Upshifting - clutch or clutchless?

[ally99]

This poll pertains to upshifting only, but I do know that many of you probably clutchless downshift as well and would love to hear your thoughts on it. I would also like to hear when you use clutch vs. clutchless shifting, in what types of situations you choose one type over the other, reasons, etc. Thanks! :-) Happy almost Friday!

[ally99]

Oops, forgot to tell my experience with it. :-)
When my hubby taught me how to ride, he actually started by teaching me to upshift without using the clutch, but by briefly letting off the throttle a bit and shifting up nearly simultaneously. Until my MSF class about 2 months later, I never used the clutch except to downshift, however, when I learned the clutch, I liked it better. I began to predominately use the clutch when upshifting because I hit fewer false neutrals. Now I use clutchless when accelerating quickly, such as to pass a car or two, but I'm mostly a clutch girl. I've never had enough mettle to try clutchless downshifting.

[fujimumu]

I wouldn't try to downshift without the clutch unless my clutch lever fell off or the cable snapped or something like that. The only time I upshift without the clutch is when I'm first in line off a red light and I have the whole highway in front of me to go WOT.

[Cuongism]

I have small hands so I generally clutchless upshift from 2nd to 6th (I'll use the clutch from 1st to second to avoid hitting neutral). I have my clutch adjusted so it engages about halfway instead of three quarters. I also feel like clutchless is smoother if done correctly. I think living in San Diego also influences the clutchless shifting since there's so many bikers and I'm constantly waving (75% of my riding is probably one handed).
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[spooph]

Awesome!

I usually only shift without the clutch when I'm riding one handed. It's so natural for me to use the clutch. So either when I'm relaxing on the bike, or am too lazy to reach down to the clutch, etc,etc... Usually when things are going easy. Traffic, commuting, etc... Which seems to be the predominant setting these days... I know, tis a tragedy...

When I start hitting the canyons at speed, and accuracy is of the essence, I tend to lean on the clutch a bit to make everything smooth (don't want to jerk that rear tire and end up sliding off the road you know).

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by fujimumu

The only time I upshift without the clutch is when I'm first in line off a red light and I have the whole highway in front of me to go WOT.

have you considered instead of dropping the throttle, leaving it WOT and tapping the clutch with the shifter pressed (and potentially letting the engine bounce off the rev limiter for one cycle while the clutch is in and its shifting) and then immediately dropping that tiny amount of clutch? as the clutch trys to engage, you'll be about 2k rpm above the wheel, so you get a little shot of engine momentum straight to the wheel. if you do it right it gives you a nice little wheelie...

[k1prototype]

During my ARC class, the instructors advised us that clutchless up shifting actually does less damage then using the clutch. The big thing though is doing the upshift's correctly otherwise you can do more harm then good.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by k1prototype

During my ARC class, the instructors advised us that clutchless up shifting actually does less damage then using the clutch. The big thing though is doing the upshift's correctly otherwise you can do more harm then good.

This is also what Lee Parks states in his book, "Total Control"...I believe Keith Code mentions it as well.

[JeffM]

Rarely

[tinng321]

I've never upshift w/o using the clutch.
I'll have to try this when I get home today.
Why would upshifting w/o the clutch be less damaging than using the clutch?

[Cuongism]

Originally Posted by tinng321

I've never upshift w/o using the clutch.
I'll have to try this when I get home today.
Why would upshifting w/o the clutch be less damaging than using the clutch?

It'll be less wear on your clutch because you're not using it (clutches are still fairly cheap to replace). Also, when done correctly, the shift is almost instant (like an automatic). You preload the shifter, simultaneously roll off gas/upshift/roll on gas. Less movement in your rpm and a lot smoother.
Posted via Mobile Device

[k1prototype]

Originally Posted by tinng321

I've never upshift w/o using the clutch.
I'll have to try this when I get home today.
Why would upshifting w/o the clutch be less damaging than using the clutch?

