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Old September 9th, 2014, 04:55 AM   #1
Swann
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13.5:1 compression ratio kits

Are there any reliability issues with the 13.5:1 for use on the road and road racing?

I sorta read that the 13.5:1 kits are meant for just drag racing, not for road/road racing use. Can anyone share some information on this?
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Old September 9th, 2014, 06:28 AM   #2
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Its just going to make everything that much more important, fueling, timing, cooling, etc. There are plenty of bikes with compression ratios in that range from the factory, but the rest of the bike is built around that design specification. There is no reason it can't be done on a road racing bike, just the devil will be in the details.
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Old September 9th, 2014, 10:35 PM   #3
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A way to get more power out of my ninja 250? After I've done a full areaP exhaust, jetting, pod filter, extensive carb work, water wetter, race gas....??

Where do I sign up?!?
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Old September 12th, 2014, 06:35 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swann View Post
Are there any reliability issues with the 13.5:1 for use on the road and road racing?

I sorta read that the 13.5:1 kits are meant for just drag racing, not for road/road racing use. Can anyone share some information on this?
I had been running my 250 engine for a couple of years with CR 13,9:1...
but of course it was fully modified and had all the necessary equipment to be able to make use of that high CR...
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Old September 12th, 2014, 07:36 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by micoulisninja View Post
I had been running my 250 engine for a couple of years with CR 13,9:1...
but of course it was fully modified and had all the necessary equipment to be able to make use of that high CR...
so is it modified to simply make use of the high CR or is it also modified to handle the extra stress that comes with higher CR, be it heat, pressure ect...?
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Old September 12th, 2014, 11:11 AM   #6
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so is it modified to simply make use of the high CR or is it also modified to handle the extra stress that comes with higher CR, be it heat, pressure ect...?
those two aspects of the engine being modified come hand in hand so one must be prepared (financially mostly) to equip the engine with more than what is being considered necessary to simply perform with extra CR...the weakest point of the 250 engine...
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Old September 12th, 2014, 11:17 AM   #7
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^ just wanted to spell it out for some people.

Just because you can slap 13.5:1 CR piston in an engine as pretty much a drop in mod, that doesn't mean that the rest of the system can handle it with out compromise
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Old September 13th, 2014, 05:27 AM   #8
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^ just wanted to spell it out for some people.

Just because you can slap 13.5:1 CR piston in an engine as pretty much a drop in mod, that doesn't mean that the rest of the system can handle it with out compromise
Always considered that being self-evident for people getting into mods...but I guess not...anyaway from my experience I can tell that a CR of up to 12,8:1 is more than enough on our little engine and will not make it suffer too much...
that is why JE, wiseco and other top notch companies make most of their designs aiming at 12,5:1
of course there are many other factors that give that stress to the engine but the most important -heat ralated especially is CR and ignition timing so people be careful when fiddling with those two...
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Old September 15th, 2014, 12:37 AM   #9
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Yeah, modified motors, advanced motherufckery, good stuff.

I have researched the OEM compression ratio to be 11.6:1

This gives us a good example of what this motor was designed to handle from the fractury.

First things to give out; what are they?

Luckily, area P has free'd up the exhaust system considerably, k&n has paved the way for the appropriate air filter, dynojet has done the work with jetting and elevation, this should be simple to solve.

The question is ---- "How do we maintain control of the spark advance timing and simultaneously monitor the AFR?"

The answer is, install a wideband sensor and figure out how to unplug a sparkplug before a motor detonates.
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Old September 15th, 2014, 12:54 AM   #10
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If anyone has any tips on how to unplug a non-firing cylinder spark plug wire while doing a quarter mile pull on a ninja 250, please direct me to the wiki.

Thx I don't think it's been done yet. Let's keep ourselves all informed in this thread. A new piston, boring work, new ring seals, new wrist pins, what else does it take to get this done.
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Old September 15th, 2014, 07:41 AM   #11
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I would be concerned about heat with the stock cooling set up. Could be nothing to worry about though?, I'd definitely slap an oil & coolant temp gauge on there and see how it does though
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Old September 15th, 2014, 08:52 AM   #12
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Yeah this project will definitely need gauges.

