Group Buy: EFI (Fuel Injection) Conversion Kit

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by el250

Carb heating:
None had it in North America, only in UK/Europe, Australia, or Japan spec -F but mostly -H models, as seen in instructions, and any of those as grey market bikes imported elsewhere.

Is the rest of Ecotrons based in Hong Kong or elsewhere that accounts for the high shipping by DHL?

His contact info lists Michigan.

He could ship FedEx Ground a lot cheaper. Or USPS Flat rate. The USPS large flat rate box is about $15 and is 12"x12"x5.5". Insurance is extra.

[rwheelz]

How good is this self-learning function? Does it self-learn at WOT and what A/F is it shooting for at WOT? From reading the several threads related to this item, it sounds to me as though the WOT is pre-tuned, but can be adjusted.

What I am wondering is, how important is it that I get the bike to a professional tuner with a dyno to dial in this FI setup properly, so I can ride the bike hard without breaking it? Full exhaust/pod filter is the issue for me. I don't want to see 14:1 at WOT at redline while the ECU is learning.

This is very interesting though.We live at 3800 ft and can ride to 11000 ft in under 2 hours. 6000-11,000 comes within 20 minutes, so I think the FI may be worth it for that reason alone.

[el250]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

His contact info lists Michigan.

He could ship FedEx Ground a lot cheaper. Or USPS Flat rate. The USPS large flat rate box is about $15 and is 12"x12"x5.5". Insurance is extra.

He might be in MI, but I find Xinhua District, Shijiazhuang China. It is no problem and looks like a good kit, just trying to make sense of things.

I might be interested in the kit but without the throttle body/injectors.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by el250

He might be in MI, but I find Xinhua District, Shijiazhuang China. It is no problem and looks like a good kit, just trying to make sense of things.

I might be interested in the kit but without the throttle body/injectors.

Ecotrons is based in MI. Our core development is in MI. ECU, software, and electronics are developped here. which are our core products.

But those low cost and bulky parts are sourced / or manufactured in China. We have a manufacture facility in China and shipping agent in Hongkong.
As much as we want to do all manufacturing here, the cost is inhibitive. We are not labelling ourselves as "Made in USA", but the high tech and high value staff remains here. I believe a lot companies claim "Made in USA" are actually doing the same as us.

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by rwheelz

How good is this self-learning function? Does it self-learn at WOT and what A/F is it shooting for at WOT? From reading the several threads related to this item, it sounds to me as though the WOT is pre-tuned, but can be adjusted.
Self-learning only learns small errors, for big changes, like a performance exhasut may require some manual tuning. Pot filter should be ok and not require re-tuning. Give it a try.
WOT learning is enabled by default. But we will include a 2nd calibration to load (via laptop) to run rich at WOT (after some learning with WOT). Plus you can always flip the "perfomance-switch" to switch to RICH mode when you run WOT.

What I am wondering is, how important is it that I get the bike to a professional tuner with a dyno to dial in this FI setup properly, so I can ride the bike hard without breaking it? Full exhaust/pod filter is the issue for me. I don't want to see 14:1 at WOT at redline while the ECU is learning.
Professional tuning on a dyno is something nice to have. But the factory tuning should be good enough that you can not break it. One thing is that whoever wants to do advanced tuning with our system has to learn it first, even a professional tuner. It is easy to learn, but you may have to pay them.
This is very interesting though.We live at 3800 ft and can ride to 11000 ft in under 2 hours. 6000-11,000 comes within 20 minutes, so I think the FI may be worth it for that reason alone.
Our system comes with altitude compensations, it will self-adjust the fuel for that. It may require some fine tuning for this significant change of altitude. But definitely better than carbs.

[n4mwd]

What is the known reliability of the parts in the kit?

ECU?

Injectors?

Fuel pump?

O2 and other Sensors?

Should any of these parts fail in the future, are they available off the shelf? The ECU is custom. Is it serviceable?

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

What is the known reliability of the parts in the kit?

ECU?

Injectors?

Fuel pump?

O2 and other Sensors?

Should any of these parts fail in the future, are they available off the shelf? The ECU is custom. Is it serviceable?

All parts are warrantied for 1 year. (after 1 year? we will still provide service.)
And yes they are all available off-the-shelf or replacements are available. We are in this market for long term. ECU is able to do self-diagnosis. Failed ECU will be replaced as warranty parts too.
It takes a long time to develop an EFI system, esp. the ECU and software. We are not going anywhere. We are growing, and more EFI kits are coming.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

All parts are warrantied for 1 year. (after 1 year? we will still provide service.)
And yes they are all available off-the-shelf or replacements are available. We are in this market for long term. ECU is able to do self-diagnosis. Failed ECU will be replaced as warranty parts too.
It takes a long time to develop an EFI system, esp. the ECU and software. We are not going anywhere. We are growing, and more EFI kits are coming.

