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Old June 10th, 2009, 02:35 PM   #41
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the problem is cost. the european and asian markets for small displacement bikes are large enough for them to get away with the extra cost of the FI. american's aren't willing to pay the extra cash for the FI for a 250 when they can just get an R6 or something... its just a different mindset between american's and other parts of the world.
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Old June 10th, 2009, 02:45 PM   #42
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the problem is cost. the european and asian markets for small displacement bikes are large enough for them to get away with the extra cost of the FI. american's aren't willing to pay the extra cash for the FI for a 250 when they can just get an R6 or something... its just a different mindset between american's and other parts of the world.
The R6 is still quite a bit more expensive, I can't imagine it would add that much. I also can't understand why two complex metal structures are somehow cheaper than a plastic ECU + injectors + sensors
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Old June 10th, 2009, 02:54 PM   #43
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i don't understand why it raises the price either... but from what i understand it comes down to pricepoint. american's in general aren't willing to pay that much for a 250... a "throwaway bike" ... other countries have different attitudes about small displacement bikes.

i hope the success of the new 250 might change some misconceptions about what americans think
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Old June 11th, 2009, 05:33 AM   #44
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I also can't understand why two complex metal structures are somehow cheaper than a plastic ECU + injectors + sensors
Well, you said it right there; the electronics. Electronics are expensive! The ECU and sensors are not plastic, but are covered it plastic. There is a lot of work that goes into designing computers and computer systems.

Also, this is comparing something from the 1880's to something almost all cars didnt have until 100 years later.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 04:38 AM   #45
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im hoping that they give us the choice of having the classic all lime green bike. I am also hoping that they put some green powder coated wheels into stock as a choice for like 100 dollars more. Also, make the bike more comfortable for taller people like myself. Make an option for lowering seat pegs for longer legs. Then i would praise it.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 05:02 AM   #46
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Well, you said it right there; the electronics. Electronics are expensive! The ECU and sensors are not plastic, but are covered it plastic. There is a lot of work that goes into designing computers and computer systems.
You said it right there, it's the design that's the expensive part. AFAIK it's less expensive to mass-produce electronics than it is to build complex machinery.

The thing about electronics is that, unlike many mechanical devices, there can be great commonality. In principle you can take one ECU and simply reprogram it for a different purpose. That's much, much less expensive than engineering a new one from scratch.

Also, Kawasaki has already GOT one for the non-US 250s.

Which brings the question back around... why have two separate production flows? Why have two separate parts supply chains? All that adds to production costs.


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Also, this is comparing something from the 1880's to something almost all cars didnt have until 100 years later.
I don't follow your reasoning here. If the technology is available and it makes economic sense, then it should certainly go on the new machine right away.

It all comes down to money. As long as the bike with carbs is more profitable for them in the US market, the 250 will have carbs.

The fact that there's zero competition for the bike here means that they're unlikely to change anything, because change costs. If we had an arms race like the perpetual 600-class wars, we'd see lots of changes every year, just as happens with the bigger bikes.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 06:05 AM   #47
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You said it right there, it's the design that's the expensive part. AFAIK it's less expensive to mass-produce electronics than it is to build complex machinery.

The thing about electronics is that, unlike many mechanical devices, there can be great commonality. In principle you can take one ECU and simply reprogram it for a different purpose. That's much, much less expensive than engineering a new one from scratch.
Making a production line for electronics is very expensive. Some of the robotics used are millions of dollars, and photolithography needs to take place in a very, very controlled and clean environment. However, if Kawasaki is already making their own electronics they would already have a production line built, but my guess is that they dont make their own. If they didnt make their own they could either contract a company to make an ASIC or buy something similar to an FPGA and program it themselves.

But all of the above really shouldnt matter because if it is less expensive to produce electronics than machinery, then wouldn't it make sense for Kawasaki to put the ECU from the euro bikes in the US models? They must be saving some money by keeping ours carbed.


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Also, Kawasaki has already GOT one for the non-US 250s.

Which brings the question back around... why have two separate production flows? Why have two separate parts supply chains? All that adds to production costs.
True, it does seem like having the two separate production flows would be more expensive. I guess this just shows that an ECU (along with all other components for an FI bike) must be expensive. I wouldnt have thought it would be cheaper to do it the way kawasaki is.


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I don't follow your reasoning here. If the technology is available and it makes economic sense, then it should certainly go on the new machine right away.

It all comes down to money. As long as the bike with carbs is more profitable for them in the US market, the 250 will have carbs.
Thats basically what I was getting at... I was assuming that a FI system, being 100 years newer than carburetors, would be more expensive and therefore not as economically sensible.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 06:45 AM   #48
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Making a production line for electronics is very expensive. Some of the robotics used are millions of dollars, and photolithography needs to take place in a very, very controlled and clean environment. However, if Kawasaki is already making their own electronics they would already have a production line built, but my guess is that they dont make their own. If they didnt make their own they could either contract a company to make an ASIC or buy something similar to an FPGA and program it themselves.

Either way, the production line HAS been built. That's precisely the point. Whether it's Kawasaki or somebody else making the ECUs, they've already been developed and are already in production.

