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Old March 6th, 2018, 09:11 PM   #1
mikesomass
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The classic issue - Bike wont start - Not the Kill switch

Hi All,

I am going through some problems with a new (to me) bike I purchased. My last post was resolved quickly which was fantastic! I appreciate the help.

Lets see if this next issue can be eliminated as well and get me one step closer to riding!!!!!

Bought a used bike (07). Starter worked fine when I was originally inspecting the bike. Turned it off and started it up a good half dozen times.

Once we got the bike home, the starter was not operational any more (perhaps hitting some potholes knocked connections loose?) When pressed, nothing happens at all.

-No click when the starter button is pressed.
-Does Not even try to crank, As a result, it wont bump start.
-Checked all fuses - none blown.
-Given the lack of a click, I thought it might be the Solenoid relay so I -bought a new one, and still have the same issue.
-Took apart the starter button and cleaned the contacts - No help.
-Checked and the side stand safety cutoff - is not stuck in the retracted position.
-Checked Clutch safety cutoff and it moves freely as well.
-Clutch In
-Neutral light on

I can start it by jumping the solenoid relay.

Oh, also the battery is good. Checked with the multimeter. I'm over 12V and I swapped it out with a new battery to be 100%sure, and no change.


What would you suggest I check next?

Thanks for any suggestions!

Cheers,

Mike

Last futzed with by mikesomass; March 6th, 2018 at 09:14 PM. Reason: Added items
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Old March 7th, 2018, 07:49 AM   #2
jkv45
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I think I would get a test light and start tracing the power to determine where it stops.

The safety switches still could be an issue, read through this section to see if there is anything you might have missed -

https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Unders...afety_switches - especially the "Details" section.
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Old March 7th, 2018, 04:21 PM   #3
94droptop
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You should go ahead and loop the harness on the switches just to be 100% that its not them
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Old March 7th, 2018, 08:23 PM   #4
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Yeah, defeat the interlocks one at a time and test starting. The bad one will let you start when it's bypassed.
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Old March 7th, 2018, 08:24 PM   #5
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I agree with the test light suggestion sounds like a loose connection but check to be 100% sure the buddy who owned it before didnt wire in a secret kill switch
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Old March 8th, 2018, 08:42 AM   #6
mikesomass
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Thanks Guys. I'll do a thorough inspection this weekend and hopefully report back with success!!
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Old March 9th, 2018, 09:09 AM   #7
mikesomass
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Quick update

I rolled the bike down a couples houses to a buddy who used to be an auto tech.

He indicted said the following:

"I think I found the issue. The junction box has a bunch of resistors inside. The one that is inline with the trigger wire for the Solenoid has no continuity. I has power coming in when I press the starter switch but no power coming out..."

He was recommending that I get an electronics guy to look at soldering the board or just buy another one.

All this sounds Greek to me, but I'll order a new one and hopefully that resolves the issue. If so, or if not, I'll update this thread.
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Old March 9th, 2018, 09:53 AM   #8
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That's not resistor. It's a diode and blocks current in one direction (power on one side, no power on other). So it tested fine by mechanic and is doing what it should. It does AND/OR logic with clutch, neutral, kickstand switches. One of those switches is causing the problem.
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Old March 9th, 2018, 11:51 AM   #9
mikesomass
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Okay since I am new to bikes and electrics I need to make sure I am on the same page as you. When I hear diode I think of something else as the diodes I have seen referenced on YouTube videos tend to look like larger plastic units that connect wires.

So what I was shown is this unit " Junction Box"

Specifically within the junction box I was shown the circuit board (attached) where all the fuses plug into. The board was then flipped so we were looking at the back of the board with all the…silver... solder compound (I have no idea what it’s called).

What buddy did, was connect the multimeter to those silver areas areas and we would look at the voltage. When the starter button was pressed, the voltage would spike on the multi meter. The only one it did not do this one, was the third in pin set along.


These are not photos from the unit off my bike but they are similar if not identical. I can take photos of mine later tonight when I am home. All of the other pins we have a voltage spike except for the one outlines in red.


So to confirm, the area I’m referencing in red is a diode and its working as it should?

