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Old November 18th, 2017, 10:16 PM   #1
jp8484
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Noob - Bike upgrade suggestion

Hey guys
I just bought my first bike this year (2010 Ninja 250) and new to riding as well.. Rode almost everyday until I had to put it away for the winter.

As a noob who is probably too excited about motorcycle in general (small dream of mine for long time so happy to see it materialize finally)
I been reading alot in different forums and watching too much youtube.. I don't want all that infos to fill my head with too much ideas. (Ex. being able to pass bigger bikes in corners one day.. haha)

I'm planning on doing small upgrades but wanted some opinions/suggestions from you guys.

Upgrade I will be installing: steel-braided front brake line (Galfer), R6 throttle tube mod

Already installed: EBC HH Sintered brakes, K&N Air Filter

Thinking about installing: Racetech front suspension springs and oil upgrade, tires (Michellin RS or something.. currently running on stock front and hockey puck for the rear), some sprocket tooth number changes in the future

I would like to make the bike to be more responsive and stable/fast around the corner. No tracking with this bike but mainly used as a fun toy / commuter. Not interested in exhaust or jetting.. unless adjusting current setting.. Hoping to turn it into a fun cornering machine that can double up as fun grocery run machine.

I'd appreciate any advice on the set up from you guys who have done it or have knowledge on the matter.. especially concerning the suspension set up. If changing out the springs and oil is good enough or should I be looking into GSX swap... if there's merit in going one route over another.. etc..
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Old November 18th, 2017, 10:23 PM   #2
Kevin1956
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Not a suspension related suggestion, but the first thing I'd do is go to a 15 tooth countershaft sprocket if the previous owner hasn't already done so.
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Old November 18th, 2017, 10:26 PM   #3
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Old November 18th, 2017, 10:29 PM   #4
jp8484
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thanks!
and no previous owner has not.. I'm gonna wait on it for a bit and change it together with the chain once it's time. Apparently sprockets are good for now but coming up on maintenance soon.
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Old November 18th, 2017, 10:50 PM   #5
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thanks!
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Old November 18th, 2017, 11:44 PM   #6
MLR
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Just watch on how much you drop on it cash wise, you may be better off saving for a bigger bike.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy my lil ninja, but if I wanted more performance I would just upgrade.

Me, I'm on the lookout for a R6, ZX or GSXR, CBRR 600.

I believe the 600 platform is the best of both worlds, still flickable and usable power.

As for the R6 throttle tube, that is a must have IMO.
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Old November 18th, 2017, 11:47 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLR View Post
Just watch on how much you drop on it cash wise, you may be better off saving for a bigger bike.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy my lil ninja, but if I wanted more performance I would just upgrade.

Me, I'm on the lookout for a R6, ZX or GSXR, CBRR 600.

I believe the 600 platform is the best of both worlds, still flickable and usable power.

As for the R6 throttle tube, that is a must have IMO.
Hey MLR
thanks for the reply!
I wish I can upgrade that easily but I can't upgrade until 2020.. deal with my wife for buying a motorcycle. I may also keep it as fun second bike even if I do upgrade in couple years.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 02:00 AM   #8
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Enjoy and stay safe
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Old November 19th, 2017, 02:48 AM   #9
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Hi and welcome.

The bike really is really fun as it is. I suggest you look really closely at WHY you want to upgrade. Is it to make bike do something it CANNOT do right now?

I have two 2008 Ninja 250Rs, one race-bike and other street bike. The race-bike has practically every single upgrade on market and pretty much only stock part is frame, engine, wheels and gas tank. This bike IS faster than my street bike on racetrack. That is what the upgrades are for, to make it go 2:10 at Thunderhill; something my street bike CANNOT do.

However, my street bike is 100% stock, down to its 2007 tyres. I haven't done any upgrades to it because none of my race-bike upgrades makes sense on the street:

- I don't don't need higher top-speed of 104 vs. 96 mph
- I don't need more ground clearance because I'm not grinding off foot-pegs and exhaust
- I don't need lower clip-on bars to hide behind windscreen easier
- etc.

Maybe the first upgrade I may do is tyres, but maybe to harder more durable touring tyres. I'm not sliding the factory tyres around onramp cloverleaf @ 60mph, so I don't need tyres that'll improve that limit to 61-62mph. I might do upgrade to 15-16t front sprocket and double-bubble or Corsa windscreen for quieter riding.

So I ask you, what measurable result do you want to achieve with upgrades? As others mentioned, after you stack on certain amount of upgrades, it would've been cheaper to buy a different bike with those capabilities from factory.

BTW - "more responsive" and "more stable" around corners is contradictory. They are opposite changes from factory behavior.

Last futzed with by JacRyann; November 19th, 2017 at 10:10 AM.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 12:17 PM   #10
jp8484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacRyann View Post
Hi and welcome.

The bike really is really fun as it is. I suggest you look really closely at WHY you want to upgrade. Is it to make bike do something it CANNOT do right now?