I don't remember the exact mechanics behind it but if I were to speculate I believe it has something to do with pressure of having the engine and transmission disengage when you use the clutch. I could be completely wrong however.

As far as how to do it? Here is how. Try it out from 2nd to 3rd for example. Open the throttle like normal after you get into second and when you are getting ready to go into third do the following. Push up on the shift lever like you normally would. As far as pressure, you just trying to nudge it not force it. Then back off the throttle a quarter turn and you will feel it snick into the next gear. Be advised it may be a bit jerky however.

Next time around, try to just tap the clutch as you are doing it and it should be really smooth.

[CZroe]

Never upshifted without the clutch, but I've noticed that maintaining a little pressure on top of the shift pedal causes it to downshift automatically when the engine reaches the right speed (lower than I would expect).

[fujimumu]

Originally Posted by alex.s

have you considered instead of dropping the throttle, leaving it WOT and tapping the clutch with the shifter pressed (and potentially letting the engine bounce off the rev limiter for one cycle while the clutch is in and its shifting) and then immediately dropping that tiny amount of clutch? as the clutch trys to engage, you'll be about 2k rpm above the wheel, so you get a little shot of engine momentum straight to the wheel. if you do it right it gives you a nice little wheelie...

No, I've never thought about that. Perhaps I'll give it a try!

[edbro]

Only during WOT.

[onetruevibe]

I've never considered shifting clutchless on my MC - granted I'm a noob and hadn't considered much of anything until about two months ago.

After reading this thread the other day, I went out and gave it a shot - pretty smooth.

What are the risks/rewards of shifting clutchless? If you don't need the clutch for up-shifting, then why use it?

Edit: I think I found some answers in other related threads - thanks, though.

[k1prototype]

Originally Posted by onetruevibe

Edit: I think I found some answers in other related threads - thanks, though.[/I]

Could you post links to those threads?

[Alex]

[littledog]

I was actually thinking of posting in some sub forum or another asking if no-clutch up-shifting is potentially damaging to the transmission.

I had read someplace that this is possible ( and down-shifting too) and had accidentally up-shifted without the clutch a few times.

Once I realized how this works, I experiment with it a bit. It seemed that up-shifting without the clutch between the higher gears (like 4 to 5 and 5 to 6) is potentially smoother than up-shifting with the clutch. Logically, smooth operation is generally not bad for the machinery.

After reading all the stuff posted here, I guess I am not imagining this.

[almost40]

I never use the clutch to upshift. the transmission is designed to be clutchless on the upshift.

YOU MUST USE IT TO DOWNSHIFT. thats the way the thing was built.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by almost40

YOU MUST USE IT TO DOWNSHIFT. thats the way the thing was built.

Never say never! My hubby does clutchless downshift quite often.

[almost40]

do as your buddie does and dont call me when you have to push your bike home....that is if you can.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by almost40

do as your buddie does and dont call me when you have to push your bike home....that is if you can.

LOL! Didn't say I did it, nor did I say my buddy did it. :-) It's worked for hubby for years and luckily, I've never had to worry about calling you to help push the bike home. :-)

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by almost40

I never use the clutch to upshift. the transmission is designed to be clutchless on the upshift.

YOU MUST USE IT TO DOWNSHIFT. thats the way the thing was built.

That's not what the manual says. It says very explicitly that, in the event that you need to (clutch cable breaking, for example), that you can. As it is, downshifting is the ONLY kind of clutchless shifting I even know how to do. You just have to put some pressure on the shifter as you slow down and, when the RPMs are right, it will slip right in. The right speed is probably much lower than you would expect... under 25MPH in 6th gear on stock gearing.

