Recommended Alternatives - Chain Cleaning

[gfloyd2002]

I've always used kerosene to clean my chain before I lube it. But I'm not able to find kerosene anywhere on this silly little island. God knows what they use for camping lanterns. Needless to say, commercial purpose built chain cleaners like Motul Chain Clean or Motorex 611 aren't available either.

Last time I did this, I faked it with Simple Green and a brush after a local mechanic swore it wouldn't ruin chain o-rings or cause a fire hazard. I'm not sure I believe him and felt lucky I didn't do much damage or explode following the chain maintenance. This time, I'm hoping for some advice.

I'm considering 3 in 1 oil, simple green or WD-40 as a cleaner. I'm not convinced WD40 would be as bad as I previously thought it would be, and am leaning towards using it. (WD-40 is mostly stoddard solvent and mineral oil, and the solvent is basically kerosine without sulfur and a lower flash point. Seems very much like using kerosine to me.) At any rate, anyone have any alternatives to kerosene or a purpose built chain cleaner, or comments about kerosene alternatives?

[Alex]

WD-40.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Alex

WD-40.

+2

[kkim]

I now buy wd40 by the gallon and put it in a trigger spray bottle. use it to clean and lube stuff and to help stave off rust here.

I do use kerosene for chain cleaning, but wd40 will work just as well.

BTW, just learned this week to use wd40 and a green scrubber pad to clean unpainted, cast aluminum engine cases that were stained with dirt/grease. It didn't make the cases look like new, but it did clean off all of the dirt/grease.

wd40 is wonderful stuff.... though it does leave a strong after taste when you sip it as a cocktail.

[rockNroll]

Gear lube and a rag.

[Bueller999]

Diesel, basically the same as kerosene.

[coondog]

WD-40 is not for the type of lubing you want. It's good for a quick fix around the house etc. but that's it. WD stands for water dispersal, and if you use it for that purpose and then leave the WD-40 on, you'll have rust very shortly. Using the chain lube itself for cleaning the chain is what you could do for now, or mild soap and water with elbow grease. I'm assuming you've got a couple of different size soft brushes or invest in a new Oral-B and use your used up one. I heard the white coating sh** mentioned, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Honda makes the best chain lube is all I hear from guys at the diner. Also I think you and I have sand in common, and not many shops that carry what you want. Sand just kills me (my bike), and I must clean it and rims and crannys after every ride so I just use water and ivory soap with brushes and small rags. I keep my bikes looking sharp and the time consumption would be awful if I pussy-footed around at all. I put my waterproof cover on and lift it up as needed for each area so I can use pressure as well from hose. Google the top cleaners and buy the cheapest, in the end it's you and your utensils that do most of the work anyway. I'd use solvents like kerosene but can't keep them, due to what else you can do with them. Small town.

[gfloyd2002]

Originally Posted by coondog

WD-40 is not for the type of lubing you want. It's good for a quick fix around the house etc. but that's it. WD stands for water dispersal, and if you use it for that purpose and then leave the WD-40 on, you'll have rust very shortly. Using the chain lube itself for cleaning the chain is what you could do for now, or mild soap and water with elbow grease. I'm assuming you've got a couple of different size soft brushes or invest in a new Oral-B and use your used up one. I heard the white coating sh** mentioned, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Honda makes the best chain lube is all I hear from guys at the diner. Also I think you and I have sand in common, and not many shops that carry what you want. Sand just kills me (my bike), and I must clean it and rims and crannys after every ride so I just use water and ivory soap with brushes and small rags. I keep my bikes looking sharp and the time consumption would be awful if I pussy-footed around at all. I put my waterproof cover on and lift it up as needed for each area so I can use pressure as well from hose. Google the top cleaners and buy the cheapest, in the end it's you and your utensils that do most of the work anyway. I'd use solvents like kerosene but can't keep them, due to what else you can do with them. Small town.

Totally agree. I won't use WD40 for lube, just for cleaning. I'll follow the cleaning with a good chain lube. Oddly enough, the local auto parts store had chain lube, so I'm good there.