I have two 2008 Ninja 250Rs, one race-bike and other street bike. The race-bike has practically every single upgrade on market and pretty much only stock part is frame, engine, wheels and gas tank. This bike IS faster than my street bike on racetrack. That is what the upgrades are for, to make it go 2:10 at Thunderhill; something my street bike CANNOT do.

However, my street bike is 100% stock, down to its 2007 tyres. I haven't done any upgrades to it because none of my race-bike upgrades makes sense on the street:

- I don't don't need higher top-speed of 104 vs. 96 mph
- I don't need more ground clearance because I'm not grinding off foot-pegs and exhaust
- I don't need lower clip-on bars to hide behind windscreen easier
- etc.

Maybe the first upgrade I may do is tyres, but maybe to harder more durable touring tyres. I'm not sliding the factory tyres around onramp cloverleaf @ 60mph, so I don't need tyres that'll improve that limit to 61-62mph. I might do upgrade to 15-16t front sprocket and double-bubble or Corsa windscreen for quieter riding.

So I ask you, what measurable result do you want to achieve with upgrades? As others mentioned, after you stack on certain amount of upgrades, it would've been cheaper to buy a different bike with those capabilities from factory.

BTW - "more responsive" and "more stable" around corners is contradictory. They are opposite changes from factory behavior.
Thanks for the reply JacRyann!

Question for you.. how different are the two ninjas you have? Did it change it's stock characteristics drastically?

Only upgrade that I'm really debating on is front fork springs and oil change..
Will be changing out the sprocket once I have to change the chain/sprockets are worn down bit more for maintenance. Same deal for tyres.. front tyre will have to be changed sometime next season so might as well change them both out for something stickier.

I just want to invest enough to bring out the best characteristics of the bike bit more that are dumbed down at factory stock setting. I've been reading that this bike is set to run lean for mileage and I'm not all that worried about gas cost with this bike. It's well regarded for it's flickability hence I want to be able to bring it out even more by changing some suspension setting. Only fronts though.. adjusted the sag on the rear already and not sure if I want to bother with rear.. seems fine for me as it is and not experienced enough to notice anyway. Front however.. feels really soft and dips alot. (I'm bit on the heavy side)

Stock throttle takes way too long to go WOT and constantly have to readjust grip.
Hoping sprocket change can reduce having to shift up and down all the time in city driving. Not too concerned with top speed.. if I can get more torque in lower rev.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 12:43 PM   #11
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i like the the bike to dive in the front , maybe more than others,
braking at turn in with some dive in the front. and that bike will be turning pretty fast.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 12:58 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacRyann View Post
Hi and welcome.
...down to its 2007 tyres.
Going euro on me Jac?

JacRyan has the best advice. In addition, what you're talking about with corner stability and "fast" around the corner has to do with 2 things.

1. You, as the rider ultimately determines how fast you are on any given bike. Improve your skills and get seat time to improve that, and all that costs is time and gas, and a well maintained bike.

2. Stability of the bike does have to do with suspension as well as rider skill, that being said the 2nd gen has an adjustable rear shock. Youtube or google how to set up your rear preload to your weight. Especially on this bike you can do it 100% on your own, but it is nice to have someone there to help. All that'll cost you is the price of a spanner wrench. This will help to make you feel more confident while riding, especially cornering. It won't necessarily improve your riding, but it will improve your ride and help confidence. I'd say learn the everything you can about your bike as it is first, improve your rider skill, and then when you start exceeding your bike's abilities improve or upgrade. The Ninja 250 is pretty versatile, and it's limits are pretty far out there, plus its cheap which is why it's a popular choice for race organizations as a class of it's own.

Last, the best thing to really improve the bike and help you develop skill, and this applies to cars and bikes, is your tires. If you're itching to spend money, start by getting decent tires, and keeping up on have good tires each season. Keep an eye on wear, where and how your wearing will tell you where to improve in riding (or maintaining the bike as well) too, as well as when to replace your tires. So again, if you want to blow money on something to help you feel more confident in improving your riding skill, buy something like Pirelli Diablo Rosso II or III's, Michelin Pilot Power 2CT's, Bridgestone S21's, Dunlop Q3's, and when you wear them down replace them long before your run out of tread, rule of thumb if you ride regularly is once a season.

Good luck, have fun, and get seat time in.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 01:21 PM   #13
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Going euro on me Jac?
Well, my wife is British and I learned Engrish as foreign language!
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Old November 19th, 2017, 01:40 PM   #14
Dave Wolfe
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Im big 230 lbs. On stock suspension mine would bottom out the front quite often. Stiffer fork springs and 15 wt fork oil made a world of difference. That being said, I can tell you .95 springs are a bit too harsh on the street at my weight. Stock is a .65 spring rate.

