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Old May 3rd, 2013, 02:09 PM   #1
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Cooling Issues

Here's what's happening:

1) Bike gets very close to or even in the red zone when the radiator fan is running while the bike is stopped.

2) Bike runs hot even during cool temperatures and while cruising along

3) Fan has to be jumped to start as it will not start on its own

4) The temp gauge shows the bike cooling down abnormally quickly after I turn her off for a few minutes.


I ran a continuity test between the two pins on the thermostatic switch and found it was not closing the circuit when the bike was very hot.

I am guessing the thermostat went out but it seems strange the thermostatic switch and the thermostat would go out at the same time.

Since the fan does run via a switch I am assuming the fuse is fine and there is no need to check it?

Is there an easy way to see if the water pump is operational?
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Old May 3rd, 2013, 07:08 PM   #2
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My remarks in red:

1) Bike gets very close to or even in the red zone when the radiator fan is running while the bike is stopped.
The thermostat is not opening full-flow into the radiator as it should:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Cooling_system

2) Bike runs hot even during cool temperatures and while cruising along
Coolant flow is restricted at thermostat; hence, heat transfer from radiator into airstream is impaired.

3) Fan has to be jumped to start as it will not start on its own
As the radiator and the cylinder are partially isolated, the coolant leaving the radiator remains cool enough not to trigger the fan switch.

4) The temp gauge shows the bike cooling down abnormally quickly after I turn her off for a few minutes.
There is a hole in the thermostat case that allows natural flow of hot coolant into cooler coolant in the radiator.


I ran a continuity test between the two pins on the thermostatic switch and found it was not closing the circuit when the bike was very hot.
This is not a switch but a variable resistor. Its ohms vary with coolant temperature, allowing more or less Amps into the gauge.

I am guessing the thermostat went out but it seems strange the thermostatic switch and the thermostat would go out at the same time.

Since the fan does run via a switch I am assuming the fuse is fine and there is no need to check it?

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...ling_system%3F

Is there an easy way to see if the water pump is operational?
Since it is direct driven and centrifugal, the pump is always operational. The amount of flow it handles depends on the restriction of the circuit. Closed thermostat = minimum coolant flow.
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Old May 4th, 2013, 10:08 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motofool View Post
My remarks in red:

1) Bike gets very close to or even in the red zone when the radiator fan is running while the bike is stopped.
The thermostat is not opening full-flow into the radiator as it should:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Cooling_system

2) Bike runs hot even during cool temperatures and while cruising along
Coolant flow is restricted at thermostat; hence, heat transfer from radiator into airstream is impaired.

3) Fan has to be jumped to start as it will not start on its own
As the radiator and the cylinder are partially isolated, the coolant leaving the radiator remains cool enough not to trigger the fan switch.

4) The temp gauge shows the bike cooling down abnormally quickly after I turn her off for a few minutes.
There is a hole in the thermostat case that allows natural flow of hot coolant into cooler coolant in the radiator.


I ran a continuity test between the two pins on the thermostatic switch and found it was not closing the circuit when the bike was very hot.
This is not a switch but a variable resistor. Its ohms vary with coolant temperature, allowing more or less Amps into the gauge.

I am guessing the thermostat went out but it seems strange the thermostatic switch and the thermostat would go out at the same time.

Since the fan does run via a switch I am assuming the fuse is fine and there is no need to check it?

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...ling_system%3F

Is there an easy way to see if the water pump is operational?
Since it is direct driven and centrifugal, the pump is always operational. The amount of flow it handles depends on the restriction of the circuit. Closed thermostat = minimum coolant flow.
As for the thermostatic switch- when I ran a continuity test when the temp gauge read very hot I still got an open circuit with the continuity tester. Perhaps the circuit never gets fully closed (and a resistance remains) but I would expect a lower reading than the "1" my meter reads which I believe is equivalent to 1k ohms or greater.

Do auto/bike shops normally carry this thermostat?
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Old May 4th, 2013, 11:00 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng View Post
......I would expect a lower reading than the "1" my meter reads which I believe is equivalent to 1k ohms or greater.

Do auto/bike shops normally carry this thermostat?
This article talks about above 2K ohms, but there are several types of these sensors.
The ones for cars mostly communicate with the computer in the car.

