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Old November 23rd, 2014, 07:45 PM   #1
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Arrow Questions about quick flick for fast cornering

I need the help of the experienced members who race or are simply fast in a track bike.

As many may know, rather than a racer or a persistent track-day rider, I am an old street motorcyclist with the priority of safety and survival.
The quick flick technique is one that I use and practice in order to have a better survival chance in traffic situations.
It has saved me more than once.

Just like hanging off, this is a riding technique described in "ATOTW2".
Nevertheless, it seems that only Keith Code, his school couches and our @Misti insist upon its importance for riding well.

Copied from
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...?showtopic=109

"Can you steer your bike as quickly as you can a car? What does quick turning your bike have to do with your safety? How quick can it be done? Where can you practice it?

Let's take up question number one first. Can you steer your bike as fast as your car? If your answer is "no", my next questions are: What business do you have riding in traffic with cars that can out-maneuver you?, and, Ain't that dangerous? The answers, not pleasant ones to swallow, are: none and yes. You lose.
............
Take a moment to evaluate how quickly you are willing to turn your bike. If there were a scale from 1 to 10, where would you be. After twenty years of intense observation, I place the average motorcycle rider at around 4 on that scale. Is fear of falling a reason? Yes. Not practiced at the art of quick turns? Yes. Very few ever take the time to hone their skill up to the standard of effectiveness needed for the street." - Keith Code


If this is such a good technique for fast cornering, why is seldom discussed in forums or shown in videos?

One can find hundreds of opinions, advise and videos about body position and knee dragging but hardly a handful about straighten and speeding a turn by using this technique.

Even videos posted by fast riders show slow and/or premature flicking on dry pavement, ....... leave alone attempting it in rainy conditions.
I would love to hear from the fast track riders and racers about this phenomenon.

Is this because the technique is simply not understood/appreciated/used among fast riders?

May it be that turning flicking-in close to the outside curb would open the inside of the turns for other racers to pass?

As many attend track days to become safer street riders, is this technique taught and practiced by Novice and Intermediate groups in track-days and schools other than California Superbike School?

Does any Ninjette member use it?
How proficient are you?

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Old November 23rd, 2014, 07:58 PM   #2
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Considering how motocops don't die nearly as often as bikers who aren't motocops, I think they probably undergo some sort of formal training with this technique if it's actually effective.

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old November 24th, 2014, 06:04 AM   #3
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Wow. That's a LOT of traffic cones.

Hernan, good topic. As a long-time street rider and budding track junkie, this is something that's high up on my skills-to-practice list.

I struggle a bit with it... reason being the same as any skill envelope expansion. I don't know what to look for, or what signals will tell me I'm getting too close to the limit.

This causes me to be timid, because I don't want to chuck my bike (and my brittle old body) on the ground.

This probably comes down to the good old trust issue. How hard can you lean on your bike before it'll give way?

There's also the assessment issue that comes with any skills development. What does "good" feel like? Hard to tell sometimes. Maybe I'm doing it right and don't even know it.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 06:16 AM   #4
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Old November 24th, 2014, 06:39 AM   #5
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It was Lee Parks in Total Control who said it's nearly physically impossible for a rider to push the bars so hard, so fast as to push the bike over. A quick flick leaves you leaned and vulnerable the least amount of time. It works nicely with a delayed apex line as well which opens your sight distance up before you initiate the quick turn.
I'm not fast, so I'll leave the racing/track questions for someone else.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 06:44 AM   #6
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Does anyone have links or videos to demonstrate. A whole bunch of retirees/snowbirds in giant buicks make fast reactions a necessity here.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 06:45 AM   #7
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Old November 24th, 2014, 07:05 AM   #8
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I got some info on this but it will take me a bit to put together.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 07:07 AM   #9
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I got a ticket for practicing quick swerves/turns. The HP said it looked unsafe. I told him it was unsafe to not develop this skill.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 08:15 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ally99 View Post
It was Lee Parks in Total Control who said it's nearly physically impossible for a rider to push the bars so hard, so fast as to push the bike over. A quick flick leaves you leaned and vulnerable the least amount of time. It works nicely with a delayed apex line as well which opens your sight distance up before you initiate the quick turn.
I'm not fast, so I'll leave the racing/track questions for someone else.
this is only the case if you have a working steering lock side to side. Unfortunately for me my track bike does not so I'll always need to be conscious about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbinker View Post
I got a ticket for practicing quick swerves/turns. The HP said it looked unsafe. I told him it was unsafe to not develop this skill.
was this in an empty parking lot? because my older brother fought something similar and won ages ago, though that was control over a motorized vehicle in inclement weather. He was having fun using the ice covered lot as a skidpad and argued that he was attempting to learn how to properly react to an icy situation in an effort to be safer on the roads.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 08:24 AM   #11
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Does anyone have links or videos to demonstrate. A whole bunch of retirees/snowbirds in giant buicks make fast reactions a necessity here.
There is a video demonstration in the movie version of TOTWII. It's called "pivot steering". It pays dividends on both street and track. On the street it is helpful to dodge those potholes or other debris in the road, and for those surprise shredded pieces of truck tires on the highway that come outta nowhere in your lane.

