Jumping ship in 2015 - Yamaha R25/R3

[psych0hans]

Guys, the bike you're looking at is just a prototype... A lot will be changed by the time it actually comes into production... You can definitely say good bye to all the bling in the production model. From what I've been reading they aren't even confirmed about the engine yet... It might be a single or a parallel twin.

[old3]

We know, still would rather they teased with this as a 350cc shrieker!

[Xtina]

Originally Posted by old3

We know, still would rather they teased with this as a 350cc shrieker!

If this was available here I'd buy it in a heartbeat even though it's a 125. it's gorgeous. I'd give my left ovary. And if the 300 has all the bling that this does, then I've died and gone to heaven.

[old3]

I went as far as to contact Aprilia and Derbi last month to beg them to import their 125cc SS bikes!

[old3]

Who needs ovaries anyway?

[old3]

Originally Posted by old3

Who needs kids anyway?

Don't worry, your ovaries are safe, they said no way they are coming over here!

[Somchai]

Quote: "Also the rumor that the final product will be a 300cc (YZF-R30) has intensified."
The guys on this website most time know what they talk about...
http://www.motorcycle.in.th/article....-Outside-Japan

[Aufitt]

When the USA gets a sensible tiered licensing system,

then you can get nice small bikes we in the rest of the world have enjoyed for decades.

[old3]

I don't need tiered licensing shoved down my throat, I just want cool, small bikes. Your system also brought about the most boring bikes ever created in the Honda 500cc twins, so thanks anyway!

Maybe we can raise insurance costs too, that might work, huh?

Raise the price of fuel? Tax the population out of the sport entirely? It is dangerous after all.

Sensible. Yeah, OK. A 18 year old adult can drive a military tank in combat or use deadly force as a police officer but can't ride a bike with over 15 HP. And this coming from a guy with a RZ500???

Maybe keep politics out of the bike discussions?

[mania]

That derbi is nice old3
As well as the Aprilia of course

You know I had never heard of Paioli till I saw their name on
the Derbi forks

Interesting website & they have various USD legs
even a 37mm geared to 125's as well as 41mm & more
http://www.paioli.com/eng/prod.php#

[Aufitt]

Originally Posted by old3

I don't need tiered licensing shoved down my throat, I just want cool, small bikes. Your system also brought about the most boring bikes ever created in the Honda 500cc twins, so thanks anyway!

Maybe we can raise insurance costs too, that might work, huh?

Raise the price of fuel? Tax the population out of the sport entirely? It is dangerous after all.

Sensible. Yeah, OK. A 18 year old adult can drive a military tank in combat or use deadly force as a police officer but can't ride a bike with over 15 HP. And this coming from a guy with a RZ500???

Maybe keep politics out of the bike discussions?

^Says the guy that just bought a whole lot of politics into it.
Irony heh.

Keep up those goddam Liberties,
they've prevented you from a plethora of nice 125's and 250's the rest of the world has enjoyed, and whole lot more that may come along.

And yep I bought my RZ in 1985, but I did spend 2 yrs on 250's first and a moped at 16.
Maybe helped me to stay alive all these years.

[mania]

Here ya go this is perfect...

Only problem is cost 99,800 EUR or $138,000
Also it is just a single cylinder
But......It does make 55bhp at 13,900rpm
Not bad for a 250cc
http://blog.ktm.com/klaus-hirsekorn-...x-engineering/

Seriously though I do wish someone "like" Kalex would do a frame
or rolling chassis at reasonable price for sport/hobby folks
Probably not possible though to deliver at a price sport/hobby folks would/could pay

[old3]

Originally Posted by mania

That derbi is nice old3
As well as the Aprilia of course

You know I had never heard of Paioli till I saw their name on
the Derbi forks

Interesting website & they have various USD legs
even a 37mm geared to 125's as well as 41mm & more
http://www.paioli.com/eng/prod.php#

Paioli made the forks on my kids 50/65cc KTM and Husky MX bikes back 15-20 years ago. They weren't anything special on those bikes but they made good upper end forks too. I think they were the supplier for a few Ducatis and maybe Guzzis too.

I'm sure they are a big step up from our 1970 forks regardless. Whenever I handle mine I recall the old CB350s and Hodakas that wore similar forks. The ones you posted there look amazing.

[old3]

Originally Posted by mania

Here ya go this is perfect...

