ninjette.org

Go Back   ninjette.org > 2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R > 2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 26th, 2020, 04:17 PM   #1
pjed
ninjette.org guru
 
pjed's Avatar
 
Name: Paul
Location: Midwest
Join Date: Oct 2011

Motorcycle(s): 1999 Kawasaki ZRX1100, 2006 Yamaha R1, 2006 Kawasaki ZZR600, 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R, 2017 Kawasaki Z900

Posts: 320
Won't run after jet kit

Having issues getting my new gen to run after some mods. Installed a DJ stage 2 jet kit, Kleen delete, full Area-P exhaust, K&N filter and removed the snorkel. Bike will pop and even shot a flame out the exhaust but won't run. Took the carbs off again to make sure the kit was installed correctly and all seems good: DJ needle with e-clip on 3rd groove, 2 washers above the e-clip, DJ-098 main jet installed and mixture screw 3 turns out. Same problem after re-assembly. I pulled the plugs and they did have some gas on them but didn't look soaked. Any idea on what I'm missing?
pjed is offline   Reply With Quote




Old December 26th, 2020, 09:42 PM   #2
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
You changed too many things at once. Something went wrong, but it's impossible to say what that is since it could be more than one thing. Restore your bike back to 100% bone-stock and verify it works 100% like stock. Most likely it will not, as something got tweaked. Fix whatever that is, wiring, vaccumn-leaks, carb-refurb (not just cleaning), etc.

Once bike is running like off showroom-floor in 100% bone-stock config, do only ONE upgrade at time and fine-tune on dyno to verify proper AFR before moving to next upgrade. Do in this order:

1. Kleen-air and EVAP removal first as it doesn't affect intake air-flow or AFR. Verify bike runs just like stock after this step. There's A LOT of vacuum-hoses that must be removed or capped-off to ensure proper carb operation. If not done properly, bike will run like sh*t at this stage.

2. snorkel remove and K&N filter. Bike should feel slightly crisper than stock now.

3. jet-kit, use clip #2 position (one down from top), DJ #96 mains, leave mixture-screws @ 2.5-turns out. Low-end flow is same as stock, no need to change anything. Do 5 dyno-runs, toss out highest & lowest. average rest and draw plot with AFR. Post that chart here for review. Might need to adjust needle or mains before progressing to next upgrade.

4. Area-P full exhaust last. Do more dyno-runs and analyse AFR after each one, adjust as necessary. Most likely AFR will be in super-rich 10:1 range. Target 13.5:1 AFR under WOT in high-end for max-power. Might want to aim for 12.5-13.0:1 for more safety in case of bad petrol, or super-hot day. Won't sacrifice too much power, but gain A LOT in safety.

I started out with this exact list of mods from stock on my race-bike. Except with Tyga exhaust for +1.5bhp over Area-P. My sponsor Spears spent 1/2-day doing at least 20 dyno-runs and pulled carbs several times to downsize mains to dial it in.


You want to be extremely careful when doing mods like this, because risks of destroying engine are great. Very first step is to verify bike is running perfectly in 100% bone-stock condition with fully-refurbed carbs. A lot of people use jet-kits as way to avoid carb-restoration to factory-fresh clean condition, but that never ends well. I tried that trick 25-years ago with my 1st bike and unbeknownst to me, one of carbs had dirty clogged fuel-circuit. I just threw in exhaust and jets and ended up with this:




Now I'm fastidious about checking AFR. I use TechEdge fully-digital wideband O2-sensor with on-board datalogging to verify my AFRs are spot-on after every mod. Also to verify dyno-calibrations, I don't trust many of them.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; December 26th, 2020 at 11:42 PM.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old December 27th, 2020, 07:15 AM   #3
jkv45
Rev Limiter
 
jkv45's Avatar
 
Name: Jay
Location: WI
Join Date: Jul 2013

Motorcycle(s): '06 SV650n, '00 Derbi GPR, '64 CA77 Dream 305, '70 CL450 Scrambler, numerous dirt bikes

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
As Danno noted - that's a lot of changes at one time.

I tend to think there is something not right in the carbs. Not a fan of DynoJet kits with proprietary numbering.