[setasai]

It's been mentioned before but I find that if you clean the chain super well the first time and then coat it with Dupont's mutiuse teflon lubricant, it stay's clean for super long periods of time and you can pretty much just spray on more Dupont without cleaning with solvent everytime. I guess it's because it dries white/clear like wax and so most things dont stick to it. On that same note, i find a crapload of dirt stuck to the sprocket cover and chain cover instead of the chain itself.

[00NissanNinja]

Originally Posted by setasai

It's been mentioned before but I find that if you clean the chain super well the first time and then coat it with Dupont's mutiuse teflon lubricant, it stay's clean for super long periods of time and you can pretty much just spray on more Dupont without cleaning with solvent everytime.

I concur. When I got the bike from the dealer after they "cleaned and lubed it" It looked like someone got brown butter that doesn't melt and stuck it to my chain. I didn't even know there were letters on the chains there was so much crap on it. After that I cleaned with WD then lubed with the Dupont and the chain has been in great condition since. I still clean it completely but not as often

[littledog]

Another option is to not clean it at all. Just spray it with the honda chain spray every other tank of gas or so, and after riding in the rain.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by littledog

Another option is to not clean it at all.

how's that?

why would you not clean your chain other than being lazy/not wanting to do a dirty job? unfortunately, there's a reason for cleaning the chain... and it's not just for keeping it nice and shiny.

[gfloyd2002]

WD-40 worked wonderfully. Shiny and clean. Did more research on chemistry and now convinced that what I'd heard on WD-40 being hard on o-rings is an old wives tale not backed up by science. Followed it up with Cyclo brand industrial chain lube (moly/graphite). Not familiar with it, but it had a picture of a motorcycle on it and was the only local option. Went on well and looks like it will work great, but messy as hell.

[gfloyd2002]

Just so we have everything in the same thread, here are the results of my research on whether WD40 is harmful to chains: WD40 consists of 50% Stoddard Solvent (which is just desulferized kerosine with a lower flash point), 25% propellant, 15+% Mineral oil (light lubricating oil) 10-% Inert ingredients. My research on the difference between Stoddard Solvent and kerosene show no difference in their effect on rubber or silicone, and their behavior as a solvent appears to be the same as it would apply to o-rings. This makes sense since they are basically the same thing. It appears that any worries about WD-40 would apply equally to kerosene, which most manufacturers recommend to clean their chains. On a good chain, solvent (wether it is kerosine or WD40) should not get past the O rings, because the O rings do what they are supposed to do, seal the inside of the chain. If WD40 should for some reason get past an ring, kerosine or diesel should just as well. And basically this means the ring is shot and the life of the chain is coming to and end anyway. (This would apply to x-rings as well, they appear to seal even better than o-rings.) And testing bears this out, with results attached below and here. However, testing appears to create a slight preference for kerosene in the case of long term exposure, referenced later in the linked thread.

Conclusion of short term exposure, as shown below: WD-40 and Kerosene seem to have negligible to no effect on the O-rings (+/-1%). One month soak of chain rings in WD40 had the same effect on the oring in another study - nothing - leading the author to conclude WD-40 was fine for use. (See 30 day WD40 soak study.) In a third study on long term exposure to various solvents testing failure loads (stretching the the rings until they fail), WD-40 decreased ring strength by 20%, whereas Kerosene decreased strength by only 12%. Results attached. The extra 8% wear from WD-40 is a slight concern with very long term exposure. So . . . don't soak your chain for a couple of weeks in any solvent - it will weaken over time. But for short exposures, there isn't any difference between manufacturer suggested kerosene and WD-40. No matter what solvent you use to clean your chain, wipe it off thoroughly - maybe even give it a good shot of air to get it completely off, then add a good lubricant to keep your rings happy.

At the end of it all, I'd go with kerosene for use over the life of the bike given the choice (which I didn't have this cleaning), but I am convinced that use of WD-40 has no material detrimental effect on the chain overall when used for a quick clean.