Lot's going on at the moment, but I'm playing with the idea of tackling this...

I think an upgraded radiator would be cheap insurance against seizing the motor, it'd also be smart to tear the whole bike down on the bench and really pay attention to all details.

New rod/main bearings
Hone the cylinder and appropriate size piston (for CR upgrade)
Make sure everything else is within spec upon reassembly (valves etc)
Beef of the OEM cooling system with replacement aftermarket radiator
AFR gauge to watch things and keep detonation from occurring
Maybe hotter spark plugs to account for CR increase

My main question at this point is... how do we keep control of ignition timing? I've 'built' a few motors in the past -- but they were all EFI as opposed to carb, so I'm not really sure how ignition timing would work. With EFI stuff it's all simple fuel/spark maps and AFR readings to hone in on perfect tuning, but with the carbs on this bike, I'm not really sure.

And my other concern is... will it do wheelies if I successfully achieve this? Muahahaha!
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Old September 15th, 2014, 09:03 AM   #13
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After re-considering, the AFR gauge is the only one really necessary -- monitoring EGT could be done with an IR thermometer, monitoring coolant temp could also be done likewise on the radiator hoses (comparing OEM temps to after-modification temps)..

Oil pressure shouldn't be a problem, as long as the oil isn't pushed to it's thermal meltdown inefficiency point..

Another good form of cheap insurance would be installing an oil cooler -- that would really knock the coolant temps down and add life to the whole setup.

Am I the only mad scientist on this forum or can anyone help with this build? Need to make a bunch of predictions to determine if this is a waste of time in comparison to cost for simply buying a honda 600rr bike instead.
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Old September 15th, 2014, 10:33 AM   #14
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there is the BRT-TIS programmable ignition timer for the 250

plug and play with the ninja 250, I have one on my bike
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Old September 15th, 2014, 06:56 PM   #15
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get this.

BRT Imax super pro CDI
http://bintangracingteam.com/product...5#anchor_theme

It comes with 50 preset maps (1 factory map, 11 advanced curve from factory maps, 1 braking map, and the rest racing maps grouped into 3 categories), programmable limiter, programming controller for custom map, and map switching on the fly using 'commander' remote (small controller installed on the handlebar). Optionally it can be set up with braking map that smooth engine braking. I still use it for 1,5 year and it's still reliable, as long as the 'commander' is kept dry from rain (just wrap it with sticky tape).

The factory valve spring is good up to 14K RPM (1K more from factory) without floating. But not so much with the valves, I got my intake valves replaced because their edge wear out too much and causing compression lost. 13,5 - 13,7 K redline is safer for the intake valves.

Most oversized-bore ninjettes here use oil cooler radiator, installed just in front of exhaust header. That way it helps the oil to get up to temperature, but helps cool the whole engine at speed.

Also set up the carb a bit richer helps to cool the mixture and prevent preignition.
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Old September 16th, 2014, 01:07 AM   #16
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Did you replace the oem valve springs with an after market model?



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Originally Posted by silentIm View Post
get this.

BRT Imax super pro CDI
http://bintangracingteam.com/product...5#anchor_theme

It comes with 50 preset maps (1 factory map, 11 advanced curve from factory maps, 1 braking map, and the rest racing maps grouped into 3 categories), programmable limiter, programming controller for custom map, and map switching on the fly using 'commander' remote (small controller installed on the handlebar). Optionally it can be set up with braking map that smooth engine braking. I still use it for 1,5 year and it's still reliable, as long as the 'commander' is kept dry from rain (just wrap it with sticky tape).

The factory valve spring is good up to 14K RPM (1K more from factory) without floating. But not so much with the valves, I got my intake valves replaced because their edge wear out too much and causing compression lost. 13,5 - 13,7 K redline is safer for the intake valves.

Most oversized-bore ninjettes here use oil cooler radiator, installed just in front of exhaust header. That way it helps the oil to get up to temperature, but helps cool the whole engine at speed.

Also set up the carb a bit richer helps to cool the mixture and prevent preignition.
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Old September 17th, 2014, 05:42 AM   #17
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Did you replace the oem valve springs with an after market model?
Nope.
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Old September 17th, 2014, 11:08 AM   #18
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Factory intake valve springs rated on paper for 14k, but tested to failure around 13.7k rpm. Roger that, loud and clear.

