Oh the insanity.... A conservative discussion

[almost40]

How is it that the voters that lean left in this country, hate this country so much?? Why is it that they wont call out their leaders on the crazy stuff they do?? How is it they see everything in such a way as to never question the "authority" figures of the party? Why is it that they are so blinded by ideology?
A conservative discussion will begin.
Thanks to Alex, I can now ignore anyone I dont see fit to join this discussion and they wont be able to post here. (Cencorship rules....lol not)
A few might slip by, but PM me if you are not happy with the content posted by an individual and Ill be happy to ignore them right out of this discussion.

I figure the ignore feature was added for this exact purpose, so why not use it.
Im just as "entitled" as the next guy right?
This might get interesting....Ya never know.

[Alex]

If ever a particular thread required spellcheck...

[kyrider]

Originally Posted by almost40

How is it that the voters that lean left in this country, hate this country so much?? Why is it that they wont call out their leaders on the crazy stuff they do?? How is it they see everything in such a way as to never question the "authority" figures of the party? Why is it that they are so blinded by ideology?
A conservative discussion will begin.
Thanks to Alex, I can now ignore anyone I dont see fit to join this discussion and they wont be able to post here. (Cencorship rules....lol not)
A few might slip by, but PM me if you are not happy with the content posted by an individual and Ill be happy to ignore them right out of this discussion.

I figure the ignore feature was added for this exact purpose, so why not use it.
Im just as "entitled" as the next guy right?
This might get interesting....Ya never know.

I so agree!

One must ask the question what if this was not my president? What is what was going on was from a president I disagree with?

We must all ask this question.

[kyrider]

Since I am on soooooo many people ignore list maybe this can get through with the use of my friend almost40 post.

Link to original page on YouTube.


Think about the power you have given Obama?

[kyrider]

A liberal conversation.....
Well since Almost40 decided to start a conversation that is sure to become extremely biased to those right-wing members on the conservative side, I figured I'd give voice to the opposition. Therefore following his lead I'm starting a conversation of my own and asking that it be kept civil discussing how the ultra-conservative right wing leaders are destroying this country with their extremist measures.

Taking a quote from our lovely rightest leader and modifying it for our needs:

Quote:
How is it that the voters that lean right in this country, hate this country so much?? Why is it that they wont call out their leaders on the crazy stuff they do?? How is it they see everything in such a way as to never question the "authority" figures of the party? Why is it that they are so blinded by ideology?
A liberal discussion will begin.
Thanks to Alex, I can now ignore anyone I dont see fit to join this discussion and they wont be able to post here. (Cencorship rules....lol not)
A few might slip by, but PM me if you are not happy with the content posted by an individual and Ill be happy to ignore them right out of this discussion.

I figure the ignore feature was added for this exact purpose, so why not use it.
Im just as "entitled" as the next guy right?
This might get interesting....Ya never know.
Thanks go out to almost40 for this lovely quote.

Also when I use the term liberal I am speaking of it's core meaning, that of favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression, favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties. Not the b/s that the (mostly the conservative controlled) media has lead most people to believe.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Free speech huh?

Guess not since I am on this persons ignore list.

Stalin would be proud!

[Alex]

So, the reply-blocking tied to ignore lists doesn't work in the off-topic section anymore. It wasn't to limit political dissent, it was in response to numerous requests about a small number of folks mucking up a number of popular threads, but without violating the TOS. Allowing the thread creator some control to prevent those issues makes the job of a moderator a little easier, and helps keep the wishes of many (busy happy useful on-topic threads) on track.

Originally Posted by almost40

Thanks to Alex, I can now ignore anyone I dont see fit to join this discussion and they wont be able to post here. (Cencorship rules....lol not)

"Censorship". Was that so hard?

Originally Posted by almost40

How is it that the voters that lean left in this country, hate this country so much??

I'm sorry, but any thread that starts out with "how is it that anyone disagrees with me must hate their country?", has too much potential entertainment value to exclude anyone from mocking you directly.

[Samer]

Originally Posted by almost40

How is it that the voters that lean left in this country, hate this country so much??

Wow dude. Somebody needs a reality check. Do you know which group of people really do hate this country so much? It is people who hate this country. I know you like to generalize but the only place where all 'left-leaning' people hate this country is in your head

Please look in the mirror and think about what you are saying. It is beyond absurd.

You spend so much time labeling people and criticizing them. Yet you spend so little time reflecting on whether your 'reality' is consistent with the real reality. I'm sorry to tell you that you have sailed far off course and you need to have an honest conversation with yourself.

