Suspension Upgrades or Tires?

[Manimal]

Or both?

I'm tossed.

Granted, I have not had the 300 for that long, and only have a few rides on it. I'm just not quite coming to grip (partially pun intended) with the handling, or corner confidence. At times, I lack confidence through some corners. Not sure if the OEM suspension is too soft, or it's the OEM tires.

Will switching tires (Diablos's) help boost my cornering confidence, or adding Race Tech springs do it, or both? Or do I just need to stop being such a wussy, put in more seat time and just need to adapt / adjust and accept what the OEM 300 has to offer?!

Now! Keep in mind, I love a good riding pace, but ride nothing like a couple (or a few) of others here on the forum. Additionally, the last couple of Ninja's I had owned had suspension upgrades. I had never ridden or owned a Ninja with "stock" suspension. So, this is a first.

[jkv45]

Upgrade tires before suspension, unless you are significantly heavier than "average".

It would also depend on the quality of the tires that are on it now and the type of riding you do. If you have the money, do both, but I feel tires are the most important.

I'll add - I don't know the quality of the OEM tires on the Ninja 300, but I bought a new cycle that had terrible OEM tires on it. I replaced them after riding for 500 mi. A good set of sport tires made a huge difference in the handling. With the OEM tires it was sketchy and would slide and squirm even at a moderate street pace. After installing a set of quality sport tires the handling was 10X more predictable. Just because they are new, and came with the cycle, don't assume they are good - or even good enough.

[alex.s]

spend money on lessons and track time. it will help you much more with confidence than bike upgrades ever will.

[Milsparro]

Tires.

[csmith12]

Only a few rides? Don't buy anything... crank up the rear preload and ride on. Give it a chance.

[InvisiBill]

Weight? If you're close to what the stock springs are good for, the money can be put to better use elsewhere. If you're way off what the springs are designed for, then spending a few bucks on a spring upgrade can make a huge difference.

As a fatty with an EX500 on stock springs, I'll say that upgrading the springs at both ends to the proper rate is the best mod I've done, even for just commuting. With springs of the proper rate, the wheels move like they're supposed to. It absorbs the bumps like it should so the ride is smoother, while at the same time removing the squishiness when I'm riding harder.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by alex.s

spend money on lessons and track time. it will help you much more with confidence than bike upgrades ever will.

That's true, with a couple exceptions...tires being one...

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by jkv45

That's true, with a couple exceptions...tires being one...

he mentioned that he has no idea why he has no confidence. this means he doesn't know what's going wrong. better tires will simply mask this problem. he does not need better equipment. he needs better training. if he had enough training to know what the problem was, he wouldn't need to ask what his problem is. the problem is that he doesn't know what the problem is. only experience and training/learning can fix this. tires will not change what you know about your bike or how you are able to utilize it. it will only change the bike.

[csmith12]

Alex.s, there is nothing wrong with erroring on the side of caution and overbuying to prevent a possible crash (no guarantees there though). It takes longer to learn about things when your leg is in a cast. :\ And yes, without training/time... it is more likely to mask a more fundamental issue.

Bottom line, I have seen racers place second (5-6 seconds off lap record pace) on irc's and other riders like myself hate the overall feel at anything above a warm up pace.

I have learned that we are only talking about a few hunnit' bucks here. Not worth the alternatives.....

[Snake]

Riding lessons and then new tires.

[Alex]

Maybe, but Daren is being a little modest. As far as I know, he does have quite a bit of tracktime under his belt, and is an experienced rider. I don't think the OEM tires on the Ninja 300 are dangerous to the extent that they are a safety issue, but IMO faster riders looking for stickier rubber isn't the worst idea in the world.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by alex.s

he mentioned that he has no idea why he has no confidence. this means he doesn't know what's going wrong. better tires will simply mask this problem. he does not need better equipment. he needs better training. if he had enough training to know what the problem was, he wouldn't need to ask what his problem is. the problem is that he doesn't know what the problem is. only experience and training/learning can fix this. tires will not change what you know about your bike or how you are able to utilize it. it will only change the bike.