"The normal resistance on an engine with 50 to 80 degrees F = 2,200 to 2,700 ohms."

http://www.howstuffinmycarworks.com/...mp_sensor.html

No idea, Justin.
The second link of my previous post guides you on how to test it.
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Old May 4th, 2013, 12:03 PM   #5
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Well a new thermostat is getting shipped this week nonetheless. Thx for the help. $28 from partzilla
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Old May 4th, 2013, 12:20 PM   #6
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........Thx for the help.......
You are welcome

Hope you can roll soon .......and cooler.
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Old May 13th, 2013, 06:09 PM   #7
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Put new thermostat in and the overheating persists. I believe that narrows it down to the water pump and the thermostatic switch. Since the thermo switch wasn't reading a low resistance when I checked it I guess I'll order one of those. It's also much cheaper and less of a pain in the a$$ which is probably the biggest reason I'll try it first.
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Old May 14th, 2013, 03:32 PM   #8
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Is there a way to check and see if the water pump is running fine without having to tear anything down?
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Old May 14th, 2013, 03:42 PM   #9
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What if you just removed the thermostat. Allowing the bike to run cooler at all times? Bad Idea? Idk,.
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Old May 14th, 2013, 03:49 PM   #10
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What if you just removed the thermostat. Allowing the bike to run cooler at all times? Bad Idea? Idk,.
Yeah I'm pretty sure the thermostat is working as it should is the thing. Removing it would just make the bike take forever to warm up and never get up to a nice operating temp.

I'm going to have to replace my thermostatic switch but that can't be causing the overheating because I have a fan switch jumped and the engine still overheats while the fan is running. I'm worried that my water pump has seized but I don't know how to test it yet...

My coolant is only about a year old so I'm really not suspecting this to be the problem but I will check it tomorrow.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 07:28 AM   #11
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Is there a way to check and see if the water pump is running fine without having to tear anything down?
There is no practical way to check the pumps' performance.

The problem could be impaired flow due to excessive restriction at the radiator (salts' deposits), which also greatly impairs the transfer of heat into the air.

The pump is centrifugal, which means that its flow can go to almost zero if the restrictions to flow in the circuit are high enough, even when the shaft is rotating at normal rpm's.

Unless the vanes of the rotor have disintegrated (which can happen if there is cavitation), the thing pumps as it should.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation

"At 10,000 rpm, the water pump pushes the coolant through at eleven gallons per minute, which means that the single quart of liquid in the system is (theoretically) doing a circuit 40 times a minute. Be kind to your hard-working coolant and change it regularly."

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Cooling_system

There is no practical way either to verify that your radiator is clean enough to allow 11 gpm to flow through it.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 08:14 AM   #12
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Ever think that the temp gauge may be reading a little high. It may be old too. Also keep in mind this is a basic cooling system.

Technically all metering devices should be calibrated or checked every so often. When I was in the military, every critical pressure, vacuum, digital, temp, dial indicator gauge was calibrated on a regular basis.

A true case of overheating will have the thermostat at full lift and the radiator cap releasing coolant into the reservoir and the fan running.

"Many bikes engage the fan just below the red zone, while others have been reported engaging the fan at the mid-way point on the temperature gauge. The most important thing here is that it's entirely normal for your bike's temperature gauge to run all the way up to the bottom of the red zone before the fan comes on."
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Old May 15th, 2013, 02:21 PM   #13
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Yeah I mean the coolant overflow hose is spilling the overheating coolant out and I just don't suspect the temp gauge to be out at all.

I wonder if feeling the hoses past the thermostat for temp differences before and after the bike warms up would help me out.

I would imagine you could feel 10 gallons/min. flowing through the hoses if you gave them a little squeeze too?
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Old May 15th, 2013, 03:56 PM   #14
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Have you pressure tested or changed the radiator cap? If the spring is too weak, it will let coolant out prematurely.
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Old May 16th, 2013, 03:50 PM   #15
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Have you pressure tested or changed the radiator cap? If the spring is too weak, it will let coolant out prematurely.
I've seen no leaks from the rad cap..
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Old May 16th, 2013, 03:59 PM   #16
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where is the heat coming from? get the bike hot and take a look. clutch? head? what is your tuning like? when was the last time you adjusted valves? you could use some high temp clear hose temporarily so you could see the flow. removing the water pump is pretty easy and inspecting it should be pretty obvious if its damaged or not.
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Old May 16th, 2013, 05:47 PM   #17
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where is the heat coming from? get the bike hot and take a look. clutch? head? what is your tuning like? when was the last time you adjusted valves? you could use some high temp clear hose temporarily so you could see the flow. removing the water pump is pretty easy and inspecting it should be pretty obvious if its damaged or not.
I'm not sure where the heat is coming from because everywhere is very hot. The exhaust, engine, hoses, radiator, cluth are all hot.