The best mod to a stock bike is richening up the idle mixture. It maked the low end much more zippy. Unfortunately you need to pull the carbs off to drill out the idle mixture plugs and thats quite a bit of work. Maybe if you had a tiny dentists style drill you could do it with carbs on the bike? If you ever do pull the carbs, swap out the bowl screws and diaphragm screws for allen head socket head screws.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 02:17 PM   #15
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Dave,

I mean no offense or anything, but I have had 400lbs+ on my 250 (2up) and didn't have a bottoming out problem. This is, of course, street pace, so what am I missing? Honestly, I just don't see a stock 250 with 250lbs bottoming out the front under legal speeds and an assumed level of smoothness.

What am I missing? Potholes, speed bumps, stop sticks, wheelies? I am 200lbs fully geared and my best skill is silly hard braking at corner entry. Even on the street, I make my passengers nervous more often than not approaching a sharp corner. I just wish I could keep our helmets from bumping into each other. lol

Honest question sir....
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Old November 19th, 2017, 02:34 PM   #16
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Wow.

A new rider who doesn't immediately go to a loud exhaust or "I NEED a bigger bike! Thinking R6!" as the first things on the upgrade wish list?





Good advice above. Tires first. Then suspension.

Personally I never had a problem with the stock gearing. I like to say the party starts at about 9,000 rpm, and the bike will run all day long at those kinds of revs. I put 12k or so on mine, rode it like I stole it, and was never unhappy.

I did do clip-ons and rearset adapters on mine, but for ergonomic reasons. I found the more aggressive position more comfortable. That bike was never ridden on the track.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 02:54 PM   #17
jp8484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrshooter View Post
i like the the bike to dive in the front , maybe more than others,
braking at turn in with some dive in the front. and that bike will be turning pretty fast.
I'll need to learn how to ride more to get there I guess.. learning session got cut short due to mother nature.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 02:57 PM   #18
jp8484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaBraap View Post
Going euro on me Jac?

JacRyan has the best advice. In addition, what you're talking about with corner stability and "fast" around the corner has to do with 2 things.

1. You, as the rider ultimately determines how fast you are on any given bike. Improve your skills and get seat time to improve that, and all that costs is time and gas, and a well maintained bike.

2. Stability of the bike does have to do with suspension as well as rider skill, that being said the 2nd gen has an adjustable rear shock. Youtube or google how to set up your rear preload to your weight. Especially on this bike you can do it 100% on your own, but it is nice to have someone there to help. All that'll cost you is the price of a spanner wrench. This will help to make you feel more confident while riding, especially cornering. It won't necessarily improve your riding, but it will improve your ride and help confidence. I'd say learn the everything you can about your bike as it is first, improve your rider skill, and then when you start exceeding your bike's abilities improve or upgrade. The Ninja 250 is pretty versatile, and it's limits are pretty far out there, plus its cheap which is why it's a popular choice for race organizations as a class of it's own.

Last, the best thing to really improve the bike and help you develop skill, and this applies to cars and bikes, is your tires. If you're itching to spend money, start by getting decent tires, and keeping up on have good tires each season. Keep an eye on wear, where and how your wearing will tell you where to improve in riding (or maintaining the bike as well) too, as well as when to replace your tires. So again, if you want to blow money on something to help you feel more confident in improving your riding skill, buy something like Pirelli Diablo Rosso II or III's, Michelin Pilot Power 2CT's, Bridgestone S21's, Dunlop Q3's, and when you wear them down replace them long before your run out of tread, rule of thumb if you ride regularly is once a season.

Good luck, have fun, and get seat time in.
Hey ninjabraah

Check on rear preload adjustment. Already done with the tool that came with the bike. Not sure if it's just in my head but adjusting rear sag and having proper air pressure felt like it helped with handling noticable.. If I remember correctly.. I felt like my rear was 'slipping' or sliding around a bit but that seemed to have been reduced. This could be all in my head..
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Old November 19th, 2017, 03:00 PM   #19
jp8484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Wolfe View Post
Im big 230 lbs. On stock suspension mine would bottom out the front quite often. Stiffer fork springs and 15 wt fork oil made a world of difference. That being said, I can tell you .95 springs are a bit too harsh on the street at my weight. Stock is a .65 spring rate.

The best mod to a stock bike is richening up the idle mixture. It maked the low end much more zippy. Unfortunately you need to pull the carbs off to drill out the idle mixture plugs and thats quite a bit of work. Maybe if you had a tiny dentists style drill you could do it with carbs on the bike? If you ever do pull the carbs, swap out the bowl screws and diaphragm screws for allen head socket head screws.
thanks for the reply!

Front fork springs and oil is the probably the most expensive upgrade I have on my wish list.. (race tech .85) good to get some feed back on the matter.

I hit the maintenance schedule for valve adjustment.. I can probably ask the shop about carb for riding rich and changing out the screws while they take the thing apart.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 03:06 PM   #20
jp8484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
Wow.

A new rider who doesn't immediately go to a loud exhaust or "I NEED a bigger bike! Thinking R6!" as the first things on the upgrade wish list?