[Havok]

Originally Posted by setasai

It's been mentioned before but I find that if you clean the chain super well the first time and then coat it with Dupont's mutiuse teflon lubricant, it stay's clean for super long periods of time and you can pretty much just spray on more Dupont without cleaning with solvent everytime. I guess it's because it dries white/clear like wax and so most things dont stick to it. On that same note, i find a crapload of dirt stuck to the sprocket cover and chain cover instead of the chain itself.

I use this a well. I use the spray as a cleaner as well, I spray it down then use a nylon brush while it's still wet it pulls the previous stuff off. After the scrub I run a rag to finish cleaning the the chain then a last spray of the Teflon to lube it back up.

[gfloyd2002]

Just to close the loop on this thread and tie it into another regarding a new product available, I'm now recommending the DuPont Motorcycle Degreaser for Chains and Sprockets, which looks like it is better than Kerosene on o-rings. I've been using it and it is working well. More information here and here on the DuPont cleaner, which comes highly recommended by WebBike World.

[massacremasses]

wait so do you take your chain off to clean it?

[gfloyd2002]

Nope. Just put the bike in neutral. (Do NOT have it running, unless you've always thought it would be great to end up with a pirate hook for a hand.) Put the bike up on a rear stand. Apply chain cleaner. Rub with paper or shop towel and/or Grunge Brush (pictured). You can also use a toothbrush. Preferably your roommates'. Spin the tire to expose more chain, you can just hold your towel or brush still while you spin the wheel to make it really easy. Watch your fingers, and under no circumstances allow your 3 year old to be the wheel spinner when you've got your fingers near the sprocket. This is how my son learned the word "D@MN#T" You can do it without a rear stand, but not nearly as easily, and you'll have to move the bike back and forth a bit to expose the full chain. Repeat as needed. Once your towels stop getting dirty and you've got all the cleaner off, and you have a nice dry, clean chain, liberally apply chain lube. (I use DuPont Teflon Multi-Use. Maxima Chain Wax and DuPont Teflon Chain Saver Wax also get great reviews.) Whole process takes about 10 minutes. Longer if you didn't follow my advice on the 3 year old and need to stop to dress your wounds.

[massacremasses]

lol sweet thanks. Dang I bought a new helmet and boots instead of a rear stand....


My 3 year old will be sad he cants help

[1LoneWolf]

I've used gun cleaner before, when I ran out of WD40. I used Hoppes No. 9. I've also used Break Free CLP to clean my chain a few times. It's what the US military uses to clean and lubricate their rifles (hence the name CLP; clean, lube, protect). CLP has Teflon in it, so it would be a pretty good lube theoretically, but since it is a lightweight oil, it would fling off or dry. I followed it up with better lube (I use PJ1 or even Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil). But yeah, I've used gun cleaner on my chain and it worked pretty well.

[gfloyd2002]

For the record, gun cleaners are usually ammonia based and always too strong to be used to clean a motorcycle chain. They won't be good for your o-rings. One goal of a gun cleaner is to emulsify anything petroleum based. Here is an example of how strong Hoppes #9 is, for example: Prolonged contact with nickel, chrome or aluminum is not recommended with any Hoppe’s solvents. In addition chrome or aluminum should not be soaked or submerged in any Hoppe’s solvent. The reason is that the slightest scratch or nick in the plating, the solvents will penetrate the flaw and dissolve the underlying copper substrate & cause the chrome/nickel plating to chip & peel further. This is some pretty strong solvent -- can you imagine what it does to o-rings? Definitely not recommended for chain cleaning.

Similar point on using any light oil or motor oil for lubrication of a chain. They aren't going to stay on long enough to be useful for more than a few miles, and chemically aren't a good match for the type of lubing that you need.

[massacremasses]

just bought all that stuff and a chain cleaner brush for just under $30 shipped from amazon

[Guoseph]

FWIW, I've used the actual chain lube to clean the chain as well. Maybe a bit expensive and depends on the brand of chain lube you use, but seemed to do a good job (just chain lube and a rag). And since the stuff was designed to lubricate it in the first place, no concerns of whether it'll harm the O-rings like WD-40.

I'm going to give the Dupont stuff a try once it gets here.