Only problem is cost 99,800 EUR or $138,000
Also it is just a single cylinder
But......It does make 55bhp at 13,900rpm
Not bad for a 250cc
http://blog.ktm.com/klaus-hirsekorn-...x-engineering/

Seriously though I do wish someone "like" Kalex would do a frame
or rolling chassis at reasonable price for sport/hobby folks
Probably not possible though to deliver at a price sport/hobby folks would/could pay

Those are beautiful. Too bad EBR is building a bottom rung bike. I can imagine their aluminum frame design with fuel inside it being a real neat package on a small bike. The aluminum framed 4t singles I've dealt with, especially a KX450f, were a PITA to work on. The frame spars get in the way of everything. In contrast, the KTM trellis I had on my various 950s was a joy. Lots of room to get in there once the tank/tanks were off.

[old3]

Originally Posted by Aufitt

^Says the guy that just bought a whole lot of politics into it.
Irony heh.

Keep up those goddam Liberties,
they've prevented you from a plethora of nice 125's and 250's the rest of the world has enjoyed, and whole lot more that may come along.

And yep I bought my RZ in 1985, but I did spend 2 yrs on 250's first and a moped at 16.
Maybe helped me to stay alive all these years.

Maybe, or maybe not. If you like tiered licensing, great for you. I can self regulate and decide for myself.

I had bigger bikes as a teenager and maybe that kept me alive. Not the governments job to keep me safe from myself, thank you very much. They fook up everything they touch already.

This is my 20 year old son. He was taught that he is responsible for his decisions and the consequences. He couldn't ride a bike with more than 15 HP in your country.



I'll keep what is left of my liberties, enjoy the lack of yours cause, well, it is for your own good!

[Alex]

Enough baiting and trolling for the day.

No more warnings.

[psych0hans]

Originally Posted by Alex

Enough baiting and trolling for the day.

No more warnings.

[Whiskey]

Speaking of tiered licencing (Which I think is nanny state bollox) the Yam 300 can't be aimed at Europe, same reason that the N300 can't be. You need to do the test for the 2nd licence (a2) on a 395+ cc bike. You can own one with the a2, but need a 400-600 to get the a2 in the first place.

What's the point of a bike that you can't get your licence on?

Honda's 500 was the only one you could buy, do your test on & keep for the 2 years.

[Aggrotech]

why isnt there any sport bikes in the 400cc area?

Wouldnt that be the perfect blend? even slightly faster than kawi 300, which is good, but not as ridiculously fast as a ss600..

[Aufitt]

In Oz we have LAMS,
basically 150kw/tonne including 90kg rider and limit of 660cc.
So all the cbr250rr, zxr, fzr etc are included along with the 400's and boring heavy restricted 600's & 650's

Excludes RGV, NSR TZR 250 which were allowed under the old 250 system that LAMS replaced.

Europe has the 125's , that's why the manufacturers make them.
Because of lams we get the 390's and a lot of other small bikes that come downunder.

Stops noobs buying 600 & 1000cc supersports for the first year an the associated carnage.

[choneofakind]

Am I weird that I would be interested in a 600 or 636 that's been restricted to ~70 hp via messing with the throttle map? I can't be the only one. I'd be interested in buying a modern middleweight with 2 map settings; keep the full power one for track time/fun time, then take the other map setting and neuter the throttle map to about 60-70 hp so it's an easy riding street bike.

I think 70 hp from a mid-weight motor is that sweet spot for performance vs overkill vs realistic potential. More gutsy than the ninjettes, but not crazy temptation rockets. Plus an actual frame and suspension that handles well.

[psych0hans]

I'm all for 400cc super sports, but within a certain price point of course... I'm sure they could shew horn a 650 twin and make a 650 ss out of our little ninjette

who wants to fund my frankenbike project? lol

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Am I weird that I would be interested in a 600 or 636 that's been restricted to ~70 hp via messing with the throttle map? I can't be the only one. I'd be interested in buying a modern middleweight with 2 map settings; keep the full power one for track time/fun time, then take the other map setting and neuter the throttle map to about 60-70 hp so it's an easy riding street bike.

I think 70 hp from a mid-weight motor is that sweet spot for performance vs overkill vs realistic potential. More gutsy than the ninjettes, but not crazy temptation rockets. Plus an actual frame and suspension that handles well.

What does the Gixxer 600 k8 make in wet mode?

Could we turn chone all squidly

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

What does the Gixxer 600 k8 make in wet mode?

Could we turn chone all squidly

not sure, likely somewhere around that magic 70 hp mark? I'd have to do some research to know.


I think a GSXR would be a hard sell for me just because I know nothing about them. I'm a little more comfortable with Kawi's and Honda's. But I'd look into a GSXR600 with wet mode. I really am in love with Kawi green and how the new 636 looks though.