Good advice above. Tires first. Then suspension.

Personally I never had a problem with the stock gearing. I like to say the party starts at about 9,000 rpm, and the bike will run all day long at those kinds of revs. I put 12k or so on mine, rode it like I stole it, and was never unhappy.

I did do clip-ons and rearset adapters on mine, but for ergonomic reasons. I found the more aggressive position more comfortable. That bike was never ridden on the track.
haha thanks adouglas!

my first reaction WAS louder exhaust and faster bike (back on kijiji after 2 weeks) but after thinking this over and since I can't change the bike for another 2 years, I want to work on my ninja with some sensible upgrades.. haha
I'm fine with stock exhaust.. could be prettier but quiet enough not to piss off the neighbours and it's loud enough when reving high.. tunnels and under the bridges etc.

If I don't hang out with guys with liter bikes, I'm good.

I think I'm gonna take the advices from you guys and perhaps do things in this order.

Steelbraided front brake line (already purchased)
R6 throttle tube
Tyres (Michelin RS or something.. recommended by my local shop. I think it's cheaper than diablo corsa rosso whatever)
15T front sprocket

Gonna ride in that setting first and decide on the front fork springs I guess. I could also go on a diet to match the current spring setting..

thanks guys!
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Old November 19th, 2017, 03:34 PM   #21
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Imma be frank here...

There is only one other mod that can be done that will make your experience on ANY bike better.

Do a track school...

The right track school will not only allow you to ride on the track but will be "safety" focused 1st and performance orient 2nd. This holds true on both the street and track.

For example; As a coach, when I get my group in front of me... the first thing I tell them is;
Quote:
My job is to first make your day as safe as possible, my next goals are to allow you to tap into the upper ranges of your bikes abilities, while doing it in a safer way. I would also like to know what your goal of the day is, and we will specifically work on that as long as it is within realistic reach of your current skill level.
You can spend all the money in the world on the bike in different mods, but unless you can take advantage of those mods, it's piss in the wind. Without question, without doubt, and no under no other circumstances... the best mod to a bike is 100% by far, A BETTER RIDER.

Next is a subtle yet powerful human modification. You might just be surprised how much safer you feel in full gear. Some describe it as much more confidence inspiring than any mod on the bike.

Last but not least, is the throttle. So important being a finely tuned instrument of your control, that it literally means the difference between what the rider believes is a bike that helps them meet their goals or fights them every step of the way. It will make or break your ride and/or day. I bring this up because as a newer rider, making the throttle more responsive in any way can and may hinder more than it helps. Via a throttle tube or more aggressive tune.

The endgame:
Simply put, the end game is to be as good and/or better than the bike your riding. If not, you're chasing the bike. Imho, the bike should be boosting you as the rider... never the other way around. It is the source of such quotes as "when in doubt, gas it out" or "just lean it." Both of those quotes purely depend on the bike being better than the rider. While they hold a hint of truth, neither are good for the rider and leave your fate to dumb luck.

Feel me?
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Old November 19th, 2017, 04:07 PM   #22
Dave Wolfe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
Dave,

What am I missing? Potholes, speed bumps, stop sticks, wheelies? I am 200lbs fully geared

Honest question sir....
Well, those of you who are lawn nome sized like yourself would be fine! For me, speed bumps, potholes, driveways , etc under normal braking would do it. Pretty much everytime I pulled into my house. I know Im not the only one my size thats had the same observation. Could I ride around the deficiency? Sure but its more fun when the setup matches your style.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 04:22 PM   #23
jp8484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
Imma be frank here...

There is only one other mod that can be done that will make your experience on ANY bike better.

Do a track school...

The right track school will not only allow you to ride on the track but will be "safety" focused 1st and performance orient 2nd. This holds true on both the street and track.

For example; As a coach, when I get my group in front of me... the first thing I tell them is;

You can spend all the money in the world on the bike in different mods, but unless you can take advantage of those mods, it's piss in the wind. Without question, without doubt, and no under no other circumstances... the best mod to a bike is 100% by far, A BETTER RIDER.

Next is a subtle yet powerful human modification. You might just be surprised how much safer you feel in full gear. Some describe it as much more confidence inspiring than any mod on the bike.

Last but not least, is the throttle. So important being a finely tuned instrument of your control, that it literally means the difference between what the rider believes is a bike that helps them meet their goals or fights them every step of the way. It will make or break your ride and/or day. I bring this up because as a newer rider, making the throttle more responsive in any way can and may hinder more than it helps. Via a throttle tube or more aggressive tune.

The endgame:
Simply put, the end game is to be as good and/or better than the bike your riding. If not, you're chasing the bike. Imho, the bike should be boosting you as the rider... never the other way around. It is the source of such quotes as "when in doubt, gas it out" or "just lean it." Both of those quotes purely depend on the bike being better than the rider. While they hold a hint of truth, neither are good for the rider and leave your fate to dumb luck.