I guess I didn't ask that right. Basically I'm asking two things.

1. Are some of these these parts off other motorcycles so that if we need replacements on the road, we can get them from a local shop? Fuel pump, regulator, injectors, sensors, etc.? If I'm going cross country and something breaks, I'll need apart right then and wont have time for a warranty claim.

2. Can I expect the ECU to handle static discharges, wet weather conditions, high temps and basically last the life of the bike even if the bike is mistreated? That is, is it a tough little bugger or do I have to handle it with cotton gloves?

EDIT:
Sorry, but I had to add another one....
3. Are the components ethanol proof and will they operate without damage with E10 - E85 flex fuel?

[flynjay]

@ecotrons

When should we be expecting invoices?

A little background as to why I am in a hurry. I currently have a very poorly (i.e barely) running bike due to one of the carb diaphragms being buggerd up by the previous owner.

I see this as a very viable alternative to fixing that issue.

And there is no "OFF" season in Texas. We are currently in the "Not Hot" season though.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by flynjay

@ecotrons

When should we be expecting invoices?

A little background as to why I am in a hurry. I currently have a very poorly (i.e barely) running bike due to one of the carb diaphragms being buggerd up by the previous owner.

I see this as a very viable alternative to fixing that issue.

And there is no "OFF" season in Texas. We are currently in the "Not Hot" season though.

I'll let @Jiggles know you are in a hurry. From what I know, he has all the email addresses for the group buy. Maybe we can start giving the emails to @ecotrons and get started so it wont be so hecktic on the day of the 24th for them.

At this point I think all the yes's are set in stone anyway so it looks fine. Any maybe's can still join in up till the 24th.

[Jiggles]

works for me

[EMSRacer07]

yea i am in a bit of a hurry too same as the other guy. carbs are a PITA. let them knw we are ready to roll

[n4mwd]

I'm not in a hurry, but I'll go early to help you guys make the >5 quota early. I think he said he would only start shipping once he had 5 paid orders.

[rusninja]

Id want efi If i had a bike and the money. :[ So if by the time i get one they still dont have efi i hope there will be another group buy. X]

[rwheelz]

Is there a reason you use slightly smaller sized throttles compared with stock? I am curious from reading the other thread. Anyone know what the UK-spec ninjette uses for throttles, or how this compares to the way the FI versions are set up from the factory? Obviously including a fully tunable EMS is quite the added bonus. I am seriously considering this. I don't know if it is just cheaper with bikes or what, but to get this kind of system for a modified import car would cost a hell of a lot more!

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by rwheelz

Is there a reason you use slightly smaller sized throttles compared with stock? I am curious from reading the other thread. Anyone know what the UK-spec ninjette uses for throttles, or how this compares to the way the FI versions are set up from the factory? Obviously including a fully tunable EMS is quite the added bonus. I am seriously considering this. I don't know if it is just cheaper with bikes or what, but to get this kind of system for a modified import car would cost a hell of a lot more!

Welp, you've got 3 days to decide! I also imagine that because there are only 2 cylinders the system is quite a bit simpler than it would need to be for a car

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by rwheelz

Is there a reason you use slightly smaller sized throttles compared with stock? I am curious from reading the other thread. Anyone know what the UK-spec ninjette uses for throttles, or how this compares to the way the FI versions are set up from the factory? Obviously including a fully tunable EMS is quite the added bonus. I am seriously considering this. I don't know if it is just cheaper with bikes or what, but to get this kind of system for a modified import car would cost a hell of a lot more!

The stock carbs are 30mm sizes. But OEM FI version of Ninja 250r has 2x28mm throttle bodies. We use the same throttel body size as OEM TBs. 28mm is big enough for a 125cc one cylinder. FI can gain some more power by better atomizations of fuel. The point is: it is not "the bigger, the better" when it comes to the size of throttle.

TRUE, this kit is much cheaper than an after-market car FI system. For one reason, we keep the cost low by using a lot of off-the-shelf motorbike parts, and more importantly, we price it low to attract more buyers. With $600, you barely can buy a decent car ECU. Small engine ECUs are somewhat simpler than car's. And less and smaller parts are also one of the reasons. But the low cost of our development and manufacture is the key. Guys, believe or not, this is a hell of good deal.

[justinswidebody]

Im good to buy right now also

[n4mwd]

Matt,

You missed my edit asking about ethanol tolerance and the potential use of E10-E85 fuels. As I understand it, this is a function of the ECU.