That's an oversimplification. There are certainly times where your equipment CAN be the problem.

As I said, I've experienced new OEM tires that have given me a complete lack of confidence in the cycle's handling. I didn't know the exact cause positively, just that it handled poorly and was unpredictable, but confirmed it was the tires after making a switch.

Obviously training is a good idea, but even a rider with average proficiency can benefit from a high quality set of tires. He said "the last couple of Ninja's I had owned had suspension upgrades" - so he knows more than you are giving him credit for.

If he feels a lack of confidence with this his new cycle vs his former ones I don't have any reason to doubt there is something giving him that impression. Could it be something else? Certainly, but it's not out of the question to think it could be related to tires or suspension.

EDIT: Thanks for the "Unhelpful Post" rating on post #7 alex.s. Insisting that tires can't possibly be an issue, and that he needs more training, is pretty closed-minded. Can't wait until I can vote on your posts...

[alex.s]

i know you mostly only post to disagree with me. or at least you only quote me when that's the case.

i'm going to explain your faulty logic very carefully. hopefully you understand where you have gone wrong.

you said "As I said, I've experienced new OEM tires that have given me a complete lack of confidence in the cycle's handling. I didn't know the exact cause positively, just that it handled poorly and was unpredictable, but confirmed it was the tires after making a switch."

what this means is that before you switched tires, you had literally no idea what was going wrong. you had no idea what was causing the issues you were having. so you took a stab in the dark and put on new tires. did that fix the problem? you have no idea because you still can't answer what the problem with your handling was. only that replacing the tires made the problem go away. was it grip level? was it tire profile? was it rubber age? carcass strength? the point is you can't answer what was wrong with your tires. only that "they weren't good enough" for what you were trying to do to them. this means that they could have had no issues what so ever, but because of some skill problem you were introducing, they did "unpredictable things"... why is it unpredictable? because _YOU_ are unable to predict it. that doesn't mean there is necessarily something wrong with the tire.

you need more training. and so does the OP.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i know you mostly only post to disagree with me. or at least you only quote me when that's the case.

i'm going to explain your faulty logic very carefully. hopefully you understand where you have gone wrong.

you said "As I said, I've experienced new OEM tires that have given me a complete lack of confidence in the cycle's handling. I didn't know the exact cause positively, just that it handled poorly and was unpredictable, but confirmed it was the tires after making a switch."

what this means is that before you switched tires, you had literally no idea what was going wrong. you had no idea what was causing the issues you were having. so you took a stab in the dark and put on new tires. did that fix the problem? you have no idea because you still can't answer what the problem with your handling was. only that replacing the tires made the problem go away. was it grip level? was it tire profile? was it rubber age? carcass strength? the point is you can't answer what was wrong with your tires. only that "they weren't good enough" for what you were trying to do to them.

you need more training. and so does the OP.

Ya - you know it all...

My experience on the street and track led me to believe it was an issue with the tires - profile, compound, whatever - and it was.

You like to talk out your...

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Ya - you know it all...

My experience on the street and track led me to believe it was an issue with the tires - profile, compound, whatever - and it was.

You like to talk out your...

so what was wrong with the tires?

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by alex.s

so what was wrong with the tires?

They sucked.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by jkv45

They sucked.

sounds like it was a problem with your psi, if they are pulling a vacuum. so i would still say user error.

[LNasty]

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by jkv45

They sucked.

Since I am in rare form today....

You're gunna have to do better than that. A few posts above, I was somewhat in agreement that tires could benefit the OP. But "they sucked" offers no real help to Manimal's question, nor the overall point of the thread.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Since I am in rare form today....

You're gunna have to do better than that. A few posts above, I was somewhat in agreement that tires could benefit the OP. But "they sucked" offers no real help to Manimal's question, nor the overall point of the thread.

