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Old July 28th, 2018, 08:05 AM   #1
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Gantt is finally getting the little ninja ready to ride

Hey folks. After three years of sitting in the corner of my shop, I finally got the 250 running today. Carbs was drained before storing, I took the carbs off and cleaned them, I didn't replace the float valves but new o rings throughout. Bike has air box delete with k&n pod filter. Area P quite core exhaust.
I started with the 106 mains per kerrys advice. Screws 2.75 turns out. Third clip and two washers on top of clip. I fired the bike up, and it is backfiring randomly through the right side carb at idle. Idle wants to hunt a little. Any ideas on this issue? Carb sync was fine on the bench with a cylindrical feeler gauge.

Last futzed with by gantt; August 13th, 2018 at 04:40 AM.
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Old July 28th, 2018, 08:13 AM   #2
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The issue is definitely in the right cylinder. I unplugged the sparknplug for right cyl and the engine note does not change, indicating it is running on the left. Removed left plug wire and reinstalled right, won't run. Crank no start. So I think I am going to look back at the carbs, maybe something is not right in the right side. Will pull the plugs when the engine is cool and inspect. Also will swap coils side to side to eliminate that.
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Old July 28th, 2018, 08:45 AM   #3
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I'm going to order a few gaskets that need replacing. While I'm at it, I think I'll go ahead and rebuild the carbs. They was stored dry, but still could be causing an issue. Taking the forks off next week to get them rebuilt, putting a set of racetech springs in too.
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Old July 28th, 2018, 10:18 AM   #4
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There are probably some small passages and other parts of both carbs that are not completely clean, and your right carb is a little more in need of work.

Last futzed with by Triple Jim; July 28th, 2018 at 03:57 PM.
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Old July 28th, 2018, 10:49 AM   #5
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There are probable some small passages and other parts of both carbs that are not completely clean, and your right carb is a little more in need of work.
Thanks, I'll update after the carbs are cleaned and rebuilt.
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Old July 28th, 2018, 11:04 PM   #6
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You want to restore carbs to all-stock factory-clean condition as it left factory. Meaning all factory jet sizes and settings along with clean fuel circuits. It ran fine when it left factory, so will run fine when everything’s restored to factory-fresh conditions.

Also note difference between pregen and newgen engines, and therefore carb settings as well. And note lack of before and after dyno-charts with AFR on any of jetting suggestions.

I will tell you that racers are pragmatic cheating bunch. Any mod that gives them an advantage, legal or not, but they will exploit. They’ve done endless tuning and dyno testing to eek out any improvement possible. I can tell you for fact that not single newgen racer in my area I past 5-yrs have used factory or larger than factory jetting. They all use 96 mains as that fixes factory rich high-end and gives most power. In fact, that’s very first mod our sponsor Spears Racing does, is put smaller 96 mains in.

Anyone finding improvements with larger mains has not sufficiently cleaned their carbs with ultrasonic cleaning using industrial solvents, flossing of all tiny holes and passageway with copper wire or guitar string, and soda blasting. Without all that, your carbs are not factory-fresh clean and bigger jets just masks the symptoms, but only temporarily.
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Old July 29th, 2018, 02:52 AM   #7
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i agree with danno. he took me under his wing and tried to help me figure out exploited ninja's carb issues. i've tried factory pro, stock in every config. imaginable. he twisted my arm to death to put godzilla's stock carbs on red bike to verify if exploited ninja's carbs where truly functioning correctly. i never did it as both bikes will be down. will be sending them off to ductiman for cleaning. red bike had bad surging at 9000 rpm with 98-102 jets. only things that still puzzles me as why everyone in jetting database is running 108 or higher on mains, where as spears, racers are running stock or even smaller jets. airbox in or out should not matter. i eventually had to put 108's back in again just to ride or cover up fuel/transition holes. i did buy another airbox to put back again if neccessary. factory pro needles are at clip 5 max. gantt this is info that pertains to you too, just trying to save you from taking carbs out over and over and over. chime in:confused
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Old July 29th, 2018, 01:40 PM   #8
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Factory jets won't work in my case. The air box has been removed as well as a full exhaust system.
I'm going to replace all the seal and clean the carbs and see how she does. It ran fine when I parked it, save for needed the jetting changed.
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Old July 29th, 2018, 01:48 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gantt View Post
Factory jets won't work in my case. The air box has been removed as well as a full exhaust system.
I'm going to replace all the seal and clean the carbs and see how she does. It ran fine when I parked it, save for needed the jetting changed.
im sorry but that issue of airbox removal and jetting in still in flux and being challenged.
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Old July 29th, 2018, 08:36 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gantt View Post
Factory jets won't work in my case. The air box has been removed as well as a full exhaust system.
I'm going to replace all the seal and clean the carbs and see how she does. It ran fine when I parked it, save for needed the jetting changed.
if your bike ran fine with factory jetting, but now runs poorly with factory OR larger jets, then jets aren't the issue, some other factor is problem, mainly clogged carbs, specifically fuel circuits.

