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Old May 10th, 2018, 11:19 AM   #1
EffaMoulton
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Do you think it would be ok to run this oil

I just bought gn4 10w-30 oil to realize that the bike calls for 10w-40, do you think it would be ok to run it?
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Old May 10th, 2018, 11:39 AM   #2
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That is commonly used in ATV applications around my parts. Should be fine but to be sure... look on the container for a JASO MA rating.

If not... don't assume its wet clutch safe.

Otherwise, enjoy!
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Old May 10th, 2018, 11:41 AM   #3
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Since 10W-40 is the lightest one recommended, I think I'd see if I could exchange it.
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Old May 10th, 2018, 02:59 PM   #4
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Honda oil? In a Kawasaki? It will blow-up for sure!

Really, Hondaline GN4 isn't that great. I usually recommend that the CBR250R owners (Honda recommends 30-grade) use Shell Rotella T5 synthetic blend instead.

For the Ninja that recommends 40-grade, a good choice is Rotella T6 5W-40. It's a synthetic (kinda) and is plenty good for year-round use in the Ninja.

It's pretty much the universal standard for a decent inexpensive oil that's safe to use in a cycle engine. Regular auto oils aren't anymore.
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Old May 10th, 2018, 03:12 PM   #5
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I definitely would not. Might take a while, but eventually it can blow your engine. 30 weight oil is too thin, that’s why the book calls for 40 or 50 weight. The “W” number isn’t important unless you’re riding in the wintertime.

Bottom line is, the risk isn’t worth it. Save the -30 weight stuff for your car next time it needs an oil change and get some -40 or -50 for the bike.
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Old May 10th, 2018, 04:08 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by 1994Ninja250F View Post
The “W” number isn’t important unless you’re riding in the wintertime.
This is wrong. W for wrong.

The W might stand for winter, but it's really the viscosity grade of the base oil. Viscosity modifiers help the oil to "thicken" as it warms and behave with a similar viscosity to the second, higher number. So a 10W-30 is an oil with a viscosity that falls into the SAE 10 grade; however, viscosity modifiers have been added to this oil so that when it is at operating temperature, its viscosity falls within the SAE 30 grade.

"Cold" is a relative term. Remember your engine easily sees 200F temps in the hotter places, IE the piston ring and cylinder contact area. New engines that run more boost, higher exhaust temps, and hotter thermostats are seeing higher internal temps than traditional engines like our 250's which were designed in the early 80's for the most part. For ISO standard measurements, viscosity is compared at 40C and 100C, where 40C is the "cold" measurement and 100C is the "hot" measurement. I don't remember SAE comparison temps off the top of my head, but they're not far off. 180F is ringing a bell for the hot temp.

The reason I bring up temperatures is because the "cold" temp is well above a "winter" temperature, even though the W does stand for winter. That means the number before the W is important for every cold start the engine will ever see. Remember that the temperature inside the engine between parts at the time is is running is what's important, much moreso than the ambient conditions when the engine is run.

The garage hack method for picking a multi-grade oil is to go as low as you can on the first number without getting excessive valve train noise at start up, and go just as high as you need on the second number to maintain oil pressure at your harshest operating conditions (internally).

The easiest way is to just listen to the manufacturers recommendations, in this case 10W-40. Although the bike does seem to respond really well to synthetic 5W-40.
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Old May 10th, 2018, 06:12 PM   #7
Dave Wolfe
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The service manual says 10w30 is good up to 86 deg F temperatures.
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Old May 10th, 2018, 07:22 PM   #8
1994Ninja250F
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choneofakind View Post
This is wrong. W for wrong.

The W might stand for winter, but it's really the viscosity grade of the base oil. Viscosity modifiers help the oil to "thicken" as it warms and behave with a similar viscosity to the second, higher number. So a 10W-30 is an oil with a viscosity that falls into the SAE 10 grade; however, viscosity modifiers have been added to this oil so that when it is at operating temperature, its viscosity falls within the SAE 30 grade.