Feel me?
Hey Csmith12

thank you for your input! appreciate your insight for the noob such as myself.

I really wanted to do the riding school next season but after doing some math.. I decided to put it off for another season. Cost of having proper gear for the track (the nearest track school from me requires full or 2 piece suit which I don't have, need better gloves and proper track boots. I just have regular TCX street ace boots and gloves just enough to attend safety course for licensing), school fee, bike rental/insurance.. it was running bit high. I'm sure it's worth all the investment but I went budget route with my current gears and sorta regretting that decision right now.

All the gears have adequate safety ratings but styling isn't up to my standard.. haha. Kinda bought it thinking I won't be buying a bike for another year.. but ended up getting it the same summer as I got my license anyway.
Also need full face helmet. Currently have modular helmet for easy cigarette access..

I also feel I could use more saddle time before attending riding school to fully appreciate that course and maybe read up on 'twist of the wrist II' or something.

Was learning how to blip properly before having to winterize the bike.. so I'm still noob to start learning about proper race techniques.. if you have any tips on blipping on ninja 250, I'm all ears! (I pull the throttle to rev up but when I release the clutch, it revs up again instead of silky smooth rev matching.. hella difficult in lower gears)

I feel you though! I do want to get better as a rider!
For now, as a noob, I'm gonna piss some money away to help sustain this industry..haha
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Old November 19th, 2017, 04:42 PM   #24
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That's good, if it feels like it's slipping around but your not sure it could just be from your throttle inputs. As long as you're correctly adjusted on preload for your weight (full riding gear) and have decent tires for good traction, in the dry it shouldn't feel like its slipping until your maxing out your bikes limits, which takes quite a bit. If you're new to riding and your riding in the rain, cold, or both you might feel some slipping just due to cold tires, and again, throttle inputs needing some fine tuning. As you get used to it though and gain more experience, maybe do some track days, you'll basically feel like you just open up to full throttle and lean to turn lol.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 04:43 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by JacRyann View Post
Well, my wife is British and I learned Engrish as foreign language!
Lol you get a pass then lol. If everything goes to plan I'll likely end up saying tyres too though.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 04:45 PM   #26
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Ah.... we ALL spend some dollars because of "what we want vs what we need." No harm, no foul. It is... what it is and brings a smile to our faces.

As far as your direct question on blipping. Your answer can be found at the very end of the "Twist of the Wrist" movie, there is also a section about blipping during the "11 things" that must be accomplished during corner entry (breaking and downshifting). Modern tech on expensive bikes has already removed the need to blip, but as the video says... " too bad, it's kinda fun when you get it right", old school.... ikr!!!! On a carbed bike like a 250, the throttle blip takes a bit more time and takes a bit larger throw vs a fuel injected bike. There is no magic here, it just takes time and practice to get the timing down. In the end, you will be rolling the throttle up as you do "clutch in and out" and roll out of the throttle. It all happens in about 1 second, and you don't pull the clutch all the way in, only just past the friction zone. Trying to blip on a bike will modern and full electronics enabled, will have you at the end of your ride going WTF!!!! The bike just reved up on its own?!?!?!??!

As a coach who has prepped for years, tried out, been through some of the processes as a coach for CSS, you can't go wrong with watching that movie at least 10 times. You will learn something you missed each time you rewatch it. I have watched it 100+ times, and still, learn.

You sound like me when I got my first sportbike, hungry and eager. With good focus and direction, it can lead you to a very fun, fulfilling and safe riding career and that is all I wish for anyone.

Enjoy modding your bike, just make sure you know why you are modding it and plan a rider development path that will let you utilize your hard earned money spent.

I like your style sir, keep asking questions. And don't let other riders fool you, even coaches ask each other questions from time to time. There is always something to learn.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 05:47 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
Ah.... we ALL spend some dollars because of "what we want vs what we need." No harm, no foul. It is... what it is and brings a smile to our faces.

As far as your direct question on blipping. Your answer can be found at the very end of the "Twist of the Wrist" movie, there is also a section about blipping during the "11 things" that must be accomplished during corner entry (breaking and downshifting). Modern tech on expensive bikes has already removed the need to blip, but as the video says... " too bad, it's kinda fun when you get it right", old school.... ikr!!!! On a carbed bike like a 250, the throttle blip takes a bit more time and takes a bit larger throw vs a fuel injected bike. There is no magic here, it just takes time and practice to get the timing down. In the end, you will be rolling the throttle up as you do "clutch in and out" and roll out of the throttle. It all happens in about 1 second, and you don't pull the clutch all the way in, only just past the friction zone. Trying to blip on a bike will modern and full electronics enabled, will have you at the end of your ride going WTF!!!! The bike just reved up on its own?!?!?!??!

As a coach who has prepped for years, tried out, been through some of the processes as a coach for CSS, you can't go wrong with watching that movie at least 10 times. You will learn something you missed each time you rewatch it. I have watched it 100+ times, and still, learn.

