Should we change oil early during break-in? The answer is YES!!!

[dubojr1]

So... Just some quick history.

I purchased a 2008 250R for my wife to ride. A year or so has past now and I've also purchased a 2009 250R SE for myself. Break-in was done on her 08 per the manufacturer specs and the first service completed at 500 miles using Kawi oil and filter.

After buying the 09 and doing some research here on the forums I decided to change my oil in the 09 early on as most were recommending it. I wondered if changing the oil early was going to really be helpful. Boy am I glad I did!!!

I decided to go ahead and service the oil on both bikes while all the tools and supplies were out. The filters on the 2 machines are the same Kawasaki filter so we should be able to assume the filtration was the same for both bikes. As I said earlier, the 08 was serviced at the recommended 500 miles and all parts were dealer provided genuine Kawi supplies. The filters that I removed from these 2 machines has forever changed my view on break in maintenance and has really answered some of my questions. Pictures tell the story...

Here are the filter side by side no camera flash. 2008 filter to the left, 2009 to the right:



Again with full flash with the 2008 filter to the left and 2009 to the right:



Just wanted to show that both filters are the same Kawi filters:



2008 250R with 1,958 current miles. First service completed at 500 miles per Kawasaki:



2009 250R SE with 152 miles:



So what do you guys and gals think? Is this as big of deal as it appears? I think it is safe to say that the darker color of the filter from the 2009 can only be from the break in metals from the engine being filtered out.

Also for anyone interested, I would be happy to provide the original high quality photo's for review. Just drop me a PM with an email I could forward them to.

BTW... Did I mention I love my Nikon D40!!!

[kkim]

dunno... maybe the oil from the factory has a dye in it that leaves the filter darker? Unless you back flush the oil filter and filter out the residue, you have no idea what is causing the darker color.

Having said that, I'm a believer in frequent oil/filter changes during break in. I changed mine 3 times in the first 600 miles.

[QuarterBoreNinja]

Excellent pictures!

Break-in maintenance is crucial and like kkim, I'm a big believer in frequent oil changes, I typically do the first oil/filter change at 20 miles. By 1k miles the oil and filters have been changed 6 times. Repeated oil/filter changes and a proper 'MotoMan' break-in are the keys to engine longevity and power gains...

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by kkim

dunno... maybe the oil from the factory has a dye in it that leaves the filter darker? Unless you back flush the oil filter and filter out the residue, you have no idea what is causing the darker color.

Yeah I see your point. I'm not really sure how to pull that off though. I'm sure I could come up with something. However, I think it would be just as easy and safer to just change it frequently during break in.

[austexjg]

What are the possible consequences of not changing the oil early in the break-in procedure? I bought the bike with 1500 miles - owner had not done the initial oil change at 600. Changed it at 1500 to synthetic (with filter), but have not done the second oil change yet. I thought changing the oil too frequently was not encouraged. I read that somewhere.

Questions:
1. Possible problems with only one oil change with 3000 miles on bike?
2. Possible damage sustained by not changing the oil unit 1500 for the first time?
3. With these factors -should I buy the GTPP warranty before my bike turns one?

[dubojr1]

Well I'm not sure I agree with switching over to synthetic so early but thats just my opinion.

Question for you... How much do you ride? Miles per year?

This will help answer some of your questions.

[stealth250]

It's normal during initial break-in to have metal "dust" in the oil filter, as all of the parts are developing a wear pattern with each other. The more time the engine has on it, the less you will see. Also consider that the transmission is part of the engine oil system as well, and you are also breaking it in at the same time.
As for frequent oil changes, I changed mine every 200 miles until I got to 1,000, then I have done every 1,500 since then. I my opinion, you can't change it often enough. Clean oil = happy engine.

[M.J.M.]

Frequency is the key. I change oil every 100mi. with Thrifty Lube reclaimed oil. $0.89 a quart. I also add Z-Max additive every 500mi. I've got 46000mi. and not a single problem.

[Xoulrath]

You can change oil too frequently. It isn't going to hurt the engine, but you are just throwing away money, especially where synthetic is involved.

Break-in oil changes are of course different, but changing the oil five times isn't going to noticeably protect your engine any better than changing it two times in the first 1,000 miles. Oil works by suspending particles within the oil, keeping those metal shavings from causing all sorts of problems.

Oil under typical running conditions will not lose its viscosity so quickly that it can't do its job for 500 miles. Of course, some people will argue differently on the matter. A quick Google will give you plenty of information to make a decision to keep you satisfied that whatever choice you make regarding oil changes is safe for your vehicle. Like I said, changing your oil is never going to hurt your engine, but changing it too much will hurt your wallet.

