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Old October 21st, 2014, 07:40 AM   #1
isuoboe
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Maintenance schedule excessive?

I've been riding a 2006 ninja 250 for about 2 years. When I bought it in 2012 it had 1047mi. (A girl bought it new and apparently never "got it.") I have 6000+mi. on it now. I'm looking at all the maintenance items that are supposed to be done every 2 years no matter what the mileage. (Master cylinder and caliper seals; brake fluid change; steering stem bearing lube; brake and fuel lines replaced, etc.) Does anyone actually do all this? I'm thinking about all the bikes of all types that lie around for years untouched. I'm also curious what it would cost to have this done by a dealer. (I would think you would quickly double the expense of the $3000 this bike cost new!) Fortunately, I enjoy taking things apart and reassembling them as much as using them. (Well, I guess that's debatable if it's a motorcycle--what can beat riding!!)

Thanks for any input!
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Old October 21st, 2014, 07:46 AM   #2
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You can probably let many of these things slide, but all those old bike also have old, crappy, hard rubber parts, right? Just because people neglect their bikes doesn't mean it's okay to do so.

Rubber gets hard with age regardless of mileage.

Brake fluid is hygroscopic (it absorbs water) and so will degrade with age as well, also regardless of mileage.

Dealer cost for all this stuff? No idea. I spin my own wrenches.

Think of it this way: it'll give you something to do on those long, cold winter nights.
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Old October 21st, 2014, 08:06 AM   #3
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Is the maintenance schedule excessive? No

No... why? Because it will save your life one day. How do you know when it happens? You don't! You got home safely because nothing broke, come loose or failed due to neglect.

Is the maintenance schedule excessive? Yes
It was designed in such a way to prevent failure to a fault of spending more money replacing parts than "really" needed. Some parts show the signs of wear very well and age gracefully.

Your choice to what is more important and what is acceptable risk. I will be blunt honest with you here, I find a loose/missing bolt or something or other every time I go over my bike with a fine tooth comb (ie the schedule). Just yesterday, I had to put the lower nut back on the rear shock. That would have not been pretty... ijs

EDIT: This is another one of the secrets to pulling 50k+ street miles and 100 track days without much fuss.
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Old October 21st, 2014, 09:08 AM   #4
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Welcome, Kevin !!!

The key concept here is "preventive".
That means that the manufacturer does not want safety mechanisms to be used until eventual fail.

Yes, your light bulbs may fail sooner than your brake hose, but that will not kill you and become a liability to the manufacturer.

Consider also that the manufacturer is planning on the worst conditions: excessive speed and braking, neglected lubrication, falls, excessive exposure to mud, high air humidity, sand, Sun light and rain and so on.

The farer you are from those worst conditions, the longer you can extend the time of use before replacement.

As stated above, rubber and plastic parts are degraded by contact with oxygen (there is no way around that one) and much faster by exposure to ultraviolet light (Sun).

As you may know, a part that is not working as intended starts a chain reaction, which correction is generally more costly than replacing or servicing that part opportunely.
Example: old brake fluid contains water that corrodes the internal steel and iron parts, which will reduce the proper retracting of the pistons, which will wear your pads and overheat and warp your costly brake discs.
The very same water will become steam with the heat of hard braking, limiting the amount of force applied on the pads.

Again, the manufacturer is avoiding legal and reputation problems, and is giving you the tools and tips for a happy and lasting experience.
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Old October 21st, 2014, 12:01 PM   #5
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I bought my '92 in January last year and set about replacing brakes and various other bits. I bought calipers from a 2006 model and replaced seals, same with front master cylinder.
When I removed the hoses (to be replaced with stainless braided hoses) I found the manufacture date on them was 1991.
So it shows there is a large safety margin factored into these things, but I was more than happy to be removing them. :-)
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Old October 21st, 2014, 12:33 PM   #6
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You think that's excessive, the service manual for my Husaberg calls for the piston to be changed every 45 hours! I've got almost 200 hours on it now with no engine work.
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Old October 21st, 2014, 08:05 PM   #7
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Thanks for the input. Mostly I was curious how many people out there do all these maintenance items as listed in the schedule. Unless there are inferior parts on our bikes, many of these items ought to be done with similar frequency on most vehicles, and we know that they aren't!! Of course we need an extra safety margin with 2 wheel vehicles. I am intending to use the schedule as a good excuse for spending a lot of time, and a little money, getting well acquainted with many parts of my bike!

In my original post, I did not mean to imply that bikes sitting around for years without being ridden were OK. (As someone pointed out they aren't.) Clearly, we should keep maintenance schedules in mind when bringing a bike back into service, and not assume everything is OK just because it seems to be running OK.

Hmm, I just realized how similar this maintenance is to changing a timing belt. I have changed several automobile timing belts (on schedule or a little late), and the old one always looks good enough that I feel I must be careful not to handle the new one with greasy hands or I won't be able to tell them apart. Better to replace a belt that looks new, than replace an engine whose belt got old!!

