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Old January 9th, 2015, 05:00 AM   #1
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Turbo install

Hi,
Here's a link to my turbo install for those interested. A new project for the new year.
Take a look.
http://swarfman64.blogspot.com/2015/...o-project.html
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/atta...1&d=1420804835
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Old January 9th, 2015, 05:38 AM   #2
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Old January 9th, 2015, 06:06 AM   #3
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Old January 9th, 2015, 06:42 AM   #4
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When will we see dyno numbers!
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Old January 9th, 2015, 12:56 PM   #5
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Old January 9th, 2015, 01:26 PM   #6
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Old January 9th, 2015, 03:06 PM   #7
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Quote:
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When will we see dyno numbers!
lol, dyno sheet will follow..... But I gota finish building the dyno first
Guess I'll do a build blog for it too.
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Old January 9th, 2015, 03:36 PM   #8
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Awesome man! Looking forward to that dyno!

Btw nice EFI conversion!
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Old January 9th, 2015, 08:06 PM   #9
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Sweet build. I want to hear that WG dump. What are you planning on going with? I know Turbosmart is in your neck of the woods. I run their 38mm wg on the racecar. Any idea of a wideband you're going to use and where you're going to mount it? What injectors will you use? The ones off the 300?
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Old January 10th, 2015, 03:35 PM   #10
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I have just updated my blog to Jan 10 and added dates to sections so its a little easier to re-visit.
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Old January 10th, 2015, 03:47 PM   #11
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Quote:
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Sweet build. I want to hear that WG dump. What are you planning on going with? I know Turbosmart is in your neck of the woods. I run their 38mm wg on the racecar. Any idea of a wideband you're going to use and where you're going to mount it? What injectors will you use? The ones off the 300?
I'm just dumping from the turbine housing through a short pipe,unrestricted. Wast gate is built in.
Yes the 300 injectors at this stage, they will do fine to get the thing running.
I guess it will depend on my will (wallet) to try for big HP. For now its about building a good reliable conversion.
I have the Ecotrons ALM unit. It can be integrated into the ecu and log map data, then software is used to overlay that data over your base map. Clever stuff. You can see the wideband is about 75mm from the turbine outlet angled across the front of the crankcase.
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Old January 13th, 2015, 04:53 AM   #12
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Well it goes! 10 day build, now for the huge job of tuning. Blog updated and very short video on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8ZXoO7qH_Q
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Old January 13th, 2015, 05:03 AM   #13
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What me fascinates the most besides the speed is the beauty of the build - congratulations
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Old January 13th, 2015, 05:28 AM   #14
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Awsome job. Can't wait to see more progress
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Old January 13th, 2015, 05:30 AM   #15
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Smile

Quote:
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What me fascinates the most besides the speed is the beauty of the build - congratulations
Thanks heaps. I play with steel all day every day and it seems to love me back.
Ill be happy when the tune is finalised and I can ride it without hassle.
Ill try and do a blog on the dyno build very soon for those interested.
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Old January 13th, 2015, 06:44 AM   #16
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Man you put my few month long build to shame!!! I wish I could have gotten my stuff together as quick as yours!

Looking awesome!
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Old January 13th, 2015, 09:02 AM   #17
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Make a few more headers, im sure you can find some buyers
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Old January 13th, 2015, 09:29 AM   #18
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Make a few more headers, im sure you can find some buyers
hmm...
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Old January 13th, 2015, 10:48 AM   #19
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Old January 17th, 2015, 06:08 AM   #20
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Quick update, The short exhaust is way too loud for the street, I thought the turbo would quieten it down but not nearly enough. I'v built a new system from the turbo back. 1.75 inch into a straight through muffler. Really nice smooth note and painted black, looks much nicer. Updated on blog
Still waiting for Ecotrons support with the Procal files. Oh....and I've got an '09 engine that's done 700km on its way, Ill prep it for boost in my spare time.
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Old January 17th, 2015, 07:09 AM   #21
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That still looks great! Yeah the dump pipe I have on my turbo 250 is loud but I won't be street riding lol
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Old January 20th, 2015, 05:37 AM   #22
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Update

