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View Poll Results: Which type of engine do you prefer? | |||
Carbureted | 4 | 16.67% | |
Fuel Injected | 20 | 83.33% | |
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll |
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Thread Tools |
July 9th, 2017, 11:15 AM | #1 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: AJ
Location: Green Valley, IL
Join Date: May 2017 Motorcycle(s): 2001 Kawasaki Ninja 250r(SOLD) 2006 Kawasaki Ninja 250r full Muzzy(my pride and joy) Posts: 331
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Carburetor vs Fuel Injection
I have met a ton of great people here with a knowledge for these bikes that I can only HOPE to obtain a fraction of someday. I have found myself obsessed with the 250's carburetor. Every single thing that goes well or wrong with these bikes in some way or another comes back to the carbs. I've been reading all I can about the ninjette carbs and carbs in general. What Ducatiman does is astonishing. With that said with the invention of fuel injected engines on these 250's which do you prefer and why? Never really found the answer to what is better. To each their own I suppose. Pros and cons of both. Looking forward to reading this post.
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July 9th, 2017, 12:10 PM | #2 |
Cat herder
Name: Gort
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Third option: Either - it doesn't truly matter.
Carburetion can be a bit of an art, unlike FI. It gives the bike a bit of character, making it less like an appliance. Ask any older person... the cars they remember most fondly usually aren't the most reliable and trouble-free ones. They were the ones that you bonded with. These days, my car is just a transportation tool. But FI lets you forget about how things are working, because it either works just fine or throws you an error code. And the error code is usually fixed simply by replacing something. So carbs... elegant mechanical devices, rewarding once you understand them, but there's more to go wrong. FI... boring but reliable.
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I am NOT an adrenaline junkie, I'm a skill junkie. - csmith12 Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est. Heri historia. Cras mysterium. Hodie donum est. Carpe diem. |
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July 9th, 2017, 02:01 PM | #3 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: AJ
Location: Green Valley, IL
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Quote:
However why does it seem like every time a carbureted motorcycle has an issue it seems no matter what it is, it quite possibly could be related to the carburetor? Don't hear people saying "well it's gotta be the fuel injection" nearly as often. Leads me to believe a carb plays a much more significant role with the engine and function of the motorcycle.
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"A car or truck will get you from point A to B. But a motorcycle, that is the point." -unknown |
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July 9th, 2017, 03:00 PM | #4 |
Cat herder
Name: Gort
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By "an issue" do you include all that can go wrong with a bike? Transmission? Fuel tank? Suspension? Ignition?
Of course not. Carburetors play the exact same role as FI. They meter fuel. They do not play a "more significant role with the engine and function of the motorcycle." Note that carbureted Ninjettes have been around a whole lot longer than FI bikes. There are many more of them, they have much more mileage, and they're older. So there's some selection bias going on here... of COURSE you're going to see more issues with carbureted bikes. Check back in in 15 years and see how many problems you have with aging FI bikes. Having said that, if it ain't there, it can't break, right? Being more complex devices than fuel injectors, they are more sensitive to poor maintenance and neglect. You may note that most of the issues you'll find are related to the bike being parked for a long time, with fuel going bad. That's not the fault of the carb, nor an inherent weakness. It's the fault of the owner not treating his/her machinery properly. A fuel injector can get clogged too. But without the nooks and crannies you find in a carb, they're easier to clean by running some fuel treatment through the system.
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I am NOT an adrenaline junkie, I'm a skill junkie. - csmith12 Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est. Heri historia. Cras mysterium. Hodie donum est. Carpe diem. |
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July 9th, 2017, 03:33 PM | #5 |
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I enjoy my carburetors but only because I ride often and they stay cleaned. I also didn't have nearly as much trouble cleaning and tuning them as some people do because I've monkied with lots of small engine carburetors before. Knew one guy with a Honda Shadow that'd been sitting for two years because he couldn't figure it out, and by the time I met him and wanted to help him, he was just so done with it that he was selling it and buying a different bike.