I adjusted valves back in November.

My tuning is fine I've got factory pro jets so I'm gonna be running a lil bit hot but it's been fine for the past 4 months or so I've had them in.

I keep forgetting to grab my coolant test gauge so I'll do that tomorrow.
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Old May 16th, 2013, 05:49 PM   #18
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The coolant level should be fine I would imagine since there is coolant in both the reservoir and up to the top in the filler neck.....

I wouldnt expect the coolant to be bad already but I will check it to be safe....
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Old May 16th, 2013, 05:50 PM   #19
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I've seen no leaks from the rad cap..
The cap has two seals. The outer or upper seal, seals the radiator, the inner or lower seal, seals the filler neck. The spring holds the inner seal down and keeps the pressure at 16 psi. If the spring is weak it will allow coolant to go past the seal and exit thru the overflow hose. Another owner had the same problem as you. he changed out the thermostat and fan switch and found out his cap only tested @ 1 p.s.i.
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Old May 16th, 2013, 05:54 PM   #20
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The cap has two seals. The outer or upper seal, seals the radiator, the inner or lower seal, seals the filler neck. The spring holds the inner seal down and keeps the pressure at 16 psi. If the spring is weak it will allow coolant to go past the seal and exit thru the overflow hose. Another owner had the same problem as you. he changed out the thermostat and fan switch and found out his cap only tested @ 1 p.s.i.
Ok how do I test the cap?
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Old May 16th, 2013, 06:08 PM   #21
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Ok how do I test the cap?
You need cooling system pressure tester. Your local auto parts store should be able to test it for you. If you do need one, here are the suitable replacements. Radiator Cap Relief Pressure should be 14-18 psi.

Stock p/n: # 49085-1066 can be replaced by
Stant's 10233
Prestone's RR-33
CARQUEST 33044
Gates 31336
Gates Canada 31336
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Stant (Carded) 11233
Stant (Carded) 70233BL
Stant (Carded) 70233RD
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Old May 17th, 2013, 10:06 AM   #22
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Coolant reads boiling point of 262F (ignoring innacuracy of gauge).

I'm just gonna replace the coolant for what.....$12 or so? Any recommendations?
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Old May 17th, 2013, 10:39 AM   #23
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Coolant reads boiling point of 262F (ignoring innacuracy of gauge)......
Could you explain how/where/when did you read that?

http://www.arrowheadradiator.com/ove..._and_cures.htm

I don't think that the coolant is the problem, but the ratio of releasing heat.
Your engine is generating more heat than what the radiator can release into the atmosphere.
As your cap is holding some pressure, that coolant is not reaching the boiling point yet (high pressure = high boiling point (around 3 more F degrees per each psi)).

If you want to experiment, just switch to distilled water, which has a greater heat transfer capability.
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Old May 17th, 2013, 12:43 PM   #24
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Could you explain how/where/when did you read that?

http://www.arrowheadradiator.com/ove..._and_cures.htm

I don't think that the coolant is the problem, but the ratio of releasing heat.
Your engine is generating more heat than what the radiator can release into the atmosphere.
As your cap is holding some pressure, that coolant is not reaching the boiling point yet (high pressure = high boiling point (around 3 more F degrees per each psi)).

If you want to experiment, just switch to distilled water, which has a greater heat transfer capability.
there is a gauge I bought a while back that you fill with coolant and it gives you a boiling point-reading with a needle. I'm not sure how accurate it is but I've tested new coolant and it read what the rating of the coolant was. It's all I really have to work with.
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Old May 17th, 2013, 01:01 PM   #25
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OK, I see.

As it is not actual temperature of the coolant, please disregard the "As your cap is holding some pressure" from my previous post.

Is the reading in agreement with what the label of the jug states?
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Old May 17th, 2013, 01:22 PM   #26
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OK, I see.

As it is not actual temperature of the coolant, please disregard the "As your cap is holding some pressure" from my previous post.

Is the reading in agreement with what the label of the jug states?
No the boiling point is less than what it comes at fresh.
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Old May 17th, 2013, 01:57 PM   #27
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there is a gauge I bought a while back that you fill with coolant and it gives you a boiling point-reading with a needle. I'm not sure how accurate it is but I've tested new coolant and it read what the rating of the coolant was. It's all I really have to work with.
So basically you used a coolant tester to check the specific gravity?
Which place did you check the coolant? Reservoir or radiator?