You sound like me when I got my first sportbike, hungry and eager. With good focus and direction, it can lead you to a very fun, fulfilling and safe riding career and that is all I wish for anyone.

Enjoy modding your bike, just make sure you know why you are modding it and plan a rider development path that will let you utilize your hard earned money spent.

I like your style sir, keep asking questions. And don't let other riders fool you, even coaches ask each other questions from time to time. There is always something to learn.
thank YOU for your kind input sir!
I came across twist of the wrist video on Youtube and did watch it couple times. Alot of things I need to learn.. and made me want to take CSS course one day. Some of the things I learned from watching that video, I did take note to apply it while riding, target fixation being something that stood out for me at the time. If you guys have scholarship program or squid prevention outreach program, do let me know!

Really appreciate the help with blipping.. so I'm not going crazy when I'm thinking I need to pull the throttle bit longer to match rev properly. Guys on youtube with bigger bikes seem to do it alot quicker than I can. Perhaps it can also be done on ninja 250.. just gotta find the sweet spot I guess. I'm really appreciating that fact that I'm learning how to ride on carbed bike with no modern electronic assists.. really feels like it's a good opportunity to learn proper foundation to build on.

I'm all the way up in Canada but hopefully one day I can make it out to CSS course!

Thanks again!
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Old November 19th, 2017, 06:23 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by jp8484 View Post
Question for you.. how different are the two ninjas you have? Did it change it's stock characteristics drastically?
Well, they feel similar, yet behave like two completely different bikes. The race-bike is rock-solid steady at 80mph-ave around a track. Yet at street speeds, it's a lazy turd. Feels like driving a dump truck where you have to muscle and force it to do things. The street-bike at street speeds is much more responsive; I can do U-turns in one lane with just 2-fingers on bars. But at track-speeds, it feels very nervous and too responsive.

Note, you cannot have both "more stable" and "more responsive" change in behavior. It's like being pregnant and not-pregnant at the same time. Handling is on a continuum, like a ruler with 100% lightness on one end, and 0% darkness on the other. You can only pick ONE point in between. You cannot have both extremes at the same time.


Quote:
I just want to invest enough to bring out the best characteristics of the bike bit more that are dumbed down at factory stock setting. I've been reading that this bike is set to run lean for mileage and I'm not all that worried about gas cost with this bike. It's well regarded for it's flickability hence I want to be able to bring it out even more by changing some suspension setting.
I think you want to quantify bolded part with numbers. That way, you have a target to shoot for. How will you know if your upgrades had any effect whatsoever without some sort of tangible, measurable and comparable metric? For example, if you can currently go from full-upright to 60-degree lean in 0.832s, and after upgrades, that time shortens to 0.511s, then you know it worked.

Quote:
Stock throttle takes way too long to go WOT and constantly have to readjust grip.
Hoping sprocket change can reduce having to shift up and down all the time in city driving. Not too concerned with top speed.. if I can get more torque in lower rev.
THIS is what I'm talking about. You can exactly measure how much twist it takes from factory 1/4" turn throttle to upgraded 1/5" turn. The number of teeth on sprocket can be counted and change in engine-RPMs at highway-speeds is exactly known. However, like the flickability spectrum, you can't have both. Taller-gearing for less shifting will result in lower-torque at low-RPMs, so you'll have to run the bike into the higher-RPMs for same acceleration.

Quote:
Only fronts though.. adjusted the sag on the rear already and not sure if I want to bother with rear.. seems fine for me as it is and not experienced enough to notice anyway. Front however.. feels really soft and dips alot. (I'm bit on the heavy side)
That's what suspensions are supposed to do, compress to absorb bumps and keep your tyres in contact with road. Stiffer is not better because you'll skip off tops of bumps in corners and end up sliding front and/or rear tyres. You'll want to measure with numbers exactly how much of your suspension-travel you're using (zip-tie on fork tube). In the beginning, I was bottoming out my suspension on both track & street bikes with my hefty 90kg. I bumped up spring-rate and pre-load on the track bike with thicker oil and cranked up the damping adjustment. But I still got pogo-stick bouncing under braking.

This points out something you're not quantifying above, and that is handling is combination of bike-hardware and user-control. I was too abrupt with my control-inputs and not smooth enough. That caused the bike to use up more suspension-travel than necessary. Now after 48-days this year of trackdays and racing, I'm much, much smoother and faster... on exact same bikes. I never bottom suspension on the street-bike any more. And it's more responsive and flickable than ever because I've learned to apply firm steering-inputs (countre-steering) without hesitation and conflicting motions. Learn to relax shoulders and not have both arms fighting each other. I like the Jackie Stewart method, put a plate between bars with an egg on it. Then ride around being so smooth, you never roll egg off plate...