How about the exhaust valves? Will they withstand the same abuse?

I'll check part numbers when I have a minute -- I know on the hondas some of the intake valves are double-coiled sprung, and the exhaust valves are single coil. Durability can be beefed up by installing intake valve springs on the exhaust valves as well. I'll look into this.

Looks like we have the ignition timing control locked down with one of those programmable CDI units, very nice indeed.

I'm liking the idea of oil cooler in front of headers -- will help get oil up to temp rapidly, but keep it cool enough when the bike is being ridden as wind-flow will take heat out of the oil and off down along the header like a heat sink. Very clever, whoever came up with that.

Wondering what else to consider before I sit down and run some numbers and see if this whole project is feasible and financially justifiable.

Thanks guys, keep the ideas coming.
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Old September 17th, 2014, 11:58 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corksil View Post
Factory intake valve springs rated on paper for 14k, but tested to failure around 13.7k rpm. Roger that, loud and clear.

How about the exhaust valves? Will they withstand the same abuse?

Yes they will... they are lighter and more beefy to withstand high exhaust temps

Quote:
Originally Posted by corksil View Post
I'll check part numbers when I have a minute -- I know on the hondas some of the intake valves are double-coiled sprung, and the exhaust valves are single coil. Durability can be beefed up by installing intake valve springs on the exhaust valves as well. I'll look into this.
intake and exhaust valve springs are identical on the 250;not only code-wise but also tension-wise; same goes for the 300 engine...

Quote:
Originally Posted by corksil View Post
Looks like we have the ignition timing control locked down with one of those programmable CDI units, very nice indeed.

I'm liking the idea of oil cooler in front of headers -- will help get oil up to temp rapidly, but keep it cool enough when the bike is being ridden as wind-flow will take heat out of the oil and off down along the header like a heat sink. Very clever, whoever came up with that.

Wondering what else to consider before I sit down and run some numbers and see if this whole project is feasible and financially justifiable.

Thanks guys, keep the ideas coming.
about a thousand other factors to consider...and not a cheap thing to go for...
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Old September 17th, 2014, 02:52 PM   #20
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What can be done to improve the valve springs?


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Originally Posted by micoulisninja View Post
Yes they will... they are lighter and more beefy to withstand high exhaust temps

intake and exhaust valve springs are identical on the 250;not only code-wise but also tension-wise; same goes for the 300 engine...

about a thousand other factors to consider...and not a cheap thing to go for...
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Old September 18th, 2014, 05:16 AM   #21
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What can be done to improve the valve springs?
as I point out, it is unecessary or negative, performance-wise due to unecessary extra friction and stress to valvetrain to stiffen exhaust valve springs...
on the other hand SilentIm mentions that it is not the springs that have trouble handling the intake valves but the valves and the valve seats... when I took apart my last 250 engine which revved to 14350rpm I didn't notice major wear on seats but was more than the working hours would normally justify... valves were not n excellent shape, having their edges flatened out, but not to the point of losing compression but enough to have sunk a bit in the valve seat (which is very bad for intake flow especially low lifts and reduces CR by a tiny bit) So SilentIm has a strong point in general... however he has given us no data as to whether he had his valve seats resurfaced or angle jobbed because that definetely reduces 250's valve seat life as it also removes seat surface hardening...
And there is still valve float issue when revving past 14k... so in theory you need 1. harder valve seats 2. lighter valves (I chose the path of lightening the stock ones by 1gram each) 3. stiffer springs optionally
And in that order of importance...
To conclude and answer (eventually your question there are two options if you want stiffer springs...the first is expensive (IMO)
http://www.rdvalvespring.com/kawasaki.html
and have no reviews on it (yet)
and the second is cheap: you place a 1mm steel washer underneath the valve spring to preload it more...