It is okay to disagree with someone. It is not okay to question their intensions without solid proof. To do this to one person is unjustified, to do it to a group that is practically half of the U.S. population is madness. The title of this thread has the word 'insanity' in it. How appropriate.

It is really sad that in threads like this and in the previous OWS thread, we spent so little time having a real discussion on substance thanks to people like you.

[almost40]

Well its good to see that even an "illiterate hick, dolt, sack of illiterate dogmeat, and bubkis" like me can point to an error in policy here on ninjette and you can see the "light". (Alex)
Your welcome to lock up this thread if you please. Alex
Its entire point was to make the point that even "good intentions" can go terribly wrong.
Im glad you have corrected the error in this policy.
Now will you admit this policy was a mistake?? Thats the 64 dollar question?
Guess Ill go empty my ignore list. Im not about trying to censor anyones opinion. I was just trying to make a point.
There are plenty of places here in off topic to voice ones opinion. This thread is unneeded but was in fact usefull. (to me and others of my ilk anyway.)

[Alex]

I'm tired of arguing with you Kevin. You're a net drain on this site and on my time. There are plenty of 250 sites that might be better suited to you if you want to keep picking fights:

www.ninja250.org
www.newninja.com
www.ninja250forum.com

[rockNroll]

Happy New Year!!!

[pilotgeorge747]

So excuse me if I am wrong but basically the idea of this thread was "let's discuss politics but if I don't agree with your views I'll just ignore them". Why even bother trying to have a discussion in the first place if you aren't even willing to accept (although not necessarily agree with) other people's views. That is one thing I personally can't stand about "some people in this country".

[almost40]

Originally Posted by Alex

I'm tired of arguing with you Kevin. You're a net drain on this site and on my time. There are plenty of 250 sites that might be better suited to you if you want to keep picking fights:

www.ninja250.org
www.newninja.com
www.ninja250forum.com

I'm not picking fights. I'm voicing my opinion. I'm sorry its not the same as yours in all areas Alex.
It is, what it is.
Have I been a little more crass as of late?
Sure.
I dont recall you ever saying or doing some of the things that you have done to me as of late, to any other member here.
I cant remember a time where you have ever corrected anyone else's spelling, grammer, or writing style in a thread while ignoring the mistakes made by others in the very same thread. I dont ever remember you calling a member here anything even remotely close to the things you called me.
I considered and still consider you a very thoughtful and intelegent person and posted as such on many occasions. (Even when we disagreed) You run a great website. You are indeed, a professional at it. Theres no denying that fact. I have yet to encounter a better mod.

Now, why are we to the point where you feel the need to say I'm a net drain on this site and your time? Could it be as simple as I don't agree with your political side of a given argument and I voice my opinion weather its your post of someone else's? Is it that simple? Take a good look around here Alex. There are only a hand full of members that care to argue politics.
We all do the same thing. We all say, your wrong, I'm right, and point to our "facts" biased or not.
I understand that this is your site and I'm grateful that you haven't taken to an outright ban. (I truly am.)
Could all of this have been handled in a PM? Sure, but when one is ridiculed in public the need to "save face" overrides the need to get things back on the right track.
Ill apologize for my crassness as of late. I have no problem with doing that. I felt as if i was singled out, and felt compelled to give as good as I got.

Can we go back to the way it was in days past when our debate was civil? IDK?
I can.

[Samer]

Originally Posted by almost40

I'm not picking fights. I'm voicing my opinion.

Is it your opinion that all 'left-leaning' people hate this country?

If yes, then you're delusional.

If no, then you are picking fights and your post is a lie.

Either way, you've established one thing; you are totally unworthy and incapable of a civilized debate.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by Samer

Is it your opinion that all 'left-leaning' people hate this country?

If yes, then you're delusional.

If no, then you are picking fights and your post is a lie.

Either way, you've established one thing; you are totally unworthy and incapable of a civilized debate.

Thank you for your opinion. Glad to see it made its way into this thread.

[CynicalC]

A+ Thread. Will read again

[almost40]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

A+ Thread. Will read again

Having flashbacks are ya???

[Samer]

Originally Posted by almost40

Thank you for your opinion. Glad to see it made its way into this thread.

Was it your intent to shut out non-extremists in this thread?

Glad to see you believe in the 1st amendment. I called you out on your bullshit. I noticed you use pathetic sarcasm to hide behind your indefensible positions.

You might want to hang out in another forum where like minded hacks will not question your extremist ideas.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by Samer

Was it your intent to shut out non-extremists in this thread?

Glad to see you believe in the 1st amendment. I called you out on your bullshit. I noticed you use pathetic sarcasm to hide behind your indefensible positions.

