Ninja 250 Engine Oil Cooler

[Somchai]

Let me add one more information, since I've made an oil-change on saturday and since Motul 300V 15W50 was sold out I'd go with 300V 10W40.
Now I see that the oil-temperature is more than 10 degrees in C higher as it was before.

[crackez]

Since I live in Greece, we tend to have quite high temps in the summer, 40-50C(under shadow) are consider cool during the peak of the summer

Under sunlight a cars cabin can exceed 70+C easily

It will be a nice upgrade to my FI(europe) Ninja, also for people saying ...hot oil is better, trust me it's not better for the engine parts, abusing ur engine at very hot temps of more than 110C is way worse than abusing the engine at lets say 85C

A small oil filter did bring down temps from a moped that I had (97.1cc -> 111cc, running without oil filter got 95-100C ..with a small oil cooler I had 72C and one time I hardly manage to get at 75C during summer under the sun)

P.S. Studies showed that best temp for an engine is around 80C ..so you know and don't say things like having more temp is better if you still believe that then reduce the surface of the radiator(cover it with something) and get 150+ C :P)

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by crackez

Since I live in Greece, we tend to have quite high temps in the summer, 40-50C(under shadow) are consider cool during the peak of the summer

Under sunlight a cars cabin can exceed 70+C easily

It will be a nice upgrade to my FI(europe) Ninja, also for people saying ...hot oil is better, trust me it's not better for the engine parts, abusing ur engine at very hot temps of more than 110C is way worse than abusing the engine at lets say 85C

A small oil filter did bring down temps from a moped that I had (97.1cc -> 111cc, running without oil filter got 95-100C ..with a small oil cooler I had 72C and one time I hardly manage to get at 75C during summer under the sun)

P.S. Studies showed that best temp for an engine is around 80C ..so you know and don't say things like having more temp is better if you still believe that then reduce the surface of the radiator(cover it with something) and get 150+ C :P)

Use an ester-based oil (Group V) if you are concerned about it. Temps are only an issue if the oil can't handle it. Not a problem with most synthetics, especially Group IV and above. 85C is 185F - that's not hot for an engine - it's actually cold.

What we think is "hot" and what the engine and oil think is "hot" are not the same. Engines, and oil, are designed to run ("operating temp") at 212F and above. Load and RPM also factor-in, and in most street riding neither come close to what an engine experiences in race conditions.

80C is 176F - too cold for optimum efficiency and below normal operating temps.

Running oil at 212F and above quickly burns-off impurities that you collect during start-up and enriched running. Staying below that allows them to accumulate.

EDIT: Mobil 1 is claiming protection up to 500F - https://mobiloil.com/en/article/why-...oil-protection

"Mobil 1 advanced synthetic motor oil provides outstanding high-temperature performance and is proven to protect at engine temperatures up to 500°F."

It's a Group III synthetic.

Don't sweat it, just run good oil.

[crackez]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Use an ester-based oil (Group V) if you are concerned about it. Temps are only an issue if the oil can't handle it. Not a problem with most synthetics, especially Group IV and above. 85C is 185F - that's not hot for an engine - it's actually cold.

What we think is "hot" and what the engine and oil think is "hot" are not the same. Engines, and oil, are designed to run ("operating temp") at 212F and above. Load and RPM also factor-in, and in most street riding neither come close to what an engine experiences in race conditions.

80C is 176F - too cold for optimum efficiency and below normal operating temps.

Running oil at 212F and above quickly burns-off impurities that you collect during start-up and enriched running. Staying below that allows them to accumulate.

EDIT: Mobil 1 is claiming protection up to 500F - https://mobiloil.com/en/article/why-...oil-protection

"Mobil 1 advanced synthetic motor oil provides outstanding high-temperature performance and is proven to protect at engine temperatures up to 500°F."

It's a Group III synthetic.

Don't sweat it, just run good oil.

Writting this from my phone so expect some issues.

I never said 85C is hot for an engine, I said this is most efficient temp and also said its not good to run e.g. 115+C when stressing the engine and ita better to have 85C when high stress is in place :}

P.S dont think if oil can handle, think if the engine parts stress more and are about to break if you're constantly with high temps

[Somchai]

@crackez you should believe what @jkv45 said since he is absolute right and your numbers seem in case of modern oils a little bit outdated.
By the way with the ideal oil temperature of 100 degrees in Celsius (212 degrees in F) at the piston rings and the cylinder head the temperature is 300 degrees in Celsius.

[crackez]

I can created a peltier heater for ur engines, since modern oils are capable and the only think that concern you is ...the oil

We can reach easily 200C+ in engine and more than double in head, I mean why not?

Ye that was sarcasm, all I was saying is that metals work better at 85C when on heavy load and are less likely to break down if you push ur motor too far, it would be FAR more dangarous if you push ur motor(redline all the time) with temps above 120+ compared to 85C

that's all I've been saying but two people hardly seem to realise and say "newer oils can handle" ..I'm talking about the well beeing of the engine(not if the oil can take it)

Can't say it more clear than that, I'd prefer 100 times my engine to run at 85C when I push her to 12.300 rpm(that's the max it goes with gear, at least mine), instead of having 120C+ when I'm above 12.000rpm

Have a nice day dudes

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by crackez

P.S dont think if oil can handle, think if the engine parts stress more and are about to break if you're constantly with high temps

Ever been to a race track? Plenty of sustained high RPMs and hot oil there.

As I've said - it's not an issue if the oil can handle the temps without breaking-down. Conventional oil has its limits. Synthetic oils can withstand consistent high temps in a high performance engine even in extreme conditions.

It's all about the oil - up to mechanical limits.

[crackez]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Ever been to a race track? Plenty of sustained high RPMs and hot oil there.

As I've said - it's not an issue if the oil can handle the temps without breaking-down. Conventional oil has its limits. Synthetic oils can withstand consistent high temps in a high performance engine even in extreme conditions.

It's all about the oil - up to mechanical limits.

Have you even had an engine break(ninja 250r) while you're 160km/h with more than 10.000rpm(below redline)?