now for some info I think few have and wish to share...
STOCK SPRING TENSION
@1mm 7kg
@7mm 30kg
@13mm 55kg
39mm total length, 26mm fully compressed
spring compression must by no means exceed 10mm when engine working
so if you are to use a 1mm washer under it camshaft max lift must not exceed 8,9mm (I have mine at 8,45mm...) considering that spring is already a bit compressed to be put in its place...
All of the values mentioned above apply only to the 250 and 300 engine
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Old September 18th, 2014, 12:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micoulisninja View Post
as I point out, it is unecessary or negative, performance-wise due to unecessary extra friction and stress to valvetrain to stiffen exhaust valve springs...
on the other hand corksil mentions that it is not the springs that have trouble handling the intake valves but the valves and the valve seats... when I took apart my last 250 engine which revved to 14350rpm I didn't notice major wear on seats but was more than the working hours would normally justify... valves were not n excellent shape, having their edges flatened out, but not to the point of losing compression but enough to have sunk a bit in the valve seat (which is very bad for intake flow especially low lifts and reduces CR by a tiny bit) So corksil has a strong point in general... however he has given us no data as to whether he had his valve seats resurfaced or angle jobbed because that definetely reduces 250's valve seat life as it also removes seat surface hardening...
And there is still valve float issue when revving past 14k... so in theory you need 1. harder valve seats 2. lighter valves (I chose the path of lightening the stock ones by 1gram each) 3. stiffer springs optionally
And in that order of importance...
To conclude and answer (eventually your question there are two options if you want stiffer springs...the first is expensive (IMO)
http://www.rdvalvespring.com/kawasaki.html
and have no reviews on it (yet)
and the second is cheap: you place a 1mm steel washer underneath the valve spring to preload it more...

now for some info I think few have and wish to share...
STOCK SPRING TENSION
@1mm 7kg
@7mm 30kg
@13mm 55kg
39mm total length, 26mm fully compressed
spring compression must by no means exceed 10mm when engine working
so if you are to use a 1mm washer under it camshaft max lift must not exceed 8,9mm (I have mine at 8,45mm...) considering that spring is already a bit compressed to be put in its place...
All of the values mentioned above apply only to the 250 and 300 engine
After I installed the BRT CDI unit, I played with the limiter. As I was noob, my bike lost compression in 6 months of occasional abusive use. After twice valve lapping, the intake valve edge become too sharp and sunk into the seat. At this point I got my intake valves replaced plus cam chain (It rattled bad as well).

During those time I set down my redline limiter until I found safe redline around 13.5 K, and my bike still goes strong in this 3 months after rebuilt. Even that I dont overrev my bike too long, just to provide me some more time/ RPM to shift up before the CDI kills the spark.

TBH, I am courious and envy how the older ninja is set up 14K redline from factory. Did the older ninjas come with stronger cam drives? Has anyone ever thought to put older ninja valves into EX250J / EX 300?
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Old September 18th, 2014, 02:59 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silentIm View Post
After I installed the BRT CDI unit, I played with the limiter. As I was noob, my bike lost compression in 6 months of occasional abusive use. After twice valve lapping, the intake valve edge become too sharp and sunk into the seat. At this point I got my intake valves replaced plus cam chain (It rattled bad as well).

During those time I set down my redline limiter until I found safe redline around 13.5 K, and my bike still goes strong in this 3 months after rebuilt. Even that I dont overrev my bike too long, just to provide me some more time/ RPM to shift up before the CDI kills the spark.

TBH, I am courious and envy how the older ninja is set up 14K redline from factory. Did the older ninjas come with stronger cam drives? Has anyone ever thought to put older ninja valves into EX250J / EX 300?
this kind of valve seat job reduces its life (and the valves seating surface rapidly as I mentioned...
the older 250s use other type of cams(rectangular) and followers to activate valves, so no it cannot be done... those extra revving from factory leading mostly to follower or cam wear... that is why they switched to the current (improved) system...
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Old September 18th, 2014, 10:50 PM   #24
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At $200.00 usd a spring, you'll have trouble finding any takers. But the washer suggestion sounds interesting.