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But all of the above really shouldnt matter because if it is less expensive to produce electronics than machinery, then wouldn't it make sense for Kawasaki to put the ECU from the euro bikes in the US models? They must be saving some money by keeping ours carbed.
I agree.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 02:12 PM   #49
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1. I would hope better stock tires(or at least tires that you can get aftermarket someplace other than the dealer)
2. A final and lasting fix for the CDI issue
3. Better quality control to solve the fuel gauge sender issue
4. A temp gauge with a useable scale
5. Dealer prep that actually included torque checking things like the front/rear axle bolts (always too tight) or things like the shift lever and shift arm (always too loose)
6. Mirror stems that are just 1 inch longer

I wouldn't bet the farm or retirement account on any of those happening.

What I would bet on, though, is their assinine pursuit of putting more and more stickers on the bikes in successive model years.
More stickers brought up one of my gripes. Bought an 8` stepladder recently and the darn thing had 11 warning stickers on it! I wrote the company and suggested that they put a sticker on the top step that says,"You have reached the top. Please stop climbing"
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Old August 11th, 2009, 02:42 PM   #50
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The only way the '09 had more stickers than the '08 is if you are comparing the SE to the Kawi Green. Otherwise, you're probably noticing one of the differences between CA models and 49-staters (there's one on the fuel tank). The stickers had changes... the '09 CT Blue had a gray "Ninja" decal on each side of the tank while the '08 CP Blue had white, but that's neither more nor less.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 07:23 PM   #51
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So, has anyone heard a date of release yet?
My local dealer isn't even sure...
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Old August 11th, 2009, 07:29 PM   #52
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A lower price would be nice. I'll deal with the carb so long as they chop down the price a bit. A new 250r up here in Canada costs $5700 OTD. Gimme a freakin' break!!
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Old August 13th, 2009, 12:50 AM   #53
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I was at the dealer today talking about the 2010.. They said a photo of the model will be released to view on website in Sept/Oct 09 sometime and will be avail for purchase in Feb. or March. they said the only diff to the bike is more color variety and higher price.
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Old August 13th, 2009, 01:35 AM   #54
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Higher price!!!! they are going to kill the magic, I just know it... someone is asleep at the wheel, did they let GM or the government take over? Yeah, I knoe they couldn't keep them on the shelves in 08 (not so much 09), but did they notice that other than the 08 anomoly, bikes aren't selling (or cars, or houses....)?
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Old August 13th, 2009, 07:27 PM   #55
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what the hell, are they going to raise the price every year ?
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Old August 13th, 2009, 07:28 PM   #56
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what the hell, are they going to raise the price every year ?
As long as demand stays high... yes.
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Old August 13th, 2009, 07:30 PM   #57
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I was at the dealer today talking about the 2010.. They said a photo of the model will be released to view on website in Sept/Oct 09 sometime and will be avail for purchase in Feb. or March. they said the only diff to the bike is more color variety and higher price.
LOL that's the opposite of what I wanted to happen!

Seriously, if they wanted to attract newer riders to the 250 they're not gonna do it by raising the price. They're gonna push a lot of people to either the CBR125 or the older, later model 600cc supersports.
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Old August 13th, 2009, 07:37 PM   #58
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well im glad I got mine cheap ($3100 for a 2008 with 78 miles and two bros exhaust). If I looked at the prices and the 250 was dangerously close to the 650, I would take the 650 everyday and im sure others will too. In fact I was looking at the used 650's because they can be had for 4-5k for a clean one while the used 250's were being listed for 3.5k+
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Old August 14th, 2009, 05:19 AM   #59
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As long as demand stays high... yes.
...and demand has stayed consistenly high for Kawi on the 250. It's well known in the industry as one of the only models that sells out it's full production each year, and has done so since it's introduction.
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Old August 15th, 2009, 11:37 PM   #60
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LOL that's the opposite of what I wanted to happen!

Seriously, if they wanted to attract newer riders to the 250 they're not gonna do it by raising the price. They're gonna push a lot of people to either the CBR125 or the older, later model 600cc supersports.
Like every other non-Canadian corporation, they probably don't even THINK about Canada.

Fortunately for them, most markets don't have a 250cc competitor, much less, a 125cc one.
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Old August 16th, 2009, 04:00 PM   #61
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Higher price might be dealer lie to sell 2009 stock.
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Old August 16th, 2009, 04:04 PM   #62
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Higher price might be dealer lie to sell 2009 stock.
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dealers lie??? I'm shocked!!
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Old August 16th, 2009, 07:49 PM   #63
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dealers lie??? I'm shocked!!
Gotta tell ya though, my dealer is a friend, and he and his Dad were enthusiasts who did it all, street riding, enduro, mx, road racing, trials., and sales people second He has a warehouse full of bikes he collected that some dealers today wouldn't know what they heck they are (Yankee, Velocette, bevel Ducs, CB750K, CB400F, Rokon, Triumph, BSA, Bultaco, to name a few). I trust him no questions asked, other dealers - whew no way.