The entire "debate" was getting a bit out of hand, so I abbreviated my reply.

I mentioned their performance in my first post about poor OEM tires.

The OEM tires made my cycle feel completely wrong - unpredictable and not confidence inspiring. They would drop into a corner abruptly, squirm and slide when riding even moderately, and gave little feedback before letting go. I felt i was very likely to go down without warning at any point - so I replaced them.

With a different tire the handling improved dramatically. It would turn-in predictably and hold the correct line easily. It improved the handling and safety considerably over the OEM tire.

I've ridden and raced on questionable tires, and these OEM tires were some of the worst I've ever experienced.

There is an amount of trial-and-error when it comes to solving handling issues. Ask the Ducati MotoGP team. They've been trying to get their cycle to handle for years. It's taken numerous frames and changes to (finally) do it, so saying you can quickly, easily, and accurately determine the exact cause of a handling problem is not realistic.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by alex.s

sounds like it was a problem with your psi, if they are pulling a vacuum. so i would still say user error.

You're right alex - I should have checked the vacuum.

My bad.

[csmith12]

Agreed, not worth it for a few hunnit'.

I am comfortable with that response as long as you are comfortable with "poor" being a relative term. Them meddling kids that know no better are crazy, damn fast on the suckiest of equipment. In your response, "I" is the keyword. "I"mho, the only logical response here is some additional seat time to come to logical conclusion on what best meets the OP needs. After all, it's his $$$$ and only his derrière can truly answer the question. We are free to offer up out experience, but it is just that.... nothing more.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by jkv45

The entire "debate" was getting a bit out of hand, so I abbreviated my reply.

I mentioned their performance in my first post about poor OEM tires.

The OEM tires made my cycle feel completely wrong - unpredictable and not confidence inspiring. They would drop into a corner abruptly, squirm and slide when riding even moderately, and gave little feedback before letting go. I felt i was very likely to go down without warning at any point - so I replaced them.

With a different tire the handling improved dramatically. It would turn-in predictably and hold the correct line easily. It improved the handling and safety considerably over the OEM tire.

I've ridden and raced on questionable tires, and these OEM tires were some of the worst I've ever experienced.

There is an amount of trial-and-error when it comes to solving handling issues. Ask the Ducati MotoGP team. They've been trying to get their cycle to handle for years. It's taken numerous frames and changes to (finally) do it, so saying you can quickly, easily, and accurately determine the exact cause of a handling problem is not realistic.

...

what series'/clubs have you raced in? what were your qualifying times? how far off pole? how big was the grid?

maybe i am naive. but i think there is a bit of a difference between constructing an entirely new type of motorcycle frame and having some balance issues with it at the top of the top of the fast guys... and some guy with old oem tires who can't tell the difference between a square tire and old rubber... just simply that there is some unexplainable problem... and so he starts replacing parts without knowing what the real issue is.

--alex

[alex.s]

heyyyy!!!!

i know!!!!

DUCTATI JUST NEEDS TO CHANGE THEIR TIRES!!!

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by alex.s

...

what series'/clubs have you raced in? what were your qualifying times? how far off pole? how big was the grid?

maybe i am naive. but i think there is a bit of a difference between constructing an entirely new type of motorcycle frame and having some balance issues with it at the top of the top of the fast guys... and some guy with old oem tires who can't tell the difference between a square tire and old rubber... just simply that there is some unexplainable problem... and so he starts replacing parts without knowing what the real issue is.

--alex

I've stated my opinion - you've stated yours.

My comments were in an effort to help the OP deride what would be a good step to improving what he determined to be odd handling of his new cycle compared to what he was accustomed to. I stated that I had a similar experience that I traced to the OEM tires.

Not sure why it got to be such a pissing match, but whatever.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by jkv45

I've stated my opinion - you've stated yours.