[hirubhaiambani]

Anybody heard of the Johnny Pag Falcon? Sounds interesting but the price makes me wonder of the quality.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

not sure, likely somewhere around that magic 70 hp mark? I'd have to do some research to know.


I think a GSXR would be a hard sell for me just because I know nothing about them. I'm a little more comfortable with Kawi's and Honda's. But I'd look into a GSXR600 with wet mode. I really am in love with Kawi green and how the new 636 looks though.

3 modes on the k8, apparently
A=100% power (~124 BHP)
B=75% power (~93)
C=50% (~62)

The current ones have 2, don't know what the lower one is.

The numbers I'm using are from the current (l4) UK spec bike, can't find the numbers for the k8-k10.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Am I weird that I would be interested in a 600 or 636 that's been restricted to ~70 hp via messing with the throttle map? I can't be the only one. I'd be interested in buying a modern middleweight with 2 map settings; keep the full power one for track time/fun time, then take the other map setting and neuter the throttle map to about 60-70 hp so it's an easy riding street bike.

I think 70 hp from a mid-weight motor is that sweet spot for performance vs overkill vs realistic potential. More gutsy than the ninjettes, but not crazy temptation rockets. Plus an actual frame and suspension that handles well.

would the cbr650f fit that description or is that bike too heavy?
It doesn't have modes though and it's likely a better street than track bike, at least if it's stock.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Sirref

would the cbr650f fit that description or is that bike too heavy?
It doesn't have modes though and it's likely a better street than track bike, at least if it's stock.

Already looking at that bike for after college as my street bike. And possibly one of these new fangled little ninjette competitors (assuming they actually get imported to the US of A ) to get hot-rodded for cheap track time.

the 650 might need some suspension work though. I've no idea what the internals of those forks look like. Retrofitting cartridge internals is always an option though.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

3 modes on the k8, apparently
A=100% power (~124 BHP)
B=75% power (~93)
C=50% (~62)

Hmmmmm

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Already looking at that bike for after college as my street bike. And possibly one of these new fangled little ninjette competitors (assuming they actually get imported to the US of A ) to get hot-rodded for cheap track time.

the 650 might need some suspension work though. I've no idea what the internals of those forks look like. Retrofitting cartridge internals is always an option though.

Yea, I'm considering it as a street bike in a few years as well against the triumph street triple r. Building a few 250/300 class racing/track bikes with one of them staying street legal for when I get the small displacement itch is probably a good idea too. As well as one 1000cc track bike at some point just to be able to break 150mph from time to time, it's surprisingly easy to find them in salvage lots and it only takes 2-3 broken R1s to build a fully functional one.

[Somchai]

Gixxer Mode A, B, C
From the manual it explains
A-mode provides sharp throttle response at all the throttle opening range to otain maximum eninge power
B-mode provides softer throttle response than A-mode at all throttle opening range
C-mode provides softer throttle response than B-mode at all throttle opening range
http://www.gixxer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225264

In Germany they sell kits to go down to at least 48 hp, so the beginners can start with a GSX-R600 Suki.

[choneofakind]

See the issue with that is I want throttle response but not 120 hp. So I want the throttle percentage map adjusted, not the throttle ramp in.

[mania]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

See the issue with that is I want throttle response but not 120 hp. So I want the throttle percentage map adjusted, not the throttle ramp in.

I think it ( throttle response ) will always point back to power to weight

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by Somchai

Gixxer Mode A, B, C
From the manual it explains
A-mode provides sharp throttle response at all the throttle opening range to otain maximum eninge power
B-mode provides softer throttle response than A-mode at all throttle opening range
C-mode provides softer throttle response than B-mode at all throttle opening range
http://www.gixxer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225264

In Germany they sell kits to go down to at least 48 hp, so the beginners can start with a GSX-R600 Suki.

No, they can't. Safety nazis don't let you restrict anything by >=50% of it's quoted power.
It used be restrict anything to 33 & it was legal, now it's
learner gets a 125
A1) test, 2 years 125 <11 (or 15) bhp,
A2) test on a 400-600, any capacity that's <47bhp (as long as the original power wasn't over 94bhp) 2 years,
A) test on a 650+ with (I think >60bhp) & you're good to go.

You can skip the A1 if you're 20, or the A2 if you're 24.

This is from the same people who tried to ban bikes because they didn't fit with their 'vision zero' plan to remove all road deaths in a population of over a billion people. "they're dangerous and we know better than you because we cook the statistics, if you don't like it tough nobody elects us"

their new way of doing it is to make it so expensive & full of red tape that people don't take it up.

That's why I think tiered licencing is a load of bollox

[Somchai]

@Whiskey, I only have one question to you: How good is your knowledge of the german language?