Quote:
Originally Posted by micoulisninja View Post
To conclude and answer (eventually your question there are two options if you want stiffer springs...the first is expensive (IMO)
http://www.rdvalvespring.com/kawasaki.html
and have no reviews on it (yet)
and the second is cheap: you place a 1mm steel washer underneath the valve spring to preload it more...

now for some info I think few have and wish to share...
STOCK SPRING TENSION
@1mm 7kg
@7mm 30kg
@13mm 55kg
39mm total length, 26mm fully compressed
spring compression must by no means exceed 10mm when engine working
so if you are to use a 1mm washer under it camshaft max lift must not exceed 8,9mm (I have mine at 8,45mm...) considering that spring is already a bit compressed to be put in its place...
All of the values mentioned above apply only to the 250 and 300 engine
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Old September 18th, 2014, 11:18 PM   #25
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http://www.rdvalvespring.com/kawasaki.html

They have upgrades for ninja 250 valve springs for 414$ or so...
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Old September 19th, 2014, 03:40 AM   #26
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Here we go about the springs for the valves
The data I show here is coming from the strongest ever build 250 Ninja, a real race bike, with 45.4 HP @ 12418 rpm. With all the other given restrictions this bike revs up to 13500 rpm.
The hp is given at the crank since an engine normally at first has to be seen as a standalone device and a real engine build is made on a workbench and not inside the frame of the bike (sorry but since to many talks about this issue I couldn't hold against myself, so if one doesn't like my direct way to talk then you can rate this as negative helpful).
The parts are from the ZX6R and listet below:
Valve-Guide: 49002-1152
Retainer Valve-Spring: 12009-0020
Collet: 12011-1052
Valve-Spring: 49078-0013
Seat, Spring: 16007-1227
Seal, Oil: 92049-1398
Tappet: 12032-0014
Good luck for everyone in tuning his bike

PS: I forgot the link and the PDF: http://www.scuderiaplatini.it/250_racing.html
Attached Files
File Type: pdf LISTINO_250_2013.pdf (90.1 KB, 14 views)

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Old September 19th, 2014, 05:18 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somchai View Post
Here we go about the springs for the valves
The data I show here is coming from the strongest ever build 250 Ninja, a real race bike, with 45.4 HP @ 12418 rpm. With all the other given restrictions this bike revs up to 13500 rpm.
The hp is given at the crank since an engine normally at first has to be seen as a standalone device and a real engine build is made on a workbench and not inside the frame of the bike (sorry but since to many talks about this issue I couldn't hold against myself, so if one doesn't like my direct way to talk then you can rate this as negative helpful).
The parts are from the ZX6R and listet below:
Valve-Guide: 49002-1152
Retainer Valve-Spring: 12009-0020
Collet: 12011-1052
Valve-Spring: 49078-0013
Seat, Spring: 16007-1227
Seal, Oil: 92049-1398
Tappet: 12032-0014
Good luck for everyone in tuning his bike
Thank you very much.

For my needs I don't push the engine to 14000 rpm. Different gearing to keep it in the power band about 13500. But better valve springs are always good when I hold the high rpm for miles at a time.
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Old September 19th, 2014, 05:47 AM   #28
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I wonder if those springs could be drop in?

FYI the springs are used in:
ZX600-M1 (Ninja ZX-6RR) (2004)
ZX600-N1 (Ninja ZX-6RR) (2005)
ZX600N6F (Ninja ZX-6RR) (2006)

But the retainers are used in:
ZX600R9F (Ninja ZX-6R) (2009)
ZX600R9FA (Ninja ZX-6R Monster Energy) (2009)
ZX600RAF (Ninja ZX-6R) (2010)
ZX600RAFA (Ninja ZX-6R) (2010)
ZX600RBF (Ninja ZX-6R) (2011)
ZX600RCF (Ninja ZX-6R) (2012)
ZX636EDF (Ninja ZX-6R (European)) (2013)
ZX636EDF (Ninja ZX-6R) (2013)
ZX636EEF (Ninja ZX-6R) (2014)
ZX636EFF (Ninja ZX-6R) (2015)
ZX636EFFA (Ninja ZX-6R 30th Anniversary Edition) (2015)
ZX636FDF (Ninja ZX-6R ABS) (2013)
ZX636FEF (Ninja ZX-6R ABS) (2014)
ZX636FFF (Ninja ZX-6R ABS) (2015)
ZX636FFFA (Ninja ZX-6R ABS 30th Anniversary Edition) (2015)

Spring seats are from 03-15



Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Old September 19th, 2014, 06:31 AM   #29
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I have considered raising the compression ratio of my 2012 Ninja 250, but the stock compression ratio is already fairly high at 11.6:1. For street use I question if the minor performance gain is worth the reliability hit - the engine will definitely run hotter.