I have and was when I had 9.500km on the counter, after a couple of hours of oil chance(official kawasaki shop), so please don't tell me you know better ..I've seen my life in front of my eyes as I did a bad mistake to only wear helmet at that time

One piston stuck, crank broke(what service department told me ..warranty cover all damages but that's not the point).. all I saw was white smoke in front of me(luckily it was an open road and a straight line) ..I was damn lucky and have experience with accidents and save myself by a fraction of a second

One part of head went missing(somewhere on the road and one part of the main engine-upper part), and water+oil mixed together... thus white smoke on my face and oils in the back tire.. I scared to sh*t ..and was shaking like an old dude with parkinson

So trust me when I say lower temps are better when pushing the motor, did some dig up(research) and saw that something between >80-100 is fine, so if I put a small oil cooler I'll be fine, I'll see what temps I get when I push the motor(now that's summer and we have a hot weather in Greece) and figure out if I actually need an oil radiator or not(and my accident was an isolated issue), I'd prefer having temps 85-95C when I'm near redline rather than having 110+ and say I have good oil because I was lucky to survive that 160+ km/h with shorts+a simple t-shirt is a good way to damage yourself in a really bad way or even die

Have a nice day! ..and even if you race in a track I can still break an engine faster than you

P.S. I always use fully synthetic oil in my ninja ...since day 1

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by http://www.motorstate.com/TheTemperaturesandPressuresofRacing.htm

Ideal operating oil temperatures are between 230° and 260° (110°C-127°C) where oil flows the most freely and provides the best lubrication. Petroleum-based engine oil breaks down very rapidly and loses lubricating properties as temperatures near 285° (141°C). Synthetic motor oil holds up better in higher temperatures and provides better engine endurance under extreme heat.

Originally Posted by http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/1310-engine-oil-temperature/

For a dual-purpose car, engine oil needs to be at least 220°F (104°C) to burn off all the deposits and accumulated water vapor. For every pound of fuel burned in an engine, the combustion process also generates a pound of water! If engine sump temperatures rarely exceed 212°F (100°C, water’s boiling point), the water will mix with sulfur (another combustion by-product) and create acids that can eventually damage bearings.

Both of these sources are no longer available, but quoted here.

Originally Posted by http://www.evanscooling.com/articles/aug97ct.htm

Chevrolet is now saying we should be running the oil temperature at 220 to 240 degrees (104°C-116°C). If you're not, you are giving away horsepower. We have learned to stay below 260 to 270 degrees (127°C-132°C) because the life of the oil starts to fall off. The people who run 180 degrees (82°C) need to know that it is not good for the bearings. The oil is too thick. The rings are plowing through it and the pump is pushing it, both of which rob horsepower.

Originally Posted by http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/1822/

For the best performance, water temperature should be in the range of 200-210 degrees F (93°C-99°C) ... The temperature range of the engine oil should be 220-230 degrees F (104°C-110°C).

Nobody here is saying that you should try to run your oil at 150°C or other crazy high numbers. They're saying, and everything I'm seeing is agreeing, that your desired temperature is below optimal. But like I always say, I'm not your mom and I'm not paying for your stuff, so do whatever you want with your own bike.

If your cooling system is keeping the engine temps in the right range, and your oil is still getting too hot, an oil cooler should help that. If your cooling system isn't keeping the engine in the right temperature range, then it seems silly to use an oil cooler to make up for that. If you don't know what your oil/coolant temps are, then there's no way to know if you need a cooler or if it's helping.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by crackez

Have you even had an engine break(ninja 250r) while you're 160km/h with more than 10.000rpm(below redline)?

I have and was when I had 9.500km on the counter, after a couple of hours of oil chance(official kawasaki shop), so please don't tell me you know better ..I've seen my life in front of my eyes as I did a bad mistake to only wear helmet at that time

One piston stuck, crank broke(what service department told me ..warranty cover all damages but that's not the point).. all I saw was white smoke in front of me(luckily it was an open road and a straight line) ..I was damn lucky and have experience with accidents and save myself by a fraction of a second

One part of head went missing(somewhere on the road and one part of the main engine-upper part), and water+oil mixed together... thus white smoke on my face and oils in the back tire.. I scared to sh*t ..and was shaking like an old dude with parkinson

So trust me when I say lower temps are better when pushing the motor, did some dig up(research) and saw that something between >80-100 is fine, so if I put a small oil cooler I'll be fine, I'll see what temps I get when I push the motor(now that's summer and we have a hot weather in Greece) and figure out if I actually need an oil radiator or not(and my accident was an isolated issue), I'd prefer having temps 85-95C when I'm near redline rather than having 110+ and say I have good oil because I was lucky to survive that 160+ km/h with shorts+a simple t-shirt is a good way to damage yourself in a really bad way or even die

Have a nice day! ..and even if you race in a track I can still break an engine faster than you

P.S. I always use fully synthetic oil in my ninja ...since day 1

Glad you survived your bad experience with a major engine meltdown, but I don't think you can just say it was because the temp was too high. The oil level could have been too low...the coolant level could have been too low...adjustments could have been made incorrectly...bad fuel could have caused detonation...etc...etc...etc...

Considering it was just after an oil change, I would look there for clues. Plenty of "official" shops make mistakes. Incorrectly installing an oil filter, or not filling to the proper level, and seizing an engine isn't that uncommon. I really wouldn't blame it on the oil or the temp. Sounds like human error (not yours) to me.

[crackez]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

Both of these sources are no longer available, but quoted here.





Nobody here is saying that you should try to run your oil at 150°C or other crazy high numbers. They're saying, and everything I'm seeing is agreeing, that your desired temperature is below optimal. But like I always say, I'm not your mom and I'm not paying for your stuff, so do whatever you want with your own bike.

If your cooling system is keeping the engine temps in the right range, and your oil is still getting too hot, an oil cooler should help that. If your cooling system isn't keeping the engine in the right temperature range, then it seems silly to use an oil cooler to make up for that. If you don't know what your oil/coolant temps are, then there's no way to know if you need a cooler or if it's helping.

About the temps as I was researching another dude was telling the exact same thing but for temps of less than 80C so we should take this with a grain of salt..