262 is pretty close to 265 degrees (boiling point). It's within the margin of error for a hydrometer (+/- 8 degrees) however, it's still not telling you at what PSI your cap is releasing at or the actual coolant temp.
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Old May 17th, 2013, 04:03 PM   #28
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Hi Justin,

Just a few points to put out there.

1. There are two coolant switches. One is stuck to the radiator and controls the fan. It is a switch, not a resistor. The second is a thermistor and controls the gauge and is located in the thermostat assembly. Its very possible for one to fail and not the other.

2. To check your water pump and thermostat:
a) Remove the radiator cap when cold.
b) start engine and wait for engine to get warm.
c) When its warm, you'll see coolant movement in the filler neck.

3. The water pump is direct drive from the crankshaft via some gears and the oil pump. If you have oil pressure, then the water pump is spinning. If you have been using antifreeze, then the pump impeller should be fine, but if you have been using straight water, then it could have rotted away.

Try the open cap test #2 above. More than likely, your fan thermoswitch is bad. Its actually quite common to fail.

Its also quite normal for the bike to go nearly to the 'H' while sitting in traffic. If you are going to be a while (drawbridge, etc.) just turn off the engine with the key (not the red switch or you'll run your battery down). About a month ago I had to turn around to avoid a traffic jam and take the long way around just to get some air through my radiator. These bikes flat out do not like to idle or move slow. They will actually run cooler at 50mph.
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Old May 17th, 2013, 04:43 PM   #29
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Hi Justin,

Just a few points to put out there.

1. There are two coolant switches. One is stuck to the radiator and controls the fan. It is a switch, not a resistor. The second is a thermistor and controls the gauge and is located in the thermostat assembly. Its very possible for one to fail and not the other.

2. To check your water pump and thermostat:
a) Remove the radiator cap when cold.
b) start engine and wait for engine to get warm.
c) When its warm, you'll see coolant movement in the filler neck.

3. The water pump is direct drive from the crankshaft via some gears and the oil pump. If you have oil pressure, then the water pump is spinning. If you have been using antifreeze, then the pump impeller should be fine, but if you have been using straight water, then it could have rotted away.

Try the open cap test #2 above. More than likely, your fan thermoswitch is bad. Its actually quite common to fail.

Its also quite normal for the bike to go nearly to the 'H' while sitting in traffic. If you are going to be a while (drawbridge, etc.) just turn off the engine with the key (not the red switch or you'll run your battery down). About a month ago I had to turn around to avoid a traffic jam and take the long way around just to get some air through my radiator. These bikes flat out do not like to idle or move slow. They will actually run cooler at 50mph.
Ok I'll try removing the radiator cap and checking for coolant flow. I never had overheating issues before but I am still getting hot even while my fan is running (jumped it). If there is coolant flow i'll just go ahead and replace the cap and coolant and go from there.
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Old May 17th, 2013, 04:57 PM   #30
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Ok I'll try removing the radiator cap and checking for coolant flow. I never had overheating issues before but I am still getting hot even while my fan is running (jumped it). If there is coolant flow i'll just go ahead and replace the cap and coolant and go from there.
I'm not sure what the point in replacing the cap is. Does it leak? Is it physically damaged? It has nothing to do with the cooling of your engine. It just keeps the coolant from leaking out and maintains pressure.

You could also be cavitated. When replacing the coolant, there are air pockets in the engine head that hold air. And your engine will overheat. If you are cavitated, you'll see the coolant level drop when you run without the cap when you do the test above. Just add more coolant directly to the radiator if that happens and you should be good to go.
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Old May 18th, 2013, 10:40 AM   #31
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Well putting a new cap on would just eliminate that from the equation. I did see some dark flakes in my coolant reservoir (overflow) so maybe a flush would help???? Last time I did a flush in my van I lost my intake manifold gaskets so I'm a little wary on the performing it. I'm a little lost now I was going to rent a pressure test kit but they wanted $180 deposit which I'm not messing with. I think I'll replace the coolant since I bought a jug today anyways (dexcool).
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Old May 18th, 2013, 01:50 PM   #32
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I'm not sure what the point in replacing the cap is. Does it leak? Is it physically damaged? It has nothing to do with the cooling of your engine. It just keeps the coolant from leaking out and maintains pressure.