Carbs are great. I like them. They're just nice. They're a really fun way to get intimate with the bike if you're that type of person (Not everyone is, and that's okay!). I also like fuel injection. It doesn't break as much. Although, carbs don't really break that much either when taken care of. The only thing I really dislike about carbs is that you do lose a sometimes significant amount of performance when you're riding at a different elevation than when you tuned it. It really is noticeable. One time I thought I was on a big hill when I was on a small slope that would normally give my bike no trouble (it's hard to interpret gravity on a twisty road when you've been riding for a while :P) That said, it really only happens when you go up a couple thousand feet. |
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July 9th, 2017, 06:53 PM | #6 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: AJ
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Quote:
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"A car or truck will get you from point A to B. But a motorcycle, that is the point." -unknown |
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July 9th, 2017, 09:10 PM | #7 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
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I bought my first bike in 1986, a Honda Interceptor 500. In fact, I just bought the same model bike this last week for the exact same price I paid in 1986. Before that, I did years of dirt-bike riding before I ever got a driver's license. Learned to do a lot of maintenance because 2-strokes always seem to need some work.
Then I into cars and racing. Hot-rodding cars seemed more complicated and back then, a lot of racers converted to carbs. Which is fine if you keep engine fairly stock without continuous upgrades. I got to point where I kept upgrading my cars to be competitive in SCCA, NASA racing and smaller club outfits. The costs of hours of labour in pulling carbs, re-jetting and grinding custom needles simply out-costed the simplicity of several seconds of mouse-clicks. I had gotten to the point where I was doubling, even tripling the factory output of an engine through mods like turbocharging. Optimizing each stage of upgrades for max-power while preserving grocery-store friendly driving for the missus and having single-crank cold-starts regardless of weather was simply cost-prohibitive or just impossible with carbs. I opened up a shop in SoCal offering Porsche Turbo upgrades. My main bread & butter service was ECU re-programming and dyno-tuning. With just a new chip and/or software, I was able to add an extra +100bhp to a stock car! There's no going back! I'm so deeply entrenched in the time-efficiency and cost-savings of EFI and associated tools such as multimeters, oscilloscopes, wideband O2-sensors with dataloging, laptops and bluetooth tablets, that my response to anyone inquiring about upgrades is to recommend a standalone programmable EFI system as the very first mod. It really saves tonnes of labour and thousands of dollars in the long-run. Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; July 10th, 2017 at 12:15 AM. |
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July 10th, 2017, 03:38 AM | #8 |
Certifiable nontundrum
Name: Harper
Location: NC Milkshake stand
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I like FI, but cover the computer with a faraday box for the emp, and always wear your tinfoil folks
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July 10th, 2017, 10:25 AM | #9 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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I saw that the cops were testing a remote-control toy car with EMP pulse to disable ECU on runaway cars. Worked great when testing on stationary targets. But at freeway speeds, they had trouble controlling the remote-control car. HAhahahah....
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July 10th, 2017, 11:27 AM | #10 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Quote:
that is because when people, especially noobs, "clean" clean the carbs, they don't get them clean. When you see "my bike wont run without the choke, but i just cleaned the carbs" that means the carb is not clean. I don't mind carburetors, they are simple, air through the venturi pulls fuel into the cylinder. I love the simple maintenance of my FI bikes even more, I push the button, and it starts!!
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'82 XV920: Soon to be tracker--'00 KLR685:adv --'04 DRZ400E--'12 Super Tenere --'13 Versys Ride more, worry less. |
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July 10th, 2017, 11:47 AM | #11 |
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There is a reason that all currently manufactured cars and most bikes have fuel injection. The computer control allows more precise metering of fuel making them more efficient and making it easier to pass ever stricter emissions requirements.