I live in Greece and mostly I ride in the summer, I'll checks what average temps I get and what temps I get during hard push, if all exceed 100C then I can safely say a small oil cooler putting 10C down will be beneficial ..that's what I was saying from start, so 90C are not bad and if I push it hard and get 110C without the oil cooler then it will be 100C with it (still great), I still have to measure how this goes (my way of thinking is that lower temps within the working temps should extent the life of the components--engine )

The fact higher the better for efficiency(without saying a limit) etc doesn't stuck up after my research, I just ask a question here because i expected a more "pro" opinion, saying more heat is better for the engine if the oil is good sound the same like "I'm a dolphin and I talk to aliens" to me.

Originally Posted by jkv45

Glad you survived your bad experience with a major engine meltdown, but I don't think you can just say it was because the temp was too high. The oil level could have been too low...the coolant level could have been too low...adjustments could have been made incorrectly...bad fuel could have caused detonation...etc...etc...etc...

Considering it was just after an oil change, I would look there for clues. Plenty of "official" shops make mistakes. Incorrectly installing an oil filter, or not filling to the proper level, and seizing an engine isn't that uncommon. I really wouldn't blame it on the oil or the temp. Sounds like human error (not yours) to me.

Of course many variables could be in place, it might be because I was a bit fatter at that time and she was ashamed about me ..no really now, it was a bad experience but the cap from below the engine(filter cover) was missing and I was very curious why. I even asked them if they tight it properly(they were upset a bit when I ask them that) ...it was gone, not cracked or anything, just gone(the bolt/filter cap and the filter itselt ..just an empty space :P)! ..he might not tight it good and from vibrations(it got loose) after a while this drained the oil ..resulting this - just my wild guess

[micoulisninja]

Mind if I barge in ? Well the truth is somewhere in the middle in a matter of speaking... @jkv45 is absolutely right and has more then many reasons to insist on his point of view... but the thing is that in Greece we have certain "irregularities" that distort the theory quite a bit...

What @crackez has experienced is not uncommon in our country... but that has nothing to do with oil...at least not only the oil ! By the way get in touch man !! send a pm or sth !!

One thing to keep in mind is that within a certain day we have a very humid morning with an average temp -say- 10 d. C and within a few hours it climbs up to 25 d. C or even more to a completely dry and hot aired day... At the same time we have some REALLY old vehicles smoking around and if you get stuck behind one in city traffic the engine goes chocking and spitting like as if on a death row...the fumes come out hot while the air is still cool and the 250 just hates that sudden inlet temp variation... not that it prefers the absolute hot fumes along with the 45+ d C of our hot summer but at least it doesn't go crazy, just prays for a stop in the shadow and underperforms...

And then we have the fuel issue which is something we name gas but is not...
It is a burnable mixture of low octane gas which gas stations mix with water, petrol and other additives in order to make a profit... the tanks they use are almost never being cleaned and have residues varying from sand particles to dissolved paper, plastics and... tiny stones !!
So they manage to destroy our fuel pumps on a regular basis, make uneven engine combustion chamber characteristics and extra wear of moving parts. Besides that we have the fact that many oil products are also being "hacked" and mixed with low quality oils and... there you have it...
BUT even if you do use a high quality genuine oil and happen to OWN a gas station so that you fill up straight from... the truck, you will still experience some pinging, knocking etc of the engine...
The way the weather goes within a day, most of the time we have normal temp of engine coolant and unjustifiably high oil temp...
In a greek 250 forum I have been a member for some time it is common for every 250 owner to experience similar issues no matter what spark plugs, oil(synthetic or not 10w-40 or 15w-50), fuel or engine coolant one uses....

To make a long story short we haven't still figured out what is the precise cause of this irregularity and the only conclusion we have come to is that possibly the engines put in Greek market's chassis are either "B-class" selections or the ignition's advance timing is a little too high for the quality of fuel available in Greece... either way we all prefer to try and keep our OIL temp as low as possible -when possible... by the time one notices the water temp gauge (which the European version has instead of a fuel gauge) being just a bit over the middle (85-90 d C) which is the "normal" factory operation water temp, the oil is already boiling at 140+ d C...

P.S. needless to mention that we ride with an "on-off" mode... i.e. we set off a traffic like revving up 1st gear over 12k rpm to shift to 2nd to the limiter just to come to a complete stop 200m away on the next traffic light... don't ask why, it is crazy over here...
so imagine that poor little engine going from idling to limiter and back to idling almost all day long... how much can that engine take ?

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by crackez

I just ask a question here because i expected a more "pro" opinion, saying more heat is better for the engine if the oil is good sound the same like "I'm a dolphin and I talk to aliens" to me.

That's a good one!

Really, asking a question on a forum will always get you contradicting answers - it's all just opinions. Everyone on the 'net is a "pro". It's up to you to decide who/what to believe. Even doing "research" will often net conflicting viewpoints.

I've researched oil for years, and have discarded plenty of information that I couldn't confirm. What I'm relating to you is what I have confirmed - but you have no obligation to believe it.

[crackez]

Originally Posted by micoulisninja

Mind if I barge in ? Well the truth is somewhere in the middle in a matter of speaking... @jkv45 is absolutely right and has more then many reasons to insist on his point of view... but the thing is that in Greece we have certain "irregularities" that distort the theory quite a bit...

What @crackez has experienced is not uncommon in our country... but that has nothing to do with oil...at least not only the oil ! By the way get in touch man !! send a pm or sth !!

One thing to keep in mind is that within a certain day we have a very humid morning with an average temp -say- 10 d. C and within a few hours it climbs up to 25 d. C or even more to a completely dry and hot aired day... At the same time we have some REALLY old vehicles smoking around and if you get stuck behind one in city traffic the engine goes chocking and spitting like as if on a death row...the fumes come out hot while the air is still cool and the 250 just hates that sudden inlet temp variation... not that it prefers the absolute hot fumes along with the 45+ d C of our hot summer but at least it doesn't go crazy, just prays for a stop in the shadow and underperforms...