[eccsdrei]

I was a bit lazy the first time I changed the oil in my 250 and never too any pictures of what the oil looked like. It only had 32km on it. I did this in the sun and I was a bit amazed when I saw it pour out of the engine in the sunlight. It looked like metallic paint. There were so many metal shavings in it. After I poured it in a container i touched the bottom of the pan and it felt like sanding paper.
I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't want that in my engine for 1000km like the manual says.
Then I changed it again at 350km and this time there were far less shavings in the oil.
Then another at 1000km and the last one I did was at 3000km and I switched to synthetic.
Rides very smooth.

Also I know this is a whole new topic but I rode it hard during the first 1000km.

POI
Andrei P

[JokerSeven]

I changed mine at 50, 100, 200, 400, and took it in for the first service at 600 miles.

[jonthechron]

What's up fellow Montrealer! I'm at 5300 KMs since I've been biking in early March. Yeah, that's alot of KMs in just a few months. This week I'm going to pick up some Motul 7100 fully synthetic ester and K&N filter from CT then ill see how it feels to run on synthetic.

What part of Montreal are you in?

[mrlmd]

Do you guys really think that changing oil every 100 or 200 miles is actually beneficial, or is this OCD? Like high octane gas is better? And you are changing the filter each time too? I mean, if changing the oil is a good thing, changing it 3 or 4 times as frequent as recommended is so much better? For who? I guess you want to support the oil companies.
The filter traps all the debris suspended in the oil, it's supposed too look like that, it's normal, it's doing it's job.
The frequency of oil/filter changes recommended by the manufacturer is quite sufficient, otherwise they would be getting a lot of warranty problems.
And Andrei, riding it "hard" for the break-in is not recommended, maybe that's why you have so much crap in your oil.
I don't think any of that is necessary or worthwhile, and see no difference in how my bikes, cars. lawnmowers, boats, work and perform, doing it at the prescribed intervals.
Sorry.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by mrlmd

Do you guys really think that changing oil every 100 or 200 miles is actually beneficial, or is this OCD? Like high octane gas is better? And you are changing the filter each time too? I mean, if changing the oil is a good thing, changing it 3 or 4 times as frequent as recommended is so much better? For who? I guess you want to support the oil companies.
The filter traps all the debris suspended in the oil, it's supposed too look like that, it's normal, it's doing it's job.
The frequency of oil/filter changes recommended by the manufacturer is quite sufficient, otherwise they would be getting a lot of warranty problems.
And Andrei, riding it "hard" for the break-in is not recommended, maybe that's why you have so much crap in your oil.
I don't think any of that is necessary or worthwhile, and see no difference in how my bikes, cars. lawnmowers, boats, work and perform, doing it at the prescribed intervals.
Sorry.

I understand your point but what I wanted to caution people about was the break in period. My concern was it would appear that maybe the filter was to capacity and could not continue to filter suspended particles. I'm not saying to change you oil every 100 or so miles for the duration you own your bike, only to change the oil more frequntly early on. Just my

[stealth250]

Originally Posted by mrlmd

Do you guys really think that changing oil every 100 or 200 miles is actually beneficial, or is this OCD? Like high octane gas is better? And you are changing the filter each time too? I mean, if changing the oil is a good thing, changing it 3 or 4 times as frequent as recommended is so much better? For who? I guess you want to support the oil companies.
The filter traps all the debris suspended in the oil, it's supposed too look like that, it's normal, it's doing it's job.
The frequency of oil/filter changes recommended by the manufacturer is quite sufficient, otherwise they would be getting a lot of warranty problems.
And Andrei, riding it "hard" for the break-in is not recommended, maybe that's why you have so much crap in your oil.
I don't think any of that is necessary or worthwhile, and see no difference in how my bikes, cars. lawnmowers, boats, work and perform, doing it at the prescribed intervals.
Sorry.

First of all, I'm not trying to be argumentative or an asshole, so don't read into this too much. But, how I (we, whoever) spend money is our business, and frankly it doesn't cost a whole bunch to do an oil service anyway.
Frequent changes can only benefit, since you are flushing out the old dirty oil more often in favor of clean oil and a fresh filter. I change mine every 1500 miles. I use conventional Valvoline 20w50 4 stroke oil and a Wix or NAPA filter every time. It costs relatively the same as filling the tank with gasoline.
I work in the automotive repair business and have seen countless times the difference in cars that have regular oil changes, and cars that don't. There's a HUGE difference in longevity and reliability. The new car manufacturers have gone crazy with oil change intervals. BMW and Mercedes have "all inclusive" warranties, meaning they cover everything including oil changes during the warranty period. Their interval is now 15,000 miles!!! It seems to me that they don't really care about the end result. Sure the synthetic oil will go that long, but at what long term cost? Now I realize that this hits on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, but my point is, changing oil more frequently will benefit your bike in the long term, and it isn't very expensive to do. And also, with a fresh engine where everything is mating and establishing wear patterns, there is more metal floating around in there during break-in. Changing the oil every 200 or so during the first 1000 miles of use is a good idea. After everything has "broken in", there is less metal floating around in the oil, but I still feel like changing it more often than "recommended" will benefit me in the long run. Maybe I do have OCD when it comes to oil, but it's cheap maintenance and it makes me (and my bike) happy!