[flynjay]

So the e-mail list has been sent to @ecotrons?

To reiterate the question, when can we expect invoices to be sent out?

During the holidays I am not always around the computer and usually try to unplug to give the family more attention during the downtime from work.

Since Matt said he will start sending out parts when 5 invoices are paid, it makes sense to get the 9 names we have now to him and add to the list if somebody comes on board later. If one of the 9 balks and doesnt pay for some reason, then there is enough room for the 5 to get filled.

Matt said he wanted to have a little $$$ to pay some holiday bills. Is it bad that I'm eager to give it to him?

I'm sure that once the kits start to get installed and used, another group buy will be in the works sometime next year.

[EMSRacer07]

During the holidays I am not always around the computer and usually try to unplug to give the family more attention during the downtime from work.

yeah thats about how its going to be for me. Im ready to pay today.

[rwheelz]

You guys really seem to have this figured out. I am about to bite.

Will it text my Iphone if my wife exceeds 14k rpm?

[ecotrons]

Originally Posted by EMSRacer07

yeah thats about how its going to be for me. Im ready to pay today.

Guys, I am travelling now. Not in town. The earliest day I can ship is Dec. 28th. I can not ship the kit next day if you pay me now.
I am sending invoices anyway. You can hold your money until I am in town. Or you can pay me now.
I have the list already! thanks to Jiggles. The deal is not changing.

thx, Matt

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by ecotrons

Guys, I am travelling now. Not in town. The earliest day I can ship is Dec. 28th. I can not ship the kit next day if you pay me now.
I am sending invoices anyway. You can hold your money until I am in town. Or you can pay me now.
I have the list already! thanks to Jiggles. The deal is not changing.

thx, Matt

That's great!

I look forward to receiving the kit.

Have a good holiday!

[rwheelz]

I am definitely in, sign me up. Email is my username at hotmail, no hurry at all for me so take care of others first, ready to pay whenever.

[Jiggles]

@justinswidebody do you have a pregen or a newgen?

[Scattcatt]

I might be in this as well. I'm just very afraid about the putting holes in my Yoshi headers idea... Is it an easy thing for someone at a welding shop to do? Or are the chances off them screwing something up fairly high? If it's not a big deal then count me in, otherwise I'm going to spend the money on some Sidi Vortice boots

[justinswidebody]

Paid :-)

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

I might be in this as well. I'm just very afraid about the putting holes in my Yoshi headers idea... Is it an easy thing for someone at a welding shop to do? Or are the chances off them screwing something up fairly high? If it's not a big deal then count me in, otherwise I'm going to spend the money on some Sidi Vortice boots

If the headers are in good shape (i.e. - not rusted) then any decent welder should be able to handle it. Most likely they will need to be re-chromed because the heat from welding will trash the chrome.

Here is my plan for welding the bungs to the headers....

1. With the headers and fairings still on the bike, use a sharpie to put a dot at the location where the bung is to go.

2. Drill a hole at that location on each header. It may be possible to use the bung as a drill guide so that the bit doesn't slide all over the pipe(?). I missed them saying what the drill diameter is supposed to be.

3. Use superglue to temporarily attach the bungs to the headers at the correct location. This way there is no guesswork as to where and at what angle they go when you get them off for welding.

4. Remove the headers then clamp and weld the bungs in place.

Not sure if that will work, but it sounds like a good plan to me. Welding directly on the bike so close to an aluminum engine is a bad idea. Welding off the bike and you have to worry about warpage of the header pipes. So they might need to be "persuaded" to go back in place.

[flynjay]

Paid :-)

As for the hole to drill for the bung. You want it to be big enough that the O2 sensor passes through without hitting, but not so big that the hole is visible when the bung is placed over the hole.

I plan on placing the bung where i want on the pipe and marking the entire circumference with a sharpie, as well as a locating mark. Mark the center of the threaded hole

Best practice for drilling the hole is to use a center punch to put a divit where you want the drill point. That way the drill won't wonder when trying to get started.

After the bungs are welded on, it is a good idea to run a tap through the threads all the way into the pipe. That way you know there will be no hangups.

[EMSRacer07]

Paid and yes im pregen. if thats what the little stars were for.

[Scattcatt]

Ahh! It's so nerve racking still lol... Okay.. Count me in. Ecotrons going to visit the forum again to see me on the list?

Repost this list and add your name to it if you are in. Only add your name if you are 100% positive you want to buy this and have the money for it. Someone dropping out of the Group Buy at a later time will negatively affect everyone else associated with it, think carefully before you say Yes. If you are unsure about whether you want this system add yourself to the maybe list.