Seems like you are dumping in too much fuel from the sound of it. Check the enrichment circuit, float levels, and make sure the slides are fully seating. If the needles are hanging-up in the jets, or the slides are not seated, you would be dumping fuel.

I'd go back to the stock jets for starters. It may not be that far off.

The way to really know what's going on is the dyno and AF ratio.
jkv45 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 27th, 2020, 09:26 AM   #4
pjed
ninjette.org guru
 
pjed's Avatar
 
Name: Paul
Location: Midwest
Join Date: Oct 2011

Motorcycle(s): 1999 Kawasaki ZRX1100, 2006 Yamaha R1, 2006 Kawasaki ZZR600, 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R, 2017 Kawasaki Z900

Posts: 320
Danno, thank you for the detailed reply! What you describe is logically the right way to troubleshoot this. I did start with the bike I didn't know the history on and didn't really have it running perfect in stock form. I did the exact same mods with my previous newgen 250 track bike but with a Tyga...that all worked great but I had months of riding it stock and it ran perfectly. Well, we all know what happens when you assume...

Thanks Jay for your input as well. I do have a set of extra set of bone stock carbs for a newgen that I know work great and before I go back to logical square 1, I'm going to swap the jet kit over to that set and give it a shot.
pjed is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 27th, 2020, 10:39 AM   #5
jkv45
Rev Limiter
 
jkv45's Avatar
 
Name: Jay
Location: WI
Join Date: Jul 2013

Motorcycle(s): '06 SV650n, '00 Derbi GPR, '64 CA77 Dream 305, '70 CL450 Scrambler, numerous dirt bikes

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjed View Post
Danno, thank you for the detailed reply! What you describe is logically the right way to troubleshoot this. I did start with the bike I didn't know the history on and didn't really have it running perfect in stock form. I did the exact same mods with my previous newgen 250 track bike but with a Tyga...that all worked great but I had months of riding it stock and it ran perfectly. Well, we all know what happens when you assume...

Thanks Jay for your input as well. I do have a set of extra set of bone stock carbs for a newgen that I know work great and before I go back to logical square 1, I'm going to swap the jet kit over to that set and give it a shot.
I might put that set on, as is, and see what you get before swapping jets.

Danno would know better, but I didn't think it would run terrible with the stock jetting and your set-up. Not perfect, but decent. You could also just put the snorkel and stock air filter in while you are at it for testing purposes - if you wanted to get closer to Square 1.
jkv45 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 27th, 2020, 12:36 PM   #6
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjed View Post
I do have a set of extra set of bone stock carbs for a newgen that I know work great and before I go back to logical square 1, I'm going to swap the jet kit over to that set and give it a shot.
ah, I see from your other posts that existing carbs on bike was causing stumbling in stock form before any mods. How would you know if these spare carbs are factory-fresh clean? I recommend a full refurb and restoration to factory-fresh clean condition of one set of carbs as starting point. Search for "clean carbs ducatiman" for procedures and photos on what it takes to restore carbs back to factory-fresh clean condition.

Only once you've restored bike to 100% showroom condition should you embark on mods. Otherwise, risks of engine damages are great. You'll also not get maximum benefits of any mods if carbs aren't fully restored to start with.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 27th, 2020, 01:29 PM   #7
pjed
ninjette.org guru
 
pjed's Avatar
 
Name: Paul
Location: Midwest
Join Date: Oct 2011

Motorcycle(s): 1999 Kawasaki ZRX1100, 2006 Yamaha R1, 2006 Kawasaki ZZR600, 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R, 2017 Kawasaki Z900

Posts: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
How would you know if these spare carbs are factory-fresh clean?
They came off of a good running, stock bike I had years ago.
pjed is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 27th, 2020, 08:18 PM   #8
jkv45
Rev Limiter
 
jkv45's Avatar
 
Name: Jay
Location: WI
Join Date: Jul 2013

Motorcycle(s): '06 SV650n, '00 Derbi GPR, '64 CA77 Dream 305, '70 CL450 Scrambler, numerous dirt bikes

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjed View Post
They came off of a good running, stock bike I had years ago.
I guess the question would be - have they degraded from sitting and can you trust them to work as they did years ago?