Instead I have been looking at installing drop-in performance cams. Daniel Crower Racing and Web Racing makes these. Should provide about 10% more peak horsepower over stock, and should complement the Yoshimura full system exhaust nicely -

http://danielcrowerracing.com/i-5935...t-2008-14.html

http://www.webcamshafts.com/index_bl...le_search.html

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Old September 19th, 2014, 06:59 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by C-Bass View Post
I have considered raising the compression ratio of my 2012 Ninja 250, but the stock compression ratio is already fairly high at 11.6:1. For street use I question if the minor performance gain is worth the reliability hit - the engine will definitely run hotter.

Instead I have been looking at installing drop-in performance cams. Daniel Crower Racing and Web Racing makes these. Should provide about 10% more peak horsepower over stock, and should complement the Yoshimura full system exhaust nicely -

http://danielcrowerracing.com/i-5935...t-2008-14.html

http://www.webcamshafts.com/index_bl...le_search.html
You should get an ignition advancer, it's one of my best mods I've made.
Partno. is RTR-KAW-5-05 and you'll find it here: http://www.factorypro.com/prod_pages/prodk04.html

If you need more informations about it just ask @marc99
Good luck
By the way, with this mod the temperature of my Ninjette went down by around 8 degrees celsius, what's good here in the very hot environment.
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Old September 19th, 2014, 08:27 AM   #31
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I have changed the compression from stock to 12.5 to one and retuned the carb many times
The bike will run on pump gas does not run hotter. The power on top end barley changes. The power band is the only change. The midrange is drastically improved.
It's a lot of money. And only good as long as you have all the other mods . But with the header and carb tuning the bike becomes a really great street bike. Capable of 100 mph I. Fifth gear and fun to ride.
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Old September 19th, 2014, 10:11 AM   #32
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Old September 19th, 2014, 11:53 AM   #33
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Somebody mentioned the valves being damaged when the bike is revved much past redline.
If the valves float at high rpm, they will bounce, 'tulip" and sink into the valve seat.
You can catch that if, when checking valve clearance, you find that the clearance is decreasing over time.
The solution is to stop revving it so high, increasing spring preload with shims (that rarely fixes it), replacing the valve springs with stronger springs (the usual solution).
If the valve springs are strong enough to keep the valve from floating at high rpm, the valve clearance will stay pretty much the same as when you set it.

If it was mine, I'd bump up the compression with stock bore or +2mm pistons, mill the head, port the head, bump up only the intake cam, install a programmable ign box
Dial the cam timing in for the desired powerband (dyno work), dial in the carbs, inc MAJ work.

Budget job? Mill and port the head, adj ign timing, dial in the optimal timing for the stock cams, dial in carbs.


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Old September 19th, 2014, 12:49 PM   #34
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Marc! Long time no talk! I used to work for Two Boyz Racing in South Florida, ran your stacks on our zx10s and hayabusa's.

Marc, you guys need to start making valve springs for these things! lol

I converted my 09 250r to fuel injection using all of the ninja 300 EFI system.... turbo, head studs and E85.... well see if she lives!

Good to see your still around!
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Old September 19th, 2014, 01:09 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garth285 View Post
Marc! Long time no talk! I used to work for Two Boyz Racing in South Florida, ran your stacks on our zx10s and hayabusa's.

Marc, you guys need to start making valve springs for these things! lol

I converted my 09 250r to fuel injection using all of the ninja 300 EFI system.... turbo, head studs and E85.... well see if she lives!

Good to see your still around!
I remember you - You sound busy!
Nice project bike. Living is a good thing -

Web has a $1000 valve spring kit and RD has one 313-K1 kit Unk $$.