You can love carburetors all you want, but you can't argue that they are better than fuel injection. (unless your definition of better is simpler and cheaper) That being said. There are 4 motorcycles in my garage and none of them are FI. So which do I prefer? I prefer fuel injection for it's efficiency, it's easy of use, it's ability to adjust itself to altitude and dirty air filters. But I have carbureted bikes because carburetors come on older cheaper motorcycles. |
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July 10th, 2017, 03:08 PM | #12 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
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Quote:
1. my CBR600RR sat for 8-months last winter outside under a plastic tarp while I was busy with new job and moving in. My race Ninja 250 and wife's CB125T was stored inside heated garage for 6-months. After spring-thaw, I signed up for track-day on 250 and spent a whole day cleaning out tank, replacing with fresh gas, cleaning the carbs, replacing seals, etc. Same with CB125T before it would run smoothly enough for riding. The CBR600RR? No bother, it started within the 1st crank and idled cleanly with no hiccups! 2. back when I lived in S.B., I had a Porsche race-car that sat for 18-months waiting for engine-builder to deliver new engine (was supposed to be 4-months). Got engine just one week before Open Track Challenge. Ended up staying up 3-days in a row to get engine installed. Plugged in custom-chip specifically mapped for this engine... then it was the moment of truth. First crank? VVRROOOOmmmm!!! |
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July 11th, 2017, 04:55 AM | #13 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: AJ
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"A car or truck will get you from point A to B. But a motorcycle, that is the point." -unknown |
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July 11th, 2017, 05:22 AM | #14 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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30 years later...a Honda VFR800 RWB anniversary model, I believe an '07....this one with white wheel and seat changes (black is stock supplied)
This thing is a looker, very pleasing to the eyes. Could stare at it forever just sitting, parked in my garage (unfortunately, not mine) Notice red mirrors?
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Custom Carb Service |
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July 11th, 2017, 08:21 AM | #15 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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July 11th, 2017, 08:27 AM | #16 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Hey, the Interceptor 500 is a bike my hubby used to have! It was a bike I was supposed to learn to ride, but we never got around to teaching me. Gorgeous bike. The red, white, and blue still pulls my eye and there are still a few on the road!
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July 11th, 2017, 08:40 AM | #17 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Bill
Location: Port Huron, Michigan
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Wanna trade? |
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July 11th, 2017, 08:50 AM | #18 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Kerry
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Dinosaur it may be, but if it still runs and you like it...
We sold my husband's Interceptor to a guy who got pulled over on his test ride for making an illegal left turn. Didn't get a ticket, thankfully, and he still wanted the bike. |
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July 11th, 2017, 09:11 AM | #19 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Bill
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N.Y. State Troopers aren't usually this lenient. Bill |
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July 11th, 2017, 09:16 AM | #20 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Bill
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Quote:
Bill |
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July 11th, 2017, 09:37 AM | #21 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Quote:
Keihin "hidden circuits" designed to offer less access...as a result..simpler...less parts. Perhaps a bit more difficult and resistant to cleaning ...the Mikunis more "friendly" via accees. Keihin CVK's (on the EX250/500....throttle shafts not serviceable (nor are internal seals and washers) jets thread into carb body (not a removable block) and slide bridges pressed in...aqain not serviceable. The raw materials used in Mikuni's I think a bit more resistant to condensation. They tend to clean up better (the way they react to sodablast and ultrasonic) and suffer less water "stains"....in the bowls for instance. Note I'm comparing Keihin sidedraft CVK (on EX 250/500)and Mikuni downdraft CV carbs here used on Ducati twins, Yamaha R6 and YZF1000, and older flatslides used on Suzuki Bandit 600. To sum up..the Mikuni better materials and design, Keihins simpler....again IMHO. Edited to add...I forgot...Keihin air correction jets are pressed in, permanent, non-tunable. Mikuni's are screw in, removable, replaceable and tunable with sizes available. Again, Mikuni more complex, while designed for latitude in tuning.
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Custom Carb Service Last futzed with by ducatiman; July 13th, 2017 at 05:45 AM. |
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July 11th, 2017, 10:08 AM | #22 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Bill
Location: Port Huron, Michigan
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Cheers, Bill |
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July 11th, 2017, 10:19 AM | #23 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
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How about an RD400 engine in Ninja... that should be fun!
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July 11th, 2017, 10:24 AM | #24 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Gordon
Location: new york
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And likely doable too. The Keihin CR racing carbs ungodly expensive (a Ducati twin conversion for example..near $1000) ..generic Mikuni's likely affordable, effective and available for a 250 ninj.
But a massive project nonetheless...errors, mistakes can be costly...actually worth it in the end?
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July 11th, 2017, 10:33 AM | #25 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Bill
Location: Port Huron, Michigan
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Hmmm. 44 H.P. and probably less weight. That just may be the ticket! Oh, hell, your only a shoehorn away from a Kaw 500 triple at 60 H.P. Imagine that, a Kaw 500 triple with good handling. The mind boggles.