First, factory airbox and filter is HUGE relative to engine size. It's about same size as EX500, an engine with 2.5x airflow and power. Filter is about same size as my CBR600RR, an engine with 5x airflow and power. Therefore, airbox and filter represents zero restriction and switching it for pods will make zero difference. As numerous people have discovered already.

Major intake restriction is snorkel, remove that and airbox flows as well as no airbox. In fact, that's what I did for one race last year as test. With no airbox at all, I got exactly same times as with airbox with snorkel removed (usual toss fastest/slowest lap, average rest). Which was about 1/2-sec faster per lap at Thunderhill than factory airbox+snorkel.

Also you are assuming factory jetting is perfect, therefore needs adjustment with mods. Nope, it's way, way too rich in high-end (where mains adjust) at 10:1+. Max-power occurs on NA engines around 13.5:1 or 35% less fuel. Here's some dyno-charts of full-exhaust mods.
http://www.racingorder.com/2010/10/t...-dyno-results/

Notice he got +21% more power with snorkel removal and full exhaust with NO jetting changes. Here's actual data from that dyno run. Note with +21% more airflow in top-end, it is still WAY to rich at 11.3-12.1:1 AFR in high-end. That's why Spears Racing suggests 96 mains for even more power. I use 96 on my race-bike with full exhsust (+21% more HP) and 94 on my street-bike with Ali El Cheapo muffler.



The thing with tuning is you need objective tests with quantifiable data in order to see what effects your mods have. It frequently requires multiple stages of adjustments after analyzing AFR data from dyno-tests or widebands.
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Old July 29th, 2018, 09:06 PM   #11
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Some additional data:

Racing on the Cheap - scroll down to "The Nuts and Bolts" section, note: "close to perfect" is with full AreaP exhaust and factory jetting. Willow Springs is ~2400ft above sea-level, hence main-jet reduction to 95 instead of usual 96
Dyno testing - lean mid-range only - thinned needle to correct.
Racing Order - Dyno testing

Note that factory jetting is both too lean AND too rich. You want to use smaller mains to fix high-end richness. Then unscrew pilot and shim needles to fix mid-range lean. Actually better to reshape needles on mini-lathe to make more gradual taper rather than factory stepped design.