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I don't know what to look for, or what signals will tell me I'm getting too close to the limit.
The bike will tell you in many ways or you will trigger a SR and get skeered.

For example; In the below video from a year ago, on my second pass... I quick flick at pace at the top of the hill. I push so hard that the front starts to chatter. Also notice how FAST the bike flops down compared to the first pass without chatter in that spot. I feel it as a vibration in the bars. Sometimes, it's a rumbling vibration, other times it's an outright jackhammer. Since it was my own riding, it took me a long time to figure out what was going on here. Honestly, I was overthinking it and since it didn't happen every lap I knew it was me causing the issue. Can you tell what it is? Hint: Listen instead of look.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Slips from the rear are more common on the bigger bikes such as your gixxer. When you experience it Mr. Fist... you need to go so the suspension tech at the track. I saw enough of your bikes setup already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
This probably comes down to the good old trust issue. How hard can you lean on your bike before it'll give way?
I am assuming "lean on your bike" means "How hard can you push the bars to countersteer"? Hard enough to bend the bar. But.... traction and bike setup also play large roles.

Can you quick flick on;
Cold tires/pavement?
Wet or a loose surface?
Tires that are not scrubbed in/worn out?
While hard on the brakes?
ect.. ect..

Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
There's also the assessment issue that comes with any skills development. What does "good" feel like? Hard to tell sometimes. Maybe I'm doing it right and don't even know it.
Feel like? Hmmmm
Is the bike happy? Did you hit your line? Did you have good throttle control? Is the rider happy? Can you repeat it again the next lap around? If so, then your on your way.

Next would be are you efficient at it? Your bars pivot around the stem parallel to the road. How efficient are you with your arms? Which method of steering will result with the most effective steering with the least amount of effort?
Directly over the bars
Angled to the bars
In line with the bars and road

And... what does pivot steering have to do with efficiency?

Last futzed with by csmith12; November 24th, 2014 at 11:23 AM.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 08:34 AM   #12
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Good topic interested to hear what everyone has to say. I'll be
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Old November 24th, 2014, 09:07 AM   #13
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quick flick lane change has saved me in traffic more times than i can remember.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 09:11 AM   #14
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Hard enough to bend the bar.
i have bent a clipon bar turning in too hard. as you go faster it takes more force so trying to do a quick turn going fast takes a lot of force... make sure you have good bars and not a ****** 22ga piece of tube that just happened to fit.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 09:30 AM   #15
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quick flick lane change has saved me in traffic more times than i can remember.
I just wish I had the same level of confidence when quick flicking all the way down to knee dragging but I'll get there.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 09:32 AM   #16
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this is only the case if you have a working steering lock side to side. Unfortunately for me my track bike does not so I'll always need to be conscious about that.
You should never get anywhere near the steering stops while on the track. Even for the sharpest of corners. If you hit a steering stop while on track, it's most likely because you're crashing.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 09:33 AM   #17
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You should never get anywhere near the steering stops while on the track. Even for the sharpest of corners. If you hit a steering stop while on track, it's most likely because you're crashing.
that's good to know, especially considering that my steering stop is my tank.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 09:37 AM   #18
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I just wish I had the same level of confidence when quick flicking all the way down to knee dragging but I'll get there.
Let's look at that a bit differently young padawan. Because that outlook will have you on your head.

You don't quickflick until knee down, you steer/flick only enough to set your line. If that also happens to put your knee down also, then so be it.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 09:41 AM   #19
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i've hit steering lock on really really small courses (cone courses) but never faster than like 20mph. there's nothing bad about going full lock. it just means if you want to pick up you need to add gas.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 10:49 AM   #20
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this is only the case if you have a working steering lock side to side. Unfortunately for me my track bike does not so I'll always need to be conscious about that.



was this in an empty parking lot? because my older brother fought something similar and won ages ago, though that was control over a motorized vehicle in inclement weather. He was having fun using the ice covered lot as a skidpad and argued that he was attempting to learn how to properly react to an icy situation in an effort to be safer on the roads.
no, it was going down a highway, and it got reduced to speeding with out reason.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 01:07 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Motofool View Post
I need the help of the experienced members who race or are simply fast in a track bike.