Buying a Kaw Ninja 500R would be a-lot less painful Bill |
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July 11th, 2017, 02:33 PM | #26 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Kerry
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July 11th, 2017, 09:38 PM | #27 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
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Quote:
There's one on eBay now! Honda VFR800 Interceptor 2007 25th Anniversary Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; July 12th, 2017 at 12:28 AM. |
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July 12th, 2017, 12:28 PM | #28 |
V-Twin Addict
Name: Robert "Doc"
Location: Seattle Area, Washington
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Just because "that's the way old guys did it" is not the way to keep thinking with any sort of technology, especially carbs. It's antiquated and needs to go away.
I couldn't wait to get away from carbs on my bikes and with 10% ethanol appearing everywhere in fuel, I can't stay away from them enough anymore because of what it does to the jets when they sit, for even two weeks without being run. Argument: Formula 1 cars get better performance and economy with modern technology. The environment will suffer less as we improve our concepts and technology on fuel use. Ask yourself briefly, "Will the argument, 'should we keep slavery alive just because the old guys did it that way?' still work? NO THAT'S STUPID. Just like it would be stupid to not have and actively promote -on all platforms- our technology help our society advance and make us better people. Yes, it is cool to be nostalgic for old stuff, but it is definitely time to kick archaic active things to the curb like NASCAR and other dino-sports that do not respect and promote the protection and furthering of technology that will move us into fuel efficient vehicles to reduce carbon footprints. With the US Government waiting for 30-40 year long "fleet-turnover" to slowly outdate carb-powered vehicles, this isn't happening fast enough. We should be converting these little monsters or taxing them at a higher rate to push them out of the active fleet faster. Not only are carbs a pain in the ass to keep in tune after engine temp and climate changes, there are such better performing answers out there, it's silly. Just look at how much more reliable the Ninja 300 is at starting than the 250.
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"I wrecked a moped once trying to pick up bitches in front of a party doing a stoppie" 14/10 would do again. |
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July 12th, 2017, 01:34 PM | #29 | |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
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In reality, there isn't a very high percentage of old cars in use. The ones that are tend to be owned by people that don't have a lot of money. Mandating their cars out off the road may have a lot more negative consequences than it seems at first. |
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July 12th, 2017, 01:37 PM | #30 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Bill
Location: Port Huron, Michigan
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What's the cost of a carburetor rebuild kit vs. a fuel injector system's "black box" ? All these computer controlled widgets are going to retire the "shade tree mechanic". In addition the expenses associated with all this technology will leave a-lot of potential bikers sitting on the curb. I paid $1,500.00 for my 07' Ninja in March. I would guess that all the work I did on it in March, April and May would have cost me in excess of $1,500.00 at the dealer and he wouldn't have done the detail work I did. Not only will the internal combustion engine fade into history so will the average motorcyclist. Not many people can afford a $6,000.00 motorcycle and pay the mortgage and feed the family. Enough Obamaisim already. Bill |
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July 12th, 2017, 02:29 PM | #31 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
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The world is always changing and evolving. It's the same as with blacksmiths and chimney sweeps; adapt or die! Heck, if you're a mechanic of any sort, it's very easy to learn EFI. Building an EFI system from scratch with circuit boards, discrete components and a soldering-iron's not hard at all. Any mechanic that claims to be able to "repair" any kind of automotive or motorcycle product should be more than proficient at building an EFI system and harness, install and tune them. At least any mechanic that wants to continue making a living and supporting their family.
Personally I think carbs work well if you stick with stock configurations. And keep the system clean and maintained. Yep, more work than EFI and definitely more care than many of these bikes have been getting though. I bought my '05 CBR600RR in '09 for $2500. I have spent way, way less time and money maintaining that bike than any of my carburetted bikes. Do seem to go through track tyres awfully fast though, which is partly why I race the 250. I find it fascinating that last bastions of carburetor usage, muscle-car hot-rodders, have embraced EFI with gusto for upgrading. http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/eng...gas-powerhouse http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/eng...n-market-today http://www.hotrod.com/articles/standalone-efi-systems |
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July 12th, 2017, 02:44 PM | #32 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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5x60 = $300 carb-rebuilds, compared to... EFI needs how many ECUs??? $000 !!! extremely rare to need a new ECU So... $300 / $00 = ???, use limit as X approaches 0 = infinity!!! Carbs cost infinitely more to maintain than EFI systems!! That's why shadetree mechanics will go under, there's no need to pay them with EFI!!! |
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July 12th, 2017, 02:57 PM | #33 |
in your machine
Name: Scott
Location: Summer Shade, Ky.
