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Old February 20th, 2011, 06:04 PM   #161
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Sorry this reply has taken so long. The notifications are going to an email address I no longer use.

The plugs on the EX500 motor aren't sealed off from the outside via the plug wire/caps like they are on the 250 motor. There are actually little drain holes in the head to let water make its way out from around the base of the plugs. That being said, the 650 coils are just long enough to clear the top of the 500's CAM cover, but there are no seals at the top. The rubber boot at the bottom does fit snugly around the 500's plug, so there is no danger of their falling off.

To your other question, so far they have been running great. Back when I was running the 250 motor, whenever I road in the rain and went through large puddles, the engine would try to die probably due to old crappy plug wires. I don't have that problem anymore ... no more plug wires.
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Old February 22nd, 2011, 02:12 PM   #162
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it would be great to see more pictures of detailed parts. i was planing on doing this swap 3 years ago but a lady had totaled out my 250 split the frame in two.

but i plan on being one of the few 250/500 owners this summer especially since i have found a cheap parts bike. does the lower fairing fit well, that is one thing i have noticed on side by side comparison of the ex250 and 500. seams the headers would be a bit tight.

oh how has the driving of the bike changed? is it wheelie happy. speeds so on. what prockets did you retain. im very intrested in the old styyle 250 swap. and congrats hopefully there will be a HUGE fallowing of this..... sleeper 250. if you could what top speeds have you hit. and try some 1/4 mile times would be bad ass

thank you.
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Old February 24th, 2011, 03:56 PM   #163
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Since I used a pre-2008 250 and the stock headers for the 500, the lower fairing doesn't fit at all. I had been riding for a few months without it before the swap, so I just left it off. On the other guy's swap using a post '08 model, it looks like he used a spacer between the two halves to spread it around the wider 500 motor. I haven't taken the time to measure, but it looks like even with a custom header you'd be hard pressed to fit the lower fairing back in place. Personally, I prefer the look of the old ninja body without it. Had I an '08 model, I might think differently.

As for riding, it's like night and day. People who say going from the 250 to 500 or vice versa is barely noticeable have never ridden one after the other, or they are comparing them both to 1000cc supersports.

I'll get some more in depth pictures once I get some time (and batteries for my old s****** camera. There's really not much to the swap, but I really couldn't give you dimensions. It's easier to just mock the engine into place and make cardboard templates of the mounting brackets.
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Old May 11th, 2011, 08:29 PM   #164
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Talking time for an upgrade..

So I picked up a 2008 for my son to ride to replace the 2002 that developed a bad top end knock. He likes the looks of the next gen better.

I also picked up a crashed 2004 ex500 that I was going to fix and flip but looking closer at the frame it is bent more than I want to play with... I think it's time to wake up the 2002 ala New_Rider.... Having only $450 into the ex500 I think I can end up with the doner engine, electronics, console, and harness for free after repairing and selling the plastics and tank.

Wonder if the forks and triple tree from the 500 will fit the 250? With that and the 500's swingarm I'd end up with the 17 inch rims in the upgrade also.

The 500 has what appears to be a Muzzy pipe and 2-1 header which has a minor dent I think I can push our with a little persuasion. Hope to get this to fit under the 250 fairings....
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Old July 24th, 2011, 08:18 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sombo View Post
HERESY!!!!!! You must be burned at the stake for suggesting such a mix. Polluting a ninja with a Suzuki motor, how could you think of such a thing?
Kawasaki did it with their 2006 KFX400... Ask me how I know... lol
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Old July 25th, 2011, 07:02 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phyberoptic View Post
So I picked up a 2008 for my son to ride to replace the 2002 that developed a bad top end knock. He likes the looks of the next gen better.

I also picked up a crashed 2004 ex500 that I was going to fix and flip but looking closer at the frame it is bent more than I want to play with... I think it's time to wake up the 2002 ala New_Rider.... Having only $450 into the ex500 I think I can end up with the doner engine, electronics, console, and harness for free after repairing and selling the plastics and tank.

Wonder if the forks and triple tree from the 500 will fit the 250? With that and the 500's swingarm I'd end up with the 17 inch rims in the upgrade also.

The 500 has what appears to be a Muzzy pipe and 2-1 header which has a minor dent I think I can push our with a little persuasion. Hope to get this to fit under the 250 fairings....
I'm almost 100% positive that the front ends are a direct swap.