As many may know, rather than a racer or a persistent track-day rider, I am an old street motorcyclist with the priority of safety and survival.
The quick flick technique is one that I use and practice in order to have a better survival chance in traffic situations.
It has saved me more than once.

Just like hanging off, this is a riding technique described in "ATOTW2".
Nevertheless, it seems that only Keith Code, his school couches and our @Misti insist upon its importance for riding well.

Copied from
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...?showtopic=109

"Can you steer your bike as quickly as you can a car? What does quick turning your bike have to do with your safety? How quick can it be done? Where can you practice it?

Let's take up question number one first. Can you steer your bike as fast as your car? If your answer is "no", my next questions are: What business do you have riding in traffic with cars that can out-maneuver you?, and, Ain't that dangerous? The answers, not pleasant ones to swallow, are: none and yes. You lose.
............
Take a moment to evaluate how quickly you are willing to turn your bike. If there were a scale from 1 to 10, where would you be. After twenty years of intense observation, I place the average motorcycle rider at around 4 on that scale. Is fear of falling a reason? Yes. Not practiced at the art of quick turns? Yes. Very few ever take the time to hone their skill up to the standard of effectiveness needed for the street." - Keith Code


If this is such a good technique for fast cornering, why is seldom discussed in forums or shown in videos?

One can find hundreds of opinions, advise and videos about body position and knee dragging but hardly a handful about straighten and speeding a turn by using this technique.

Even videos posted by fast riders show slow and/or premature flicking on dry pavement, ....... leave alone attempting it in rainy conditions.
I would love to hear from the fast track riders and racers about this phenomenon.

Is this because the technique is simply not understood/appreciated/used among fast riders?

May it be that turning flicking-in close to the outside curb would open the inside of the turns for other racers to pass?

As many attend track days to become safer street riders, is this technique taught and practiced by Novice and Intermediate groups in track-days and schools other than California Superbike School?

Does any Ninjette member use it?
How proficient are you?

Great great topic I wish I thought of it

I'll see if I can answer some of our questions and keep the discussion rolling. You ask, "If this is such a good technique for fast cornering, why is seldom discussed in forums or shown in videos?"

I honestly think that people take the concept of quick turning or even just "turning" the bike a little bit for granted. They approach a turn, they turn the bike, they get where they want to go with little thought on how quickly they got it all done.

When I work with my students, very rarely have they given conscious thought to how fast they are steering the bike. Until we break it down for them and show them how they can get the bike turned faster with less effort, and until they actually FEEL the positive results of this technique, they don't really realize they aren't turning the bike quickly.

You asked, "Is this because the technique is simply not understood/appreciated/used among fast riders?" and that is kind of what I was trying to explain above ^^. Many fast riders haven't given conscious thought to how fast they are turning the bike, they just get it done. I know I was like that pre-Superbike School coaching... I was pretty fast and I just rode, I didn't know how to break it down further than that. I think if more people took a look at the technique of quick turning they could make big improvements in their lap times.

You also said, "May it be that turning flicking-in close to the outside curb would open the inside of the turns for other racers to pass?" This can be true for some corners, instead of taking a wide approach and slamming the bike into the turn, a racer may take a more defensive line, trail the brakes in and turn the bike a little slower... but you can still work on the technique of quick-turning and getting it to the lean angle you want quicker, every time.

"Does any Ninjette member use it?" I DO!

"How proficient are you?" I think I do ok

Let me ask a few more questions.

What are the main benefits of getting the bike turned quickly? What kinds of things can you accomplish sooner when the bike is leaned over faster? Why do it?

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Old November 24th, 2014, 01:25 PM   #22
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Let me ask a few more questions.

What are the main benefits of getting the bike turned quickly? What kinds of things can you accomplish sooner when the bike is leaned over faster? Why do it?

Hmm, on the streets, it leaves you vulnerable for less amount of time. The quicker you get her turned, the less time you spend leaned over.

The sooner you can turn the bike, the sooner and harder you can get back on the gas, right?
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Old November 24th, 2014, 01:30 PM   #23
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Considering how motocops don't die nearly as often as bikers who aren't motocops, I think they probably undergo some sort of formal training with this technique if it's actually effective.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Interesting you say this as 2 just got killed a few weeks ago hit by drivers.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 01:42 PM   #24
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You ask, "If this is such a good technique for fast cornering, why is seldom discussed in forums or shown in videos?"


I remember an exercise we did in the MSF where you approached the instructor and at the last second they signal you to turn left or right. No idea what they called it but that really drove home just how quick you can lay a bike into a turn for me.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 02:03 PM   #25
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Considering how motocops don't die nearly as often as bikers who aren't motocops, I think they probably undergo some sort of formal training with this technique if it's actually effective.