[mrlmd]

I'm not trying to be argumentative or derogatory either if it came off that way, just my opinion that this is overkill and unnecessary.
We all agree that cars, bikes, whatever, that don't have regular oil changes generally fair worse than those that do, but I doubt that changing oil as frequently as mentioned here makes them fair any better than those that are done at the recommended intervals, taking out the exception for those ridden extremely hard, hot, and at sustained very high rpms. What is a better measure of the need for oil changes, and some cars have these, is an indicator of engine load, wear, average and total rpms, etc., particulate matter that gets past the filter (unlikely), as well as just recording total mileage.
And if Mercedes and BMW are warrantying their cars as well as they do, and they recommend changing oil each 15,000 miles, you think you know better then they do about how good their engines are? They are paying for the problems they get, and if they say every 15,000 miles, that sounds good enough for me and anyone else who may own one of those. How can you say they don't care? There obviously isn't any long-term cost to their advice, otherwise they would change it. Synths last that long, period.
I know people who have bikes with 80,000 and 140,000 miles who have just done routine maintenance and oil changes with no engine problems so it works both ways.
We are not talking about flat out race bikes or cars, which may be totally torn down and rebuilt after every race, we are talking about street machines.
Basically, if it makes you happy and you think it makes the bike happy, go right ahead, do what you believe is best. I don't think there is any benefit to it and you can't show me any objective evidence that there is any difference in engine longevity or power or anything else that benefits your bike in the long term in doing that, compared to the routine maintenance advice from the manufacturer. My opinion - and Mercedes, BMW, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Honda, GM, Ford, and anyone else you want to add to the list.

[stealth250]

Well, opinions are like belly buttons, everyone's got one!
But as far as the original concern for this thread, I think that very frequent oil changes during the initial break in period is a good idea just to get all of the metal out of the engine as it breaks in. Especially since you have the transmission in the equation as well. To each his own. Tomato/Tomaado!

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by stealth250

Well, opinions are like belly buttons, everyone's got one!
But as far as the original concern for this thread, I think that very frequent oil changes during the initial break in period is a good idea just to get all of the metal out of the engine as it breaks in. Especially since you have the transmission in the equation as well. To each his own. Tomato/Tomaado!

[mrlmd]

Cool, no problem, just don't want this to be a strong recommendation for anyone over and above the factory's (to change engine oil every 100 miles for break-in), then every 1500 after that. Sure it's relatively cheap, but of dubious, if any, benefit.
It's like changing your tires every 1000, 2000, 3000 miles or whatever instead of waiting 'till they wear out or die of old age. Aren't fresh tires better (after the 100 mile break-in) than higher mileage ones?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, you got mine. Just trying to be practical about the whole thing.
The end.

[Thrak]

Some of you guys are nuts... changing oil every 100 miles?? REALLY???

I'd get sick of doing an oil change every other day.

[min nin]

When the oil I drain out is metallic colored, it needed changing. And I'm glad I did'nt run it longer. Maintain it like you will own it forever.

[kevlar250]

New engine, 0 to 200 miles or so, rings not seated well, therefore more of the combustion blow-by gets past the rings. Blow-by contains soot, soot is fairly abrasive. Soot is also too small to be trapped by the oil filter. Don't leave break-in oil in for 1000 to 2000 miles! Once broke in properly the rings will seat and the stuff floating around in the oil (metal chunks & clutch dust) will be cleaned out by the filter, you can service at the factory intervals. I'd much rather spend my time riding than changing oil.

[dubojr1]

I think some are missing the point here.

The thread's intent was to let everyone know that an early on oil change would be advised due to the high content of metal particles the filter appears to have filter from the oil. Don't take this as you should continue to change your oil and filter every couple hundred miles. That is not necessary. I however would recommend a couple oil and filter changes during the first 1,000 miles and then pick up factory intervals. My

[austexjg]

Damn - I bought the bike with 1500 miles and the first oil change was not done until I did it. I wonder about possible negative side effects and what to look for in case something is wrong.