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Old July 25th, 2011, 09:21 AM   #167
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Yeh, they're a direct swap. My 2001 250 has the forks & triple tree from a 2004 500. I swapped the rear swing arm too, but the pivot tube had to be narrowed just a bit.
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Old October 1st, 2012, 07:40 PM   #168
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Don't know what happened to the Ninja 400 rumors but the new 300 looks great. Need to find a way to fit a 636 on the 250 frame and then put some 300 fairings on it.
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Old October 18th, 2012, 07:29 AM   #169
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looks like a got a new winter project.......
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Old December 28th, 2012, 08:03 PM   #170
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hey bud i tried to do this to mine after its engine blew im so close to getting her going! maybe you can help me out did you use the 250 wiring harness?
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Old December 28th, 2012, 08:18 PM   #171
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hey bud i tried to do this to mine after its engine blew im so close to getting her going! maybe you can help me out did you use the 250 wiring harness?
ztrack is not around anymore...

you might be able use the ninja 250 harness, just need to make sure the 500 cdi and voltage regulator works.

have you looked at the wiring diagrams for the 500 vs 250
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Old December 28th, 2012, 08:36 PM   #172
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no i havent i got everything mounted and all signs point to a badass bike but when i go to start it. it sounds like it wants to start but wont so i didnt know if that could screw me over or what
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Old December 28th, 2012, 09:16 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeperbike View Post
.... did you use the 250 wiring harness?
Here it is quoted from youtube comments:


Brahmantio Prayogo
1 year ago

Please read my previous answer about engine year and installation. This use a ex500 radiator also and complete wiring harness and right ignition switch,a koso rx2 instrument cluster because of adjustability and fitment.if ure living in us ure lucky cause this swap is cheap.probably cost u $800 depends on the engine kit price.I'm in indonesia,the cost of importing the kit alone already triple the original cost. The bike is dynoed at over 52hp on wheel and 42nm torque.



Brahmantio Prayogo
1 year ago

fitment need - a custom engine mount made og 8mm thick steel plate (thats the hard part) other than that, its just small adjustments of the other engine stay and brackets.also thermostat housing and hoses move to the left,but all can be done with custom bracketing. from 1-10 I say its an 8 ! the motor is from 2008 ex500, original ex500 carb - exhaust header however is our custom made 2-1 instead of the original double muffler ex500 exhaust
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Old December 28th, 2012, 10:00 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blades8306 View Post
Don't know what happened to the Ninja 400 rumors but the new 300 looks great. Need to find a way to fit a 636 on the 250 frame and then put some 300 fairings on it.
The ninja 500 will fit the new 250 with some mods. look at these vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGjIyEFOWEc

TUBO 250r
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K5Sqyvbjdo

And last but not least..... the new KAWASAKI TRON!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ86A1O9OcM
AND....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1im1to-alnw
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Old April 6th, 2013, 07:33 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Bushmaster11B View Post
And last but not least..... the new KAWASAKI TRON!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ86A1O9OcM
Uhhh, they just said it's a Suzuki 1000cc TL V-Twin motor. Not a Kawi.
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Old February 17th, 2014, 07:12 PM   #176
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needs a before/after engine pic
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Old July 10th, 2014, 07:47 AM   #177
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Anyone thought about doing this engine swap on a 300?

Donor Engine & Ecu & Wiring are easely available on ebay for about 1500...

Was thinking about turbocharge the 300 but if the swap is not to bad to do, would be cheaper and less headache and probably get even more HP (or more reliable HP for sure...)

Any thoughs?
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Old July 10th, 2014, 08:58 AM   #178
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Anyone thought about doing this engine swap on a 300?

Donor Engine & Ecu & Wiring are easely available on ebay for about 1500...

Was thinking about turbocharge the 300 but if the swap is not to bad to do, would be cheaper and less headache and probably get even more HP (or more reliable HP for sure...)

Any thoughs?
Post 174. The "new" 250 he speaks of *is* the 300 (250L).
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Old July 10th, 2014, 09:26 AM   #179
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What about the 650 FI in the 300?
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Old July 10th, 2014, 09:26 AM   #180
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The Twin, obviously we are not talking about the 4 Cyl
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Old July 11th, 2014, 06:48 AM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elguano View Post
Anyone thought about doing this engine swap on a 300?

Donor Engine & Ecu & Wiring are easely available on ebay for about 1500...

Was thinking about turbocharge the 300 but if the swap is not to bad to do, would be cheaper and less headache and probably get even more HP (or more reliable HP for sure...)

Any thoughs?
Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by elguano View Post
What about the 650 FI in the 300?
why?

It seems you are simply interested in more power and not so much tuning a current engine. In that case why not just get a bike with more power? Sell the 300 while it is still worth something and get something else.

I understand modding a bike to squeeze out power and make it your own but I consider that different than engine swaps and even so anything but rare cool unique engine swaps I just don't see much of a point in that or you blew your original motor so you have something to play around with.

