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Old March 17th, 2016, 05:19 PM   #81
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I ran the bike on the dyno today.

The motor is 282cc with a ported head and ceramic trans bearings. I also have stock cams adjusted to give some lobe separation. Otherwise it is stock

The carbs and ignition settings are from last September. I did not change them before the dyno runs today

At first the engine was breaking up at 7500 rpm. The fuel settings was so rich is was off the scale. It was like 8-10 to1 air fuel ratio.
The carbs had #135 jets. Way to rich.
I went to 125 and it was much better then I changed to #115 jets. This gave a super smooth pull to 13500 rpm but was still close to 10to1 air fuel ratio.

I did not want to play with it anymore. I suspect it will run very well with a jet number of #108~#111. That depends on the weather in Ohio next month. The important thing to me was the smooth power all the way to the rev limiter.

So with the carbs fat and in fifth gear I went to 10000 rpm and hit the nitrous. The engine responded perfectly going through 13500 rpm and making 43 hp@12500 rpm. The mixture was still rich. Well below 12 to 1 and the EGT was below1100 deg.
The timing was very conservative because of the pump gas.

But all and all it was good. With some minor jetting changes and tuning the nitrous system I know I can make 15 more hp without any trouble.

So now I have to get ready for the Ohio mile in late April
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Old March 17th, 2016, 07:32 PM   #82
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Old March 18th, 2016, 12:08 AM   #83
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Good numbers, well done. Any idea what the hp was without the nitro shot ?

Regarding the jet sizes, my H12 runs a 108 main as standard. I just stripped the carbs off to see if they were gunged up as it will not idle reliably & had been laid up all winter. Carbs are clean, but the idle mixture screws were in odd places, one was 2-1/4 out & one was almost full in !? Someone must have messed about with it in the past !

Good luck with the final tuning & the run in April.
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Old March 18th, 2016, 05:20 AM   #84
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The motor run was below 30 hp. But it was very rich. So that is OK it had 15 ft lb of torque at 7500.
I use the CR Special carbs and I think the 108 is about what I'll run.

Interestingly this engine idles much better than the 265 I have run for the last two seasons.
And best of al the EGT are even. I was always 100 deg off from one side to the other with the 265.
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Old March 18th, 2016, 07:03 AM   #85
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Badass, Eric!!!

I'm very surprised with how small the mains are needing to be. Maybe that's the difference between the pregen motor and the newgen motor? Are the jets in your CR carbs using the same naming convention as Keihin jets the rest of us use in the stock carbs?
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Old March 18th, 2016, 07:07 AM   #86
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I don't know for sure about that.
I do know the hole size is one thing and the depth of the hole is another. The CR jets are ten millimeters in length. But I don't know how long the jetted part is.
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Old March 18th, 2016, 08:13 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choneofakind View Post
Badass, Eric!!!

I'm very surprised with how small the mains are needing to be. Maybe that's the difference between the pregen motor and the newgen motor? Are the jets in your CR carbs using the same naming convention as Keihin jets the rest of us use in the stock carbs?
His carbs are 31mm venturis, and ares are 32mm venturis, so his carbs might have a stronger signal strength and therefore need smaller jets to get the same amount of gas.
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Old March 18th, 2016, 08:46 AM   #88
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The CR special is 31mm smooth bore. And have no vacuum slide.
The stock carbs are CVK30.

http://www.aftermarketcycles.com/kei...250-ninja.html

I measured the jets using very precise tools. I can say with confidence that both jets have the same orifice. But I don't know if the carbs flow the same volume of fuel given the vast difference in design
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Old March 18th, 2016, 09:25 AM   #89
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I guess I was confused. Also the Cr's being smooth bore they have even less signal strength, so I was even more wrong.
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Old March 18th, 2016, 09:28 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy View Post
I guess I was confused. Also the Cr's being smooth bore they have even less signal strength, so I was even more wrong.
This is all very confusing. I forgot the Kehin jets are only in even numbers. So my selection will be 108-110 or 112

There is no 111. But the question itself was great and led me to investagate the difference . Thanks
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Old March 18th, 2016, 09:28 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy View Post
His carbs are 31mm venturis, and ares are 32mm venturis, so his carbs might have a stronger signal strength and therefore need smaller jets to get the same amount of gas.
*ours

...signal strength? I've never heard anything referring to a signal strength in a carb.
EDIT: from some quick google searching, that term appears to be a made-up way to describe the lag between valve opening and fuel/air being sucked through the carb and mixed.