You could also be cavitated. When replacing the coolant, there are air pockets in the engine head that hold air. And your engine will overheat. If you are cavitated, you'll see the coolant level drop when you run without the cap when you do the test above. Just add more coolant directly to the radiator if that happens and you should be good to go.
Well Blue said you could have a cap that only holds 1psi....

FYI I checked the coolant from the overflow tank.
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Old May 18th, 2013, 02:13 PM   #33
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....FYI I checked the coolant from the overflow tank.
Check the coolant in the radiator and see if there is a difference. Keep in mind that the coolant in the reservoir is not pressurized nor is it air tight. As the antifreeze is cooled and heated and exposed to air, the components of the formulation (ethylene glycol), can start to break down in about 10 days.

FYI-I'd be cautious about using Dex-Cool in your bike. Dex-cool got a bad rep for some issues it caused in cars.
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Old May 18th, 2013, 03:25 PM   #34
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New cap is in, wasnt the issue. Guess I'll be replacing coolant
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Old May 18th, 2013, 03:35 PM   #35
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Flushing would be a good idea. Its not going to hurt anything unless you put some kind of chemical in there. Just reverse flush with plain water.
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Old May 19th, 2013, 05:24 PM   #36
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Ok, so far we have this:

New coolant after flush

New thermostat

New radiator cap

Bike still overheats, I watched as the coolant spilled out the overflow hose onto the ground so the gauge is reading accurately.

I now have an issue of low power. Tomorrow I will bust out the old compression tester and check the plugs. If those check out (please god please let them check out) then I'll be opening up the carb bowls to find out what the heck is going on.

Anyone have any ideas?? I was driving along and the engine starts to get hot (not in red zone mind you) and power starts decreasing. I drive it home on the shoulder going very very slowly. This bike keeps me on my feet I swear.

Before it got real bad the engine was pretty normal til about 7k rpms. I had a weird 30 minute phase where I was running on one cylinder a few weeks ago but I assumed it was either rain in the tank (it had been pouring) or the carbs passing a kidney stone.
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Old May 19th, 2013, 07:17 PM   #37
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Did you do the flow test that I described earlier?
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Old May 19th, 2013, 08:22 PM   #38
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Did you do the flow test that I described earlier?
Yeah there was flow indeed.
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Old May 19th, 2013, 09:14 PM   #39
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The bike tends to run hot - especially when riding slow. But if you have coolant and flow, then the cooling system isn't the problem. What does the gauge say when you are at speed >60mph?

Is there any chance someone put the wrong jet in the carbs causing it to run too lean? When its acting up, try a small amount of choke to see if it cools it down any.

Lastly, its also possible that the gauge is simply wrong. I've never heard of this on a Ninja, but temp sensors do fail.
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Old May 20th, 2013, 07:40 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng View Post
Ok, so far we have this:

New coolant after flush

New thermostat

New radiator cap

Bike still overheats, I watched as the coolant spilled out the overflow hose onto the ground so the gauge is reading accurately..........
http://www.harborfreight.com/infrare...ter-93984.html

http://faq.ninja250.org/images/2/28/841135.jpg

Your engine is coming close to seizure when it loses power.
After the coolant starts boiling inside, steam pockets that develop close to the cylinder head are formidable insulators.
The walls of the cylinder get deformed due to excessive-unequally distributed temperature (think of fire heating dry metal) and the pistons grow faster than the steel cylinder, chocking the rings and the pistons and squeezing the oil film that should be in-between them.

Avoid over-heating at all cost.

Spray water across the radiator when over-hot again.
If your radiator cannot reduce the coolant temperature at least 10 degrees (measured inlet temp - measured outlet temperature > 10), there is no enough cooling happening.

These systems are really short, in terms of performance's safety factor.
While doing 75 mph, you need to release to the atmosphere as much heat as the internal combustion is generating, which according to the link is close to 56K BTU per each hour (or 15 BTU per second) of riding.
That amount of heat is able to increase the temperature of 1.5 pounds of water 10 F in one second, which is pretty intense for that marginally sized radiator to radiate out.

Now, that little radiator is greatly helped by the speed of the cooling air.
It becomes very ineffective when that speed is reduced to almost zero; so much that it needs that fan even when the heat is generated is much lower (engine close to/at idle).

Spraying a mist of water on the radiator increases the rate of heat transfer several times; hence, it is a way to verify if that diminished rate is or not the problem that leads to overheating.
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