I'd look them over before installing, but I'd give them a try.
jkv45 is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old January 18th, 2021, 05:27 PM   #9
pjed
ninjette.org guru
 
pjed's Avatar
 
Name: Paul
Location: Midwest
Join Date: Oct 2011

Motorcycle(s): 1999 Kawasaki ZRX1100, 2006 Yamaha R1, 2006 Kawasaki ZZR600, 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R, 2017 Kawasaki Z900

Posts: 320
Going completely back to stock...is the stock mixture screw setting 2 1/2 left and 1 3/4 right?
pjed is offline   Reply With Quote


Old January 18th, 2021, 06:46 PM   #10
ducatiman
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
ducatiman's Avatar
 
Name: Gordon
Location: new york
Join Date: Sep 2009

Motorcycle(s): '95 DUCATI 900SS/SP '07 DUCATI SS800 '19 HONDA CBR650R

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Nov '18, Mar '17
"Bike will pop and even shot a flame out the exhaust but won't run."

unmetered fuel is somehow entering the combustion chamber, beyond the intended circuits.

Your proposed initial settings should allow running, provided the carb fuel circuits are truly clear. A functioning, clean and adjusted float system rather important as well.
__________________________________________________
gordon@customcarbservices.com
Custom Carb Service
www.customcarbservices.com
ducatiman is offline   Reply With Quote


Old January 18th, 2021, 08:04 PM   #11
pjed
ninjette.org guru
 
pjed's Avatar
 
Name: Paul
Location: Midwest
Join Date: Oct 2011

Motorcycle(s): 1999 Kawasaki ZRX1100, 2006 Yamaha R1, 2006 Kawasaki ZZR600, 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R, 2017 Kawasaki Z900

Posts: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
"Bike will pop and even shot a flame out the exhaust but won't run."

unmetered fuel is somehow entering the combustion chamber, beyond the intended circuits.

Your proposed initial settings should allow running, provided the carb fuel circuits are truly clear. A functioning, clean and adjusted float system rather important as well.
I put everything back to stock: KLEEN, air filter, snorkel, exhaust and carb settings/needles/jets. The float needles are seating...I'm not able to blow air into the carb when flipped upside down. Back in stock form, the bike still won't fire. Basically the same symptoms. The only other thing I did was put in new plugs which I verified are both making spark.

While I was putting in the jet kit, I pulled the main jets, needles, emulsion tubes, pilot jets, and mixture screws. Cleaned all and shot air through the passages. I'm stumped.
pjed is offline   Reply With Quote


Old January 18th, 2021, 09:27 PM   #12
ducatiman
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
ducatiman's Avatar
 
Name: Gordon
Location: new york
Join Date: Sep 2009

Motorcycle(s): '95 DUCATI 900SS/SP '07 DUCATI SS800 '19 HONDA CBR650R

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Nov '18, Mar '17
fuel reaching bowls confirmed?
__________________________________________________
gordon@customcarbservices.com
Custom Carb Service
www.customcarbservices.com
ducatiman is offline   Reply With Quote


Old January 19th, 2021, 12:15 AM   #13
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
which carbs are in bike?
I suggest putting in carbs that were originally on bike when it was running better in stock trim. Idea is not to fix anything, but restore configuration to exact one that was running better. Currently there's something different about this set-up.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old January 19th, 2021, 01:58 PM   #14
pjed
ninjette.org guru
 
pjed's Avatar
 
Name: Paul
Location: Midwest
Join Date: Oct 2011

Motorcycle(s): 1999 Kawasaki ZRX1100, 2006 Yamaha R1, 2006 Kawasaki ZZR600, 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R, 2017 Kawasaki Z900

Posts: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
fuel reaching bowls confirmed?
I can crack the bleeder on the bowl to confirm but each time I've taken the carbs off and move them around, a bunch of gas comes out of the overflow hose.
pjed is offline   Reply With Quote


Old January 19th, 2021, 02:00 PM   #15
pjed
ninjette.org guru
 
pjed's Avatar
 
Name: Paul
Location: Midwest
Join Date: Oct 2011

Motorcycle(s): 1999 Kawasaki ZRX1100, 2006 Yamaha R1, 2006 Kawasaki ZZR600, 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R, 2017 Kawasaki Z900