[Nemesis]

I've used this before and I found it to be just as messy if not inconvenient:



What I use now is brake contact/cleaner bottle spray and a rag. Spin the wheel by hand and spray from behind (rear sprocket) then spray a on rag and wipe off dirt & grime.

Chain looks like new every time.

[alex.s]

wasn't someone saying using harsh solvants like brake cleaner decreases the life of the orings faster than using other solvants because it dries up the oil in the rubber faster or something.

[rockNroll]

Use gear lube to clean/lube your chain.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by alex.s

wasn't someone saying using harsh solvants like brake cleaner decreases the life of the orings faster than using other solvants because it dries up the oil in the rubber faster or something.

You would think, huh?

But if you think about it...carb cleaners has the same ingredients as a brake contact cleaner yet it's used in our carbs. And what's in our carbs? The rubbery diaphragm which is more acceptable to hardening and ripping than an o-ring if your claim is true.

9+ yrs and a chain's never snapped or failed on me. And consider this...I'm not traveling at cruising speeds.

I'm not saying it's the right way or the wrong way...all I know is it works and others (racers) use the same method/product as well.

[Boom King]

I've heard of riders using WD-40 to clean their chains and never had any issues or premature wear even after 40,000 kms. I'm sure the Du Pont stuff is great. I'll keep an eye out for it but I'll continue to use WD-40 in the mean time.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by 1LoneWolf

...I've also used Break Free CLP to clean my chain a few times. It's what the US military uses to clean and lubricate their rifles (hence the name CLP; clean, lube, protect). CLP has Teflon in it, so it would be a pretty good lube theoretically, but since it is a lightweight oil, it would fling off or dry.

+ 1 on the C.L.P. I use to use that **it on everythang! Expensive as hell though, now that i can't get it for free. For those that don't know, some military weapons have rubber o-rings and C.L.P will not damage them. Definitely a 'lil lite for motorcycle chain.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

You would think, huh?

But if you think about it...carb cleaners has the same ingredients as a brake contact cleaner yet it's used in our carbs. And what's in our carbs? The rubbery diaphragm which is more acceptable to hardening and ripping than an o-ring if your claim is true.

to be fair, you arent spraying carb cleaner through your carbs every week like you do with your chain. not to mention the rubber diaphrams dont take any load and can be a specifically tailored compound for the harsh gas environment in the carb. also the rubber gaskets in carbs don't have friction or stress on them like the orings in a chain do.

im not saying using harsh solvants on your chain is going to break your orings. obviously you have plenty of experience of it not doing that. but to discount there being any difference i think is turning a blind eye to some results already posted. 10% is 10%, regardless of whether you replace before you get there or not.

[gfloyd2002]

If you scroll a bit to where I posted the study done on this, you will see that brake cleaner has a seriously detrimental effect on o-rings. Reduces them to 70% of strength. Does that mean that in any individual case it will cause a problem? No. But in a large sample size, you are going to be more likely to have a problem than if you use the stuff that is chemically engineered to clean chains with the best possible effect. Why someone would use a more expensive product (like CLP or brake cleaner) when purposely designed chain cleaners built for purpose are out there, I can't figure out.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by alex.s

to be fair, you arent spraying carb cleaner through your carbs every week like you do with your chain. not to mention the rubber diaphrams dont take any load and can be a specifically tailored compound for the harsh gas environment in the carb. also the rubber gaskets in carbs don't have friction or stress on them like the orings in a chain do.

im not saying using harsh solvants on your chain is going to break your orings. obviously you have plenty of experience of it not doing that. but to discount there being any difference i think is turning a blind eye to some results already posted. 10% is 10%, regardless of whether you replace before you get there or not.

I hear what you guys are saying but this is 9+ years of experience and not one single problem. Also, I'd clean my chain once every 3 months...maybe every 4 months. Prior to racing when I rode the streets I've probably cleaned it once every two months and logged 40-50K miles a year. Again not one problem.

But this is kinda ironic cuz you guys are so cautious about using the right cleaner for your chain in fear of damaging or snapping yet don't wear proper full gear all the time (head to toe). The irony just kills me.