The only way you get more flow rate through an oriface is to have more pressure differential across the oriface. So I'd hazard a guess that between his air velocity (from smaller diameter carbs) and venturi design (specific to the carb), he's making a strong low pressure zone in the throat of his venturi, therefore making more pressure differential across his jet than the stock CV carbs I have in mind.

I was more asking what numbering convention of jet he was using so I could get an idea if this was an apples to apples comparison. Clearly, it's not because there's more differences in the carbs than I initially considered. No big deal here.
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Old March 18th, 2016, 09:42 AM   #92
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The signal to the carbs would be determined by all the variables in the engine. Compression cam timing and ignition timing are easy to guess at. But things like valve adjustment ,cam chain and cylinder condition throw it all out the window. That is why we have a jetting database for te stock carbs.
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Old March 19th, 2016, 04:04 PM   #93
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I put some stickers on the fairings today. I decided to try and copy the factory look. That way people don't have to ask what it is. They will know just by looking at it . It's a 250 Ninja
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Old March 19th, 2016, 04:19 PM   #94
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What tire pressures do you typically set for you speed runs?
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Old March 19th, 2016, 05:24 PM   #95
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55 psi
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Old March 21st, 2016, 03:44 PM   #96
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Step one of the engine assembly is done. The case halfway are sealed.
The crank is balanced with new Carillo rods and JE pistons. The forged pistons are 12.5 to1.
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Old March 21st, 2016, 04:12 PM   #97
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Photo of the crank and rods
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Old March 21st, 2016, 10:17 PM   #98
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Eric and for the last 0.4 hp (maybe it's only 0.3 - idk, but it is) you'll need this:
"HKS MGV
Engines-slip improver

Surfacing at all highly stressed friction surfaces
HKS MGV reduces mechanical engine noise, gear box singing and wear on internal combustion engines, transmissions, wet clutches and primary drives of motorcycles.

HKS MGV is suitable for all internal combustion engines, transmissions and wet clutches and primary drives of motorcycles and reduces mechanical engine noise, gear singing and wear.
For some types of motorcycles an uncomfortable gear box singing / whistling of the primary drive is noticeable. According to the survey this singing / whistling interferes motorcyclists. Now we have completed the long ongoing development of HKS MGV.

Besides the many advantages of HKS MGV as friction reduction, delay of pitting and the like. We succeeded the significant reduction in noise (whistling / singing) from the gear box and primary drive. Even the finely machined highly stressed contact surfaces HKS MGV causes smoothing, by HKS MGV is pressed into the micro fine pores of the surface by the pressure load and intercalates there.
Clutchs are not affected by MGV. There is no appreciable wing loading at the friction points."
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 04:48 AM   #99
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I'll check into this.

Does anyone have recommendations on breaking in a new race engine. I use the Moto man break in method for most all my engines. But how should I go with no dyno or ability to ride on the street?
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 07:22 AM   #100
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RacerX, as you have the cases half built, can you do me a favour & measure the width front-rear & left-right of the cylinder base holes in the top of the crankcase & the thickness of the centre web between the cylinders ?

Thanks
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 07:25 AM   #101
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Sorry I have the top end done. I'm getting ready to do the cam timing.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 07:35 AM   #102
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Doh, was worth an ask
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 08:10 AM   #103
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I always do the idle to temp cool off, idle to temp ride lightly cool off, idle to temp ride the power band cool off, idle to temp ride lightly and beat the **** out of it method. I don't know if it is any good, but I have always had good luck with it, and other mechanics say that it is a very good method.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 09:02 AM   #104
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Quote:
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I'll check into this.

Does anyone have recommendations on breaking in a new race engine. I use the Moto man break in method for most all my engines. But how should I go with no dyno or ability to ride on the street?
Empty warehouse parking lot? You could always raise the front end back up to give you some ground clearance.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 11:05 AM   #105
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Quote:
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I'll check into this.