Join Date: Oct 2014 Motorcycle(s): 98 Ninja 250/F12 aka ZX-2R "SERENITY", 91 Ninja 500/A5 aka ZX-5R "Phoenix", 84 Honda GL1200A "SIREN" Posts: A lot.
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Hold on....... Runs and gets popcorn....... Gets Guinness....... Sits on comfy couch
OK carry on....
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violente et ignorantia ZX-2R BLOG Twitter and Instagram = Ghostt_Scott I'm not here to change your mind, just to inform. |
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July 12th, 2017, 03:24 PM | #34 |
V-Twin Addict
Name: Robert "Doc"
Location: Seattle Area, Washington
Join Date: May 2017 Motorcycle(s): '99 Buell X1, '09 Buell 1125CR,'10 Kaw EX250 (down to one), '13 MV Agusta F3 Posts: 43
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*gets popcorn*
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"I wrecked a moped once trying to pick up bitches in front of a party doing a stoppie" 14/10 would do again. |
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July 12th, 2017, 03:25 PM | #35 |
V-Twin Addict
Name: Robert "Doc"
Location: Seattle Area, Washington
Join Date: May 2017 Motorcycle(s): '99 Buell X1, '09 Buell 1125CR,'10 Kaw EX250 (down to one), '13 MV Agusta F3 Posts: 43
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this thread is super interesting. lots of passion and really interesting points.
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"I wrecked a moped once trying to pick up bitches in front of a party doing a stoppie" 14/10 would do again. |
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July 12th, 2017, 03:25 PM | #36 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Bill
Location: Port Huron, Michigan
Join Date: Mar 2017 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Kawasaki 250 Ninja, 1982 Honda Ascot FT500 Posts: A lot.
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What part of the Universe do you hail from where motorcycle carburetors require 5 rebuild kits every 20 years? Bill |
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July 12th, 2017, 03:49 PM | #37 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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I can pull up at least 10x threads here where someone needs their carbs rebuilt having owned the bike less than 2-yrs. Just the fact that the product exists indicates a need. In the past 30-yrs, I've bought carb-rebuild kits for the following bikes I've owned:
- VF500F - VF750F - VFR750 - RZ350 - CB125T - EX250F - EX500 - GPZ250 - CB600F - CBR600 - CR250 - RM125 - VF500F again!@#%$ Never had to do the same for anything with EFI. In fact, have we ever seen an "EFI ECU rebuild-kit"? |
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July 12th, 2017, 03:51 PM | #38 |
V-Twin Addict
Name: Robert "Doc"
Location: Seattle Area, Washington
Join Date: May 2017 Motorcycle(s): '99 Buell X1, '09 Buell 1125CR,'10 Kaw EX250 (down to one), '13 MV Agusta F3 Posts: 43
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I have a 2010 that has 2 rebuild kits in it. Thanks ethanol!
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"I wrecked a moped once trying to pick up bitches in front of a party doing a stoppie" 14/10 would do again. |
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July 12th, 2017, 04:10 PM | #39 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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With autos, there has been need for fuel-system component upgrades to deal with ethanol fuels (hoses, pumps, fittings, O-rings etc.). Are there such upgrades for carbs? Ethanol-resistant seals, jets, diaphragms, etc.? Or are we getting same OEM/NOS that was designed for back when these bikes were new and pre-ethanol fuels?
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July 12th, 2017, 04:14 PM | #40 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
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I have an '05 that I bought a couple years ago, and I haven't had any carburetor problems, other than putting one shim under each of the needle clips. Ethanol has never caused me a problem as long as I don't let the bike sit for many months.
Interestingly, my '89 Moto Guzzi Mille GT (1000 cc) gets mid 50s MPG, while newer fuel injected Guzzis of similar displacement typically get in the 40s. Which is better for the world? |
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