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Old October 21st, 2014, 09:05 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isuoboe View Post
Thanks for the input. Mostly I was curious how many people out there do all these maintenance items as listed in the schedule...........
You are welcome.
I do the service as scheduled, more or less.

In my experience, the most neglected thing is regular lubrication of cables, bearings, telescopic forks, caliper slides and chain.
Coincidentally, those are source of frequent breakdowns or premature wear.

This is especially important in bikes, due to the water and mud effect.
If the pivots or heads of cables are not lubricated, the constant bending will break the steel strands rapidly.

Bearings that don't rotate much need extra attention.
That is the case of the steering head, cam chain tensioner, swing arm pivot and Uni-track mechanism.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Steerin...ng_replacement

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Uni_Tra...ge_Lubrication

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Servicing_the_swingarm
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 07:50 AM   #9
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Thanks for the valuable service links! Between these and the shop manual, I should be set!
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 08:05 AM   #10
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I know this one lady who told me she put 50k miles on her pregen (I believe it was an 88 model) and she said she never once adjusted the valves, just had a shop clean her carbs once or twice and did the oil change regularly.

Not that I agree you shouldn't do the valves, but 6k seems rather low in my mind. I also heard that after you adjust them once or twice they no longer get any tighter.

As for the whole, lube all the cables every 2 years. Of course it's not necessary, but to be safe it's better to do it than not do it.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 10:24 AM   #11
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Yes the maintenance schedule is excessive. They do it to protect themselves from claims, both warranty and liability
"No you didn't change the brake seals every two years (plainly excessive) so you didn't follow the "maintenance schedule" so take a hike."
They are not your friend, they are a business and run by accountants and lawyers,they will cover their ass any way they can adding absurd clauses that they know full well very few people will follow.
You could add buried clauses to software agreements saying
17a 2.2 Our executives may have access to your holiday home free of charge any time they wish
and most people will click "Accept" without even reading it.

ps My master cylinder and calliper seals are still functioning fine after 23 years so don't worry that yours will have hardened yet. Though I do change the fluid every few years because it is hygroscopic and will get a lower boiling point over time as well as start to corrode with the absorbed moisture. It's easy enough, just keep adding fresh and squirt it through the bleed nipple till you think it is about flushed.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 02:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hero Danny View Post
Not that I agree you shouldn't do the valves, but 6k seems rather low in my mind. I also heard that after you adjust them once or twice they no longer get any tighter.
Yepp yepp, once you've done it a few times, they don't change much. Basically you can just open the engine up to check them and they should still be in spec. You should definitely keep the schedule though, because you know it shouldn't change, so if it does, you know there's something wrong.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 03:24 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isuoboe View Post
I've been riding a 2006 ninja 250 for about 2 years. When I bought it in 2012 it had 1047mi. (A girl bought it new and apparently never "got it.") I have 6000+mi. on it now. I'm looking at all the maintenance items that are supposed to be done every 2 years no matter what the mileage. (Master cylinder and caliper seals; brake fluid change; steering stem bearing lube; brake and fuel lines replaced, etc.) Does anyone actually do all this?
Some of the maintenance suggestions are excessive. My opinions:

Master cylinder and caliper seals:
Is Kawasaki insane? If seals don’t leak, they don’t need to be removed, inspected, replaced, or anything else.

Brake fluid change:
Yeah, replace it every two or three years or so: brake fluid gets skanky over time. I like to remove as much fluid as I can from the master cylinder reservoir using a syringe, then fill the reservoir with fresh BF and bleed the lines at the slave cylinder until it comes out clean-looking. Be sure to keep an eye on the MC reservoir and top it up as necessary during the bleed process so as not to let air get into the brake line.

Steering stem bearing lube:
Outrageous! If/when it gets loose or crunchy, replace the steering stem bearings with tapered roller bearings.

Brake lines replaced:
This also is nuts unless they are clearly damaged (cracked outer jacket, leaking, or expands appreciably when under pressure). Visually inspect them periodically.

Fuel line replaced:
These are not pressurized on the pre-gens. If they’re cracked or they leak, you should replace them. Otherwise, don’t worry about them.

Etc.:
You should check the valve clearance now and then. At 6k miles, you’re due. A burned valve due to insufficient clearance would be expensive and time-consuming.

You should also consider changing the coolant every few years.

Last futzed with by dcj13; October 24th, 2014 at 05:35 PM.
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Old October 24th, 2014, 09:59 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcj13 View Post
Some of the maintenance suggestions are excessive. My opinions:

Master cylinder and caliper seals:
Is Kawasaki insane? If seals don’t leak, they don’t need to be removed, inspected, replaced, or anything else.

Brake fluid change:
Yeah, replace it every two or three years or so: brake fluid gets skanky over time. I like to remove as much fluid as I can from the master cylinder reservoir using a syringe, then fill the reservoir with fresh BF and bleed the lines at the slave cylinder until it comes out clean-looking. Be sure to keep an eye on the MC reservoir and top it up as necessary during the bleed process so as not to let air get into the brake line.