I'm in my second season of racing 250 as Expert; it's extremely competitive due to limited mods allowed. EVERYONE has optimized their bike given allowed mods: exhaust and jetting is free (i should've bought stock in 96 jets). If you've got some new configuration that's even more powerful and repeable on dyno, i'd gladly pay you consult and exclusivity fee of $10k. Hell, make that $20k, i want to beat those bastards!
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Old July 30th, 2018, 12:47 AM   #12
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i agree the needles need to be custom made. stock or even factory pro allows transition fuel holes in fuel circuit. covering with more gas is definitely not the answer as i found out with red bike. why factory pro is giving 110,112,115 mains is beyond comprehension.
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Old July 30th, 2018, 03:24 AM   #13
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The needles are dynojet. And the air box is long gone. It came out three years ago. This project has just been put on the back burner for a long while. I'll get it jetted correctly. Once I get the bike rideable. I am a competent mechanic, though I admit carbs are an anomaly to me. I make my living working on computer controlled vehicles, far cry from carbs and reading plugs. Lol
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Old July 30th, 2018, 03:48 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gantt View Post
The needles are dynojet. And the air box is long gone. It came out three years ago. This project has just been put on the back burner for a long while. I'll get it jetted correctly. Once I get the bike rideable. I am a competent mechanic, though I admit carbs are an anomaly to me. I make my living working on computer controlled vehicles, far cry from carbs and reading plugs. Lol
i'm sending mine off to ductiman. he is a wizard on carb cleaning/rebuilding.
https://customcarbservices.com/
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Old July 30th, 2018, 03:53 AM   #15
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we need custom needles! even on factory new green bike, i can feel the mid/mains transition hole. i have snork pulled and 2 washers on needles. will be trying 96 mains too
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Old July 30th, 2018, 08:59 AM   #16
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i'm sending mine off to ductiman. he is a wizard on carb cleaning/rebuilding.
https://customcarbservices.com/
part of the reason this project took a long break, i do 99% of all my own work, be it motorcycle, home appliance, car etc. i have a hard time letting people work on my stuff. i guess i just grew up fixing my own stuff because we couldn't afford to pay someone to fix it now its hard to let the dealer even do a recall or warranty work on one of my cars. lol
i can tune a carb, and clean them. but i'm just not very familiar with carb turning, i have to work at it the hard way. the older generation looks at new cars and complains about computer controlled. i look at older stuff and would rather be able to connect with a scan tool to help diag.
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Old July 30th, 2018, 09:01 AM   #17
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but on the good side, Racetech called and finalized my order for fork springs!! fork rebuild is next, trying to decide on what shoe's i want to spoon on. prolly going to 140 rear to allow more tire options.
this ole gal is going to be running soon, its been a long time. i am very excited to get it running.
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Old July 30th, 2018, 09:36 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by maverick9611 View Post
we need custom needles! even on factory new green bike, i can feel the mid/mains transition hole. i have snork pulled and 2 washers on needles. will be trying 96 mains too
The problem i've noticed is while shimming may fix mid-range lean issue, it causes extra richness on top. This is because it gets on "full mains" sooner. Real fix is to give needles a slimmer mid-section. Compare stock to dynojet needles.
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Old July 30th, 2018, 09:44 PM   #19
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but on the good side, Racetech called and finalized my order for fork springs!! fork rebuild is next, trying to decide on what shoe's i want to spoon on. prolly going to 140 rear to allow more tire options.
this ole gal is going to be running soon, its been a long time. i am very excited to get it running.
just finished red bike fork spring job and racetechs coming for green. since your close i can send my motion pro fork level gauge. racetechs requires 140 mm oil level. what rate did you get? i have .80kg
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Old July 31st, 2018, 02:41 AM   #20
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just finished red bike fork spring job and racetechs coming for green. since your close i can send my motion pro fork level gauge. racetechs requires 140 mm oil level. what rate did you get? i have .80kg
We are close the the same then. I got .80 as well. The forks are something I was going to sub out to a shop. I just don't feel like messing with them.
Thanks for the offer though. One reason I wasn't going to do it myself was due to some of the tooling. I didn't want to buy anything since I don't plan on doing this very often.
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Old July 31st, 2018, 04:16 AM   #21
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your joking right? ill drive to your house and help you do it b4 ya let a shop touch it. its not that bad. i have all the tools to do it. the money u save can be diverted into more mods!i have no problem helping a fellow member.
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Old July 31st, 2018, 06:06 AM   #22
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Yeah, maverick is pro with this fork stuff having done his recently. Doesn't take any time at all! If you want ultimate in fork performance, install some GVE and preload-adjusters at same time.
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Old July 31st, 2018, 10:13 AM   #23
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This is why I use and AFR gauge with wideband O2. No guessing. Better results and data for conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
if your bike ran fine with factory jetting, but now runs poorly with factory OR larger jets, then jets aren't the issue, some other factor is problem, mainly clogged carbs, specifically fuel circuits.