Got my files from Ecotrons yesterday. All went well and I have begun basic tuning. Boost comes on around 4000 revs but I'm limited to 6 PSI because of poor ignition. Coil upgrade next. Had some BOV flutter in the transition from deceleration to acceleration so I've fitted a heavier spring and that seems to have fixed it. I also had the rising rate REG "T'd" off the BOV line so the fuel pressure went mad from the pulses in the line during flutter.
during my very limited testing and tuning I can see this is going to be a great street bike, giving the ninja a bucket load of torque. EGT at moderate (less than 25%) throttle was 1050deg.
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Old January 20th, 2015, 06:25 AM   #23
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Awesome!

Hey what kind of timing is ecotrons running?
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Old January 20th, 2015, 06:46 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garth285 View Post
Awesome!

Hey what kind of timing is ecotrons running?
Timing I think is way off, Basic a standard map with a few Deg taken off over about 6500 rpm. I'm going to see if they can do me a pressure retard map, to me it seams the simplest way. Start with the known STD map and just reduce in direct relation to boost.
From what I understand the turbo capable ninja kit from Ecotrons doesn't have any solid maps to go with it, it's all under development......looks like by me! It's almost 1:00 in the morning here and I'm researching stick coils and othe alternatives, man I got it bad.
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Old January 20th, 2015, 06:48 AM   #25
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Racer X is using Takai coils.

would you be willing to post the timing chart online here? I'd like to compare to mine

Or let me know what degree's they are running at WOT?
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Old January 20th, 2015, 04:21 PM   #26
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Here's a photo of the supplied ignition file. Again there is no evidence that this is a good known ignition MAP.I still believe a pressure retard MAP is the most useful, It directly relates to manifold pressure so changes like turbo types, valve timing and piping (things that can change the time and amount of boost at specific RPM) are compensated for without re mapping. I'm looking at about a 1.5DEG per psi reduction in timing.
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File Type: jpg IMG_4134.jpg (205.9 KB, 14 views)
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Old January 20th, 2015, 05:45 PM   #27
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That is a good map for naturally asperated engines. For the turbo about three to five less
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Old January 20th, 2015, 06:00 PM   #28
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Have you used a map similar? With the vz turbo?
Its only early days in tuning but it seems a little advanced around 4000 and up. Boost is well stared by then. If I could log an actual boost map it would be easier to alter this map in the boost areas. That's why I'd like the simplicity of a boost/rpm retard map
I've asked Ecotrons about the coil driving capability of there ECU and I'm waiting a reply. I hope it is going to be happy driving a 1.5 ohm coil (stick coil) without burning out long term(factory is 3 ohm).
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Old January 20th, 2015, 06:43 PM   #29
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I have used a map similar to that for motors without nitrous. I have the same basic mat but drop to 32 deg after 10000. That is when the nitrous comes in.

I use stick coils from Takai. Don't know the ohm on them but they worked with the Ecotrons system
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Old January 20th, 2015, 07:32 PM   #30
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For information this is the ninja 300 timing chart. From 6 grand and up I put the timing at 30* I tried 25* and no change with my 9,600-10,000rpm limiter im getting. The stock 08 250 is supposed to have 34* timing I believe

I did just change a setting in the ECU and I'm going to give it a try tomorrow. The Woolich software lets you combine both maps so you only have to make your tuning adjustments once and not for each cylinder. Going to see if maybe its not a ECU hangup.

Keep up the good work you guys!
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Old January 20th, 2015, 07:40 PM   #31
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I was just looking in the manuals. Figured I'd share....