You might want to hang out in another forum where like minded hacks will not question your extremist ideas.

The point of this thread has obviously went over your head samer.
Try reading it again.

[massacremasses]

Its more fun when people disagree...

[almost40]

Originally Posted by massacremasses

Its more fun when people disagree...

agreed
Wait, that isnt fun.

[shiroganeshinobi]

Originally Posted by almost40

How is it that the voters that lean left in this country, hate this country so much?? Why is it that they wont call out their leaders on the crazy stuff they do?? How is it they see everything in such a way as to never question the "authority" figures of the party? Why is it that they are so blinded by ideology?

You said you don't understand the left, I can assure you that is your main problem.

The day you understand this video is the day you will see the light.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[revstriker]

Interesting to see the point of this thread go over so many people's head.

As for the original question, I wouldn't make the generalization that all left leaning voters hate the country. But I would say that there is a lot of left leaning and far left people who do not like what the country as become, and are desperate to change it. The fact that you can work hard and make more money than someone who does not. The fact that companies are in business to make profits. The fact that we are militarily stronger than any other nation. The fact that we have put the interests of the United States above the interests of other nations. We certainly have a President who feels this way.

[Alex]

Right. The president and other left leaning people don't want hard work to be rewarded, don't want companies to make profits, don't want the military to be stronger than other nations, and want other nation's interests to be above ours. Do you really believe that?

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by Alex

Right. The president and other left leaning people don't want hard work to be rewarded, don't want companies to make profits, don't want the military to be stronger than other nations, and want other nation's interests to be above ours. Do you really believe that?

Yes, I do. He talks about "income equality" which really means income redistribution. He wants to limit the reward for hard work, so yes. He wants to keep corporate taxes high, and wants to increase their cost for things like healthcare. So again, yes, he wants to take some of their profits. As for his views of the military, again, yes. He wrote about this in "Dreams from my Father" when he criticized what he called "the powerful" for it's "dull complacency" and how "sophisticated military hardware" is often used as an "unthinking application". As a candidate he also ran on a platform of cutting spending on missile defense systems, and that he would slow down the development of future combat systems. So yes, I believe that deep down, Obama sees a strong US military as a weakness. As for US interests, and example of Obama putting the interests of others above the US is his support of European Union's Common Security and Defense Policy which is by design to replace a lot of the functions (and all of the functions) of NATO.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by shiroganeshinobi

You said you don't understand the left, I can assure you that is your main problem.

The day you understand this video is the day you will see the light.

Link to original page on YouTube.

The same could apply to chomsky. If he believed something different he wouldnt be sitting where he was sitting.
How completely absurd.

Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
Wake up dude.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by revstriker

Yes, I do. He talks about "income equality" which really means income redistribution.

Maybe to you. But it relies on a whole bunch of assumptions to get there that most wouldn't agree with. We can go through them if necessary, but I think we both know where it ends up. For one thing, talking about the problems of extreme income inequality caused in part by bad tax policy is not the same as arguing for income equality. Opportunity doesn't equal result. But pointing to income equality as the goal and knocking it down as a straw-man argument can be entertaining, I guess.

Originally Posted by revstriker

He wants to keep corporate taxes high, and wants to increase their cost for things like healthcare. So again, yes, he wants to take some of their profits.

The corporate tax argument is empty. We both know this. The costs of healthcare to both individuals and the corporations who pay for such a large portion of it are rising at unsustainable rates. Putting aside all of bluster and fear of "Obamacare", the small steps taken over the years to reform medicare, attempt to rein in costs, gain efficiencies through technology, process, etc.; haven't done anything significant to affect these continually rising costs. Projections such as these show healthcare costing 100% of the GDP within some of our lifetimes. It's not sustainable. It's not a matter of raising costs on businesses, or moving the costs around from businesses to individuals or back again. It's figuring out how it works for everybody going forward.

Originally Posted by revstriker

As for his views of the military, again, yes. He wrote about this in "Dreams from my Father" when he criticized what he called "the powerful" for it's "dull complacency" and how "sophisticated military hardware" is often used as an "unthinking application". As a candidate he also ran on a platform of cutting spending on missile defense systems, and that he would slow down the development of future combat systems. So yes, I believe that deep down, Obama sees a strong US military as a weakness.

That's another huge stretch. Your prerogative to believe whatever you want, but it isn't based on anything tangible. From ramping up the drone programs, to supporting the latest electronic warfare capabilities, to greatly increasing programs and support for military families, to strengthening military bases in key areas of the world, it's terribly hard to paint Obama as a peace-loving leader who doesn't understand the military realities. Heck, there's any number of sites like this one that list all of the things he's done to spend too much or act too rashly on military endeavors.