[ninjabrewer]

oopps, I always use the clutch when shifting, wither up or down. I figured there is a reason that it is there. But I accidentally hit the always button.

nb

[almost40]

ok lol the manual say never clutchless upshift on every bike. Thats how they get you into the shop for a new clutch. The manual says not to exceed 4000 rpms during break-in for the first 500 miles and 6000 for the next 500. Did you follow that advice too? How about the zinger that says you can go 600 miles on your original oil with all those metal shavings floating around in the engine and gear box?? How about going 7500 miles before you check your air filter? Sounds like great advice to me. NOT. ALL Japanes sport bike are designed to be clutchless upshifted. They are not designed to be clutchless on the downshift. Yes you can do it in a pinch. Hell ive done it once or twice. If you want your transmission to live a good full life I wouldnt recomend it.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by almost40

ok lol the manual say never clutchless upshift on every bike. Thats how they get you into the shop for a new clutch. The manual says not to exceed 4000 rpms during break-in for the first 500 miles and 6000 for the next 500. Did you follow that advice too? How about the zinger that says you can go 600 miles on your original oil with all those metal shavings floating around in the engine and gear box?? How about going 7500 miles before you check your air filter? Sounds like great advice to me. NOT. ALL Japanes sport bike are designed to be clutchless upshifted. They are not designed to be clutchless on the downshift. Yes you can do it in a pinch. Hell ive done it once or twice. If you want your transmission to live a good full life I wouldnt recomend it.

Kevin, I thought you did track days. I have only used the clutch to upshift (on the track) during a slow warm up lap. I never use the clutch during hard acceleration (which is very rare).

How does not using the clutch (clutchless shifting) result in needing a new clutch. I can see transmission problems (shift forks, gear teeth) when clutchless shifting but I have never have a clutch failure in 28 years of full throttle clutchless upshifting.

[almost40]

It was a response to the previous post. If you use the clutch all the time it will wear out faster. Hence the trip to the shop for a new clutch. Guess it wasnt spelled out very well now was it?

[spooph]

easy there killers...

The clutch is designed to be a physical disconnect between the engine and the transmission. Period.

The transmission is designed to offer various gear ratios to increase or decrease speed beyond the engine's power.

The engine is designed to provide propulsion.

How you use each one of these particulars is up to you.

If you find that clutch-less shifting, up or down isn't smooth, use the clutch. If you find it's smoother and faster for you not to use the clutch, don't. If you're smooth, and regardless of technique, the bike isn't lurching, grinding or exhibiting any one or multiples of a multitude of symptoms, everything is dandy...

No one person can tell another: "Don't/ Do clutchless-shift in situations A, B and C, but not in situation D".

I for one can seamlessly shift up or down without the clutch, and even INTO neutral, but not back into gear from a standstill.

I however, do use the clutch, because I find I can shifter FASTER, read SMOOTHER using the clutch. That's how my muscles respond to my brain....

Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast.

I also recommend all riders to figure out how to clutchless shift, starting in the lower RPM's and practice going higher and higher in the revs. It's just one more way to get more comfortable with the bike, and could be a handy skill to know in an emergency.

Trust your instincts. If the bike is making a noise you think it shouldn't, then have it checked out. But if everything is operating smoothly, go for it.

Parts wear out, that's why they make replacement parts. For instance, I've gone through 4 sets of front brake pads, and 1 set of rears. 4 rear tires, and 3 fronts. 1 set of fork seals. 2 chains. It's OK, it's part of the game. It's what I've had to pay for 30K + miles. If you don't like it, don't drive the bike....

ally99, good on you! One day I want to go ride with you and your hubby. You guys sound like fun!

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by almost40

ok lol the manual say never clutchless upshift on every bike. Thats how they get you into the shop for a new clutch. The manual says not to exceed 4000 rpms during break-in for the first 500 miles and 6000 for the next 500. Did you follow that advice too? How about the zinger that says you can go 600 miles on your original oil with all those metal shavings floating around in the engine and gear box?? How about going 7500 miles before you check your air filter? Sounds like great advice to me. NOT. ALL Japanes sport bike are designed to be clutchless upshifted. They are not designed to be clutchless on the downshift. Yes you can do it in a pinch. Hell ive done it once or twice. If you want your transmission to live a good full life I wouldnt recomend it.

