Zzr 250 turbo- advice

[zedzedR]

Hello all,

I was wondering if anybody could advise me of a small turbo kit that I would be able to install on my zzr250. I love my bike, the size and weight are perfect for me. I just wish it had a bit more power for highway commuting. I am thinking about installing a small turbocharger which would boost it up to approximate 50hp. Ive already installed a full muzzy, stage 3 114 jets, and k&n pods.
I plan to start the project in 2014 but want to begin budgeting for it from now. I don't want to go the 600 route since, like i said, I like te size/ weight/ and insurance costs of my bike.
Any constructive advice would be appreciated.

Sincerely,
Ibrahim

[Joshorilla]

Originally Posted by zedzedR

Hello all,

I was wondering if anybody could advise me of a small turbo kit that I would be able to install on my zzr250. I love my bike, the size and weight are perfect for me. I just wish it had a bit more power for highway commuting. I am thinking about installing a small turbocharger which would boost it up to approximate 50hp. Ive already installed a full muzzy, stage 3 114 jets, and k&n pods.
I plan to start the project in 2014 but want to begin budgeting for it from now. I don't want to go the 600 route since, like i said, I like te size/ weight/ and insurance costs of my bike.
Any constructive advice would be appreciated.

Sincerely,
Ibrahim

It's VERY ambitious to untake these mods, but assuming you have the capital to spend and the time to take, you'll need to upgrade to EFI using an ecotrons kit, then you'll need to wait for the chappy on here from india to release his turbo kit, you'll want to get a two to one header and a decent can, and a decent air filter and a few hours on a dyno to get it all sorted. I think 40 / 45 hp would be ambitious.

And it'll run you about $3000

[Firehorse]

Hmm, that's what I was looking for but mine has carbs :-(

[Z-Trob]

I've seen it done, well... attempted a few times. it can work... for a little at least. you'll need lower compression(head gaskets/dished pistons), stronger clutch (springs and plates), stronger internals (as in crank and rods = big $$$). and that's just preparing the engine for boost.
you can definitely turbo charge carbs. people turbo carbs all the time... on other bikes. it requires equalizing the pressure in the carb bowl with the boost being pumped through the carb. is it possible with these carbs? that i don't know. EFI could make you're life easier, but that's if you already know how to program a fuel system that runs boost...

i have only read and seen 2 ninja 250 turbos done to completion and running. one was done in some eastern country where it kinda makes sense as larger cc's cost very large $$'s there. i don't know what became of this bike, but it looked like they invested some real money into it so its possible it ran for a month or two lol.
The other, done in the US was on the cheap, and it ran slipping the clutch around 8k rpm and got to like 40ish hp with said clutch. after a few good rides in the higher rpms the motor blew itself apart. you will be riding a bomb. not saying it cant be done, it has been done, but the high chance of failure EVEN IF its done right is a big gamble. And doing it right in this case means starting with the engine cases and working from there essentially. actually you'll want stronger head bolts for those too.

a "turbo kit" producing anything more than around 5-8 hp would require more than just bolt-ons.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

It's VERY ambitious to untake these mods, but assuming you have the capital to spend and the time to take, you'll need to upgrade to EFI using an ecotrons kit, then you'll need to wait for the chappy on here from india to release his turbo kit, you'll want to get a two to one header and a decent can, and a decent air filter and a few hours on a dyno to get it all sorted. I think 40 / 45 hp would be ambitious.

And it'll run you about $3000

Ecotrons has turbos! Hop to it!

[Joshorilla]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Ecotrons has turbos! Hop to it!

That they do! Good thinking batman!

http://www.ecotrons.com/Small_Engine...bocharger.html

http://www.ecotrons.com/Small_Engine...o_PNP_kit.html

[Z-Trob]

thats interesting! well i stand corrected on the fuel part. according to ecotronics it may be easy after all. i wonder how much you would get out of it. nice and small so it'll spool pretty quickly. i just really don't know how comfortable id feel about stepping over a stock motor/boosted 250.

[Joshorilla]

It's also worth mentioning that a turbo for an engine that already performs poorly at low rpm you will actually see LESS power at lower RPM's

My guess would be between 1k and 6k you'll see a lot less power, you could reduce the boost and see more power at lower RPM's but ultimately you'll get less HP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger#Turbo_lag

[Joshorilla]

Having spent the last ten minutes researching forced induction for small engines and it seems you can take a "smog pump" which is a belt driven air pump installed in cars to blow air into the exhaust to burn off un-burnt fuel, apparently standard on cars in the USA for over twenty years? You hook this up via belt drive and it's essentially a supercharger.

I am a sceptic but it looks promising.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[zedzedR]

Thank you all for your informative replies. I definitely don't want to be riding a time bomb so maybe a turbo will not be the wisest choice for an everyday commuter.

[mgithens]

you don't necessarily have to upgrade the internals... there's a great book called "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell. He shows that the stress created on the connecting rods (the typical weak link) DOUBLES when adding 1000rpm, but boost in the 6 to 7psi adds less than 50% more stress. So what he is basically saying is that moving the redline down 500 to 1000rpm will take care of the internal stress.

You will need to lower the compression because these bikes are like 13:1.

Search youtube, there are some videos from Malaysia (I think) where they put a kit on a newgen and got something like 80hp out of it.

[aeroblade]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

Having spent the last ten minutes researching forced induction for small engines and it seems you can take a "smog pump" which is a belt driven air pump installed in cars to blow air into the exhaust to burn off un-burnt fuel, apparently standard on cars in the USA for over twenty years? You hook this up via belt drive and it's essentially a supercharger.

I am a sceptic but it looks promising.

Link to original page on YouTube.

That is an interesting find and I'm not expert but I suspect you'd get any significant performance gains with that considering the fact that it is a smog pump attached to a small engine that has to power it up to begin with, won't it like cancel out whatever boost it does produce? Do correct me if i'm wrong, just curious...

[psych0hans]

Ninja 500?

[Joshorilla]

Originally Posted by aeroblade

That is an interesting find and I'm not expert but I suspect you'd get any significant performance gains with that considering the fact that it is a smog pump attached to a small engine that has to power it up to begin with, won't it like cancel out whatever boost it does produce? Do correct me if i'm wrong, just curious...

It won't cancel it out, while it sounds like "free energy" it's exactly how a supercharger or "blower" works, a very well tested piece of kit, side note, their is interesting read to be had between turbos and blowers used by the nazis and british on war planes and the effect of the two at altitude.

Sure it robs a little energy off the engine to power the compressor, it's less than the power gained by the extra fuel and air your engine wil bel forced.

[psych0hans]

http://s7.photobucket.com/user/ccott...itled.flv.html

[aeroblade]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

It won't cancel it out, while it sounds like "free energy" it's exactly how a supercharger or "blower" work, a very well tested piece of kit, interesting read to be had between turbos and blowers used by the nazis and british on war planes and the effect of the two at altitude.

Sure it robs a little energy off the engine to power the compressor, it's less than the power gained by the extra fuel and air your engine wil bel forced.

Well I'd be a monkey's uncle!

recycled smog superchargers..

[mgithens]

aeroblade...

turbos cause MAJOR backpressure to the exhaust, so much so that the Dodge Neon SRT4 didn't actually have a muffler!! This is a HUGE drain on the engine, BUT it works because of the "net gain". A water pump eats energy too, but allows the engine to run hotter therefore making more power than what you could do with an aircooled engine.

the power increase comes from having more air (and fuel) forced into the cylinder... so for a given setup, let's say a 30hp 250cc motorcycle engine, for every 1psi of boost you add, you will get 30hp * 1psi/14.7 more power... about a 7% gain - roughly 2hp. So as long as the energy to make that power is less than the hp gain, you win!!

so if you wanted to get to 50hp from a 30hp engine, you would need right about 9.8psi of boost... the downside is heat, somewhere in the 5 to 6psi range you start having intake temps hitting the 200deg mark, this will cause detonation, so you have to cool it - this is where intercooling comes into play. So a very complex system, a slight decrease in MPG, and a good sum of $$$... or you can go pick up a 500!!

[Joshorilla]

The back pressure on the exhaust is proportional to the "size" of the turbo charger, as a rule of thumb the smaller the turbo the less back pressure the lower the boost at a lower rpm.

The larger the turbo the bigger the boost the greater the lag the more back pressure at lower rpm and higer power at greater rpm.

You can get sequential turbos that use the smaller one for lower boost and the larger kicks in at the top end, but that's going to be too large of a setup for a ninja I fear.

A supercharger will give a linear boost with a cleaner, friendlier delivery.

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

The back pressure on the exhaust is proportional to the "size" of the turbo charger, as a rule of thumb the smaller the turbo the less back pressure the lower the boost at a lower rpm.

The larger the turbo the bigger the boost the greater the lag the more back pressure at lower rpm and higer power at greater rpm.

You can get sequential turbos that use the smaller one for lower boost and the larger kicks in at the top end, but that's going to be too large of a setup for a ninja I fear.

A supercharger will give a linear boost with a cleaner, friendlier delivery.

You just need to run a belt. That is a complicated bit.

People have used smog pumps to super charge scooters for years, It works great from what I hear.

[aeroblade]

Originally Posted by mgithens

aeroblade...

turbos cause MAJOR backpressure to the exhaust, so much so that the Dodge Neon SRT4 didn't actually have a muffler!! This is a HUGE drain on the engine, BUT it works because of the "net gain". A water pump eats energy too, but allows the engine to run hotter therefore making more power than what you could do with an aircooled engine.

the power increase comes from having more air (and fuel) forced into the cylinder... so for a given setup, let's say a 30hp 250cc motorcycle engine, for every 1psi of boost you add, you will get 30hp * 1psi/14.7 more power... about a 7% gain - roughly 2hp. So as long as the energy to make that power is less than the hp gain, you win!!

so if you wanted to get to 50hp from a 30hp engine, you would need right about 9.8psi of boost... the downside is heat, somewhere in the 5 to 6psi range you start having intake temps hitting the 200deg mark, this will cause detonation, so you have to cool it - this is where intercooling comes into play. So a very complex system, a slight decrease in MPG, and a good sum of $$$... or you can go pick up a 500!!

Well I'm wondering how long an engine would last with such an elaborate set up. Trying to fit the turbo, cold air intakes etc into such a small space doesn't really inspire me with much confidence even though there are those who have already done it. Certainly makes more sense to go super. The only draw back I've heard with the supercharger once you get all the specs cleared, was in the amount of fuel consumption but with an advantage of providing about 60% output form like 40% input.

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

The back pressure on the exhaust is proportional to the "size" of the turbo charger, as a rule of thumb the smaller the turbo the less back pressure the lower the boost at a lower rpm.

The larger the turbo the bigger the boost the greater the lag the more back pressure at lower rpm and higer power at greater rpm.

You can get sequential turbos that use the smaller one for lower boost and the larger kicks in at the top end, but that's going to be too large of a setup for a ninja I fear.

A supercharger will give a linear boost with a cleaner, friendlier delivery.

Or a turbo supercharger setup which would be lot less bulkier than two turbos, with a fat @$$ Inter cooler just to be safe :P

[Joshorilla]

A turbo / supercharger combo sounds nice, but their is a good reason they aren't as popular!

Like Racer x said, hooking up a blower to your engine would be the challange. A small turbo like some indian chap that posts here is developing would be the easiest / cheapest way.

[psych0hans]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

A turbo / supercharger combo sounds nice, but their is a good reason they aren't as popular!

Like Racer x said, hooking up a blower to your engine would be the challange. A small turbo like some Indonesian chap that posts here is developing would be the easiest / cheapest way.

FTFY

[Joshorilla]

Originally Posted by psych0hans

FTFY

My bad!

I shall from now on refer to you all as former colonials to avoid confusion, I can then seperate into cricket and not cricket playing countries.

[Racer x]

Given the choice, and I have one. I would go for the turbo. The belt, If you can make an out drive for it. Will cause parasitic drag. That will waste horse power. With the turbo there is no such waiste. Back pressure is not an issue. We are dealing with a 30 hp engine. Loosing 20% to the pump is tough to make up.