Seeking an answer

awesome_r6 · September 18th, 2010, 06:12 PM

Today MeeShee and I were going on a ride. Me on my 09 R6 and her on her 08 Ninja 250. Im asking you guys cause I have never experienced this on any of my R6's.
The conditions were wet. Wet roads and a little rain as well. MeeShee was comming to a stop light and she applied her rear and front brake with the same pressure as she always does. Except this time her back tire (brakes) locked up and she started fish tailing. Luckily her MSF training took over and she rode it out without high siding. My question is, did the rear tire lock up because of every thing being wet? Seems kinda odd but I have never owned a Ninjett. Is the braking system much different than other bikes to where if it get wet its a bit more grippy? Thanks for any help or answers with this.

Alex · September 18th, 2010, 06:39 PM

Nothing particularly different about the ninjette, sounds like nothing more than too much rear brake pressure. It's a light bike, and the rear can lock pretty easily. I don't know what tires are on her bike, but if they are still the stock IRC's, they aren't known for having spectacular grip in the wet either.

kkim · September 18th, 2010, 06:54 PM

What are the tire pressures in her bike?

I agree, consider putting on some stickier rubber and also have her work on her braking technique till she's comfortable balancing the front/rear braking pressures to avoid locking up the rear while minimizing stopping distances.

Good for her that she remembered what she was taught in the MSF class... which is why everyone who rides should take it.

00NissanNinja · September 18th, 2010, 07:19 PM

I had a little bit of fishtail the first time I rode in the rain. The stock tires are lame especially in the wet +1 for some better tires. But I have gotten used to the rain and riding the bike and braking so I haven't had a problem since that very first time(maybe that was only due to me braking in the

spot in the middle of a lane where cars are dripping oil). Like kkim said work on balancing your braking better and she'll be good to go.

mrlmd · September 19th, 2010, 04:05 PM

"Locking up" = skidding, loss of traction, tire sliding on the road and not rotating.
There were many causes of this --
First, the road was wet.
Second, I don't know her size or weight, but in stopping, her weight probably shifted forward (as does the weight of the bike on the front wheel) and that lightened the rear even more, reducing traction.
Third, is how much rear brake she applied, how sensitive she is to do that just up to the point of losing traction.
Fourth, is how much grip and tread is on her tires, how basically grippy or sticky they are.
Fifth, in the rain or slippery conditions, you have to adjust, not apply the front and rear brake "as she always does". You have to anticipate what's going to happen and react/ adjust to it before it happens.
And Sixth, most importantly, she didn't lose it by releasing the rear brake once the back end started to skid and slide all over the place. If the rear wheel regained traction had she let the brake off, she could have had a highside crash.

Rosie · September 19th, 2010, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrlmd

If the rear wheel regained traction had she let the brake off, she could have had a highside crash.

Really? Is that what happens if you release the rear break once the tire is locked? It happened to me once as well and I kept it locked (they way they taught me at the MSF class) and re-gained control, but I had no idea that releasing the break in that situation could cause a highside crash.. That's good info for me.

Alex · September 19th, 2010, 05:34 PM

Well, it's not that black and white. The problem comes in if the rear wheel is locked, and is also not in line with the front wheel, and then regains traction quickly when the brake is released (while it is still not in line). In that case the immediate traction can flip the bike to the side and in the worst case, highside the rider.

But if the rear wheel is back relatively in line with the front wheel, letting off the rear brake may do nothing more than start to turn and the rider can go on their way. The blanket guidance of the MSF to hold it on until you come to a complete stop isn't a bad idea, but at some point people gain the feel required to allow the rear wheel to get rolling again without having to bring the bike completely to a stand-still.

Rosie · September 19th, 2010, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex

Well, it's not that black and white. The problem comes in if the rear wheel is locked, and is also not in line with the front wheel, and then regains traction quickly when the brake is released (while it is still not in line). In that case the immediate traction can flip the bike to the side and in the worst case, highside the rider.

Understood

In my case the back tire was definitely not in line with the front when it was locked (fish tailing) so it was a good idea to keep it locked then. I need to learn to put less pressure on the back tire and more on the front when emergency stopping.

min nin · September 19th, 2010, 06:53 PM

I have found that it also helps to have the clutch out in gear.

It is harder to lock the wheel when the engine is helping.

awesome_r6 · September 20th, 2010, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

What are the tire pressures in her bike?

I agree, consider putting on some stickier rubber and also have her work on her braking technique till she's comfortable balancing the front/rear braking pressures to avoid locking up the rear while minimizing stopping distances.

Good for her that she remembered what she was taught in the MSF class... which is why everyone who rides should take it.

Not sure if they are stock tires (I think the previous owner said they were) but they are Dunlops. I also remember the original owner saying there were several years that the stock tires were junk. Would 08 stockers be the junk he was talking about?

kkim · September 20th, 2010, 02:25 PM

The Dunlop 501s that came on the 08s were relatively decent tires in comparison the the tires that came on later year ninjettes. At this point, I would check the tire pressures and attribute what happened to wet road conditions and most likely pilot error on being unfamiliar with the braking characteristics of the bike.