And then we have the fuel issue which is something we name gas but is not...
It is a burnable mixture of low octane gas which gas stations mix with water, petrol and other additives in order to make a profit... the tanks they use are almost never being cleaned and have residues varying from sand particles to dissolved paper, plastics and... tiny stones !!
So they manage to destroy our fuel pumps on a regular basis, make uneven engine combustion chamber characteristics and extra wear of moving parts. Besides that we have the fact that many oil products are also being "hacked" and mixed with low quality oils and... there you have it...
BUT even if you do use a high quality genuine oil and happen to OWN a gas station so that you fill up straight from... the truck, you will still experience some pinging, knocking etc of the engine...
The way the weather goes within a day, most of the time we have normal temp of engine coolant and unjustifiably high oil temp...
In a greek 250 forum I have been a member for some time it is common for every 250 owner to experience similar issues no matter what spark plugs, oil(synthetic or not 10w-40 or 15w-50), fuel or engine coolant one uses....

To make a long story short we haven't still figured out what is the precise cause of this irregularity and the only conclusion we have come to is that possibly the engines put in Greek market's chassis are either "B-class" selections or the ignition's advance timing is a little too high for the quality of fuel available in Greece... either way we all prefer to try and keep our OIL temp as low as possible -when possible... by the time one notices the water temp gauge (which the European version has instead of a fuel gauge) being just a bit over the middle (85-90 d C) which is the "normal" factory operation water temp, the oil is already boiling at 140+ d C...

P.S. needless to mention that we ride with an "on-off" mode... i.e. we set off a traffic like revving up 1st gear over 12k rpm to shift to 2nd to the limiter just to come to a complete stop 200m away on the next traffic light... don't ask why, it is crazy over here...
so imagine that poor little engine going from idling to limiter and back to idling almost all day long... how much can that engine take ?

That brings me a memory, although in a small town I got stuck in the traffic(weird) and after a few minutes in the summer I saw my needle going sky-high(Europe 250r ninja's have a temp gauge instead of fuel one) ..after a straight line I push her a bit and the wind did miracles, needle went back down in a matter of seconds

P.S. I saw "2009 ninja 345cc" ..dude what did you do? ..is this reliable?

Originally Posted by jkv45

That's a good one!

Really, asking a question on a forum will always get you contradicting answers - it's all just opinions. Everyone on the 'net is a "pro". It's up to you to decide who/what to believe. Even doing "research" will often net conflicting viewpoints.

I've researched oil for years, and have discarded plenty of information that I couldn't confirm. What I'm relating to you is what I have confirmed - but you have no obligation to believe it.

When saying "pro" I quote it for a reason, surely there are more experienced dudes from me and even if you are a professional guy with a working shop and all you might see an amateur guy who's more experienced and talented from you! so considering this you might want to edit your post

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by crackez

That brings me a memory, although in a small town I got stuck in the traffic(weird) and after a few minutes in the summer I saw my needle going sky-high(Europe 250r ninja's have a temp gauge instead of fuel one) ..after a straight line I push her a bit and the wind did miracles, needle went back down in a matter of seconds

When I read that all about your Ninja I think it must be a very special version.
I live in the Land-of-Smiles where the temperature by far is much higher than it is in Greece and I don't have all that problems with my Ninja like you.
When I wait at the signals or stuck in the traffic the temperature is going to 105 degrees C with the fan coming on and this brings the temperature down to 100 degrees C again.
This is the setup in the ECU, so everything is fine and by the way, the ignition of my bike is advanced by 5 degrees even with the ignition of the Thai-Version (FI like EU) compared to the EU-Version is advanced already.

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by crackez

That brings me a memory, although in a small town I got stuck in the traffic(weird) and after a few minutes in the summer I saw my needle going sky-high(Europe 250r ninja's have a temp gauge instead of fuel one) ..after a straight line I push her a bit and the wind did miracles, needle went back down in a matter of seconds

P.S. I saw "2009 ninja 345cc" ..dude what did you do? ..is this reliable?

well at the extreme stage I have taken it, not YET... but I have been working on it and have come pretty close to making it work reliably....have encounterd some holdbacks but I am close to eliminating them...
check out my thread if you like https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=198145 and my blog posts to see the kind of work my original 250 engine had...
I wouldn't recommend that kind of madness for an everyday vehicle though...
By the way the 300's crank is not a direct swap by itself on the 250 engine...
For one you also need the shorter 300's conrods to keep the piston travel in place or they will hit against the head even if using thicker bottom and head gaskets..and you will need to check bearing clearances, possibly will need to switch those too, so cost goes sky-high for someone in Greece not having a workshop of his own and lack of knowledge to do by himself...
Second is that the 250's throttle bodies are way too small for 250cc, so for 300 you will get some performance down low but it kills all performance at the top end... so you also need the 300's TBs... and then the intake valves are too small and you need the 300's head.... so what you really should consider as an option is a whole 300 engine transplant along with the TBs... that is reliable...costworthy ? maybe not for some, only if you are keeping the bike long term and not intending to switch to SS600 or sth later on...

by the way I need to tell you that you should not judge guys here with the perspective we have as given in Greece...
our "pros" are far from ever becoming pros mostly because of attitude -apart from lack of knowledge-seeking...
in this forum most guys (not everyone of course) are people who really try to help out and have thought twice before posting sth...
So please try to be less suspicious- at least as far as their good intentions are concerned. I am not saying that you should take everything you read here as a fact but at least almost everyone tries to have tested ourselves or have some experience in person when one gives advice or post their opinions...

P.S. if you need any help about the bike, will be glad to help you out...
P.S.2 where do you live, thought you were staying in Athens too...

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by Somchai

When I read that all about your Ninja I think it must be a very special version.
I live in the Land-of-Smiles where the temperature by far is much higher than it is in Greece and I don't have all that problems with my Ninja like you.
When I wait at the signals or stuck in the traffic the temperature is going to 105 degrees C with the fan coming on and this brings the temperature down to 100 degrees C again.
This is the setup in the ECU, so everything is fine and by the way, the ignition of my bike is advanced by 5 degrees even with the ignition of the Thai-Version (FI like EU) compared to the EU-Version is advanced already.

Roland nothing special about his version...mine got worse when even stock and like I said, it is the extra low quality of gas available here that creates so many problems, breaks oil down and gives irregular engine operating characteristics... it is the rule here, not the exception unfortunatelly... for tuned bikes it is their testament...