Originally Posted by gfloyd2002

If you scroll a bit to where I posted the study done on this, you will see that brake cleaner has a seriously detrimental effect on o-rings. Reduces them to 70% of strength. Does that mean that in any individual case it will cause a problem? No. But in a large sample size, you are going to be more likely to have a problem than if you use the stuff that is chemically engineered to clean chains with the best possible effect. Why someone would use a more expensive product (like CLP or brake cleaner) when purposely designed chain cleaners built for purpose are out there, I can't figure out.

Plz do me a favor and tell me which post #.

[gfloyd2002]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

Plz do me a favor and tell me which post #.

Here are the charts again. Probably not a huge deal, because the testing involved long term exposure. When cleaning the chain, you have the cleaner off and on quickly - like you said, chance of it creating a problem are probably small. However, it does show that some solvents aren't as o-ring friendly as others. Even on the one day soak, you can see the o-rings swelling significantly with the carb cleaner and changing their composition - the slimy feel on them is the o-ring nitrile breaking down. And while I don't have certain data on this, the charts indicate that over the life of a chain repeated short term exposure to harsher solvents might reduce the strength of the o-rings.

This doesn't prove that carb cleaner is going to break your chain, just that it somehow effects the chemistry of the o-rings on longer term exposure. In any given case, like yours, you might never see a problem using even the harshest solvents. But I also think you've increased risks of chain failure slightly. By one percent? 10? 30? Enough to matter or change your habits? Beats me. You might be okay 999 times out of 1000 and it just doesn't matter. But you might be fine only 70 times out of 100, and then it starts to look different. Given that cheap options exist that clean the chain very well with a lesser risk to o-rings, I figure I may as well use them and not mess around with it. I should note that the Dupont Motorcycle Degreaser I referenced below wasn't around when these tests were done. However, it was specifically designed to be a better alternative than Kerosene, which was the top performer in the attached tests, and according to DuPont, it was confirmed by an independent laboratory to have no effect on o-rings. The stuff was engineered to work on high nitrile or Buna-n materials o-rings.

But this is kinda ironic cuz you guys are so cautious about using the right cleaner for your chain in fear of damaging or snapping yet don't wear proper full gear all the time (head to toe).

Oh, I'm even more paranoid about my riding gear and ATGATT. I just posted a similarly anal-retentive study on the quality of impact protection in the Gear section, encouraging people to rethink use of D3o pads and Alpinestars Bio Armor in favor of better quality (sometimes less expensive) stuff, like SAS-TEC armor.

[Nemesis]

^^^
Good post and will take that into consideration. Thx.

But for now I'm good with cleaning it with brake contact cleaner. It's fast, simple and cleaner.

[gfloyd2002]

I believe we just experienced respectful disagreement and productive discussion where each side conceded some ground. I don't know the exact odds are that using brake cleaner on your chain will harm it, but I do know that the odds of this sort of pleasant disagreement happening on the internet are infinitessimly small. Yay us.

[1LoneWolf]

The Hoppe's No. 9 didn't stay on the chain long enough to do any damage IMO. I only cleaned with it then oiled it with PJ1. The CLP wouldn't do any damage because it's meant for AR15's which have rubber parts under the extractor. I only used Hoppe's No. 9 in a pinch when nothing else was available. I wouldn't use it if I had WD40.

[1LoneWolf]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

+ 1 on the C.L.P. I use to use that **it on everythang! Expensive as hell though, now that i can't get it for free. For those that don't know, some military weapons have rubber o-rings and C.L.P will not damage them. Definitely a 'lil lite for motorcycle chain.

CLP is good stuff. 12 bucks a can is pretty pricey though.

Thank you for your service and God Bless.

[thomason2wheels]

Originally Posted by alex.s

wasn't someone saying using harsh solvants like brake cleaner decreases the life of the orings faster than using other solvants because it dries up the oil in the rubber faster or something.

Iirc, brakleen and the other stuff like that contains carbontetrachloride, which severely attacks rubber by drying it out so it cracks prematurely. Not good for oring life.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by thomason2wheels

nice sig.