Does anyone have recommendations on breaking in a new race engine. I use the Moto man break in method for most all my engines. But how should I go with no dyno or ability to ride on the street?
I would make sure it fires up, but not run it much without load. Probably take it to a parking lot like Racin' suggested. Somewhere you can ride it and open the throttle enough to get some decent load on it. Let it cool, and do it again.

When I was racing karts we would just run them in practice, being slightly less aggressive on max revs than usual, but give them plenty of load. Seemed to work well.

I just don't like "soft" break-ins where the engine is idled for an extended amount of time or ridden very mildly. You need pressure and load to seat the rings.

Actually, I'm going to see a former Nascar engine builder in a few minutes, and I'll ask him what he suggests. He builds Ferrari and Porsche race engines for local teams, and is building a RD350 engine that I'm doing some coating work on.

EDIT: He said that riding under load would be the best if you can't use a dyno. Let it warm up for a minute of two, then ride with moderate load revving up to about 1/2 of redline and varying the load/rpms for about 20 minutes. Use conventional oil like Rotella T, and change it after you are done that day, then run a full synthetic. Extensive break-in isn't necessary in his opinion. He also has built Pro Stock motorcycle engines. He said they would start them up on a dyno, warm them briefly, and go right up to the rev limiter. That's mostly because the lifespan of the engine wasn't very long, so they didn't put any more run-time on it than necessary before racing.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 11:06 AM   #106
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Parking lots are not a good option. I am thinking te dyno is the best option
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 11:13 AM   #107
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Parking lots are not a good option. I am thinking te dyno is the best option
I would agree. I live out in the country so the roads are my break in.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 11:17 AM   #108
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The bike is stupid. Three inch lower. 15 inch between handlebars , no front brakes. And the steering is restricted to about 30 deg lock to lock.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 11:21 AM   #109
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The bike is stupid. Three inch lower. 15 inch between handlebars , no front brakes. And the steering is restricted to about 30 deg lock to lock.
Ah, the steering is the killer there. Forgot about that.


Abandoned airport runway then??

Yeah, dyno is the best.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 11:24 AM   #110
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The airport runway is my race track. But with out an ambulance standing buy I don't go full pin
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 11:32 AM   #111
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I don't see how the bike would know the difference between a parking lot, runway, race track, or dyno. On my motors I like to get a couple runs and accelerations like I'm on a racetrack, but you could do it with rear brake and a dyno just fine.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 11:33 AM   #112
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It's the ambulance I want
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 12:24 PM   #113
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Just curious: How fast can the ambulance do the Ohio Mile? Wouldn't want to crash on the far end if it you could time them with a sundial.
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 12:26 PM   #114
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They sit in the corner at short shutdown. Before you stop they are there. This is no joke. They have the engine running
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Old March 22nd, 2016, 01:50 PM   #115
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Nice that they're on top of things.
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Old April 2nd, 2016, 05:41 PM   #116
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Project X is ready!

Zero to race ready in three months. That is a record all by itself. I have a back up engine ready. Ten pounds of nitrous. New tires and all the details I can think of covered.

The new number is 9624.

I'm very excited to run this bike. Bike number 9623 set all the records at Ohio. The blown records have been taken by a serious supercharged 350 Honda on methanol. That is great because records are ment to be broken. And now I get to smash the existing records!
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Old April 2nd, 2016, 05:58 PM   #117
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Excellent!
I enjoyed the build.
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Old April 3rd, 2016, 01:23 AM   #118
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Looking good. If you can make 60hp, it should beat 130mph ! My old VF500 was dyno's at 59hp & would do a true 125 with me on board in standard trim & I'm not small nor light !

Best of luck with the record attempt.
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Old April 3rd, 2016, 04:19 AM   #119
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Thanks
I will be trying to go 125 always. But the record I will be shooting for is Modified Partial Streamlined / Twin Fuel/350cc-Four stroke. MPS/TF/350-4. It is 111.0422 mph.
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Old April 9th, 2016, 03:01 PM   #120
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Name: Eric
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The first race of the ECTA is April 28~May 1. The time trial is in Wilmington Ohio at the Wilmington air park. AKA THE OHIO MILE.
www.ecta-Lsr.com

Before that Project X will be on display, Saturday April 23 at Sun and Fun Motorsports in Iowa City.
They are having an open house. So if you are in South East Iowa come on by and say hello. www.sunandfunmotorsports.com/events.htm
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