"Cold" is a relative term. Remember your engine easily sees 200F temps in the hotter places, IE the piston ring and cylinder contact area. New engines that run more boost, higher exhaust temps, and hotter thermostats are seeing higher internal temps than traditional engines like our 250's which were designed in the early 80's for the most part. For ISO standard measurements, viscosity is compared at 40C and 100C, where 40C is the "cold" measurement and 100C is the "hot" measurement. I don't remember SAE comparison temps off the top of my head, but they're not far off. 180F is ringing a bell for the hot temp.

The reason I bring up temperatures is because the "cold" temp is well above a "winter" temperature, even though the W does stand for winter. That means the number before the W is important for every cold start the engine will ever see. Remember that the temperature inside the engine between parts at the time is is running is what's important, much moreso than the ambient conditions when the engine is run.

The garage hack method for picking a multi-grade oil is to go as low as you can on the first number without getting excessive valve train noise at start up, and go just as high as you need on the second number to maintain oil pressure at your harshest operating conditions (internally).

The easiest way is to just listen to the manufacturers recommendations, in this case 10W-40. Although the bike does seem to respond really well to synthetic 5W-40.
I probably could have worded my post a little better. Yes the "cold" number is definitely important regardless of what climate you live in, as it tells us how well the oil flows at engine startup.

What I was getting at is that in this particular situation, I would be more concerned with using oil that has the proper "hot rating" (i.e. -40 or -50), and worry about the "cold" number second. If you're using the proper oil for which the bike has been spec'ed for, you won't have to worry about bearing failure or the other issues that will seize your motor from using oil that's too thin. You can run any "cold" number you want, as long as the "hot" number is what the manual calls for, which is -40 or -50 only.

If I were OP, if nothing else, pick anything that is -40 or -50 (and isn't Energy Conserving). After narrowing it down to only those, then decide on the "cold" viscosity. Just do NOT use that -30 stuff.

Quote:
The service manual says 10w30 is good up to 86 deg F temperatures
Per the service manual, the only approved oils for this bike are in the -40 and -50 series. -30 oils aren't in there.
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Old May 10th, 2018, 08:11 PM   #9
Triple Jim
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Originally Posted by Dave Wolfe View Post
The service manual says 10w30 is good up to 86 deg F temperatures.
Thanks, I looked for that and didn't see it. Maybe it's in the "base manual". I checked the later supplement. I bet that Maine there aren't a lot of days over 86.
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Old May 10th, 2018, 11:26 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EffaMoulton View Post
I just bought gn4 10w-30 oil to realize that the bike calls for 10w-40, do you think it would be ok to run it?
In Main I think you'll be OK with 10w-30. I run Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40.

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Old May 11th, 2018, 05:02 AM   #11
Dave Wolfe
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In the service manual im looking at, its page 2-49 under periodic maint / oil change. Theres a chart and a little note about oil viscoscities and ambient conditions.
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Old May 11th, 2018, 06:30 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1994Ninja250F View Post

If I were OP, if nothing else, pick anything that is -40 or -50 (and isn't Energy Conserving). After narrowing it down to only those, then decide on the "cold" viscosity. Just do NOT use that -30 stuff.

Per the service manual, the only approved oils for this bike are in the -40 and -50 series. -30 oils aren't in there.
Just to clarify - don't use "just anything" - meaning don't use an automotive oil.

The whole "Energy Conserving" thing really isn't an issue. It's only in oils that are 30-grade or less. The issue with current auto oil is the lack of additives (Zinc and Phosphate or ZDDP) that you need for an engine with non-roller valvetrains like most cycle engines.

Use a diesel oil, or any motorcycle specific oil, and you are safe.

It's usually better to run a lower viscosity oil than a higher one. Reason being, a lower viscosity oil flows easier, moves heat away quicker, and doesn't build excessive oil pressure. Many race motorcycle engines run straight 0W oil safely. While they may not expect to go 100,000 mi before being torn down, some are making over 300 HP and running at WOT for more than a mile. Plenty of time to melt down from any oil-related issue.