First, factory airbox and filter is HUGE relative to engine size. It's about same size as EX500, an engine with 2.5x airflow and power. Filter is about same size as my CBR600RR, an engine with 5x airflow and power. Therefore, airbox and filter represents zero restriction and switching it for pods will make zero difference. As numerous people have discovered already.

Major intake restriction is snorkel, remove that and airbox flows as well as no airbox. In fact, that's what I did for one race last year as test. With no airbox at all, I got exactly same times as with airbox with snorkel removed (usual toss fastest/slowest lap, average rest). Which was about 1/2-sec faster per lap at Thunderhill than factory airbox+snorkel.

Also you are assuming factory jetting is perfect, therefore needs adjustment with mods. Nope, it's way, way too rich in high-end (where mains adjust) at 10:1+. Max-power occurs on NA engines around 13.5:1 or 35% less fuel. Here's some dyno-charts of full-exhaust mods.
http://www.racingorder.com/2010/10/t...-dyno-results/

Notice he got +21% more power with snorkel removal and full exhaust with NO jetting changes. Here's actual data from that dyno run. Note with +21% more airflow in top-end, it is still WAY to rich at 11.3-12.1:1 AFR in high-end. That's why Spears Racing suggests 96 mains for even more power. I use 96 on my race-bike with full exhsust (+21% more HP) and 94 on my street-bike with Ali El Cheapo muffler.



The thing with tuning is you need objective tests with quantifiable data in order to see what effects your mods have. It frequently requires multiple stages of adjustments after analyzing AFR data from dyno-tests or widebands.
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Old July 31st, 2018, 10:36 AM   #24
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This is why I use and AFR gauge with wideband O2. No guessing. Better results and data for conversation.
I was thinking of welding a bung in my header and using an O2 sensor. think i'll try and read the plugs the old skool way. been a long time since i was playing with a carbed engine though. going back to the bracket racing days. lol

Quote:
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your joking right? ill drive to your house and help you do it b4 ya let a shop touch it. its not that bad. i have all the tools to do it. the money u save can be diverted into more mods!i have no problem helping a fellow member.
man thats great. I'll buy you lunch, and if you ride a bike, i'll take a ride with you too. I'd just as soon have my colon scoped than let another mechanic work on my stuff. i took my car in to the dealer for a recall, they put their damn feet on my door panel and left a mark, and put a dent in my hood. i swear folks are just as lazy as cattle these days.
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Old July 31st, 2018, 10:40 AM   #25
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bought a set of tires today. front stock size michilen pilot road, rear i went to 140 width to allow more tire choices, pilot road as well. bought a set of bar end mirrors, fairing bolt kit( been robbing from this bike for a while now), fuel filter since the screen in the petcock is blown out. new headlights, robbed them too for my 650, led 1157 bulb for the tail light.
i was piddling around the shop yesterday and heard the infamous kitten mewling in the fuel tank.. ahh, its good to hear this bike making noise again. lol been a while since i heard that. lol i still think about the picture that was posted years ago, someone trying to find the poor kitten lost in some guys bike parked on a school campus. haha
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Old July 31st, 2018, 02:32 PM   #26
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.. I'd just as soon have my colon scoped than let another mechanic work on my stuff. ...
I hear ya! No one touches my cars or bikes! Way, way too many bad experiences. Heck, even smog-test turned into 6-month ordeal with getting State referee involved in end. Although not as bad as this guy's: Jalopnik - Audi horror story.
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Old July 31st, 2018, 03:07 PM   #27
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I was thinking of welding a bung in my header and using an O2 sensor. think i'll try and read the plugs the old skool way. been a long time since i was playing with a carbed engine though. going back to the bracket racing days. lol