I have a spring maker who is capable of making valve springs, but neither he, nor I want to be involved with users installing such potentially devastating items. lol!
The best suggestion is oem Japanese valve springs for some other bike - I think someone has found some 600 springs that work.

Stick w compression and flow and cam timing and ign timing and carb work - it's safer.

Marc Salvisberg
Factory Pro Tuning
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Old September 19th, 2014, 01:43 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somchai View Post
Here we go about the springs for the valves
The data I show here is coming from the strongest ever build 250 Ninja, a real race bike, with 45.4 HP @ 12418 rpm. With all the other given restrictions this bike revs up to 13500 rpm.
The hp is given at the crank since an engine normally at first has to be seen as a standalone device and a real engine build is made on a workbench and not inside the frame of the bike (sorry but since to many talks about this issue I couldn't hold against myself, so if one doesn't like my direct way to talk then you can rate this as negative helpful).
The parts are from the ZX6R and listet below:
Valve-Guide: 49002-1152
Retainer Valve-Spring: 12009-0020
Collet: 12011-1052
Valve-Spring: 49078-0013
Seat, Spring: 16007-1227
Seal, Oil: 92049-1398
Tappet: 12032-0014
Good luck for everyone in tuning his bike

PS: I forgot the link and the PDF: http://www.scuderiaplatini.it/250_racing.html
You can get estimated true rear wheel hp by taking the 45 crank number, subtracting 15% for frictional drag in the crank, pistons, rings and valve train, the subtract another 15% for transmission, chain and rear tire losses and you'll get around 32-33 true rear wheel hp.
That's about what I'd likely get.

Now, to get a "magazine hp" figure, add back another 15%. Around 37 magazine hp.

The dynos that read "magazine hp" start out with true hp and factor the actual number up varying amounts to make their dynos read higher. There are no official standards for rear wheel hp numbers.
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Old September 19th, 2014, 03:40 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somchai View Post
Here we go about the springs for the valves
The data I show here is coming from the strongest ever build 250 Ninja, a real race bike, with 45.4 HP @ 12418 rpm. With all the other given restrictions this bike revs up to 13500 rpm.
The hp is given at the crank since an engine normally at first has to be seen as a standalone device and a real engine build is made on a workbench and not inside the frame of the bike (sorry but since to many talks about this issue I couldn't hold against myself, so if one doesn't like my direct way to talk then you can rate this as negative helpful).
The parts are from the ZX6R and listet below:
Valve-Guide: 49002-1152
Retainer Valve-Spring: 12009-0020
Collet: 12011-1052
Valve-Spring: 49078-0013
Seat, Spring: 16007-1227
Seal, Oil: 92049-1398
Tappet: 12032-0014
Good luck for everyone in tuning his bike

PS: I forgot the link and the PDF: http://www.scuderiaplatini.it/250_racing.html

Roland I am missing your point here... please correct me if I've got it wrong and answer my quwstions if you may...

are you saying that there is no need to change valve springs even on a highly tuned engine that revs up to 13,5k or that it is possible to use ZX-6R valvetrain parts ?? that would be very interesting !! I had no idea !! and which year by the way ?? please provide more data on that if you have it !!

finally what would you suggest for an engine capable of revving up to 14350rpm and producing max hp at 13700rpm, like my 250cc was ? Marc pointed out that it is not safe anyway... it proved so at least with my stock springs but thankfully my valves had not sunk (at least not yet, about 10000miles later) but my valves had been a bit "hurt" on their seating surface... I am going to lower max rpm on new project mostly because of larger pistons but want to keep it up to 13,5k...

as a rough guess if a stock 250 produces about 33hp at crank and 25rwhp, then this example is about 12 more= about 37rwhp
it is not the most powerful 250cc engine built but it is definetely a very powerful one given the restrictions they have...
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Old September 19th, 2014, 03:56 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somchai View Post
You should get an ignition advancer, it's one of my best mods I've made.
Partno. is RTR-KAW-5-05 and you'll find it here: http://www.factorypro.com/prod_pages/prodk04.html

If you need more informations about it just ask @marc99
Good luck
By the way, with this mod the temperature of my Ninjette went down by around 8 degrees celsius, what's good here in the very hot environment.
@marc99 @Somchai does this also work for FI models ??
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Old September 19th, 2014, 04:28 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micoulisninja View Post
@marc99 @Somchai does this also work for FI models ??
I think that at least the offset key will work -

We don't have the EFI 250 here, so I can't check if the flywheel puller will work.
The carbed 250 uses a 3 arm puller (not the one bolt puller we send with the kit) - but modern design usually uses a single bolt puller.