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by micoulisninja

Roland nothing special about his version...mine got worse when even stock and like I said, it is the extra low quality of gas available here that creates so many problems, breaks oil down and gives irregular engine operating characteristics... it is the rule here, not the exception unfortunatelly... for tuned bikes it is their testament...

Hey Nick,
thank for the reminder about the gas again and I'm very happy to see you post again.
I really hope everything to you and your family is fine and if there are problems with your Ninja I hope it will be as easy as possible for you to solve them.
About the gas I understand that there are really big differences and this makes me to see your trouble.
Here one still can get real 95 benzine (US = 91), but there are differences from brand to brand.
After my experience I can say with the two best here I don't have any popping in decelaration any more, but when I use another brand - bingo, it's popping.
Good luck for you

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by Somchai

Hey Nick,
thank for the reminder about the gas again and I'm very happy to see you post again.
I really hope everything to you and your family is fine and if there are problems with your Ninja I hope it will be as easy as possible for you to solve them.
About the gas I understand that there are really big differences and this makes me to see your trouble.
Here one still can get real 95 benzine (US = 91), but there are differences from brand to brand.
After my experience I can say with the two best here I don't have any popping in decelaration any more, but when I use another brand - bingo, it's popping.
Good luck for you

popping is the least issue in our case... imagine your gas having 5% or even more diesel fuel in it and other byproduct stuff, water and mud in it... That is what is being sold here as pump gas, even for the "premium" 100oct. versions...the octanes are 100 alright but with so much other stuff, it makes things worse....
will update soon, made some progress, have to test though !

[Ghostt]

In my case, I also feel due to the small size of the cooler limits the amount it can cool the oil, so I'm not worried about over-cooling the oil.

[crackez]

Originally Posted by Somchai

When I read that all about your Ninja I think it must be a very special version.
I live in the Land-of-Smiles where the temperature by far is much higher than it is in Greece and I don't have all that problems with my Ninja like you.
When I wait at the signals or stuck in the traffic the temperature is going to 105 degrees C with the fan coming on and this brings the temperature down to 100 degrees C again.
This is the setup in the ECU, so everything is fine and by the way, the ignition of my bike is advanced by 5 degrees even with the ignition of the Thai-Version (FI like EU) compared to the EU-Version is advanced already.

Still why not running at 90C without triggering the fan? it's also a good way to extent fan's life but also engine's

Originally Posted by micoulisninja

well at the extreme stage I have taken it, not YET... but I have been working on it and have come pretty close to making it work reliably....have encounterd some holdbacks but I am close to eliminating them...
check out my thread if you like https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=198145 and my blog posts to see the kind of work my original 250 engine had...
I wouldn't recommend that kind of madness for an everyday vehicle though...
By the way the 300's crank is not a direct swap by itself on the 250 engine...
For one you also need the shorter 300's conrods to keep the piston travel in place or they will hit against the head even if using thicker bottom and head gaskets..and you will need to check bearing clearances, possibly will need to switch those too, so cost goes sky-high for someone in Greece not having a workshop of his own and lack of knowledge to do by himself...
Second is that the 250's throttle bodies are way too small for 250cc, so for 300 you will get some performance down low but it kills all performance at the top end... so you also need the 300's TBs... and then the intake valves are too small and you need the 300's head.... so what you really should consider as an option is a whole 300 engine transplant along with the TBs... that is reliable...costworthy ? maybe not for some, only if you are keeping the bike long term and not intending to switch to SS600 or sth later on...

by the way I need to tell you that you should not judge guys here with the perspective we have as given in Greece...
our "pros" are far from ever becoming pros mostly because of attitude -apart from lack of knowledge-seeking...
in this forum most guys (not everyone of course) are people who really try to help out and have thought twice before posting sth...
So please try to be less suspicious- at least as far as their good intentions are concerned. I am not saying that you should take everything you read here as a fact but at least almost everyone tries to have tested ourselves or have some experience in person when one gives advice or post their opinions...

P.S. if you need any help about the bike, will be glad to help you out...
P.S.2 where do you live, thought you were staying in Athens too...

The fact that most people live in Athens makes me feel ...well unique ahahahh, I'm in the other side of the map and I don't live in an island

P.S. Not planning in doing this, if I had the knowledge I would create a frame-like similar to the ninja but bigger from the inside and fit a proper-bigger engine, put big brakes, different rims, bigger tires etc etc (totally new bike) ..someone might ask why the f would you try to do that even if you had the knowledge and the tools ..all I say is Greek parents, I might well pass 21 many years ago ..you don't know what's like to have a Greek father/mother and you never will :P

..if I could affort(in Greece with taxes and everything) to take a v12 car with 1500hp they wouldn't worry but if two wheel with 80hp it's a killer machine :P

Originally Posted by Ghostt

In my case, I also feel due to the small size of the cooler limits the amount it can cool the oil, so I'm not worried about over-cooling the oil.

That's what I had in mind, also I saw this and I even have kept a link about it(30 euros or so for a small cooler like this is more than fair), seller says it's suitable for moped air cooled engine 50-150cc so our 2 cylinder 250cc monster won't get chilled by this)

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by crackez

When saying "pro" I quote it for a reason, surely there are more experienced dudes from me and even if you are a professional guy with a working shop and all you might see an amateur guy who's more experienced and talented from you! so considering this you might want to edit your post

I have no idea what you are talking about. I could add more, but I won't...

[crackez]

Originally Posted by jkv45

I have no idea what you are talking about. I could add more, but I won't...

It's not very important for all to get it so it's ok, we're simply talking anyway

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by crackez

Still why not running at 90C without triggering the fan? it's also a good way to extent fan's life but also engine's

You seem stuck on the idea that lower temperatures (80°C-90°C) are better than higher temps (100°C-110°C). Like jkv45 said, the internet is full of "pros" who know everything about every subject (plus they're rich, handsome, and funny too), so everything should be taken with a grain of salt...