As others mentioned, more time riding will give you better results than any amount of upgrades can do. Save your money for trackdays. Used suit, boots, gloves and helmet can be had for U$400 or less.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 07:31 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Dave Wolfe View Post
Well, those of you who are lawn nome sized like yourself would be fine! For me, speed bumps, potholes, driveways , etc under normal braking would do it. Pretty much everytime I pulled into my house. I know Im not the only one my size thats had the same observation. Could I ride around the deficiency? Sure but its more fun when the setup matches your style.
Understood,
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Old November 19th, 2017, 08:19 PM   #30
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@JacRyann - I like that you validate that your mods are working for you.

Next season, I am going to record some of my coaching sessions. Specifically the one on bike setup, mods vs body position. It will be nearly .5 hour video. I leave near no stone unturned, even down to lever angle adjustment, gloves, throttle turn vs wrist placement ratio, bar grip thickness, to shift/brake lever adjustments, boots, and rearset types.

MAKE the bike work for you! This is why we buy parts to mod the bike, to make the rider happy. And each of us is different in our own way.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 08:49 PM   #31
jp8484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacRyann View Post
Well, they feel similar, yet behave like two completely different bikes. The race-bike is rock-solid steady at 80mph-ave around a track. Yet at street speeds, it's a lazy turd. Feels like driving a dump truck where you have to muscle and force it to do things. The street-bike at street speeds is much more responsive; I can do U-turns in one lane with just 2-fingers on bars. But at track-speeds, it feels very nervous and too responsive.

Note, you cannot have both "more stable" and "more responsive" change in behavior. It's like being pregnant and not-pregnant at the same time. Handling is on a continuum, like a ruler with 100% lightness on one end, and 0% darkness on the other. You can only pick ONE point in between. You cannot have both extremes at the same time.


I think you want to quantify bolded part with numbers. That way, you have a target to shoot for. How will you know if your upgrades had any effect whatsoever without some sort of tangible, measurable and comparable metric? For example, if you can currently go from full-upright to 60-degree lean in 0.832s, and after upgrades, that time shortens to 0.511s, then you know it worked.

THIS is what I'm talking about. You can exactly measure how much twist it takes from factory 1/4" turn throttle to upgraded 1/5" turn. The number of teeth on sprocket can be counted and change in engine-RPMs at highway-speeds is exactly known. However, like the flickability spectrum, you can't have both. Taller-gearing for less shifting will result in lower-torque at low-RPMs, so you'll have to run the bike into the higher-RPMs for same acceleration.

That's what suspensions are supposed to do, compress to absorb bumps and keep your tyres in contact with road. Stiffer is not better because you'll skip off tops of bumps in corners and end up sliding front and/or rear tyres. You'll want to measure with numbers exactly how much of your suspension-travel you're using (zip-tie on fork tube). In the beginning, I was bottoming out my suspension on both track & street bikes with my hefty 90kg. I bumped up spring-rate and pre-load on the track bike with thicker oil and cranked up the damping adjustment. But I still got pogo-stick bouncing under braking.

This points out something you're not quantifying above, and that is handling is combination of bike-hardware and user-control. I was too abrupt with my control-inputs and not smooth enough. That caused the bike to use up more suspension-travel than necessary. Now after 48-days this year of trackdays and racing, I'm much, much smoother and faster... on exact same bikes. I never bottom suspension on the street-bike any more. And it's more responsive and flickable than ever because I've learned to apply firm steering-inputs (countre-steering) without hesitation and conflicting motions. Learn to relax shoulders and not have both arms fighting each other. I like the Jackie Stewart method, put a plate between bars with an egg on it. Then ride around being so smooth, you never roll egg off plate...

As others mentioned, more time riding will give you better results than any amount of upgrades can do. Save your money for trackdays. Used suit, boots, gloves and helmet can be had for U$400 or less.
whoa thanks for the thoughtful reply!

The quantifying method when upgrading seems like a great practice before doing any mods on the bike.
Man.. this forum is the best.. haha
Something I wouldn't have learned if I didn't ask.

Just to apply the practice to what I want to achive..
Throttle tube mod - help me avoid arthritis by reducing the turn
Steel brake line - help me stop faster in shorter distance. (hopefully.. with some practice)
Tires - Well.. I have to change the front soon anyway and hopefully sticker tire can help with acceleration/stopping. Not sure if I can measure it but maybe it can at least boost some pseudo confidence while cornering.
Suspension - this... I might hold off while I learn to ride more but once I start getting a sense that I want the bike to be set up properly.. I'll start looking for sale online.

Gear over skill is something I do understand completely.. I used to have a hobby and that turned into a career.. took away some of that joy when buying new gears. It's just a business expense now. Hence, it's fun to get that feeling again with motorcycle looking at revzilla website haha.

Thanks alot guys!
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Old November 19th, 2017, 09:01 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
@JacRyann - I like that you validate that your mods are working for you.