Really, a 30-grade isn't going to cause problems. Even Rotella T6 5W-40 will drop close to the range of a 30-grade after moderate use in a cycle trans. If you have an older, worn, engine (with large clearances) that needs the additional oil pressure (mostly at low RPMs), then a heavier oil is a good idea.
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Old May 11th, 2018, 09:05 AM   #13
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Yes, be very careful about using auto oils. Only use those with sufficient zinc ZDDP extreme-pressure/extreme-heat additives. Latest auto oils reduced ZDDP levels so low, that older cars with flat-tappets experienced top-end failures. Only auto-oils that didn't get reduction are 15w50 and 20w50 oils, I suspect because Porsche primarily uses that Mobil-1 oil. That reduction is probably why manual suggests newer API-grade oils must also have motorcycle JASO MA endorsements as well to make up for lost of ZDDP.



Note that hot operating weight on chart uses ambient temperatures as proxy indicator of actual engine-oil temps. That's OK if you don't have oil-temp gauge. Usage-type should also be considered as that's primary cause of oil-temperatures. If you're doing average type of stop-n-go driving, then chart is accurate; and 30-weight is perfectly fine for sub '86F usage.

However, if you're maintaining bike at WOT near redline under racing conditions, you'll want to go off right side of scale with 50-weight; even then it may not be enough. I've found most 15w50 or 20w50 actually drops oil-pressure at end of 20-min track session in +100F heat even with radiator-fan connected. The only oil I've found that doesn't do this is Motorex 4T 10w50 oil.

Here's tonne of great info on motor oils.

https://www.sportrider.com/oils-well...ds-well-part-1
https://www.sportrider.com/oils-well...ds-well-part-2
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Old May 11th, 2018, 09:25 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
However, if you're maintaining bike near redline under racing conditions, you'll want to go off right side of scale with 50-weight; even then it may not be enough. I've found most 15w50 or 20w50 actually drops oil-pressure at end of 20-min track session in +100F heat even with radiator-fan connected. The only oil I've found that doesn't do this is Motorex 4T 10w50 oil.
How are you reading oil pressure? What is it?

Low pressure (hot) at idle isn't a problem. At high RPMs there should be plenty of excess pressure that is being bled off anyway.

There are some studies out there about oil weight/temp/pressure on track. Their basic conclusion is that heavier oil isn't better, or required, to sustain adequate pressure even in the hottest conditions.

The key is synthetic oil, which doesn't have any breakdown issues at extreme temps like conventional oil does.
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Old May 11th, 2018, 09:42 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Yes, be very careful about using auto oils. Only use those with sufficient zinc ZDDP extreme-pressure/extreme-heat additives. Latest auto oils reduced ZDDP levels so low, that older cars with flat-tappets experienced top-end failures. Only auto-oils that didn't get reduction are 15w50 and 20w50 oils, I suspect because Porsche primarily uses that Mobil-1 oil. That reduction is probably why manual suggests newer API-grade oils must also have motorcycle JASO MA endorsements as well to make up for lost of ZDDP.



Note that hot operating weight on chart uses ambient temperatures as proxy indicator of actual engine-oil temps. That's OK if you don't have oil-temp gauge. Usage-type should also be considered as that's primary cause of oil-temperatures. If you're doing average type of stop-n-go driving, then chart is accurate; and 30-weight is perfectly fine for sub '86F usage.

However, if you're maintaining bike at WOT near redline under racing conditions, you'll want to go off right side of scale with 50-weight; even then it may not be enough. I've found most 15w50 or 20w50 actually drops oil-pressure at end of 20-min track session in +100F heat even with radiator-fan connected. The only oil I've found that doesn't do this is Motorex 4T 10w50 oil.

Here's tonne of great info on motor oils.

https://www.sportrider.com/oils-well...ds-well-part-1
https://www.sportrider.com/oils-well...ds-well-part-2
The four cylinder Offenhauser racing engine ran straight 50 weight oil. Engine warm-up was about 30 minutes (prior to starting the engine).

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Old May 11th, 2018, 09:45 AM   #16
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So it seems that I should probably just save the oil for something else and just buy 10w-40
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Old May 11th, 2018, 09:57 AM   #17
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So it seems that I should probably just save the oil for something else and just buy 10w-40
Use it for your lawn mower, garden tractor or automobile. That little Kaw engine works hard for a living - give her the best.

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