seller about it's overall condition and especially about the fairing to tank bolt holes. Don't let the seller "play dumb" on you. If there's even the slightest doubt, move on to the next candidate. Glad to hear the bike runs.

May 10th, 2011, 10:07 AM	#37
Ragnar1x ninjette.org member Name: John Location: CT Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): CBR 600 F4i, 06 250R Posts: 28	The dealer just said they cannot honor the recall because all the bolts are the same correct length. The PO must have just stuck a random bolt in there that was too long. I cant find a used tank anywhere, I really do not want to spend $650 on a new tank. Does anybody know where else I can look for a tank, new or used? Also, unlikely but are there any other bike models that use the same tank? I found some gas safe epoxy that I might try to put in the hole and seal it up. Any advice on this? I plan on, just trying to clean the hell out of it, wait for it to dry and give it a go.

May 10th, 2011, 11:01 AM	#38
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	take the tank somewhere that knows how to weld gas tanks. they can weld the hole shut.

May 10th, 2011, 11:03 AM	#39
FrugalNinja250 ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Frugal Location: Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW) Join Date: Mar 2010 Motorcycle(s): Several Posts: A lot.	You've got nothing to lose by using the epoxy, just try to remove any paint in the holes and clean it out with a non-residue cleaner like Brakleen, then let it dry thoroughly before applying the epoxy. Be sure to shorten your bolts to account for the epoxy at the bottom of the holes.

May 10th, 2011, 11:28 AM	#40
greg737 - Name: - Location: - Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): - Posts: A lot.	The welding option sounds interesting, if, and it's a big if, you can find a shop that really knows its stuff. If you find the right guy you could end up with a like-new tank. You'll have to have some in-depth discussions with anyone you let weld on the tank, it would be a real bummer to have him successfully weld the hole shut only to screw up the fairing attach threads so badly you can't put the body back on again. I'm not too optomistic about the epoxy fix, I've just read too many posts about the eventual failure of epoxy. Again, good luck with achieving a quality fix. Let us know how it goes.