Next season, I am going to record some of my coaching sessions. Specifically the one on bike setup, mods vs body position. It will be nearly .5 hour video. I leave near no stone unturned, even down to lever angle adjustment, gloves, throttle turn vs wrist placement ratio, bar grip thickness, to shift/brake lever adjustments, boots, and rearset types.

MAKE the bike work for you! This is why we buy parts to mod the bike, to make the rider happy. And each of us is different in our own way.
You have a youtube channel where I can go and learn new stuffs?
also keep us posted when you do post!

There's alot of moto vloggers out there but hard to find more advanced informations.
Here's couple that I really enjoyed
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8X...BrcQKcdvE-V7pQ
(tips on body positoning and trail braking)
https://www.youtube.com/user/Murtanio
(Reason why I got ninja over R3. There's some great beginner tutorials in his early videos. He got R6 now so I stopped watching.. haha)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3s...pX2JzeRzYS24UQ
(more useful infos)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz03sQeX02c
(and of course the ultimate 250 video... wondering if he has quickshifter installed)

if you make a video on some advanced braking technique, that be awesome..
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Old November 19th, 2017, 09:05 PM   #33
jp8484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jp8484 View Post
You have a youtube channel where I can go and learn new stuffs?
also keep us posted when you do post!

There's alot of moto vloggers out there but hard to find more advanced informations.
Here's couple that I really enjoyed
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8X...BrcQKcdvE-V7pQ
(tips on body positoning and trail braking)
https://www.youtube.com/user/Murtanio
(Reason why I got ninja over R3. There's some great beginner tutorials in his early videos. He got R6 now so I stopped watching.. haha)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3s...pX2JzeRzYS24UQ
(more useful infos)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz03sQeX02c
(and of course the ultimate 250 video... wondering if he has quickshifter installed)

if you make a video on some advanced braking technique, that be awesome..
I'm not sure if the links are working properly but.. if you goto youtube and search these channels..

1. fonzy rr
2. murtanio
3. speed & noise
4. it's a link to that video of 250 overtaking bigger bikes at laguna seca
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Old November 19th, 2017, 09:13 PM   #34
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At this point, I suggest not overwhelming yourself with too much, like body-positioning and trail-braking. That’s racing stuff for later after you’ve mastered the basics.

- starting & stopping smoothly (remember the egg, or a passenger you don’t want to jostle too much)
- shifting promptly and smoothly with rev-matching up & down (blipping)
- managing traffic
- bike-control, making bike track exact line on road you want
- etc.

And have fun!!!

Last futzed with by JacRyann; November 19th, 2017 at 10:42 PM.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 09:25 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacRyann View Post
At this point, I suggest not overwhelming yourself with too much, like body-positioning and trail-braking. That’s racing stuff for later after you’ve mastered the basics.

- starting & shopping smoothly (remember the egg, or a passenger you don’t want to jostle too much)
- shifting promptly and smoothly with rev-matching up & down (blipping)
- managing traffic
- bike-control, making bike track exact line on road you want
- etc.

And have fun!!!
up shifting..
is it normal to be slightly jerky in lower gears? I try to upshift after the power bend.. so anywhere past 10k I think.. or way earlier if I'm just cruising around. Maybe it's my throttle control..

managing traffic.. anyone upgraded their horn? and yeah.. i try to remember the 'bubble' around me and escape plan at all times.

bike control.. I DO need to work on this more.

Thanks Jac!
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Old November 19th, 2017, 10:30 PM   #36
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I've found the horn to be pretty much useless. I ride so I never need to use it, even though that means yielding to someone who probably doesn't deserve it sometimes.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 10:46 PM   #37
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I've found the horn to be pretty much useless. I ride so I never need to use it, even though that means yielding to someone who probably doesn't deserve it sometimes.
Then you need THIS horn!!!

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old November 20th, 2017, 10:26 AM   #38
jp8484
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I've found the horn to be pretty much useless. I ride so I never need to use it, even though that means yielding to someone who probably doesn't deserve it sometimes.
I get occasional road rages.. and I find the horn to be too weak to express myself. XD
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Old November 20th, 2017, 12:14 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by jp8484 View Post
I get occasional road rages.. and I find the horn to be too weak to express myself. XD
This is when I'm glad I'm old and more or less past that. Now the worst I do to the stupid people on the road is curse at them. I may wish some gridlock to head their way.... but I have learned how to let the stupid roll off my back. It's not worth raising my blood pressure.

Even in moderate traffic, I can still give myself some driving room (most of the time) and I work to stay out of the way of the stoopid on the roads. They're still idiots, don't get me wrong, but they won't be allowed to hurt me.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 01:54 PM   #40
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I do not engage with idiots. It is a waste of time.

Trying to get a moron to understand that he or she is a moron is... well... moronic in itself. Can't be done.

Instead, I choose to simply go away from them and allow them to inflict their idiocy on someone else.

This also works in daily life. The best move is to STFU, twist the throttle, make yourself scarce and just leave them be. Have a good laugh later.
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