My comments were in an effort to help the OP deride what would be a good step to improving what he determined to be odd handling of his new cycle compared to what he was accustomed to. I stated that I had a similar experience that I traced to the OEM tires.

Not sure why it got to be such a pissing match, but whatever.

when someone tells me i am wrong, i expect a valid explanation that uses valid logic. you have not given one. instead you suggested taking stabs in the dark without valid logical reasoning behind it. this is the road to failure. it is not a pissing match. it is me saying that you are simply flat out wrong and don't know what you are talking about. if you would care to show that i am incorrect on this i would very much invite you to explain what was wrong with your tires, other than, "they weren't right"

[Tigerpaw]

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by alex.s

when someone tells me i am wrong, i expect a valid explanation that uses valid logic. you have not given one. instead you suggested taking stabs in the dark without valid logical reasoning behind it. this is the road to failure. it is not a pissing match. it is me saying that you are simply flat out wrong and don't know what you are talking about. if you would care to show that i am incorrect on this i would very much invite you to explain what was wrong with your tires, other than, "they weren't right"

I said "they sucked". Reread post #20 - I detailed it there.

Do you want technical details like tire profile or tread block design? That's not the issue. I isolated the problem and corrected it.

It's all about feel, so it's hard to describe, but if it doesn't feel right it ain't right.

You just like to pick a fight and hate being challenged.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by jkv45

I isolated the problem and corrected it.

so what was the problem with your tires then?

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by alex.s

so what was the problem with your tires then?

They sucked.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by jkv45

They sucked.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by alex.s

heyyyy!!!!

i know!!!!

DUCTATI JUST NEEDS TO CHANGE THEIR TIRES!!!

didn't they actually try this? if I remember right there were some rule changes in motogp this year that allowed ducati to use softer rubber...or was that just the non-factory teams?

on point, I never had an issue with the stock tires on the 300. The stock tires on my pregen were deadly with 0 grip because they were the tires from '01 when I got the bike. The oem tires aren't as bad as people say they are, sure they don't grip as well but if you ride long enough and get heat into them they're fine for anything short of track pace and even then you can go to the track on them without any major sliding issues. rojoracing used to use stock IRC rear tires on track all the time before he got into the michelins (which last longer and give better grip at the same time) and I'm pretty sure he's faster than everyone in this thread while using stock IRC tires. That said their feedback is not ideal but it isn't anything that should cause major discomfort at a street pace (within 20mph of speed limit)

without any other information I'd say head to the track and find the issue there, the suspension on the 300 is fine if not a little soft on the front under hard braking but nothing that should be diminishing confidence. If you have the extra money there's nothing wrong with getting new tires since they're a crucial part of your motorcycle anyway. If you do so I recommend the pirelli diablo rossi II tires or the michelin pilot street radials (I run the michelins myself)

[Manimal]

Originally Posted by Alex

Maybe, but Daren is being a little modest. As far as I know, he does have quite a bit of tracktime under his belt, and is an experienced rider. I don't think the OEM tires on the Ninja 300 are dangerous to the extent that they are a safety issue, but IMO faster riders looking for stickier rubber isn't the worst idea in the world.

Thanks for the post Alex. Sure answered some of the questions and comments posted.

Boy, I really opened up a can of worms ....... sorry

Any how, Thanks for the comments, and opinions.

A lot of my issue is / can be my mental state when and or while negotiating some corners. The feedback I get from the bike at times, has me second guess my approach of taking on some corners; whether brisk / aggressive, or take a more reserved approach.
In other words, the bike just doesn't quite feel planted, due to the OEM suspension being soft (imo), compared to what I am used to with previous bikes I had owned, and or ridden. And admit, I don't have enough seat time on this bike to have the trust in the tires.

Along with my initial inquiry, I guess I was also looking for some validation from those that made a tire change, and or made suspension adjustments, of whether it was a night and day experience.