man thats great. I'll buy you lunch, and if you ride a bike, i'll take a ride with you too. I'd just as soon have my colon scoped than let another mechanic work on my stuff. i took my car in to the dealer for a recall, they put their damn feet on my door panel and left a mark, and put a dent in my hood. i swear folks are just as lazy as cattle these days.
no, i'll coming down in my little mule as i will have my blairs stand in the back. i start vac. friday, doing asheville this weekend. moving daughter into uga next week wed, thurs, dragon on friday. free mon. 8/6,tues 8/7. pm me and buy some 20 w fork oil asap
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Old August 1st, 2018, 05:47 AM   #28
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ordered new dust seals, and oil seals. 15w fork oil, and went ahead and bought a new set of spark plugs to bump my order to free shipping. cost 8 bucks more that way. got a rear cowl on the way.
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Old August 1st, 2018, 09:00 AM   #29
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stick coil mod super easy too and cheap
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Old August 1st, 2018, 05:39 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick9611 View Post
stick coil mod super easy too and cheap
So are these coil on plugs used on the 300? What's the benefit, any performance gain or just a little less clutter?
Hopefully I am about done spending $$$ for right now. Lol. Only so much spending a tightwad can handle without ill effects. 😂
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Old August 1st, 2018, 06:53 PM   #31
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Saves weight.
Marginally stronger spark at higher-RPMs

Helps if you’re doing mods that makes denser more-difficult-to-ignite mixtures such as big-bore high-compression engine, or turbo.
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Old August 1st, 2018, 09:36 PM   #32
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and it looks cool

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Old August 2nd, 2018, 02:40 AM   #33
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I spent a while reading through various threads about this last night.
I like the look.
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Old August 2nd, 2018, 03:35 AM   #34
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i might have enough to do another set, iíll let ya know. stick coils yes, wiring harness with clip maybe.
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Old August 3rd, 2018, 07:32 AM   #35
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sounds good man. let me know

so one of my packages took a hard right turn and went to south georgia yesterday. lol USPS. out of prolly 500 packages i've mailed or had mailed to me, this is the first to go wayward.
UPS sent an email about my racetech springs, delayed shipping. bummer. carb rebuild kits are out of sight now. holy cow, the price i swear has almost doubled in three years. since i have a stack of new bowl gaskets, i sourced the air screw o ring from the o ring kit at the shop i work at. and ordered two float valves. the float valves are dried and leaking fuel. hope to pull the carbs this Sunday and start soaking them.
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Old August 3rd, 2018, 12:41 PM   #36
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i will delay on putting my springs in till next thurs. in case yours donít come in or get lost. since we have exactly the same rate we will put mine in yours
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Old August 3rd, 2018, 06:50 PM   #37
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Wow man you don't have to do that. If it's not going to cause you any issues. Thanks. But they are the same aren't they. 😀
Looking forward to a track day by next spring/summer.

I expect them around Wednesday or Thursday next week. Seals are shipping out Monday so it's going to be close on that. Kinda has me aggravated, I ordered Tuesday and here it's Friday and they haven't shipped. I could expect that maybe from eBay, but bike bandit would be faster, one would think.
Bar end mirrora came in. And an online fuel filter. The filter screen on the petcock was torn and I figured an online would provide more filtration anyway.
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Old August 6th, 2018, 06:07 AM   #38
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scored a clean airbox complete on ebay for 18 bucks, and a used drop in k&n filter for 20. i'm not even going to fool with the pod filter, i'll be installing the air box when i comes in and jet for stock box and drop in filter
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Old August 6th, 2018, 06:13 AM   #39
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@DannoXYZ what jet and needle setting would you recommend i start with for full area p quite core exhaust, stock airbox with drop in K&N filter? i have dynojet needles and jets. but i dont know if my jets go small enough. i have 100, 98 and possibly 96 dyno jet on hand. if thats not good, let me know and i'll order the correct jet range to play with
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Old August 6th, 2018, 08:56 AM   #40
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Hi, for full Area P exhaust with stock airbox with snorkel delete, should start with following settings using DynoJet kit:

- 38 stock pilots, 2.5-turns out
- 98 DynoJet mains (slightly smaller than factory 98)
- middle clip position on needle

This should get you about +20% more airflow and +20% more power than stock. Will still be too rich in high-end, not as bad as stock though. Fiddle with pilot screws for idle & throttle-opening transition. Adjust needle clip +/- 1 as needed for mid-range/partial-throttle.
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