Practice, practice, practice is the best teacher.

awesome_r6 · September 20th, 2010, 09:03 PM

Thanks everyone...I kinda didn't want to buy new tires but would if I had to. I'm thankful for the MSF course to teach my baby girl to react in situations such as this.

September 18th, 2010, 06:12 PM	#1
awesome_r6 ninjette.org member Name: Craig Location: jackson Join Date: Aug 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 R6 Posts: 34	Seeking an answer Today MeeShee and I were going on a ride. Me on my 09 R6 and her on her 08 Ninja 250. Im asking you guys cause I have never experienced this on any of my R6's. The conditions were wet. Wet roads and a little rain as well. MeeShee was comming to a stop light and she applied her rear and front brake with the same pressure as she always does. Except this time her back tire (brakes) locked up and she started fish tailing. Luckily her MSF training took over and she rode it out without high siding. My question is, did the rear tire lock up because of every thing being wet? Seems kinda odd but I have never owned a Ninjett. Is the braking system much different than other bikes to where if it get wet its a bit more grippy? Thanks for any help or answers with this.

September 18th, 2010, 06:39 PM	#2
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	Nothing particularly different about the ninjette, sounds like nothing more than too much rear brake pressure. It's a light bike, and the rear can lock pretty easily. I don't know what tires are on her bike, but if they are still the stock IRC's, they aren't known for having spectacular grip in the wet either. __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

September 18th, 2010, 07:19 PM	#4
00NissanNinja I hate driving... Name: S Location: SW Ohio Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): 13 Triumph Street Triple R, 09 Ninja 250r (Sold 4/20/12) Posts: A lot.	I had a little bit of fishtail the first time I rode in the rain. The stock tires are lame especially in the wet +1 for some better tires. But I have gotten used to the rain and riding the bike and braking so I haven't had a problem since that very first time(maybe that was only due to me braking in the spot in the middle of a lane where cars are dripping oil). Like kkim said work on balancing your braking better and she'll be good to go. __________________________________________________ 09 ninja 2fiddy SE Driving slow things fast

September 19th, 2010, 05:34 PM	#7
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	Well, it's not that black and white. The problem comes in if the rear wheel is locked, and is also not in line with the front wheel, and then regains traction quickly when the brake is released (while it is still not in line). In that case the immediate traction can flip the bike to the side and in the worst case, highside the rider. But if the rear wheel is back relatively in line with the front wheel, letting off the rear brake may do nothing more than start to turn and the rider can go on their way. The blanket guidance of the MSF to hold it on until you come to a complete stop isn't a bad idea, but at some point people gain the feel required to allow the rear wheel to get rolling again without having to bring the bike completely to a stand-still. __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

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September 18th, 2010, 06:54 PM	#3
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	What are the tire pressures in her bike? I agree, consider putting on some stickier rubber and also have her work on her braking technique till she's comfortable balancing the front/rear braking pressures to avoid locking up the rear while minimizing stopping distances. Good for her that she remembered what she was taught in the MSF class... which is why everyone who rides should take it.

September 19th, 2010, 04:05 PM	#5
mrlmd ninjette.org sage Name: Marc Location: Crawfordville, Florida Join Date: Jan 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2005 Suzuki S50, 2006 Kawasaki Ninja EX250F, 1990 Honda PC800, 2000 Yamaha TW200 Posts: 848	"Locking up" = skidding, loss of traction, tire sliding on the road and not rotating. There were many causes of this -- First, the road was wet. Second, I don't know her size or weight, but in stopping, her weight probably shifted forward (as does the weight of the bike on the front wheel) and that lightened the rear even more, reducing traction. Third, is how much rear brake she applied, how sensitive she is to do that just up to the point of losing traction. Fourth, is how much grip and tread is on her tires, how basically grippy or sticky they are. Fifth, in the rain or slippery conditions, you have to adjust, not apply the front and rear brake "as she always does". You have to anticipate what's going to happen and react/ adjust to it before it happens. And Sixth, most importantly, she didn't lose it by releasing the rear brake once the back end started to skid and slide all over the place. If the rear wheel regained traction had she let the brake off, she could have had a highside crash.

September 19th, 2010, 06:53 PM	#9
min nin ninjette.org member Name: terry Location: SW fla Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2007 250r Posts: 94	I have found that it also helps to have the clutch out in gear. It is harder to lock the wheel when the engine is helping.

September 20th, 2010, 02:25 PM	#11
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	The Dunlop 501s that came on the 08s were relatively decent tires in comparison the the tires that came on later year ninjettes. At this point, I would check the tire pressures and attribute what happened to wet road conditions and most likely pilot error on being unfamiliar with the braking characteristics of the bike. Practice, practice, practice is the best teacher.

September 20th, 2010, 09:03 PM	#12
awesome_r6 ninjette.org member Name: Craig Location: jackson Join Date: Aug 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 R6 Posts: 34	Thanks everyone...I kinda didn't want to buy new tires but would if I had to. I'm thankful for the MSF course to teach my baby girl to react in situations such as this.