As previously mentioned, I had purchased a used 09 Ninja 250 with suspension mods (race tech springs and after market rear shock), and OEM IRC's. This bike for me, felt planted and the tires never gave me any reason of doubt, even at a brisk pace. Therefore, my confidence was high.

I had a similar issue when I had purchased a used 07 Gixxer 600. Even after having the suspension adjusted per my weight. It wasn't till I wore down the Dunlop Q2's and replaced them with Dunlop Q3's and dialing in the air pressure to my liking, is where I found my comfort zone and confidence with the bike.

Some of you commented about weight, and OEM springs; 150ish lbs
What is the weight rating of the OEM springs, btw? Just curious is all.

Also there was a comment about adjusting the preload on the rear shock. I have not gotten to do this, yet...... planned.

As for tires, I may opt for this first, before any suspension adjustments; whether simply going with a heavier fork oil, and or springs. And of coarse, the rear shock adjusted.

Any regard, thanks for your comments, input and insight offered.

[alex.s]

if you had no issues with IRCs on a tracked out 250, then to me it sounds like you don't like the wallowy street suspension... it really does give a vague feeling when its damped so little. maybe just increase your oil weight as a first step and see how you feel about the changes? that's cheap and fairly easy.

[accumack]

This is for the 300
I would go with some driven clipons first it really helps with feed back.
First I ride really hard and have stock suspension and IRC road winners and don't have problem.
1. set your sag front and rear It totally changes the feel of the bike. for the rear adjust the preload adjuster for the front you need to use pvc spacers.
2. check your tire pressures if they are too high the tires don't warmup and get grip and give feedback

With that said there are better tires out there like the Pirelli Diablo Rosso II also the 2006-07 GSXR600r rear shock is a great upgrade for cheap. Thereare many upgrades you can do to the front suspension it just depends on how deep your pockets are.

[Manimal]

Thanks for the replies .... appreciated and noted.

Ah! air pressure. Using my 09 Ninja as a baseline, my current psi (cold) is set to 28psi front, 30 rear.

Btw, keep in mind, I generally ride twisty backroads (mostly tight and technical), no commuting (or not much freeway), and no real plans for the track. I do have a dedicated track bike, fyi

[accumack]

I ride mostly twisties and have mine set at 27 front 29-30 rear. I just set my sag a few weeks ago and it is a completely different bike. I weigh about 205 in gear and have my rear preload set on #4.

[CycleCam303]

Darren I used this set up when I rode the 250 with you guys.

A minimum of a rosso 2 up front and leave it at that for a bit. The irc doesn't feel confidence inspiring and the bike just needs the front end to talk better.

I used a stock 300 rear tire and it had no issues on the street or track.

The stock irc has a wonky profile so it feels squirmy on its side. It'll grip but it isn't confidence inspiring.

[Manimal]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

Darren I used this set up when I rode the 250 with you guys.

A minimum of a rosso 2 up front and leave it at that for a bit. The irc doesn't feel confidence inspiring and the bike just needs the front end to talk better.

I used a stock 300 rear tire and it had no issues on the street or track.

The stock irc has a wonky profile so it feels squirmy on its side. It'll grip but it isn't confidence inspiring.

Knowing your experience and abilities, Cam, that's good to know. Although, I would like to know how much different the 250 vs 300 in regards to suspension (front spring rating and rear shock)? I am sure this has been discussed. So, if any one happens to have a link handy, I would appreciate a reply.

In any regard, I am planning a visit with Rob at Evolution Suspension to adjust the rear, and inquiry of what minimal adjustments can be made with the front, based on my weight and OEM spring rating.

[JohnnyBravo]

Originally Posted by alex.s

if you had no issues with IRCs on a tracked out 250, then to me it sounds like you don't like the wallowy street suspension... it really does give a vague feeling when its damped so little. maybe just increase your oil weight as a first step and see how you feel about the changes? that's cheap and fairly easy.

Insert knee jerk reaction -> idiot. It's the tires!