However, I can't find a single thing online saying that the lower numbers are better. I've found a few random forum posts including those lower temps along with the higher numbers as acceptable, but nothing stating they're any better. I tried to cite trustworthy sources for the quotes above. Chevy probably knows a little bit about engines, considering they've been selling cars for over a century. Evans makes a waterless coolant, so it's probably safe to assume they've done some research regarding engine temps. HotRod has seen a few engines in their day. I trust them more than I trust "another dude". I am not personally an expert.

To bluntly answer your question, "Why not run at 90°C?": Simply because (based on the research we've seen) it's worse for the engine than running at 105°C.

You can choose to believe that or not. I don't expect to agree with your numbers unless there's something more to support it. The fact that the warranty covered it tends to indicate that something about it was defective, and what you posted here doesn't even indicate that oil temp had anything at all to do with the failure.

If you're really hitting 140°C with the engine/coolant at normal temps like micoulisninja said, then definitely get an oil cooler. Everyone agrees that's way too hot.

If your oil is too hot because the whole engine is running too hot, then fix/upgrade the cooling system. That will do a lot more to ensure that the engine's components are running at ideal temperatures than trying to wring a little heat out of the oil. I really dislike the single-loop cooling setup on these little Ninjas, though it tends to be more of a problem that prevents proper warmup, as opposed to preventing cooling when it's hot. But with a proper bypass loop installed, you can install a huge radiator to dump lots of heat without worrying about overcooling the engine.

But if your oil is at 105°C and you install a cooler to get it down to 95°C, you may actually be making things worse (depending on whose advice you follow).

[crackez]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

You seem

..........

worse (depending on whose advice you follow).

As said already I need to check the oil temp first(probably with a temp filler oil cap), then decide if it's worth or not.

Still saying high temps less than 130C is fine, I'd like to see someone doing a temps with two identical engines one working on 100C and the other on 125C for example for 5 years and see what engine is at better shape(just wondering what would be the results)

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

You seem stuck on the idea that lower temperatures (80°C-90°C) are better than higher temps (100°C-110°C). Like jkv45 said, the internet is full of "pros" who know everything about every subject (plus they're rich, handsome, and funny too), so everything should be taken with a grain of salt...


I.M.H.O. since I am not a pro, personal experience in the Greek hot environment has taught me that the temp you are mentioning (about 105 C) is the ideal engine operation range. I am not a pro either so I am not expecting anyone to take my word as a fact, but I totally agree with you on this one... the problem is that it is really hard to keep it steadily within that optimum range and overheating becomes inevitable especially during summer.


However, I can't find a single thing online saying that the lower numbers are better. I've found a few random forum posts including those lower temps along with the higher numbers as acceptable, but nothing stating they're any better. I tried to cite trustworthy sources for the quotes above. Chevy probably knows a little bit about engines, considering they've been selling cars for over a century. Evans makes a waterless coolant, so it's probably safe to assume they've done some research regarding engine temps. HotRod has seen a few engines in their day. I trust them more than I trust "another dude". I am not personally an expert.

One thing I would like not to argue, but point out is the significant difference of the whole engine structure of a car and a small capacity, high revving bike engine...
In a car there is a golf court of space to place huge radiators, large oil sumps and weight is most of the times not an issue while on a 250 which is a "cheap-ish" bike, apart from space and weight there is a cost-reducing approach which of course sacrifices a lot...
And if I am not mistaken most chevy engines rev up to 6k rpm or so which is less than half of the 250's redline... I think the amount of stress on moving parts is being multiplied by 2 or more for every extra thousand revs.
If one compares the amount of metal used on a car engine and a bike...think only of valve stems for example...250's are 4mm thick while a car's valve is at least twice as thick for less than half the revs... so if I recall correctly, heat dissipation is at least "smoother" in a car engine... Anyway my point here is that yes, I am conviced these guys know A LOT about engines but is what they state a rule for EVERY engine or just an everyday car's engine ?
And is not the owner's kind of use (or abuse) a determining factor that affects the engine liquids' temp ?


To bluntly answer your question, "Why not run at 90°C?": Simply because (based on the research we've seen) it's worse for the engine than running at 105°C.

Indeed I believe that to be precisely the ideal oil operating temp... the thing is like I said, it is paractically impossible to keep oil from boiling here once it's gone even a few past 110...only way to prevent that in summer is to... stop somewhere shady for half an hour....


You can choose to believe that or not. I don't expect to agree with your numbers unless there's something more to support it. The fact that the warranty covered it tends to indicate that something about it was defective, and what you posted here doesn't even indicate that oil temp had anything at all to do with the failure.

If you're really hitting 140°C with the engine/coolant at normal temps like micoulisninja said, then definitely get an oil cooler. Everyone agrees that's way too hot.

If your oil is too hot because the whole engine is running too hot, then fix/upgrade the cooling system. That will do a lot more to ensure that the engine's components are running at ideal temperatures than trying to wring a little heat out of the oil. I really dislike the single-loop cooling setup on these little Ninjas, though it tends to be more of a problem that prevents proper warmup, as opposed to preventing cooling when it's hot. But with a proper bypass loop installed, you can install a huge radiator to dump lots of heat without worrying about overcooling the engine.

Here is one (more) thing that has made me rub my eyes in surprise... It was my belief too that installing a huge radiator would solve that issue once and for good... well it didn't work out as expected... I used my ZX-12's radiator and ran a few tests without fairings... to cut to the chase, after some really extreme abuse, I managed to get water coolant reading of a maximum 90 C (but mostly it was somewhere around 70-80) while I still managed to get the oil boiling !!!! Truth is it got up to 140 C while I had read up to 160 C in similar conditions on my highly tuned and pushed previous 250 engine, so I switched to a 15w-50 viscosity (instead of 10w-40 I had been using) to get even better readings but less free revving from the engine... the thing is -and please correct me if mistaken- that it is neither normal nor good for the engine to have so much of a temp difference between the oil and the coolant...so I switched back to stock radiator kept the 15w-50 oil and placed a small oil cooler which -so far- seems to be effective in MY case...

But if your oil is at 105°C and you install a cooler to get it down to 95°C, you may actually be making things worse (depending on whose advice you follow).

I would really appreciate having your thoughts and ideas concerning my points and the issues I have encountered myself with my personal heavily modified engine.