Thanks for your patience. I am working on become less mechanically useless. Learning as I go
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Old March 9th, 2018, 05:49 PM   #10
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Yes, those are diodes underneath the metal strips. And they tested fine if you have power on one side and not the other. Being solid state electronics, they rarely go bad. I have never, ever heard of one going bad in a Ninja 250 on its entire production run from 1986 to now. Never heard of one going bad on any other bikes either; that's millions and millions of bikes! And I've been riding 35-years. They don't go bad on any other automotive applications either, except for overdriving too-small alternators.





How Diodes Work
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode
https://www.electrical4u.com/diode-w...types-of-diode

You're on the right track in that you've narrowed it down to the interlock circuits. Now you should just work out the AND/OR logic of which of the ignition, kickstand, neutral, kill, clutch or start-switch is causing you problems. In programming, there's a table known as a finite-state-machine that lists all possible states of a circuit based upon the inputs. Make a table like that with ON/OFF states of ignition, kickstand, neutral, kill, clutch and start-switch and the corresponding states of voltage at starter-relay and it'll point you in the right direction...

... or you just test the switches...

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; March 22nd, 2018 at 05:51 PM.
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Old March 9th, 2018, 06:03 PM   #11
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Check the following before starting:

1. ignition switch set to ON
2. kickstand UP
3. neutral light ON
4. clutch lever IN
5. run/stop kill switch set to RUN
6. now press START

Each one of those components connect to one or more of each other in a logic AND/OR circuit. Test each component before blaming the diode. Mechanical switches are much, much, extremely much more likely to fail ; stuck in an ON or OFF state than solid state electronics. Heck, START button's most likely culprit as they get banged up on the tank all the time. Many a starter's been fried by START buttons stuck ON.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; March 10th, 2018 at 06:15 PM.
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Old March 10th, 2018, 07:11 PM   #12
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Also do not check fuses, that's a waste of time and money.

Test fuse#3 and Main 30a fuse on starter-relay by removing them and measuring the resistance across their legs. I'd be extremely rich if I had a penny each time a fuse that "checks" out OK, but actually doesn't conduct any electricity.
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Old March 10th, 2018, 09:34 PM   #13
mikesomass
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Okay First off - thanks all for the help. Way beyond what I was expecting. Genuine thank you to everyone and for the links - learned a lot. and thanks for the photos and write up DannoXYZ.

And DannoXYZ, you were indeed correct. A switch was the issue. Specifically the clutch safety switch. It was not secured properly. I was under the impression that the bike being in neutral bypassed the clutch safety. clearly not.

Going to put it all back tomorrow morning and should be on the road shortly after that if it all goes as planned.

Thanks all.

Until next time (and there will no doubt be a next time).

-Mike
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Old March 11th, 2018, 12:41 AM   #14
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You're welcome! Glad you found the problem!

Yeah, clutch-switch is centre of a bizarre AND/OR logic-switch that's not logical!
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Old March 11th, 2018, 09:10 AM   #15
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I get the safety switch thing. It is caused by potiental lawsuits and the nanny state we live in. My stinking 2009 Harley has got it right. No safety switches there. Hit start button the engine is going to turn over, in first gear, kick stand down, clutch not pulled in. The bike is going to launch. If you are toooooo stupid to figure out how to start a bike you need to get another hobby.

I went to the Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawaski booths at Daytone Bike Week yesterday. If you ask real nice the may let you sit on one.
Go over to the Harley tent, fill out a form, show your endorsed driver's and take a Hog for a ride. No supervision, just jump on and go.

As soon as I get a chance ever safety switch on my 250 Ninja is getting disconnected. I don't need some stinking cheap switch, installed for people who should know how to start a bike, ruin my day.

Sit on you bike, turn the key, pull in the clutch, lift the kickstand and push the go button. I fly airplanes, "no safety switches". Could you imagine you engine failing in flight because a $5.00 dollar switch fails.
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Old March 11th, 2018, 02:54 PM   #16
Dab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikesomass View Post
Okay First off - thanks all for the help. Way beyond what I was expecting. Genuine thank you to everyone and for the links - learned a lot. and thanks for the photos and write up DannoXYZ.

And DannoXYZ, you were indeed correct. A switch was the issue. Specifically the clutch safety switch. It was not secured properly. I was under the impression that the bike being in neutral bypassed the clutch safety. clearly not.

Going to put it all back tomorrow morning and should be on the road shortly after that if it all goes as planned.

Thanks all.

Until next time (and there will no doubt be a next time).

-Mike
glad you found it happy riding!
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