The manual says that you CAN shift without the clutch. It doesn't specify "upshift" and it doesn't say not to do one or the other either. The implication was to do it in an emergency with a non-functional clutch but, still, it's very different than what you say it says. Only upshifting doesn't help much if you have no functional clutch.

As for clutchless down shifting... how are you doing it? The way I do it, it doesn't feel like it harms the engine at all. At VERY low speeds, it "goes" when the engine lets it go and it slides right in with no real "lurch." You can apply similar upwards pressure to the pedal and upshifting the same way will not work, which is why I have never upshifted clutchlessly.

Downshift method: as you slow down in 6th gear, put some downward pressure on the shifter and maintain it; when the bike reaches somewhere between 21-25MPH indicated (stock gearing), it will simply slide down into 5th. Almost immediately it will be able to slide into 4th, 3rd, and so on, so re-apply the pressure immediately to be ready for it.

[spooph]

CZ, try this out and post what you've found. This is how I clutchless-shift:

in any gear, going up or down, accelerate for a brief moment, then let off the gas, and quickly shift, up or down. I recommend to try this around 4,000RPM and 4th or 5th gear to begin with. The first few shifts will be a bit jerky, but after that, you'll figure out how much to let off the throttle, and how quickly to shift. What you'll find, is the faster the engine is turning, the faster you have shift after letting off the throttle.

How/why does this work? as you accelerate, the entire power train is placed under strain. When you let off, it frees everything up for a brief second before inertia takes over and places the bike+ rider's weight back onto the power train, now slowing it down (engine braking). The shift should happen in that golden moment where the moto isn't accelerating, nor decelerating.

Note: shifting up, quickly roll of the throttle, shift and back on the throttle. Shifting down, sometimes simply "blipping" the throttle after the roll-off will yield a very smooth and perfect rev-match.

If anybody wants me to get more in-depth with this stuff, just let me know.

[ally99]

M,
We plan to ride in CO one day. :-) We'll look you up!

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by spooph

CZ, try this out and post what you've found. This is how I clutchless-shift:

in any gear, going up or down, accelerate for a brief moment, then let off the gas, and quickly shift, up or down. I recommend to try this around 4,000RPM and 4th or 5th gear to begin with. The first few shifts will be a bit jerky, but after that, you'll figure out how much to let off the throttle, and how quickly to shift. What you'll find, is the faster the engine is turning, the faster you have shift after letting off the throttle.

How/why does this work? as you accelerate, the entire power train is placed under strain. When you let off, it frees everything up for a brief second before inertia takes over and places the bike+ rider's weight back onto the power train, now slowing it down (engine braking). The shift should happen in that golden moment where the moto isn't accelerating, nor decelerating.

Note: shifting up, quickly roll of the throttle, shift and back on the throttle. Shifting down, sometimes simply "blipping" the throttle after the roll-off will yield a very smooth and perfect rev-match.

If anybody wants me to get more in-depth with this stuff, just let me know.

I had planned to research it later when I had the time but I went ahead and tried it with your method and it worked great for shifting up and down. Thanks! If my clutch lever/cable ever breaks, I know how to shift down easily with my old method and either way at nearly any speed/RPM with yours. Thanks!

[bdavison]

One other thing.....if you dont know how to upshift clutchless correctly....you can do a lot of damage to your bike.

Bent shift forks, gored out shift drums, and chewed up dogs to say the least.
Unless you intend to clean out metal bits from your oil screen....stick to the clutch.

[Cedilla]

I practiced clutchless shifting up and down to the point that I could do it well, then I pretty much stopped because I just use the clutch out of habit, and Its still a bit jerky down shifting without the clutch.

[kenji_808]

I personally do both clutch and clutchless shifitng. It just depends on how im feeling and the situation.

For me Clutchless shifting seems to be the smoothest when your at least racking the throttle beyond half way and above 7000 rpm anything less will have a real jerky clanky shift (of course when shifting and left off the throttle fully unless WOT where its just a slight let off)

I Did a little research on the myth that "CLUTCH-LESS" shifting is bad for our transmissions but if you just google Manual Sequential Transmissions which 99% of motorcycle use this type of transmission.
Manual Sequential transmissions are "DESIGNED" for the user to shift "WITHOUT" using clutch unless starting from the stationary position.