Steering stem bearing lube:
Outrageous! If/when it gets loose or crunchy, replace the steering stem bearings with tapered roller bearings.

Brake lines replaced:
This also is nuts unless they are clearly damaged (cracked outer jacket, leaking, or expands appreciably when under pressure). Visually inspect them periodically.

Fuel line replaced:
These are not pressurized on the pre-gens. If they’re cracked or they leak, you should replace them. Otherwise, don’t worry about them.

Etc.:
You should check the valve clearance no and then. At 6k miles, you’re due. A burned valve due to insufficient clearance would be expensive and time-consuming.

You should also consider changing the coolant every few years.
These opinions are consistent with my conclusions. I don't see how fuel and brake lines would be any different on a ninja from any other vehicle. Can you imagine what a hassle that would be on cars!!

Regarding valve adjustment, I've been adjusting valves since we got our first brand new VW in 1972. Now that I've done it 2 times on the ninja, (with the Kawasaki gauges and adjusting tool) it's pretty routine, and I will continue to go by the book. AT 6K about half of them were a tiny bit off.

Tire pressure (having needed new tires at 5K) I check all the time, and chain I check and oil about 400mi. as recommended. The chain seems to have stabilized and the slack seems to stay.

BTW I believe someone's YOUTUBE demonstration about chain adjustment is incorrect. He says you measure 35-40mm on the same part of the chain. This would be really loose. I believe it should be 35-40mm from the top of the chain when you push it up, to the bottom when you push it down. This is consistent with what the dealer did when installing my new tires.

Also since the tires were installed and aligned correctly, I get NO wobble if I release the handlebars.

That's enough topics for now. I should have separated them to get more "points" toward being able to post on the market place.


Thanks for all the comebacks.
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Old October 24th, 2014, 10:15 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isuoboe View Post
BTW I believe someone's YOUTUBE demonstration about chain adjustment is incorrect. He says you measure 35-40mm on the same part of the chain. This would be really loose. I believe it should be 35-40mm from the top of the chain when you push it up, to the bottom when you push it down. This is consistent with what the dealer did when installing my new tires.
Interesting! I hadn't heard this before, so I went back to the service manuals to figure out what they said. The pic is not the greatest, so it's hard to tell exactly, but on the pre-gen 250 service manual, it does seem to describe what you mention (measure from top of chain on top to bottom of chain on bottom):



On the ninja 300 service manual, they make it very clear that you should measure from the same location at the chain (top to top, or bottom to bottom), but they also recommend a smaller slack value when measuring that way (20mm to 30mm, instead of 35mm to 45mm on the pregen)

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Old October 24th, 2014, 10:50 PM   #16
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The two different measurements, resulting from the two ways of measuring chain slack that Alex talks about, are consistent with the approximate 15mm of chain "height." The lack of specificity in the 250 manuals is inexcusable.
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Old October 24th, 2014, 11:18 PM   #17
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I'm not sure there is a problem with specificity; the diagrams are reasonably clear when looking at the arrows. It's just interesting that they are different.
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Old October 25th, 2014, 02:03 AM   #18
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The explanation of the big difference is that the pregen is adjusted on its center stand and the new bike on it's side stand

I think the chain is tightest when everything lines up (both sprockets and the swing arm pivot) and most loose on the center stand when the suspension is at the bottom limit.
The pregen arrows are a bit misleading measure both the same way ie underside to underside the pregen is <40mm because the suspension is dropped, not to "add the chain thickness"
If someone lives where it is not raining Could they check the slack difference between a pregen on the side stand and put on the center stand? That should confirm if I am right
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Old October 25th, 2014, 06:39 AM   #19
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My pregen is raised in back. I keep a sloppy (loose) chain because of the increased amount of angle swept through the motion of the swingarm due to my raising. Seems to work.
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Old October 25th, 2014, 07:26 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isuoboe View Post
.........BTW I believe someone's YOUTUBE demonstration about chain adjustment is incorrect. He says you measure 35-40mm on the same part of the chain. This would be really loose. I believe it should be 35-40mm from the top of the chain when you push it up, to the bottom when you push it down. This is consistent with what the dealer did when installing my new tires.
...........
Thanks for all the comebacks.
Universally, the slack is specified and measured for the same point of the chain:

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...chain_slack%3F

http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcyc...orcycle-chain/

The first picture of Alex's post represents the center-line of the chain ( _._._ ).

You are welcome

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Old January 23rd, 2015, 04:19 PM   #21
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the maintenance schedule also assumes you are a complete idiot and wont notice when one of your wheels fall off.

when you work on the bikes of people who are that stupid, it makes a lot more sense. Replace brake pads every 2000 miles because some idiot will ride them after they are rubbing metal on metal. Replace brake seals because some idiot will have his seals blow and won't stop riding until his brakes are totally gone.

if you pay attention to what your bike is telling you and feel for abnormal vibration, noise, wobble, feel in the controls, you can push most things out until they start to give signs of failure.
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