[crackez]

Originally Posted by micoulisninja

I would really appreciate having your thoughts and ideas concerning my points and the issues I have encountered myself with my personal heavily modified engine.

I've found ur videos yesterday, still I would like to see it near deadline (if you make it nearly stock reliable )

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by crackez

I've found ur videos yesterday, still I would like to see it near deadline (if you make it nearly stock reliable )

the videos on youtube are from my previous 250 engine which was indeed heavily modified and blew up because of a faulty shift drum !! it was "only" 250cc, most work was on the head and showed 39+ rwhp on a superflow dyno. I had it operating troublefree for almost 2 years at that stage for over 18000km (11k miles) both at the track and on the road, but I had to change the oil frequently since it got it boiling in the summer...
anyway that engine is dead, the new project is based on a 300cc engine with even more extensive mods and extra cc... still working on it, had some issues with the overbore kit pistons but managed to have it checked before it got damaged, have to work on it though to complete it and have it rolling again... I am at a testing stage with some odd alternatives and will update as soon as I have some progress...this one is aiming at beyond 45rwhp but with a much "fuller" torque curve...
it will definetely be not reliable as stock but its use will be different this time since I am using a self-customized mini motard yamaha TW200 for in-town transportation...

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by micoulisninja

Here is one (more) thing that has made me rub my eyes in surprise... It was my belief too that installing a huge radiator would solve that issue once and for good... well it didn't work out as expected... I used my ZX-12's radiator and ran a few tests without fairings... to cut to the chase, after some really extreme abuse, I managed to get water coolant reading of a maximum 90 C (but mostly it was somewhere around 70-80) while I still managed to get the oil boiling !!!! Truth is it got up to 140 C while I had read up to 160 C in similar conditions on my highly tuned and pushed previous 250 engine, so I switched to a 15w-50 viscosity (instead of 10w-40 I had been using) to get even better readings but less free revving from the engine... the thing is -and please correct me if mistaken- that it is neither normal nor good for the engine to have so much of a temp difference between the oil and the coolant...so I switched back to stock radiator kept the 15w-50 oil and placed a small oil cooler which -so far- seems to be effective in MY case...

I mentioned the cooling loop bypass because just adding a bigger radiator won't necessarily fix everything, and could possibly make things worse.

The stock setup is a single loop. The water pump pushes coolant through the engine, out through the thermostat, to the filler neck, into the radiator, then back to the water pump. The problem is that if the coolant is colder than the thermostat temp (due to not warming up yet, excessive cooling from a huge radiator, etc.), the thermostat closes and basically stops the flow of coolant. The only flow in the system is through the little bypass hole in the thermostat. When the thermostat closes and the flow stops, that means the hot coolant is stuck in the engine and the cold coolant is stuck in the thermostat housing, where the temperature sensor is (the coolant in the radiator is also sitting there, getting "super-cooled" down closer to ambient temps). Eventually enough heat will make it to the thermostat to open it up, but the thermostat closing due to be being cool basically makes it very hard for the hot coolant to get to the thermostat to cause it to open. Depending on how cold the coolant in the radiator is and how quickly it passes through the engine, you might even get enough cold water through the engine and back to the thermostat to cause it to close again. You end up with surges of hot and cold in the engine.

My 500's thermostat is stamped 82°C/180°F. Assuming the 250 uses the same temp, then if your temp gauge is showing 80°C, the thermostat isn't going to be fully open, causing it to restrict flow. That in turn will keep the heat in the engine and away from the thermostat. It's a bit of a chicken & egg situation, with the cold thermostat keeping the hot coolant away, which keeps the thermostat cold.

With a Thermo-Bob installed, the coolant loop is changed. The water pump sends coolant through the engine and to the thermostat as before. If it's cold and the thermostat is closed, the coolant goes through the additional bypass hose and back to the water pump. Even if it's 0°, the coolant is still flowing in a loop through the engine, resulting in more even coolant temps, and allowing the thermostat and temp sensor to see the same coolant temps as in the engine. If the coolant is hot enough that the thermostat is open, then the coolant goes through the radiator and back to the water pump, cooling it as the stock system does.

If the coolant manages to get cooled down again (via a huge radiator, cold breeze, etc.) and the thermostat closes, the coolant goes back to the bypass loop. Again, it keeps circulating coolant through the engine and thermostat housing (allowing the engine, thermostat, and temp sensor to all see the same temp) until it's hot enough to open the thermostat again. The coolant is always flowing in a loop, and going through the radiator when it's hot enough.

Like I said before, this is more of a warmup problem. Once it's up to the proper temperature and the thermostat opens, there's no difference in the stock or Thermo-Bob setups. However, it would ensure that it does get the hot coolant to the thermostat quickly at warmup. It would also allow you to use a huge radiator for when it gets really hot, without causing problems due to overcooling when it isn't quite as hot.

I'm no engine expert, but this stuff is pretty basic physics. The Thermo-Bob site has lots of data showing huge temperature variations in different sections and at different times. The KLR's cooling system is slightly different, but the overall operation is quite similar to our little Ninjas. We can debate what the perfect temperature for a particular engine is, but I'm pretty sure we all agree that we'd rather have the entire engine stay at that one temperature as much as possible, rather than having massive swings back and forth and huge differences between the top and bottom of the cylinder.

[choneofakind]

I mean the oil cooler could be a nice addition to safeguard from torching your oil.

If you then made a thermostat controlled loop with a bypas for normal use. Just buy a thermobob for your oil system!

But really.

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

I mentioned the cooling loop bypass because just adding a bigger radiator won't necessarily fix everything, and could possibly make things worse.

We can debate what the perfect temperature for a particular engine is, but I'm pretty sure we all agree that we'd rather have the entire engine stay at that one temperature as much as possible, rather than having massive swings back and forth and huge differences between the top and bottom of the cylinder.

really helpful info there !! thank you !!

keeping the whole engine in the same temp range is definitely a must !!

too bad nobody is using this thermo-bob thing over here....

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by micoulisninja

really helpful info there !! thank you !!

keeping the whole engine in the same temp range is definitely a must !!

too bad nobody is using this thermo-bob thing over here....