So PITA 650 into 300 engine swap or buy a used 600ss, not much debating for me there. You would end up with an engine in a bike that vastly out performs any other component on the 300, especially the brakes and suspension.

As far as the 500, why not just buy a used 500 for $1500 bucks and trick it out in to a sweet streetfighter or café racer and keep the 300 as is?
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Old July 11th, 2014, 07:08 AM   #182
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To Answer to your Why Question, it will be fairly simply simple : INSURANCE

Living where i live and been a new driver , ninja 300 = 700, 600+ = 3500+/yr

So basically paying that much for freaking insurance doesn't make any sense.

The 300 is already pretty much modded with whatever they have for at this point, powercommander & exhaust + KN air cleaner.

Am pretty much mechanically inclined, and had played a lot with swap in cars and even swapping a TL1000R into a Tl1000S (which was pretty simple,except the cooling issue vs the R...

I've seen couple of guys swapping the 500 into the 250 and it didn't seem that bad, the 650 is F-I vs the 500 is Carb.

How bigger is the 650 compared to the 500?
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Old July 11th, 2014, 07:10 AM   #183
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And the 650 is 1500$ for Engine,ECU,Harness only...
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Old July 11th, 2014, 09:36 AM   #184
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I thought it was more for the "sleeper" aspect where everyone thinks it's just a 300 until you let loose.
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Old July 11th, 2014, 10:30 AM   #185
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I thought it was more for the "sleeper" aspect where everyone thinks it's just a 300 until you let loose.
all good for drag racing but if you are slow in the corners well then you are still slow in the corners
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Old July 11th, 2014, 11:16 AM   #186
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LOL good point there

No I guess am alright, there's better than me obviously (as there will always be...) , Had many bike before but never been licensed to drive one... so this year for my 33rd bday, I decided to finally pass the exam :P So that is probably why am looking to get a little bit more kick of the 300, don't get me wrong it's a fun bike, but the shifting every 2 seconds is getting annoying, even tho I did replace the front sproket with a 15T
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Old May 8th, 2015, 02:40 AM   #187
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I'm currently on day three of doing an ex500 engine swap into a pregen 250.
Everything new rider said is correct I think but I had a few things to add. It helps a lot to have the whole ex500 bike to do this. Cut the rear four brackets off the 500 frame and the triangular brackets for the front two mounts. Four aluminum spacers need to be made to replace the rubber mounts. Additional long steel or aluminum spacers need to be made to the ears on the engine don't crack off while tightening the engine bolts, just like the rubber mounts had. You don't want to rubber mount the engine since the original 250 used the engine as part of the frame. The 250 frame is basically only enough to keep the bike in one piece when you drop the engine and the ex500 racers hard mount their engines for more chassis rigidity so I think it's safe to do.
The ex500's back wheel has its sprocket bolted to its wheel about 3/16" outboard of the 250's so washers will need to be stacked between the sprocket and rear wheel. You will need shortened intake boots, I think I'm going to try to use radiator hose.
And that's about as far as I've got so far. I'll chime in again later.
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Old May 8th, 2015, 02:43 AM   #188
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Here it is so far. I think with with a little header massaging I can get the belly plastics to fit.
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Old May 8th, 2015, 05:45 PM   #189
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The Gen2 EX500's suspension is pretty similar to the NewGen's. On paper, the 500 forks have slightly better numbers, but I'm not sure how much difference there is in reality. If you don't like the look of the 500 forks, you should be able to use NewGen forks, or maybe even swap the NewGen lowers onto the 500 forks (not sure exactly which parts of the forks contribute to the different numbers).

The NewGen/300 has a slightly improved swingarm over the 500. It's also the proper width for the 250 frame, while the 500's is 7mm wider. Other than the width at the pivot point, the NewGen and 500 swingarms are pretty much interchangeable, just a few minor differences with accessory brackets.

Since there was mention of the PreGen sprocket not lining up with the 500 engine, it might be worth swapping to a 17" NewGen/500 setup at the same time (since those two are pretty much identical). It might avoid some placement issues, while also giving you access to better tire selection.