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by mania

I think it ( throttle response ) will always point back to power to weight

Sort of.

I'm talking ramp-in, as in how the ECU reacts to an input (in this case, the throttle position sensor). If it were an instant signal, it's called a step input. If it's a gradual ramp-up to to the signal amplitude, it's called a ramp-in. There's tables in the ecu telling it how steep the slope of this ramp-in is based on engine rpm. They have to find the right balance between slow response to make the engine smooth during throttle changes and fast response so that the engine responds very quickly (like we expect and demand out of a sport bike during downshifts) to blips.

I'm not talking about overall vehicle acceleration during a roll-on, I'm talking about how the ecu responds to the input (electrical signal) from the throttle sensor. That's how they dull down bikes for different throttle maps. The manufacturer decides how neutered their low map has to be, then they figure out how steep the ramp-in is and how much % of 'actual' throttle should be given to the engine when there is x % of 'rider' throttle requested. This limits both peak power and throttle response, without adjusting the fuel mixture. Remember that all new bikes are drive by wire. It's all control systems now.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by Somchai

@Whiskey, I only have one question to you: How good is your knowledge of the german language?

A few words, but seen as it's the EU's Third Driver's Licencing Directive which must be implemented across the 27 EU states & has diddly **** all wiggle room I don't need to know german, its the same law in German, Greek, Gaeilge & English.

The only place it's in any way different is France, where there is a national law limiting ALL bikes maximum horsepower.

[mania]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Sort of.

I'm talking ramp-in, as in how the ECU reacts to an input (in this case, the throttle position sensor). If it were an instant signal, it's called a step input. If it's a gradual ramp-up to to the signal amplitude, it's called a ramp-in. There's tables in the ecu telling it how steep the slope of this ramp-in is based on engine rpm. They have to find the right balance between slow response to make the engine smooth during throttle changes and fast response so that the engine responds very quickly (like we expect and demand out of a sport bike during downshifts) to blips.

I'm not talking about overall vehicle acceleration during a roll-on, I'm talking about how the ecu responds to the input (electrical signal) from the throttle sensor. That's how they dull down bikes for different throttle maps. The manufacturer decides how neutered their low map has to be, then they figure out how steep the ramp-in is and how much % of 'actual' throttle should be given to the engine when there is x % of 'rider' throttle requested. This limits both peak power and throttle response, without adjusting the fuel mixture. Remember that all new bikes are drive by wire. It's all control systems now.

That is interesting. I didn't know that. So you say this is a separate map & not the fuel map? This is not on the Ninja 250/300 is it?

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by mania

That is interesting. I didn't know that. So you say this is a separate map & not the fuel map? This is not on the Ninja 250/300 is it?

250, no. It's carbureted. The engine response is a function of various physical parts in the carbs. There is no computerized control system there.


This is just how an engine is controlled by a fuel injection system... There's tables for every parameter and equations relating all the tables. The ECU just follows the numbers based on the rider inputs and conditions. There's tables for ramp-in, rider input (throttle), volumetric efficiency, load, incoming air temp, engine temp, engine speed, air density, crank position, etc etc.

[mania]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

250, no. It's carbureted. The engine response is a function of various physical parts in the carbs. There is no computerized control system there.


This is just how an engine is controlled by a fuel injection system... There's tables for every parameter and equations relating all the tables. The ECU just follows the numbers based on the rider inputs and conditions. There's tables for ramp-in, rider input (throttle), volumetric efficiency, load, incoming air temp, engine temp, engine speed, air density, crank position, etc etc.

There are quite a few FI 250's including my 2013
What was Euro/ Asia starting using 250 FI years? 2011?
I am not sure but I know as far back as 2011 for sure

I was curious because I play a lot with maps values on mine.
I can adjust values separation from as little as 250rpm but usually use 500 rpm separation between values/changes
These maps are of course the fuel maps but rely on the throttle sensor for input.
I can tune for excellent crisp throttle response which I do but for me the trick is always adding a bit more fuel to achieve strong mid range without losing that crisp response which of course leaner always provides

What is also interesting to me is studying all the maps from various after marker guys like Two Bro, Power Commander, Area p etc.
They all seem to prefer overall leaner than stock settings in many spots of throttle % openings the one exception being FuelMoto whose map is quite rich but runs very strong pull wise & is not blubbery in the throttle response at all. Kind of has me scratching my head

My problem is no dyno so it is a slow process where I usually load 2 altered maps & one zero map.
That way when I test I can reset my brain/feel for the bike by reverting to stock between trying various maps.
Fun to do & interesting to note the results