Originally Posted by revstriker

As for US interests, and example of Obama putting the interests of others above the US is his support of European Union's Common Security and Defense Policy which is by design to replace a lot of the functions (and all of the functions) of NATO.

It doesn't have to be NATO vs. CSDP. It's a matter of neither one of them working in Europe right now, and finding a way to fix that. According to Gates in his last speech in Europe a few months ago, on the topic of the future of NATO (link to transcript), the point is clear that America might not be interested in picking up such a huge part of the tab for European defense. He says it better than I can paraphrase:

Originally Posted by Robert Gates

President Obama and I believe that despite the budget pressures, it would be a grave mistake for the U.S. to withdraw from its global responsibilities. And in Singapore last week, I outlined the many areas where U.S. defense engagement and investment in Asia was slated to grow further in coming years, even as America’s traditional allies in that region rightfully take on the role of full partners in their own defense.

With respect to Europe, for the better part of six decades there has been relatively little doubt or debate in the United States about the value and necessity of the transatlantic alliance. The benefits of a Europe whole, prosperous and free after being twice devastated by wars requiring American intervention was self evident. Thus, for most of the Cold War U.S. governments could justify defense investments and costly forward bases that made up roughly 50 percent of all NATO military spending. But some two decades after the collapse of the Berlin Wall, the U.S. share of NATO defense spending has now risen to more than 75 percent – at a time when politically painful budget and benefit cuts are being considered at home.

The blunt reality is that there will be dwindling appetite and patience in the U.S. Congress – and in the American body politic writ large – to expend increasingly precious funds on behalf of nations that are apparently unwilling to devote the necessary resources or make the necessary changes to be serious and capable partners in their own defense. Nations apparently willing and eager for American taxpayers to assume the growing security burden left by reductions in European defense budgets.

That's not putting Europe or any of its individual countries over America, it's instead the inverse; America shouldn't be paying the bill for countries who are more than capable of shouldering a larger portion of their own burden.

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by Alex

Maybe to you. But it relies on a whole bunch of assumptions to get there that most wouldn't agree with. We can go through them if necessary, but I think we both know where it ends up. For one thing, talking about the problems of extreme income inequality caused in part by bad tax policy is not the same as arguing for income equality. Opportunity doesn't equal result. But pointing to income equality as the goal and knocking it down as a straw-man argument can be entertaining, I guess.

I don't think you have to rely on any assumptions to understand Obama's position. He has already indicated that he thinks certain people get paid too much. He's on record multiple times saying exactly that. He has proposed moderating that through regulation and taxes.

The corporate tax argument is empty. We both know this. The costs of healthcare to both individuals and the corporations who pay for such a large portion of it are rising at unsustainable rates. Putting aside all of bluster and fear of "Obamacare", the small steps taken over the years to reform medicare, attempt to rein in costs, gain efficiencies through technology, process, etc.; haven't done anything significant to affect these continually rising costs. Projections such as these show healthcare costing 100% of the GDP within some of our lifetimes. It's not sustainable. It's not a matter of raising costs on businesses, or moving the costs around from businesses to individuals or back again. It's figuring out how it works for everybody going forward.

I don't disagree about the costs of healthcare. But the answer is not having the government come in for the rescue. They have already had a negative effect on healthcare costs, and will most likely have a negative effect on overall healthcare.

That's another huge stretch. Your prerogative to believe whatever you want, but it isn't based on anything tangible. From ramping up the drone programs, to supporting the latest electronic warfare capabilities, to greatly increasing programs and support for military families, to strengthening military bases in key areas of the world, it's terribly hard to paint Obama as a peace-loving leader who doesn't understand the military realities. Heck, there's any number of sites like this one that list all of the things he's done to spend too much or act too rashly on military endeavors.

I agree that Obama has made good use of the US Military since he has become president. This is in contrast of his positions prior to setting foot in the white house.

It doesn't have to be NATO vs. CSDP. It's a matter of neither one of them working in Europe right now, and finding a way to fix that. According to Gates in his last speech in Europe a few months ago, on the topic of the future of NATO (link to transcript), the point is clear that America might not be interested in picking up such a huge part of the tab for European defense. He says it better than I can paraphrase:



That's not putting Europe or any of its individual countries over America, it's instead the inverse; America shouldn't be paying the bill for countries who are more than capable of shouldering a larger portion of their own burden.

Yes. It also doesn't really have anything to do with CSDP. I agree with Gates that the burden of European security needs to be transferred more to the Europeans. There was already a plan in place under NATO to achieve that goal. The CSDP is designed to replace NATO, and at the same time, limit US influence in Europe. Even former Sec. of State Madeleine Albright (and I'm certainly not a fan of hers) sees this as a bad deal for the US, warning that it would discriminate against non-EU members of NATO.