Personally, I think I would only ever do this to get the looks of the NewGen for my 500. The 500 is only about 30lb heavier than the 250 (maybe, I'm seeing differing numbers). According to Matt's old posts, the 500 engine is about 30lb heavier than the 250 engine. So by swapping the 500 engine into the 250, you've just made it weigh the same as the 500 anyway (or fairly close). The suspensions are pretty similar. There's more room on the NewGen for shocks with bigger bodies, but they're a lot more similar than they are dissimilar. It just seems like a lot of work to end up with something pretty similar to just a stock 500, other than the looks. If you want PreGen looks with a 500cc engine, the Gen1 500 is quite similar in looks to the PreGen (as opposed to the Gen2's mid-90's restyling). It even has the 16" wheels, and even more old-fashioned goodness with a rear drum brake.
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Old May 9th, 2015, 01:01 AM   #190
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Well I just got her running tonight. The original 250 harness kept and mostly uncut, I had to lengthen the neutral sensor wire. The pickup on the 500 engine needed to be ran separate from the 250 harness and pluged in directly to the 500 ignition box, an extension wire adaptor made for the oil pressure switch, and the 500 harness even had a connector to scavenge to mate with the pigtail that went to the 250 ignition box to make an adaptor to the 500 ignition box. Gas tank fits and the carbs dont hit the petcock. Used automotive fuel tank filler neck hose for shorter intake boots. The unis I had for the 250 fit the 500. The clutch and choke cables fit perfect and the throttle cables fit better on the 500 carbs than the 250's since I have the r6 throttle tube. I removed the spot welds from the coil brackets of the 250 and used them to hold the 250 coils in the stock locations. I haven't tackled the temperature sensor yet.

The 250 engine weighed in at 91lbs with carbs on, with oil, without headers.
The 500 engine weighed in at 138lbs with carbs on, with oil, without headers.

The 500 weighs about 70lbs more than the 250 on paper. The engine increase the weight by 50lbs and the brackets to support the engine, the larger radiator, and larger exhaust probably increase weight 20lbs. There is probably no weight saving doing this over riding a 500.

However the 250 has about a 1.5" shorter wheelbase but a 3/8" longer swingarm than the early 500's. This let the designers put the engine almost 2" farther from the front wheel on the 500. I kept the stock sprocket to swingarm pivot diatance and put the engine's sprocket as low as possible using the smaller 250 sprocket on the 500 engine. Ill play around doing wheelies for a while and then put the 500's taller counter sprocket and smaller rear sprocket on later. The chain barely touches the swingarm's rubber protector while the bike is on the centerstand, should be better than stock as far as antisquat is concerned. There is more weight on the front with this swap compared to a stock 500 and I'm thinking about using the 500 swingarm to shorten the wheelbase to 53" to better balance the bike. For anyone willing to run airfilterless, or youre creative, the ex500's stock carb to air box boots fit the 250 and are actually bad ass infinity stacks

It should be fun

Last futzed with by Mojavemesa; May 9th, 2015 at 02:10 AM.
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Old May 9th, 2015, 08:09 AM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojavemesa View Post

Here it is so far. I think with with a little header massaging I can get the belly plastics to fit.
I just noticed that's an early Gen1 engine. They have a few weak spots that were fixed with the Gen2.
  • They use an inferior-design CCT, which should be replaced with the Gen2 part (or a manual CCT, if you like extra maintenance). http://www.ex-500.com/wiki/index.php...CT_Replacement
  • The exposed magnets on the flywheel tend to fall apart. The ignition pickups are slightly different between the generations, so you'll need to mod the triggers on the Gen2 flywheel to match the Gen1, or swap some more parts to match everything up. http://www.ex-500.com/wiki/index.php...el_replacement
  • The Gen1 transmission is known for popping out of second gear. Gen2 updated some parts to fix it. The internals can be swapped over to a Gen1.

For anyone else attempting this, I'd suggest finding a '94+ donor to avoid these little issues. If you're getting a whole bike rather than just the engine, that will get you the 17" wheel setup also.
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Old May 9th, 2015, 01:27 PM   #192
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Bill, are you running a high flow filter? If so do you recall what you jetted it at?
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Old May 9th, 2015, 10:42 PM   #193
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Here's a link to a video of it running. No air leak, I just had the idle turned up too high. Main jets are way too lean but if I hand choke it for a second it's enough fuel for one cylinder to increase rpms enough that the mains start flowing
https://www.facebook.com/ryan.mayer....97155415906016
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Old May 11th, 2015, 06:54 AM   #194
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Bill, are you running a high flow filter? If so do you recall what you jetted it at?
Stock, with a drop-in K&N and the "FOG airbox mod" (adding a 1" hole to the left cover to lean out the top end a bit, since it's rich from the factory) and pilot screws adjusted to match (since the bottom end is lean from the factory, and the FOG mod makes it even worse).