Posts: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
which carbs are in bike?
I suggest putting in carbs that were originally on bike when it was running better in stock trim. Idea is not to fix anything, but restore configuration to exact one that was running better. Currently there's something different about this set-up.
Original carbs are back on the bike, set to stock with mixture screw setting 2 1/2 left and 1 3/4 which I assume is correct. The only thing that's different from pre-jet kit are the new plugs.
pjed is offline   Reply With Quote


Old January 19th, 2021, 04:45 PM   #16
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjed View Post
Original carbs are back on the bike, set to stock with mixture screw setting 2 1/2 left and 1 3/4 which I assume is correct. The only thing that's different from pre-jet kit are the new plugs.
Well, darn... Something detrimental happened during all those upgrades. Restoring to previous configuration didn't reverse whatever that step was... hmmm...

1. air & compression - not likely that changed so suddenly. Unless it sucked in sock used to cover intake-ports when carbs were off.
- PAIR vacuum-hose connected between PAIR-valve and rubber-T to carb vacuum-port?
- PAIR air-hose connected to air-box?

2. spark -you've confirmed you've got spark with new plugs, so we can rule out ignition issues

3. fuel - is only thing left. Whatever changed from stock to cause this issue occurred previously during upgrades install. And assuming stock jets and parts are OK going back in... there must be something non-stock with carbs that was not there before jet-kit install.... Well, might even be something when installing other upgrades, but I'm going to assume for now that it's carb-related.

Putting my race-bike back together now... keep this on back-burner while I handle parts...

BTW - did you ever swap in spare-carbs when bike was still in upgraded config?
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old January 21st, 2021, 02:47 PM   #17
pjed
ninjette.org guru
 
pjed's Avatar
 
Name: Paul
Location: Midwest
Join Date: Oct 2011

Motorcycle(s): 1999 Kawasaki ZRX1100, 2006 Yamaha R1, 2006 Kawasaki ZZR600, 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R, 2017 Kawasaki Z900

Posts: 320
Well it runs. Just for sh*ts and giggles I threw on the old spark plugs and it fired right up. I checked the gap on the new plugs I installed and they were .031 and .033...guess one was a tiny bit on the plus side but I would think it should have still run. Don't think I've ever hear of anything being wrong with new plugs
pjed is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old January 21st, 2021, 07:52 PM   #18
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjed View Post
Well it runs. Just for sh*ts and giggles I threw on the old spark plugs and it fired right up. I checked the gap on the new plugs I installed and they were .031 and .033...guess one was a tiny bit on the plus side but I would think it should have still run. Don't think I've ever hear of anything being wrong with new plugs
There have been caveats about certain plug brands for pre-gen, but yeah you're right, I have not heard anything about new-gen plugs: https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Changi...rands_to_avoid

Hmmm interesting... I use NGK CR8E plugs @ 0.032" gap on my race bike without any issues. You may have sub-standard ignition-system.

- Might want to measure power at coils with key-ON.
- Also measure resistance of primary & secondary windings on coil.
- Measure resistance of hi-ten wires.
- Check out Jim's post about coil-polarity: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...45#post1281145

What brand & model plugs were old ones that's working?
What brand & model plugs are new ones that didn't work?
What gap did you end up with where they worked?

Could be new plugs had been abused and dropped? Darn UPS!

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; January 21st, 2021 at 11:48 PM.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
08 plus carb set wit dyno jet - jet kit 150.00 genosr1 Motorcycle-related 1 January 31st, 2017 04:19 PM
Help! Won't run. xaple 2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk 37 August 9th, 2013 02:57 PM
Won't run Bblock 2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk 9 August 6th, 2013 12:17 PM
Help! Won't run. xaple 2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk 32 July 16th, 2013 09:38 PM
Won't "run right", won't idle, choke only, etc?? - SOLUTION HERE Jiggyfly 2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk 5 May 16th, 2012 09:50 AM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Motorcycle Safety Foundation

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:55 PM.


Website uptime monitoring Host-tracker.com
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Except where otherwise noted, all site contents are © Copyright 2022 ninjette.org, All rights reserved.