Sign Me Up!!!
1. @Jiggles
2. @setasai
3. @Daves2JZ
4. @flynjay
5. @EMSRacer07
6. @lgk
7. @justinswidebody
8. @n4mwd
9. @Ninja_Moose
10.
11.@Scattcatt
Hmm Maybe....
1. @Jiggles (I might buy a second one for my other Ninja)
2. @sombo (will it work with the pre-gens?) "Yes it will."
3.
4.
5. @etiainen (pending upon functional bike)
6. @Felipe_the_Ant (Scrounging up some bank)
7.
8.
9. @Fly'in Ninja
10.
________________________

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

Ahh! It's so nerve racking still lol... Okay.. Count me in. Ecotrons going to visit the forum again to see me on the list?

PM @Jiggles your e-mail, contact info and bike year. He will pass it on to Ecotrons.

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by flynjay

PM @Jiggles your e-mail, contact info and bike year. He will pass it on to Ecotrons.

Done! thanks! I just need to get the kit and get to work, it'll ease my anxiety about the headers lol. How difficult is re-chroming?

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

Done! thanks! I just need to get the kit and get to work, it'll ease my anxiety about the headers lol. How difficult is re-chroming?

I don't plan on having my header "re-chromed". I plan on taping off welded section and painting with high-temp paint like @greg737 did here.

[Scattcatt]

Ah, much easier, I'll just do that then. Thanks! Anxiety is slightly easing up already lol

[greg737]

Yes, the "masking and painting" of the O2 bung and weld area using high-temp paint has worked out well for my project. Over a year of use and it still looks like the day I painted it, so I'm thinking it was a good solution.

[flynjay]

Originally Posted by greg737

Yes, the "masking and painting" of the O2 bung and weld area using high-temp paint has worked out well for my project. Over a year of use and it still looks like the day I painted it, so I'm thinking it was a good solution.

I assume you prepped the area with 200 grit sandpaper and cleaned with alcohol before painting?

[greg737]

I used the blue-colored prep cloth that comes in pipe-soldering kits instead of sandpaper and, yes, I thoroughly cleaned the area afterwards with alcohol.

I know you guys have been tossing around the idea of where to go to have the welding of the O2 sensor bungs done, so here's my experience.

When I got my O2 sensor welded to my Area P mid-pipe I took it to the Automotive Hobby Shop guys at Fairchild AFB here in Spokane. They're friends of mine. They did a great job of making sure the placement/angle/alignment of the bung was perfect which was very important for my installation because, as you can see from the picture that @flynjay linked to in his next to last post in this thread, it had to be precisely placed to fit in the space between the engine oil pan and the Unitrak linkage. And I mean really precise because there was only a few millimeters of play in the installation that would allow me to get a wrench on the O2 sensor and turn it to install and remove the sensor. So that part turned out great.

But, as you can also see from the picture, the guy who did the welding wasn't that neat and tidy. It looks like a bird took a crap on my O2 bung. Oh well, I'm grateful for the careful placement and I can ignore the lumpy welding.

But here's where I could possibly have done better:
As I was taking the mid-pipe home that day I stopped off to pick up some stuff at a place where I bought a lot of my fuel system tubing and connectors. It's called "House of Hose" and they deal in all sorts of hose, tubing and connections needed by Spokane's auto mechanics, diesel mechanics, hydraulic mechanics, etc.

I happened to show them the mid-pipe and they all laughed at the weld. Then they went in back and got the guy who's job it is to weld up custom connections all day long. He showed me a few pieces of his work and it was beautiful (you know that type of weld that looks like a continuous row of perfect little fish scales?). He told me he could have easily done that on my mid-pipe, and he could have easily gotten the alignment perfect also.

So, I'm suggesting that there's probably an equivalent to "House of Hose" in any medium to large city in the U.S. And there's almost certainly a guy there who welds stuff all day long. He's the "welding artist" you're looking for, not some ham-fisted auto shop guy or muffler shop guy.

[flynjay]

Great story. A friend of mine is into drifting and knows a shop that does custom turbo installs. If you have ever seen the pipe work required for that you will know that they are qualified. If that doesn't work out (as in he's too busy), I will start asking around at the local tuning shops.

Installing O2 sensors on exhausts is not a motorcycle specific task. Lots of people upgrade to FI on older motors and need the work done. Any shop the makes custom exhaust headers should be able to do it.

Somebody, somewhere knows a good welder. Always ask to see a sample of their work, like greg737 said, it should look like a perfect set of fish scales.