My first guess is that the lack of an airbox (and therefore volume for the CV carbs) is affecting the fueling. It's a pretty common EX500 issue when people decide they want to get rid of the airbox. One guy ended up making an H-shaped "airbox" out of PVC to add some volume back into the intake system.
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Old May 11th, 2015, 05:39 PM   #195
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Not to be contrary but the lack of any filters would make the "air box" volume infinity large, not small. I also don't believe in a shared intake or exhaust with a four stroke with a 180 crank, power-power-exhaust-exhaust. One cylinder inevitably helps the other's performance while the other cylinder hurts the first's. It doesn't seem to be a lack of an accelerator pump issue since even when rolling on the throttle it stumbles at the same slide height. The needles just need shimmed or changed for ones with a different taper. No big deal, all the same stuff I had to do for the 250 engine. Thanks though. I'll post some dyno results in a couple weeks.
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Old May 11th, 2015, 05:43 PM   #196
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Here was the 250 after butt dynoing the jetting. I managed to just eek out 30 before yanking it in favor of the 500 engine
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Old May 13th, 2015, 12:01 AM   #197
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I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying a lot of people used to slapping on a few parts to get some extra power have tried to do the same on the EX500. A lot of them end up spending a lot of time on it and never get it working all that well. You obviously know more about this stuff than I do. I'm just sharing what I've seen over on the 500 forum with people trying (usually unsuccessfully) to get more power out of it.

Here's a dyno of a stock 500 just for a rough idea of what you should be getting out of it.



In FOG's personal testing, he got 49-51hp stock at the wheel, 52-53 with a pipe and jet kit, and 53.9 with the airbox mod, everything else stock in perfect tune (fresh valve job and cams degreed to ensure factory specs).
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Old May 22nd, 2015, 08:21 AM   #198
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So now I have a slow 600, that's what it feels like at least. The front suspension is definitely more compressed so I'll put in the ex500 fork springs. The ex500 people have specs on the rear springs and they say our spring is actually harder, makes sense since our swing arm is a touch longer. I'm going to swap to the shorter ex500 swing arm and play around with 250/500 spring combinations. Maybe use the 250 spring and the 500 shock and make a spacer so the preload adjuster functions the same. Way more power but I need to lighten this bike a lot now.
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Old May 22nd, 2015, 08:43 AM   #199
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@Mojavemesa this is awesome!

Check out my build for a front end & swinger swap from a 92 zx600
Since the 600 is heavier - the fork springs should be stiffer- I also put in a gsxr rear shock. Not done yet, but some ideas for your build

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Old May 22nd, 2015, 11:14 AM   #200
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MOTM - Aug '15
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Originally Posted by Mojavemesa View Post
The front suspension is definitely more compressed so I'll put in the ex500 fork springs. The ex500 people have specs on the rear springs and they say our spring is actually harder, makes sense since our swing arm is a touch longer. I'm going to swap to the shorter ex500 swing arm and play around with 250/500 spring combinations. Maybe use the 250 spring and the 500 shock and make a spacer so the preload adjuster functions the same. Way more power but I need to lighten this bike a lot now.
Using the RaceTech calculator, the stock PreGen fork springs (.44kg/mm) are good for about 25lb and the 500 springs (.585kg/mm) are good for about 110lb. With the extra weight from the engine, you want to go that much stiffer. Figuring +50lb for the engine and a rider weighing about 160lb, they suggest around a .75kg/mm spring. The 500 springs will definitely be better, but they may still be way too soft for you and the upgraded bike. The Gen1 has longer springs, so you do have more room to cut them down to stiffen them up (they're right around .70kg/mm when cut down to 17" long, which is the length of Gen2 springs).

The rear spring on the 500 is only 300lb/in compared to 440lb/in on the PreGen. It's not just a touch softer, it's a lot softer - it's only good for a ~120lb rider on the 500. The PreGen spring will fit on the 500 shock and the preload adjuster will get it down to the bench setting to match the 500's weight/suspension without any spacer, but it's about 1/8" from the end of the threads. http://www.ex-500.com/index.php/topic,61377.0.html

How much difference is there in swingarm length between the two? The NewGen and Gen2 swingarms are the same length (when measured with standard tools, nothing super-accurate). I'm not sure how the Gen1 and Gen2 swingarm lengths compare.

The 500's swingarm is 7mm narrower than the NewGen's at the pivot point. If the PreGen frame is the same as the NewGen in that area (my understanding is that the NewGen stuff can be swapped onto a PreGen fairly easily, see this thread), the 500 swingarm won't fit in the frame without narrowing it (which may cause problems with installing the bearings). The OD of the pivot sleeve and the ID of the needle bearings are the same between the Gen2 and NewGen, but the bolt and ID of the sleeve are different, so you have to reuse the one that matches your frame. The Gen1 also has a rear drum brake, so I'm not sure if there's anything missing from the swingarm related to mounting a disc brake.
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