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Old August 13th, 2019, 03:12 PM   #1
DannoXYZ
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an Exhausting Tale!!!

While going through whole-bike rebuild on two new-gens, which started out as just changing oil in front-forks of my race-bike, I found pile of exhausts. Figured I'd document them.

FACTORY OEM EXHAUST
2.5cm = diameter at exhaust port outlet
52cm = left header length
45cm = right header length
3.5cm = diameter after merge
3.5cm = diameter just before muffler



Factory header consists of straight pipe that goes directly into exhaust-port with flanges welded onto it. Supposedly merge has mini catalytic converter. Pipe diameter after merge is 1.96x cross-sectional area as individual header tubes. A perfect match for 2x flow. Pipe stays same diameter all way to muffler

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Old August 13th, 2019, 03:13 PM   #2
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TYGA
2.8cm = diameter at exhaust port outlet
51cm = left header length
47cm = right header length
3.5cm= diameter after merge
4.25cm = diameter just before muffler





Tyga has very nice design from 409-stainless. It uses separate header flange that has small enough pipe to fit into exhaust port since header-pipe is just bit too large to fit into 2.75cm ID of exhaust port. Very smooth merge collector going into mid-pipe diameter of only 1.6x larger cross-section than header. This may pose slight restriction in order to keep velocity high. Expanding into 4.25cm section at end before going into muffler with nice transition cone. Has bung for wideband-O2 for datalogging and tuning.

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Old August 13th, 2019, 03:13 PM   #3
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AREA P
3.1cm = diameter at exhaust port outlet
49cm = left header length
47cm = right header length
3.8cm = diameter after merge
4.5cm = diameter just before muffler





AreaP uses 304-stainless and has welded-on flange section that goes into exhaust-port. It has largest header diameter which also merges into pipe of 1.5x cross-sectional area. Note design of merge doesn’t use collector and is not as smooth for flow and lack of cone transition to muffler. Welds are also not very nice or consistent. No mid-pipe hanger and no bung for wideband.

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Old August 13th, 2019, 03:14 PM   #4
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ALI EL-CHEAPO SNAKE
2.8cm = diameter at exhaust port outlet
63cm = left header length
61cm = right header length
3.7cm = diameter after merge
3.5cm = diameter mid-pipe section
4.5cm = diameter just before muffler
5.1cm = diameter muffler interface






I call this Ali exhaust "Snake" due to its multiple extra bends and curves compared to stock. It runs down left side of bike and claims to be compatible with pre-gen, new-gen and 300 models. It's made from sand-blasted 304-stainless which gives nice matt-finish that's more tolerance of greasy fingers. Out of all exhausts, it has an actual down-size in diameter in mid-section after merge, going from 3.7cm to 3.5cm. This is done to generate slip-fit of rear-section.

It does have nice non-collector merge and conical transition to end-section. Nice final expanded section to fit directly into Ali universal mufflers with 5.1cm ID, so no adapter-cones or silly mid-pipe adapter pieces needed. Due to extra length, extra bends and step-down mid-section this is worse design of them all. No mid-pipe hanger since there's no hanger-tab on left side of engine anyway. Does come with O2-sensor bung, however, only samples exhaust from #1 runner only.

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Old August 13th, 2019, 03:14 PM   #5
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EX250 - 1ST-GEN '86-87
3.1cm = diameter at exhaust port outlet
31.5cm = left header length
31.5cm = right header length
3.15cm = diameter after merge
3.2 = diameter just before muffler



EX500 - '95-09
3.5cm = diameter at exhaust port outlet
59cm = left header length
59cm = right header length
3.5cm = diameter after merge
3.5cm = diameter just before muffler



DISCUSSION
One thing I noticed with new-gen exhausts was difference in header-length between #1 and #2 cylinders. Anyone know why? I suspect it has something to do with uneven firing-order.

All new-gen exhausts has pipe that slides into 2.75cm opening of exhaust-port, causing reduction in diameter. This would appear to be more restrictive design than pre-gen/EX500 exhausts which butts up header-pipe to outside of exhaust-port without narrowing it down. Wondering if modifying new-gen exhaust to be similar would yield some gains. After all, it doesn't matter if you open up header-pipe to 28 or 31mm afterwards, exhaust still has to squeeze through 25mm bottleneck just to get out of exhaust ports.