But aside from the CSDP, I believe, as many do, that the United States is viewed as a much weaker nation than it was prior to Obama taking office. His tour of apologies, his bowing down to other nation's leaders, these and other things have helped weaken the image of the US, and has hurt US interests.

[kyrider]

Obama has weakened his position on Iran by the extensions he has given them.

Get a pair will ya?

[Alex]

Originally Posted by revstriker

I don't think you have to rely on any assumptions to understand Obama's position. He has already indicated that he thinks certain people get paid too much. He's on record multiple times saying exactly that. He has proposed moderating that through regulation and taxes.

Find that record of quotes, and post up the proposed regulation and taxes to fix what people are being paid. Sounds like it shouldn't be too hard.

Originally Posted by revstriker

I don't disagree about the costs of healthcare. But the answer is not having the government come in for the rescue. They have already had a negative effect on healthcare costs, and will most likely have a negative effect on overall healthcare.

I'm in healthcare. I understand the industry pretty well. It's one of the most challenging to do business in for a variety of unique reasons, and regulation is never going to be too far away from making it work. Mixing profit motives with activities where people die when things aren't done well, coupled with the inherent conflicts between payers, payees, and the consumers of healthcare, well, it's complicated. It's so far removed from any simple "I build something at x price and sell it at y, and the market will decide my success", that government is always going to be involved. There are any number of business models to try and flip the profit motive to improve the cost and quality motives (one example is accountable care organizations, another is the growth of Health Insurance Exchanges). None of these can or will exist without government regulation spelling out how these can and should work.

Originally Posted by revstriker

Yes. It also doesn't really have anything to do with CSDP. I agree with Gates that the burden of European security needs to be transferred more to the Europeans. There was already a plan in place under NATO to achieve that goal. The CSDP is designed to replace NATO, and at the same time, limit US influence in Europe. Even former Sec. of State Madeleine Albright (and I'm certainly not a fan of hers) sees this as a bad deal for the US, warning that it would discriminate against non-EU members of NATO.

You're dragging up 9 year old quotes from Albright to support a position that at this point in time is out of date.

Originally Posted by revstriker

But aside from the CSDP, I believe, as many do, that the United States is viewed as a much weaker nation than it was prior to Obama taking office. His tour of apologies, his bowing down to other nation's leaders, these and other things have helped weaken the image of the US, and has hurt US interests.

This is a farce. How America is viewed from the outside was more profoundly changed during the prior administration's, let's say "challenges", with dealing with the world, than any other portion of modern times. It would be interesting to try and list what a leader of this country could have in fact done taking over from GWB to further lower our image and standing. And no, Obama wasn't able to thread that needle.

[kyrider]

I am cooking spaghetti!

[shiroganeshinobi]

Originally Posted by almost40

The same could apply to chomsky. If he believed something different he wouldnt be sitting where he was sitting.
How completely absurd.

Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
Wake up dude.

Wow, I just showed you a Chomsky video and you replied back to me talking about propaganda and totalitarianism. You just proved to everyone that you have no clue about what you're talking about. When I say everyone, I talk about people who knows what Chomsky is about.

Edit:

Wanted to drop this great link about healthcare costs. The name of the site is hilarious.

http://www.pluralofanecdote.com/

[alex.s]

i'm a libertarian. probably closer to republican than democrat especially when it comes to money. i'm a prude. and i don't think its anyones business if i am or not.
but i'm not so ignorant that i make wild logic jumps and assumptions and use those assumptions and logic jumps to label half of a country as unpatriotic imbeciles. i do realize that people have different opinions on how to solve the issues we all face. i do realize that some people don't understand the logic of an opposing side, and will still blindly argue against it simply because it isn't the solution they understand. it is usually the same people who don't bother even listening to the other sides suggestions. if you think not listening to half of the people in a country is a good way to run things... good for you. its too bad for you that we live in a representative republic with democracy. it sounds like you would prefer to live in a place where only one partys ideals are taken into consideration. maybe you would even like having a sole official in charge of seeing the entirety of the government below them adopts this "ideal plan" and that way we won't ever have to even HEAR opposing view points. why not take it a step farther? just get rid of the opposition... i hear gas chambers work well.




and yes, i did intentionally take it to nazis to show how ridiculous you are all being. happy new year, folks.

[Alex]

Godwin's law foul, @alex.s automatically loses.

[Live2ride]

This concludes every thought I have concerning political debates amongst the public: