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Old March 4th, 2016, 07:09 AM   #41
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I did not realize this. But it is possible to remove the engine from the 250 Ninja without draining the cooling system.
This engine and radiator and hoses have been in and out of three bikes with out spilling a drop. I did not even drain the oil.

It took me less than fifteen minutes to remove the whole thing after the fairings are off.
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Old March 4th, 2016, 08:36 AM   #42
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RacerX, what class will you run in ? As if 282cc then no longer 250cc !

Was that max speed on your signature set on a 250cc Ninja, or a bigger one ?
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Old March 4th, 2016, 08:52 AM   #43
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I run the 350 class.
Actually ,modified partial streamliner/fuel -350cc four stroke. In September I will be back in the 250 class with my new engine.

My top speed was set with a 265cc engine.
The thing is ,the most powerful engine I ever built was a 250cc. The 265 only had more midrange.

This is a link to the home page.
http://ecta-lsr.com
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Old March 4th, 2016, 09:17 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohawk View Post
RacerX, what class will you run in ? As if 282cc then no longer 250cc !

Was that max speed on your signature set on a 250cc Ninja, or a bigger one ?
Your question bring up a point I have been meaning to address. So thank you and I will do it now.
I began my quest to be the fastest 250 ninja in 2008. That was in Maxton North Carolina. The Monster Mile.
I battled back and forth with a number of teams. My top speed there was 121. Another team went 122 a month later.
In 2011 the track in Maxton Closed. I did not know we would get a new track. So I built the Orange bike. It is a replica of a Harly Davison 250rr.

We opened the track at Wilmington Ohio in 2012. There I went 123 to get the title.
The other nitrous systems I used did a lot of damage to my engines. I had to bore them out to repair the cylinders. So I went to 265cc but that engine is not the best engine.
After seven seasons of evolution the orange bike to me is not a 250 ninja. First of all it is not a 250cc engine. There is not one part on that bike that has not been modified. It is a cool bike and everyone likes it. But I don't think it is a 250 ninja.
So a big motivation for Project X is to go back to the beginning. Project X is all 250 ninja. It uses a bone stock frame and while it is modified. It is not so far from stock that I feel it is somthing else ( if that makes sense?).
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Old March 4th, 2016, 09:19 AM   #45
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Cool One thing I envy about the US is that here in the UK, there are NO LSR areas. So the UKLSA used few military runways, but now that has been reduced to one or two on occasion. None near where I live.

I plan to do some drag racing this year, so will have to sort out a trailer for transport & see how it goes, if I can get a descent tune, I might have a go at LSR but just for me
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Old March 4th, 2016, 09:27 AM   #46
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All makes perfect sense to me People ask why mess with a 250 when I have a very modified 800, but they are just fun I bought the ZZR250 with the intention of making a super mono, but I could not find a donor bike at a reasonable price, so used the 250 as a winter bike, but the more I rode it the more I liked it.

So this time its had the winter off whilst I worked on it. The cycle parts are all good now, so when the weather warms up I'll get round to doing the big bore to 282cc with Big Airbox & see how it goes

Good luck with your LSR this year.
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Old March 4th, 2016, 10:22 AM   #47
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My top speed was set with a 265cc engine.
The thing is ,the most powerful engine I ever built was a 250cc. The 265 only had more midrange.
why do you think this is?
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Old March 4th, 2016, 10:54 AM   #48
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Fuel, compression mostly.
I had 13 to1 pistons, plus .010 cut off the block top. That head was stock so my cranking compression was 220 psi.
I used 114 octane fuel and tuned it on the dyno. I kept adding timing and fuel.
With stock carbs and 117 main jets I was at 33-34 hp.
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Old March 4th, 2016, 11:59 AM   #49
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Too much compression? I have 13.5 to 1 and she is still lively with 91 octane.
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Old March 4th, 2016, 12:25 PM   #50
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44 deg of timing and it crackled in first gear
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Old March 5th, 2016, 01:01 AM   #51
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Static compression is no indication of dynamic compression ratio. The valve duration & overlap, please intake air velocity, determine the dynamic compression ratio. Which is typically around 10-11/1 for a bike running on low octane unleaded fuel. For one running on higher octane then 11.5-12.5/1 is a useful working range, above that you need Very high octane race fuel or delayed ignition to avoid knock.

To explain dynamic compression image a 12/1 static compression engine, if you took the cams & spark plug out then set the cylinder to BDC & inserted the spark plug when you turned he engine to TDC you'd have 12/1 compression, on air !
But if you turned a stock engine over slowly on the induction stroke at BDC you would have the intake valve open, say for 70degrres ABDC (original ex250-H1) so for nearly half the compression stroke the intake valve is open, if we say 1/3 the piston travel, then at slow revs the dynamic compression ration will be around 8.5/1 which is the reason that there is no bottom end !

As rpms in crease & the intake air velocity increases, this delayed closing of the inlet valve allows the air which is now ravelling in through the throttle bodily to force its way into the cylinder & as air is compressible its own mass keeps it combining in. The trick is to close the valve at just the right time for the rpm you want peak torque to occur. ICE engines can reach 110% intake efficiency, meaning there is 1.1 bar of pressure in the cylinder when the valve closes.

This is why you will find all static high compression engines have quite long valve durations & usually a good sized overlap ! The original x250-h1 had 12/1 compression, but 280 degree duration cams, putting dynamic compression around 11/1 which is a good number for standard unleaded fuel.

The timing of the valve closing events determine at what RPM the engine will be most efficient. For a road bike peak efficiency at peak revs is not needed, as they rarely spend much time there, especially as the displacement increases, they become to fast or unrideable. But in smaller engines that can't create enough power to worry you when riding it, then the higher in the rpm your reach peak efficiency the more peak power you will make & they spend more time there ! Peak HP normally follows peak torque by 1500-2000rpm regardless of the bike engine size.

The original ex250 had peak torque around 10,800 rpm, with peak power around 12,600 rpm, with 1400rpm over rev, which is a flexible zone that allows you to manipulate speed in all but the top gears when in that rpm range. This is useful on a road bike but would mean peak torque is to low on a race or LSR engine.

YMMV
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Old March 5th, 2016, 01:26 AM   #52
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Eric I enjoy to look at the details of how you're doing it and I'm confident you'll figure out everything.
Good luck
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Old March 5th, 2016, 01:30 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Mohawk View Post
Static compression is no indication of dynamic compression ratio. The valve duration & overlap, please intake air velocity, determine the dynamic compression ratio. Which is typically around 10-11/1 for a bike running on low octane unleaded fuel. For one running on higher octane then 11.5-12.5/1 is a useful working range, above that you need Very high octane race fuel or delayed ignition to avoid knock.

To explain dynamic compression image a 12/1 static compression engine, if you took the cams & spark plug out then set the cylinder to BDC & inserted the spark plug when you turned he engine to TDC you'd have 12/1 compression, on air !
But if you turned a stock engine over slowly on the induction stroke at BDC you would have the intake valve open, say for 70degrres ABDC (original ex250-H1) so for nearly half the compression stroke the intake valve is open, if we say 1/3 the piston travel, then at slow revs the dynamic compression ration will be around 8.5/1 which is the reason that there is no bottom end !

As rpms in crease & the intake air velocity increases, this delayed closing of the inlet valve allows the air which is now ravelling in through the throttle bodily to force its way into the cylinder & as air is compressible its own mass keeps it combining in. The trick is to close the valve at just the right time for the rpm you want peak torque to occur. ICE engines can reach 110% intake efficiency, meaning there is 1.1 bar of pressure in the cylinder when the valve closes.

This is why you will find all static high compression engines have quite long valve durations & usually a good sized overlap ! The original x250-h1 had 12/1 compression, but 280 degree duration cams, putting dynamic compression around 11/1 which is a good number for standard unleaded fuel.

The timing of the valve closing events determine at what RPM the engine will be most efficient. For a road bike peak efficiency at peak revs is not needed, as they rarely spend much time there, especially as the displacement increases, they become to fast or unrideable. But in smaller engines that can't create enough power to worry you when riding it, then the higher in the rpm your reach peak efficiency the more peak power you will make & they spend more time there ! Peak HP normally follows peak torque by 1500-2000rpm regardless of the bike engine size.

The original ex250 had peak torque around 10,800 rpm, with peak power around 12,600 rpm, with 1400rpm over rev, which is a flexible zone that allows you to manipulate speed in all but the top gears when in that rpm range. This is useful on a road bike but would mean peak torque is to low on a race or LSR engine.

YMMV
Chris as some little bit of information about a real race-ready Ninja 250 https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=248029
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Old March 5th, 2016, 06:15 AM   #54
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Eric I enjoy to look at the details of how you're doing it and I'm confident you'll figure out everything.
Good luck
Thank you. I have not figured out much.

In the early days at Maxton the only change I could make was to increase ignition timing. Then compression with forged Pistons. And I had a choice of fuel.

Advancing the timing allowed me to increase jet size and make more power
Increasing octane seemed to help control knock. But at a 115 octane the power began to drop. 118 octane and the engine would not run.

Once I got to the power pint of damaging parts I could melt a spark plug tip. Repairing the damage decreased compression because I had to clean up the combustion chamber.

It was sort of two steps forward and one step back.

In 2007 the top speed of a 250 ninja was 108 mph. In 2009 I had it up to 110mph.
Nitrous changed the game. From there it was two steps forward and two steps back.
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Old March 5th, 2016, 09:38 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Mohawk View Post
Static compression is no indication of dynamic compression ratio. The valve duration & overlap, please intake air velocity, determine the dynamic compression ratio. Which is typically around 10-11/1 for a bike running on low octane unleaded fuel. For one running on higher octane then 11.5-12.5/1 is a useful working range, above that you need Very high octane race fuel or delayed ignition to avoid knock.

To explain dynamic compression image a 12/1 static compression engine, if you took the cams & spark plug out then set the cylinder to BDC & inserted the spark plug when you turned he engine to TDC you'd have 12/1 compression, on air !
But if you turned a stock engine over slowly on the induction stroke at BDC you would have the intake valve open, say for 70degrres ABDC (original ex250-H1) so for nearly half the compression stroke the intake valve is open, if we say 1/3 the piston travel, then at slow revs the dynamic compression ration will be around 8.5/1 which is the reason that there is no bottom end !

As rpms in crease & the intake air velocity increases, this delayed closing of the inlet valve allows the air which is now ravelling in through the throttle bodily to force its way into the cylinder & as air is compressible its own mass keeps it combining in. The trick is to close the valve at just the right time for the rpm you want peak torque to occur. ICE engines can reach 110% intake efficiency, meaning there is 1.1 bar of pressure in the cylinder when the valve closes.

This is why you will find all static high compression engines have quite long valve durations & usually a good sized overlap ! The original x250-h1 had 12/1 compression, but 280 degree duration cams, putting dynamic compression around 11/1 which is a good number for standard unleaded fuel.

The timing of the valve closing events determine at what RPM the engine will be most efficient. For a road bike peak efficiency at peak revs is not needed, as they rarely spend much time there, especially as the displacement increases, they become to fast or unrideable. But in smaller engines that can't create enough power to worry you when riding it, then the higher in the rpm your reach peak efficiency the more peak power you will make & they spend more time there ! Peak HP normally follows peak torque by 1500-2000rpm regardless of the bike engine size.

The original ex250 had peak torque around 10,800 rpm, with peak power around 12,600 rpm, with 1400rpm over rev, which is a flexible zone that allows you to manipulate speed in all but the top gears when in that rpm range. This is useful on a road bike but would mean peak torque is to low on a race or LSR engine.

YMMV
Thanks. I gave high lift and duration cams from BEET, but I think what I am missing is true race fuel. I will try some VP mr4, u4.1, or similar on the next dyno to see what she is capable of.

Eric,

Have you tried oxygenated fuels such as this in your setup? The gains can be amazing from just fuel.
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Old March 6th, 2016, 12:03 PM   #56
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Woooo Hoooo. The 282cc engine fired up on the first crank!!

Now I just have to go over the entire bike and double check every bolt.

The new 282cc engine has the Weisco piston kit. I had to clean up the piston tops to keep them from hitting the head. But they seem OK.

The trans has World Wide creamic bearings .

I ported the head on this engine. It is using stock cams intake and exhaust . But I used adjustable sprockets and adjusted the cam timing. I am very happy with the way it sounded when it was idling. I gave it a couple blips with the throttle and it jumps easely to six or seven grand.

Now I need to get it to the Dyno.
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Old March 6th, 2016, 12:09 PM   #57
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The new 282cc engine has the Weisco piston kit. I had to clean up the piston tops to keep them from hitting the head. But they seem ok.
Yea...that sucked. Did you check it with clay?

What about oxygenated fuel...yeah or nay?
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Old March 6th, 2016, 12:15 PM   #58
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I knew about the interference issue with Weisco. I just put everything together without a base and head gasket. Then removed the little bump that was causing the problem. Not a big deal.

As for fuel. I have used it at Bonneville with vintage BMW 250 race bikes. And friends use it to race with. It definitely does what it should.

My problem is nitrous. I'm just not sure how it goes the nitrous. Also I don't think it will store well. I can't afford to buy five gallons of race gas and have it go flat. I only race once or twice a year. So it is just to expensive to test.
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Old March 6th, 2016, 03:15 PM   #59
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Correct me if im wrong but oxygenated fuel just gives you extra oxygen, nitrous gives you extra oxygen. Why bother with the hassle of oxygenated fuel if you are simply going for LSR (as in don't care about part throttle HP levels) and you already have nitrous. Just inject for nitrous.
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Old March 6th, 2016, 04:01 PM   #60
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Ya that is my thinking. I need detonation control. If I was to give any advice on building a race engine. I would say start with the fuel. By that I mean figure out what you are doing. Figure out what sort of fuel you need for that purpose. Then build an engine that is best suited for that fuel.

My approach of building an engine. Then trying to figure out what to burn in it feels backwards to me.
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Old March 6th, 2016, 04:17 PM   #61
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I'd agree with your reasoning, but I always do the same. I build an engine, then find out what type of fuel I have to run in it. Luckily, they have so far all ran great on VP110 (which I can get on pump locally) or pump gas.
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Old March 6th, 2016, 04:21 PM   #62
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Vp110 has proven to be the best for me also.
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Old March 6th, 2016, 04:35 PM   #63
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Correct me if im wrong but oxygenated fuel just gives you extra oxygen, nitrous gives you extra oxygen. Why bother with the hassle of oxygenated fuel if you are simply going for LSR (as in don't care about part throttle HP levels) and you already have nitrous. Just inject for nitrous.
My thinking:

Race gas is oxygenated to burn more fuel with the same amount of intake air using the same metered amount of fuel and air. Important to note is that race gas does not have enough oxygenation to burn without any air.

Using that, we know that we still need intake air to burn race gas. Yes. Okay. So my thought is adding NO2 just means you can pump even more fuel in. From this standpoint, my thought is that NO2 and race gas are independent variables and should really just benefit each other.

Thanks my thoughts. No prior experience with race gas other than knowing that telltale smell.


Badass build so far, Eric. Glad it started up and ran!!
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Old March 6th, 2016, 04:45 PM   #64
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My thinking:

Race gas is oxygenated to burn more fuel with the same amount of intake air using the same metered amount of fuel and air. Important to note is that race gas does not have enough oxygenation to burn without any air.

Using that, we know that we still need intake air to burn race gas. Yes. Okay. So my thought is adding NO2 just means you can pump even more fuel in. From this standpoint, my thought is that NO2 and race gas are independent variables and should really just benefit each other.

Thanks my thoughts. No prior experience with race gas other than knowing that telltale smell.


Badass build so far, Eric. Glad it started up and ran!!
Yeah, I honestly don't know either. I have never used oxygenated gas, nitrous, or forced induction. The only variables I've ever played with is high compression, porting, timing, intake, and exhaust.
Due to high compression I've had to raise octanes, but the only racegas I've used is VP110. (Never used alcohol personally, but I have some second hand experience)
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Old March 6th, 2016, 05:49 PM   #65
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I burn my leftover race gas in my scooter. That way I can smell it when I am not at the race track
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Old March 6th, 2016, 06:21 PM   #66
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I put TEL into pump gas. Same effect.
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Old March 6th, 2016, 06:24 PM   #67
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I love the smell of racegas and yamalube, but I only smell it in the pits. I used to ride with a guy who put strawberry scented oil in his gas, made it harder to pass him.
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Old March 6th, 2016, 06:40 PM   #68
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http://fcrcmachine.com/i-17698165-fu...grape-4oz.html

But nothing beats oxy fuel
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Old March 8th, 2016, 08:38 PM   #69
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I just wanted to share a photo of the bike without the fairing.
I really like this bike. To me it is perfect. Light ,thin and fast. I am looking forward to holding the throttle wide open in sixth gear. Then holding the nitrous button down.
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Old March 9th, 2016, 06:25 AM   #70
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Are you allowed to disk off the wheels? like with a carbon fairing?

Also, you left your butt plug in
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I am slower than a herd of turtles stampeding through peanut butter.
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Old March 9th, 2016, 06:32 AM   #71
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You can disc the rear wheel. Or cover it with fairings. But you need to see 180 degrees or it. And can't go below the axle in front and rim in back. There are other classes that slow more coverage

You don't want a disc up front . The wind will steer you around.

That is my lucky butt plug
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Old March 9th, 2016, 06:37 AM   #72
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Yeah I know about the issues with disking a front wheel from TT bicycling. Wasn't sure if you were allowed to do both for a low wind day or whatever.

Still badass!
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Old March 9th, 2016, 07:06 AM   #73
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Thanks a lot.
I am more surprised than proud of how this all turned out.

The only new parts are the frame and wiring. The engine the forks the swingarm wheels all the body parts are from my original 2008 bike. It is hard for me to seperate the two bikes in my mind.

I don't regret all the money and time I put into the orange bike. It was cool. But it was a learning process. And it lead to this bike.
109 is the best speed the orange bike ever did without nitrous. The yellow bike did 112 consistanly. I really feel this bike will be faster. But only the time slip will tell.
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Old March 9th, 2016, 09:12 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgentz View Post
I put TEL into pump gas. Same effect.
Same effect as what?
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Old March 9th, 2016, 10:06 AM   #75
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Smells great.

It also raises octane and helps cushion the intake valve.
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Old March 9th, 2016, 11:29 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by mgentz View Post
Smells great.

It also raises octane and helps cushion the intake valve.

The only purpose for higher octane is to prevent detonation, so there is no need to raise the octane of your gas if you are not encountering engine knock. And the valves of the Ninja are designed so that they do not need lead to last.

Increasing the octane actually slows down the fuel burning process and will result in a loss of power when it is not needed. As RacerX mentioned in a previous post, he ran into problems when the octane was too high.

However, if you wish to inhale lead fumes because of the great smell, far be it from me to stop you
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Old March 9th, 2016, 11:37 AM   #77
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The only purpose for higher octane is to prevent detonation, so there is no need to raise the octane of your gas if you are not encountering engine knock. And the valves of the Ninja are designed so that they do not need lead to last.

Increasing the octane actually slows down the fuel burning process and will result in a loss of power when it is not needed. As RacerX mentioned in a previous post, he ran into problems when the octane was too high.

However, if you wish to inhale lead fumes because of the great smell, far be it from me to stop you
My seats need all the help they can get. If you read my build thread, the seats literally disintegrated.

The seats suck if you push them.
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Old March 13th, 2016, 11:26 AM   #78
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I am going on the dyno Thursday. I tried to find fuel but no one stocks anything. And I don't have time or money to order anything so I am going to use premium gasoline and add octane booster. I bought a can of this stuff. One can makes 16 gallons. Can holds 355 ml.

If I divide 355 by 16 I get 22. Somthing. So I will fill a one gallon gas can and add 25 ml of octane booster.
I guess I will do the same when I get to the track.
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Old March 13th, 2016, 11:31 AM   #79
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That sucks that you can't find racegas. Race gas different additives and might lead to different dyno results.
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Old March 13th, 2016, 11:36 AM   #80
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Ya it does suck. I might give this stuff a go for the Friday runs. Then buy some real VP c14 or c 16
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