I bet they can be shipped to Greece for a price. The new model will even house the stock temp sensor as long as you ground the housing. This means you can streamline your install and get rid of the stock housing. That's what I did. My temp gauge even works.

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I bet they can be shipped to Greece for a price. The new model will even house the stock temp sensor as long as you ground the housing. This means you can streamline your install and get rid of the stock housing. That's what I did. My temp gauge even works.

sounds nice !! but how soon will that new model be available ?

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by micoulisninja

sounds nice !! but how soon will that new model be available ?

Hi Nick,

it's available already http://shop.watt-man.com/Thermo-Bob-...-YEARS-TBN.htm

But I'm not sure if you really need it, since Greece is a 'hot area' nearly like Thailand.
When I start my Ninja it takes only 2 - 3 minutes for her to warm up to 60 degree's Celsius, what's at least enough to run without startup-enrichment and in the environment here the engine is always running hot or enough warm.

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by Somchai

Hi Nick,

it's available already http://shop.watt-man.com/Thermo-Bob-...-YEARS-TBN.htm

But I'm not sure if you really need it, since Greece is a 'hot area' nearly like Thailand.
When I start my Ninja it takes only 2 - 3 minutes for her to warm up to 60 degree's Celsius, what's at least enough to run without startup-enrichment and in the environment here the engine is always running hot or enough warm.

my thoughts exactly Roland !! thank you for your feedback !!
I get a fully warmed-up engine within a couple of minutes....
I was looking into it just because it might be sth that would keep the engine temp more stable...

[choneofakind]

It's not just about a quick warm up, it's about not shocking the engine with cold coolant (the bypass line is always active and mixes with the cold return line after the radiator) and keeping the top of the head the same temp as the bottom of the head.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

It's not just about a quick warm up, it's about not shocking the engine with cold coolant (the bypass line is always active and mixes with the cold return line after the radiator) and keeping the top of the head the same temp as the bottom of the head.

The bypass is smaller and more restrictive than the main coolant loop, so it doesn't do much when the thermostat opens. Any coolant going through the bypass (and not getting cooled) just means that much less flow through the radiator (meaning a longer dwell time and getting cooled more), so it pretty much evens out in the end. In his testing on a 115°F (46°C) day, the difference between leaving the bypass open (standard Thermo-Bob configuration) and blocking it off completely (like a stock configuration with thermostat open) was only 2-3°F.

The shock is mostly due to the on/off flow of the stock loop when the thermostat opens/closes. If the coolant is overall hot enough to keep the thermostat open, then even the stock system gives you a pretty constant high-flow loop without major temp changes. Getting to that steady-state point may involve more swings back and forth without a bypass loop, but after hitting that temp they're pretty much identical.

The hotter your climate and the quicker you can get the engine up to temp, the less beneficial a Thermo-Bob is. Once the thermostat is open, the Thermo-Bob is essentially not doing anything.

That being said, unless it's always really freaking hot where you are (I picture Roland living in a sweltering jungle like I see in movies), there are probably times when a Thermo-Bob can help quite a bit. In his testing on a ~63°F (17°C) day, the KLR's oil was still only ~170°F (77°C) after 30 minutes of riding. For comparison, even with the problems of the stock cooling system on a very cold day, it only took 15 minutes for the coolant temp to stabilize at its steady-state number. Even after your coolant is up to temp, your oil may still be cooler than you want. The colder it is, the more beneficial the Thermo-Bob is, but you don't have to be riding in freezing temps for it to make a big difference. His own info says it will benefit you anytime the ambient temp is below 80°F (27°C).

Additionally, the choice of thermostat temp also has to take into account the fact that hot engine coolant isn't able to get to the thermostat housing very easily. Because of this, they seem to have chosen a relatively low temp thermostat, so that it will open before the engine gets too hot. However, you're then stuck with that lower temp after the thermostat does open. With a bypass loop being able to flow all the time, you can choose a thermostat temp closer to your desired engine temp, since the engine and thermostat housing should always be basically the same temp.


My personal opinion of the cooling system is like the single turn signal indicator: the stock setup might work ok in some settings, but is at least partially a cheap-out compared to the proper design. Correcting the weakness may not be necessary (i.e. if you're keeping the stock turn signals or if you're running the bike in a very hot climate), but adding it won't hurt anything even if you don't really need it, and then it will work right if something changes in the future (i.e. LED signals or a bigger radiator/cooler climate).

[Somchai]

Thanks @InvisiBill for your detailed statement.

@choneofakind, the temperature here is constant (the year over, besides some colder nights in winter-time down to 50 degree's F) above 80 degree's F and up to now I haven't seen my oil temperature below this number when I cold-start my bike.

[Mohawk]

Seems to be some confusion here regarding temps. So for a little clarity, the most efficient combustion temperature as measured in the coolant around the block is 80C (176F), that means WATER temp for MOST power. That is why regardless of application you will find most thermostats set to open between 78-85C.

Now a coolant temp of 80C is the same as an oil temp of 100C (212F). The reason oil runs at this temperature is 1. To gas off any absorbed water, 2. The engine components are designed to run with perfect clearance at that temperature. If you run the oil hotter then you reduce clearance in shell bearings, which most bikes have which will increase the wear rate on those bearings but not by much unless you run really hot. The flip side is if you run the oil too cold the perfect clearance will either take much longer to achieve or never be reached, this will also increase the COLD wear rate, which is much worse than being slightly warm !

So be careful when bandying temps around, coolant & oil temps are NOT the same.
As an aside, my BMW 3 series no longer has a coolant temp gauge, it has an oil temp gauge that runs rock solid at 100C once up to temperature. This is measured at the oil pump.
Those oil filler temp gauges are useless, you can't see them when riding, they are measuring the temp of the crankcase. They are only good if you use them as a comparison before or after modifying your cooling be it oil or water, the temps will change. But you are better getting a simple digital temp gauge & cable tying the sensor head to a hot point, like where the oil line leaves the crankcase or where it enters the head, just cover with a bit of pipe insulation & you will get good comparative data, regardless of its specific accuracy.

Remember YMMV