Matter of fact just the other day he looked at my 250 and said people don't realize this bike is all they need. Though his personal daily ride is a Honda GB500 single.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 01:25 AM   #64
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You will get new stickers/colors and a price increase for years to come nothing more.
The japanese are good at this.
If this bike were in a highly competitive market segment you might get an updated model
every few years but it is not.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 01:59 PM   #65
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Any news on the new colors or anything else?
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Old September 7th, 2009, 05:22 PM   #66
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I saw pics of the 2010 650r, and was absolutely shocked to see they added ABS.... and only one year after a major change! The pics where a foreign version, and I don't know if it will be done to the US version.... if it does, I would be scarred of how much they plan to jack the price.

I know we are talking about the 250r here, but since the 650r is the "big brother," many 250r riders (including self) tend to also take an interest in this bike.

I haven't seen or heard anything about the 2010 250r though.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 06:02 PM   #67
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Here is a green one, I like it!!
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Old September 7th, 2009, 06:04 PM   #68
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Here is a green one, I like it!!
Yes, I really like the green for 2010...
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Old September 7th, 2009, 07:12 PM   #69
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Here is a green one, I like it!!
Isn't this a 650R?
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Old September 7th, 2009, 07:16 PM   #70
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It could definitely be for cost reasons. FI models exist because emission laws require them to. Just because the production line exists doesn't make it suddenly cheap and economical to produce FI engines for ALL bikes sold in the world. Scaling production up still takes money and makes the end product more expensive. Americans and Europeans won't necessarily willingly pay the same amount of money for the same product.

I'm sure there's a production-cost/revenue graph for each bike model produced that shows where the break even point for the cost of manufacturing a bike vs the retail price is. There's got to be a reason (other than demand) the Ninja 250R is MSRP'd at $4000 while the 650R with FI and a few more bells and whistles goes for $6800, a small price difference if you ask me, for an extra 40 horsepower or so. If the Ninja 250 cost any more, no one would buy it, and Kawasaki would sell one less model of bike.

My argument is that building a fuel injected engine costs more than a carb'd engine, but building a 60 hp engine probably doesn't take a lot more in terms of materials and labor than building a 25 hp engine. The bikes are each built to fulfill a specific demand, not be the pinnacle of technological practicality. For the statistical American consumer, perhaps the price of FI in a 600 cc bike is worth the extra investment, but not in a 250 cc bike.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 06:38 AM   #71
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If they jack the 250 up any more they certainly won't sell many, at the $4000 it is starting to get into the range of other "starter" class bikes. They would need to really give the enthusiasts something good to keep them coming back if the price was higher. Need to have the same fully adjustable suspension as the bigger machines, better tires, all that stuff since you are getting close to paying for the bigger machine with the higher price. I think the $4000/$4100 MSRP coupled with the rat dealers adding who knows how much more on top of that are really running the desire for this model into the ground. People report paying $5000 after set up, shipping, dealer extortion, etc. and that is just crazy for a 250 class motorcycle.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 09:40 AM   #72
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i believe MCN writes that the EU FI nina 250 r retails for US equivalent of $6830...
www.mcnews.com/mcn/features/200806ninja.pdf
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Old September 8th, 2009, 09:58 AM   #73
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welcome to the board, Sergio.

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Old September 8th, 2009, 10:05 AM   #74
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thank you...i'm waiting for the 2010 to come out to purchase my ninja as the dealer would not come off MSRP on the '09...might as well wait a few months and get the newer one and meanwhile save up some dough...
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Old September 8th, 2009, 02:32 PM   #75
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Sergio - don't forget about the 08 and 09 models, you can probably pick one up at a rather reasonable price now
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Old September 8th, 2009, 02:50 PM   #76
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i believe MCN writes that the EU FI nina 250 r retails for US equivalent of $6830...
www.mcnews.com/mcn/features/200806ninja.pdf
My dealer has multiple '09 ZX-6Rs for $7699 each! Who wouldn't buy a 6R, if the 250 was $6800?

650R is $5699

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Old September 8th, 2009, 04:03 PM   #77
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that's probably the reason they won't introduce the FI model to the states for 2010...myself, i would rather buy the ninja 650r...
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Old September 9th, 2009, 12:43 AM   #78
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Here is a green one, I like it!!
Yes, I really like the green for 2010...
The only thing it's missing is the green cowl-line seat cover that was stock on the older one. As usual, the US model probably won't have the grab-bars or the Euro "ER6f" model.
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Old September 9th, 2009, 01:11 AM   #79
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I don't think the cowl was stock. Remember there were picks of the 250r with the cowl in advert pics as well. Personally I always thought that was misleading, but then again, they usually show the fully-loaded cars in adverts.
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Old September 9th, 2009, 05:22 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by headshrink View Post
I don't think the cowl was stock. Remember there were picks of the 250r with the cowl in advert pics as well. Personally I always thought that was misleading, but then again, they usually show the fully-loaded cars in adverts.
It's not actually a cowl. The 07 or possibly 08 650r came with a dual color seat where the back portion of the seat was color matched to the bike to give the appearance of a cowl.
I think that is the only thing missing on the 09s atm, that seat makes the bike look MUCH better to me.
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