[Alex]

Nothing is wrong, but I'd definitely check the blinker fluid.

[austexjg]

Originally Posted by Alex

Nothing is wrong, but I'd definitely check the blinker fluid.

Did that after changing the spark plugs on my diesel.

[kevlar250]

I thought diesel plugs lasted the life of the motor!

[bdavison]

I change mine when it needs to be changed....
Look at the sight glass...when it starts to get dark, change it.
Its usually around 1500 miles, or so. Sometimes its early, sometimes its late....

[eccsdrei]

No offense dubojr1 but race cars are not put through an easy break in.
I did my research on the right way to do it plus a few garages in my area offer a dyno break in.
Also on the part of changing your oil sooner than what the manufacturer recommends it would not be in their interest to tell you to change oil more frequently since they wouldn't sell as many cars if your engine was always well taken care of.


POI
Andrei P

[eccsdrei]

sorry dubojr1 I meant mrlmd.

[mrlmd]

"Also on the part of changing your oil sooner than what the manufacturer recommends it would not be in their interest to tell you to change oil more frequently since they wouldn't sell as many cars if your engine was always well taken care of."

This makes absolutely no sense, is not logical, and is your opinion, as you may be entitled to.
If they warranty the engine for 100,000 miles and it fails because of their oil change interval recommendations, they would be liable for expensive repairs. Since they are not failing, and there are no expensive recalls or repairs being made, and the engines are performing reliably as they were intended with the manufacturers' recommendations, your statement is totally untrue and an example of fuzzy logic - that they want your engine to fail so they can sell you a new car.
Believe what you want, do what you want, make up your own set of rules, advice, whatever, just don't push this or promote it on others as is it of no benefit, is unnecessary, but if it makes you happy, then go right ahead and do it. It's obvious that the research you did from a few qarages in your area, where the mechanics are better informed and much smarter than the engineers in the manufacturer's engine plants, is correct and indisputable. Maybe. did you ever think, they are promoting that to you to sell you more frequent oil changes for their own personal gain? No, they would never do that.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and beliefs, right or wrong, this discussion has no end, no conclusion, when you mix facts with myth, like higher octane fuel is better for your Ninja than regular. So, again, do what you believe is best, be happy, I'm done.

And don't put words into my mouth that I didn't say, like "No offense dubojr1 but race cars are not put through an easy break in."
That is your statement, not mine, if you read what I wrote.

[min nin]

My last change was at 1200 miles. I still see some fine metal particles in the oil. Glad I got that oil out.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by eccsdrei

sorry dubojr1 I meant mrlmd.

Thanks.... I was really confused there for a moment!

[Alex]

/pics in first post updated to local album

[JMcDonald]

Originally Posted by eccsdrei

I was a bit lazy the first time I changed the oil in my 250 and never too any pictures of what the oil looked like. It only had 32km on it. I did this in the sun and I was a bit amazed when I saw it pour out of the engine in the sunlight. It looked like metallic paint. There were so many metal shavings in it. After I poured it in a container i touched the bottom of the pan and it felt like sanding paper.
I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't want that in my engine for 1000km like the manual says.
Then I changed it again at 350km and this time there were far less shavings in the oil.
Then another at 1000km and the last one I did was at 3000km and I switched to synthetic.
Rides very smooth.

Also I know this is a whole new topic but I rode it hard during the first 1000km.

POI
Andrei P

I remember observing this phenomenon BOTH when I blew the old engine in my MR2, and the first time I changed the oil in the newly-built engine. Naturally, I thought for sure the second engine was on its way out as well, but it turns out it was just cleaning itself out .


I am much more of a stickler about oil in motorcycles than in cars, because the oil also lubricates both the transmission and clutch. Dont want that stuff rubbing into my gears and clutch plates! Additionally, at 13k RPM I feel things are a little less forgiving than in a car engine running 4k max.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by kawboyCAFE

different oils have different shades. the filter is gonna look like that after 10 miles because the oils will soak into it.............duh! changing your oil early does nothing but waste oil and money. some of you people worry entirely too much about the break in oil. its oil. its not like they mixed water in it or something.

The oil in both bikes was the same...duh! I wouldn't use grey oil either...duh! What "shade" oil do you use?

[Angel-be-Good]

Originally Posted by kkim

I changed mine 3 times in the first 600 miles.

You're up to 600 miles already?

[Alex]

[kkim]

Originally Posted by Angel-be-Good

You're up to 600 miles already?

Originally Posted by Alex

[wvninja]

The pictures don't really show anything. Oil will darken with warm up and cooling off. As long as the oil did not feel gritty I very much doubt you had anything in it. Also any metal would have (suppose to have) attached to the plug.