Link to original page on YouTube.

My uncle teaches this to other motocops. I really need to work with him.
This is a skill I really want to learn.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 02:10 PM   #26
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My uncle teaches this to other motocops. I really need to work with him.
This is a skill I really want to learn.
Seriously. Even though every motocop I've ever met has been a complete prick, I still admire their skill and would love to have the maneuverability they have.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 02:53 PM   #27
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I remember an exercise we did in the MSF where you approached the instructor and at the last second they signal you to turn left or right. No idea what they called it but that really drove home just how quick you can lay a bike into a turn for me.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 02:58 PM   #28
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Seriously. Even though every motocop I've ever met has been a complete prick, I still admire their skill and would love to have the maneuverability they have.
you just gotta go talk to them when they aren't pulling you over! :P
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Old November 24th, 2014, 03:00 PM   #29
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I need to find a motocop to talk to that about, I know there are a few in the city but they mostly do parade type stuff. Last time I talked to one I joked that they should have at least one zx10r as a pursuit unit instead of using their harleys that can't be turned fast.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 03:00 PM   #30
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the sooner and harder you can get back on the gas, right?
just don't add lean and gas at the same time. it makes the rear spin up. even on a 250 if you are adding lean quick enough. doing steering movements takes weight from the rear and puts it up front. so getting grabby with the gas especially in the smaller gears will make it easy to slide the rear. i've crashed twice now because of this.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 03:01 PM   #31
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That is definitely a really easy way to crash, I've gotten the rear to step out doing that
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Old November 24th, 2014, 03:01 PM   #32
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I need to find a motocop to talk to that about, I know there are a few in the city but they mostly do parade type stuff. Last time I talked to one I joked that they should have at least one zx10r as a pursuit unit instead of using their harleys that can't be turned fast.
i think you might be surprised by how quickly those 1800s can get up and go
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Old November 24th, 2014, 03:02 PM   #33
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i'm really bad at rear wheel traction.

i'm always doing stupid burnouts on the 600 instead of wheelies. and in the rain it looks like i'm a drifter. i dont try to make it happen though so its not a good thing. if it was intentional i'd be badass.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 03:02 PM   #34
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i think you might be surprised by how quickly those 1800s can get up and go
straight line acceleration isn't the issue, I know they're torque monsters. They just drag hard parts way too early, or at least look like they will. I know better than to underestimate vehicles though, anything can go fast with the right person riding/driving.
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Old November 24th, 2014, 03:04 PM   #35
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they use the zx14/connie as a cop bike, not the 10r btw
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Old November 24th, 2014, 03:06 PM   #36
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they use the zx14/connie as a cop bike, not the 10r btw
I've never seen a japanese bike being used, but I was going for the overall balance. I believe a zx10r can be faster on public roads than a zx14r with the exclusion of highways. Both would be blisteringly fast though

nice deleted post alex
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Old November 24th, 2014, 04:46 PM   #37
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Seriously. Even though every motocop I've ever met has been a complete prick, I still admire their skill and would love to have the maneuverability they have.
Seriously.. he teaches at the airport, class is for 2 weeks. The first thing they learn is how to pick up the bike, everyone drops it at least once. Last year a guy put his foot down while going down, he ran over his own foot with the foot rest, fractured ankle. He is also one of the officers that go to DC for the motor brocade for the president and... he was part of the motor brocade when the pope when to the final four
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Old November 24th, 2014, 09:18 PM   #38
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...........What are the main benefits of getting the bike turned quickly? What kinds of things can you accomplish sooner when the bike is leaned over faster? Why do it?

Very interesting questions, Misti; thank you!

In essence, getting the bike turned slowly describes a decreasing radius turn (entering trajectory) from vertical to completely leaned.

It is almost painful observing the time that it takes to most street riders to lean their bikes in traffic.
I understand that normal street conditions do not justify quick flicks, but it is wise just to practice as mush as possible, getting ready because some emergency situations will do.

I also understand that MSF basic courses teach quick swerving, but that is a totally different technique.
In that case, the bike flicks back and forth under the rider (who remains more or less vertical), so the relatively small change in direction has less inertia and can be completed quickly.

Quick flick means that you are assertively commanding the machine for transitioning from a rectilinear movement to a circular one as quickly as possible, so bigger circles are not described in such transition.

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Old November 24th, 2014, 10:12 PM   #39
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Reminds me of:

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Old November 24th, 2014, 10:13 PM   #40
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who knew riding bikes would have anything to do with the fibonacci sequence at any point.
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