Can you check to see what puller the EFI 250 uses?
It's probably either a 3 arm piller, a 16x1.5 puller or an 18x1.5 puller.
My Greek is not so good.....

I don't know about the temperature effect.

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Old September 19th, 2014, 09:49 PM   #40
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With this post maybe some of you will feel provoked a little bit, but let me ask you if you're really sure that the from Kwaki given hp for the Ninjette is correct in every way?
Based on many judgments from German courts against some car producer I'd read in the last time I would like to say: NO they can not...
The second thing which made me thinking is that the Benelli 302, a twin also, with better values than the Ninja 300 in each case has a power output given by 37 hp while Kwaki talks about 39 hp and dyno runs showed at the rw ~33.5 hp.
So now we let the guideline 95/1/EG from the EU be a part of the game and there is a very clear description about the difference from engine to the loss at the rear wheel.
The average values for all those losses are:
Primary drive - 1.5%
Gear stage - 1.5%
Chain drive - 2.5%
Friction losses - 1.0%
Please keep in mind that this values are average values only and may be higher or lower in some cases.
But one thing normally is very clear, if the loss of power at the rw is higher than 10% then there must be a bad maintenance at the chain drive.
Important to know especially for Americans, since you don't know it otherwise, is that in Germany all dyno runs are automatically calculated to crank hp by DIN-Measurement.
But what does this mean? Nothing else than that the real crank hp from the Ninjettes should be (based on all the dynos one can find in the I-Net):
250-Carb-Model = ~28 hp
250-EFI-Model = ~31 hp
300-EFI-Model = ~36 hp
What also means respectfully contradicting @marc99 that the Italian Ninja 250 race bike should have around 42.5 hp at the rw (by the way with your calculation model NO American car or motorcycle would ever pass any of the European tests, or they show fake numbers what nowadays anyway is the new normal). What is left when you subtract around 40%? But please don't believe in the stupid talk of me old boy with some little experience, just only read the official given guidelines.
I don't doubt your knowledge @marc99, but many times in my long live I've seen horses puke...
Also it's important never believe only one opinion since every thing got two sides and to let you know a part of my background please take a look here: http://www.alpina-archive.com/?page_id=171 my world is the world of cars, so in case of mc's I might not be right every time, but the principal of engines is always the same, or at least should be.

@micoulisninja, I didn't say that there is no need to change the valve springs, please take a look at my writeup and you'll see the parts number for them. The only thing I did was to translate the given information from one of the most experienced tuning company for Ninja 250 race bikes. So I would beg you please for more information to contact them.
@garth285 already pointed out where the parts come from: the 2004 ZX6-R and others, so there you should look how high they are able to rev.
Or maybe look at the real old 250/400cc-bikes which did rev up to 20000 rpm, maybe there you can find some valves in the same size like the Ninja. But also it's important, like you said in another post I'd read from you, take good care that the springs are not to strong bc then they will not only limit the ability to rev but also hit your valves into the seat what's never a good solution.

Also to answer the question about the ignition advancer in the EFI-Model: my Ninja is EFI (please take a look at the attached PDF).
But there is one difference to keep in mind: the Thai-Version has 38 deg btdc @ 6000 rpm while the European model has 40 deg btdc @ 6000 rpm.

To give some information about the temperature, since I have the Koso RX2 instrument I'm able to read the value of my temperature. After installing the ign adv I carefully watched this and from what I saw, is that the value went down by around 8 degrees celsius. I think it's well known that a wrong ign timing will make an engine overheating but also that the right value will keep the temperature normal (low).

@marc99 - your puller doesn't work with the 250 Ninja.

I hope that I could satisfy all your questions, so I'll step back into my cave now and say vaya con dios.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf MyNinja1.pdf (57.3 KB, 10 views)
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