The 88-07 250 shows max timing of 38*
The 08-12 250 shows max timing of 35*
The Ninja 300 shows max timing of 31*
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Old January 20th, 2015, 07:56 PM   #32
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Here's the information about ignition from the new-gen from what I have
The values of the Thai-Version are from the ecu and the ignition of my Ninja is advanced by 5 degrees, the others are informations I found in the net

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Old January 21st, 2015, 06:12 PM   #33
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Thanks for the info' guys. I'm trying a timing map tonight. Basically stock but reducing to 30deg as load and rpm increase. Ran separate wire/fuse/relay directly from battery to coils, Made a marked difference. Did some tuning last night only up to 25% throttle and 9 psi, around 950 deg egt. This is going to make a fast and light street bike! Its got so much torque from 4000 rpm that I'll have to do a major gearing change to use it properly.
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Old January 22nd, 2015, 04:59 AM   #34
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Hmmmm, Im getting some serious compressor surge, I think. I'm just checking the preload on the wast gate first but I'm getting pulsing/flutter under moderate throttle. Sounds like comp surge to me. It boosts about 7psi on 100kmh cruise at 1200 deg EGT and a rich 13:1AFR. I'm actually thinking this turbo is a little on the small side. No mapping until I sort the pulsing
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Old January 22nd, 2015, 05:20 AM   #35
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Hmmmm, Im getting some serious compressor surge, I think. I'm just checking the preload on the wast gate first but I'm getting pulsing/flutter under moderate throttle. Sounds like comp surge to me. It boosts about 7psi on 100kmh cruise at 1200 deg EGT and a rich 13:1AFR. I'm actually thinking this turbo is a little on the small side. No mapping until I sort the pulsing
Andrew, one word about AFR, 13.1:1 for a turbo normally should be a little bit to lean, since the optimal rich AFR for a naturally aspirated engine is a 13.23:1 value.
For a turbo at least you'll be better in the range of 11.5 - 11.8:1 AFR, but when you're changing it then go stepwise like 0.3 to keep it a little bit in the 'soft' range.
Good luck
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Old January 22nd, 2015, 05:46 AM   #36
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Andrew, one word about AFR, 13.1:1 for a turbo normally should be a little bit to lean, since the optimal rich AFR for a naturally aspirated engine is a 13.23:1 value.
For a turbo at least you'll be better in the range of 11.5 - 11.8:1 AFR, but when you're changing it then go stepwise like 0.3 to keep it a little bit in the 'soft' range.
Good luck
I'm mapping load values at 12:1 but no load cruise was 13.1. I should be able to run no load cruise at 14.7. Problem is no load cruise the turbo is still boosting to 7 psi. I haven't had a turbo set up that boosted under no load at cruise rpm before (I'm guessing under 10% throttle opening). Usually cruise is still vacuum until throttle is increased, that's why I'm thinking the turbine wheel/housing is undersize. I've back cut turbine wheels befor for similar reasons but not this extreme.
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Old January 22nd, 2015, 06:17 AM   #37
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I'm mapping load values at 12:1 but no load cruise was 13.1. I should be able to run no load cruise at 14.7. Problem is no load cruise the turbo is still boosting to 7 psi. I haven't had a turbo set up that boosted under no load at cruise rpm before (I'm guessing under 10% throttle opening). Usually cruise is still vacuum until throttle is increased, that's why I'm thinking the turbine wheel/housing is undersize. I've back cut turbine wheels befor for similar reasons but not this extreme.
Ah thank you, I'd misunderstand.
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Old January 22nd, 2015, 06:18 AM   #38
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What RPM's is it doing it at? My bike cruises with boost as well but I've got it even in the 14.5:1 AFR range and its alright.

Have you dont any WOT runs yet? I wonder if these turbos arent going to cut it? Maybe thats why my bike is only getting to 9600-10,000 and cutting out.

The odd thing is is the boost pressures are fine up until it breaks up... Even on the 26pisi runs!
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Old January 22nd, 2015, 06:43 AM   #39
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Cruise is 7600 rpm that's at 100kmh (our speed limit). The surge/ flutter happens from about 4500 rpm, sometimes it is a continuation from deceleration flutter that transitions into acceleration. Other times boost may be stable during beginning of acceleration then as boot increases the flutter comes in. Mine will start boost at 3500 rpm, 6PSI by 4200 at under 25% throttle. I'm not condemning it yet but It looks way too small. If it can boost that well at low rpm it's got to pass a lot more exhaust gas by 13000rpm. It's boosting at throttle openings I'd expect no boost at.
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Old January 22nd, 2015, 08:05 AM   #40
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Mine is running simliar boost levels on cruise... hmmmm. whats your timing around that area?
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