F1,Rally, and most racde cars use this type of transmissions, although paddle shifters they have clutch pedals for use from the stationary.

Modern mass produced vehicles with paddle shifter transmissions don't utilize MANUAL sequential transmissions but rather an automatic transmission with the an option for user inputed gear changes

[kkim]

Originally Posted by kenji_808

I Did a little research on the myth that "CLUTCH-LESS" shifting is bad for our transmissions but if you just google Manual Sequential Transmissions which 99% of motorcycle use this type of transmission.
Manual Sequential transmissions are "DESIGNED" for the user to shift "WITHOUT" using clutch unless starting from the stationary position.

If our transmissions are DESIGNED to be shifted without the use of the clutch, can you explain why the manufactures' owners manuals say to use the clutch when shifting gears? Not doubting your word on research, but if what you've found pertains to all motorcycle transmissions and it is an inherent design to not use the clutch except from a stop, why is it they advise you to use the clutch between shifts?

I can shift up or down w/o the use of the clutch on a motorcycle but know if any of those shifts are not perfect, the wear and tear that missed shift can cause is not worth the ease of not pulling in the clutch lever, so I choose to use it for every shift.

[Domagoj]

Originally Posted by kkim

If our transmissions are DESIGNED to be shifted without the use of the clutch, can you explain why the manufactures' owners manuals say to use the clutch when shifting gears? Not doubting your word on research, but if what you've found pertains to all motorcycle transmissions and it is an inherent design to not use the clutch except from a stop, why is it they advise you to use the clutch between shifts?

I can shift up or down w/o the use of the clutch on a motorcycle but know if any of those shifts are not perfect, the wear and tear that missed shift can cause is not worth the ease of not pulling in the clutch lever, so I choose to use it for every shift.

Well said.
By using a clutch you disconnect the engine from the wheels, and therefore disconnect the torque produced by the engine and torque produced by the wheels (which is here from the kinetic energy of the moving object on these wheels). If these 2 torques were exactly the same, there would be no use for the clutch at all.

When clutch-less shifting, what you do by "rolling off" the gas is actually trying to synchronize the inertial torque and engine torque by lowering the rpm of the engine to the value which is expected in the next gear while bike is going at the given speed. But this increases the load on the synchronizers in the gearbox, and makes the shift "jerky", unless you make it perfect. As far as i know the synchros are some sort of frictional device, so the principle is same as with the clutch - something is rubbing against something else.

On the other hand, if you use the clutch, and sync the engine rpm with the gear rpm, your clutch is not suffering that much (keep in mind that it was made for what it does), and your syncros in the gearbox are suffering only the load of the inertial torque of the spinning shaft with the gears on it. This gives a nice and smooth shift with the use of the clutch.

Finally, you can be really bad to your clutch by doing poor job synchronizing engine and bike speed. This wears the clutch the most, if it must handle a large difference between the two.

[kenji_808]

The reason why you have the intermittent pause in throttle or torque is to allow the dog gears not synchromesh gears (as in a car) to engage.

Basically that's the reason why there is no grinding of gears on a bike because there are no synchromesh gears to grind, the gears just go to the next gear.

The synchromesh gears just match rpm's of the next gears "gears" prior to the engagement. There basically a clutch for the gears themselves.

[Domagoj]

Originally Posted by kenji_808

The reason why you have the intermittent pause in throttle or torque is to allow the dog gears not synchromesh gears (as in a car) to engage.

Basically that's the reason why there is no grinding of gears on a bike because there are no synchromesh gears to grind, the gears just go to the next gear.

The synchromesh gears just match rpm's of the next gears "gears" prior to the engagement. There basically a clutch for the gears themselves.

You are right, motorcycle gearboxes have dog gears.
the rest of the stuff is more or less correct though