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Old August 13th, 2019, 04:47 PM   #6
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Now make dyno curves for all of them.
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Old August 13th, 2019, 06:33 PM   #7
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hi all is the ali el cheapo snake exhaust fits the 08-12 250r???
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Old August 13th, 2019, 08:25 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Lucagst View Post
hi all is the ali el cheapo snake exhaust fits the 08-12 250r???
I'm going to test it on my pregen as well as newgen. Let's see if their claims are correct that it'll fit both.
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Old August 14th, 2019, 03:11 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
Now make dyno curves for all of them.
Here it is!!!

TYGA RACE SYSTEM vs. STOCK


AREA-P RACE SYSTEM vs. STOCK


Note both of these make peak-HP about 2000rpms higher than stock. Tyga manages to eek out slight advantage over Area-P. I suspect this is due to Tyga using true merge-collector vs. Area-P's reverse U-bend. Also Tyga has conical expansion section towards end just before muffler whereas Area-P just has sharp sudden step-up in diameter.

On 250-FI model, Area-P does manage to extract another +5hp over these by going to pod-filters and using programmable piggyback on top of factory ECU to manage fuel and timing adjustments much more precisely than carb models. This ends up making a little more power than Ninja 300 whereas carbed ones are a little under. Comparing my bone-stock 250 vs. race-bike with +6hp really does make it feel closer to 300. Laptimes at track are also slightly faster than stock 300 due to lighter weight (both on track tyres).

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Old August 14th, 2019, 06:53 AM   #10
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Thanks Danno - that's a lot of info!
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Old August 14th, 2019, 09:12 AM   #11
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So... burning question I've been wondering for a while now:

Why is it that in the motorcycle world, piggyback ECU's like the power commander or Bazzaz are commonplace, but in the car world, standalone ECU's are typically the way to go? It's strange, but it seems to generally be true. My "car guy" friends swear by standalone and think that piggyback is a waste of money, and my "bike guy" friends all have piggyback units and there doesn't seem to be many standalone ECU's for motorcycles. Any theories?
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Old August 14th, 2019, 01:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choneofakind View Post
So... burning question I've been wondering for a while now:

Why is it that in the motorcycle world, piggyback ECU's like the power commander or Bazzaz are commonplace, but in the car world, standalone ECU's are typically the way to go? It's strange, but it seems to generally be true. My "car guy" friends swear by standalone and think that piggyback is a waste of money, and my "bike guy" friends all have piggyback units and there doesn't seem to be many standalone ECU's for motorcycles. Any theories?
I suspect there's several contributing factors that drives bike market compared to autos.

1. later adoption of EFI on bikes only in last 10-15yrs. This leads to lower percentage of bikes on street being upgraded having EFI anyway (compared to autos).

2. fewer tech-savvy EFI tuners. Fewer shops (and percentage of shops) with EFI experience, much less with EFI systems upgrades.

3. bikes' mapping doesn't need much adjustment. Typically upgrades on bikes don't yield large improvements like on autos.


I think all above (and others) are in a vicious circle keeping EFI-upgrades on bikes in dark-ages. Big part of it is autos have been more choked with government-regulations and emissions-controls for much longer. So when converting street-car into race-car, removing these restrictions yields large enough improvements in flow, that factory ECU cannot be modified or piggyback-adjusted enough to work well. Street-bikes on other hand, have fewer regulations, so they tend to be in higher state of tune right out of factory. Bike upgrades tend to yield smaller improvements and factory ECU can be retained and tuned with just piggyback adjustments.

Auto's regulations also have part in this rift. Ever since 2000 or so, OBD-II regulations required opening up ECU's programming. This allowed lots of tuners to decipher their coding and do wholesale re-mapping of factory ECUs. A lot of tuners are getting Honda ECUs and harness from junkyard cars and using Hondata software to turn it into programmable standalone EFI system for different cars, such as Eclipse.

Back in mid-'90s, I was able to re-map Bosch Motronics on Porsches by erasing and re-writing 2764 EPROMs. Was also able to inject additional code with IDApro, such as ignition-retard based upon ambient air-temperature. This has now pretty much been open-sourced with TunerStudio and Moats Ostrich.

Bikes on other hand, are more closed systems with few tuners able to crack ECU settings. Those that do, charge arm & leg for this service or sell the software at extreme prices. This has damping effect on bike-upgrade market and drives many end-users to piggyback/interceptors that allow them to make their own adjustments. And most end-users don't have tech-background to wire-up their own standalone EFI system with custom harness.

And one other aspect is those end-users themselves. As a group (bell-curve), bikers who upgrade their bikes doesn't seem to be as tech-savvy as those upgrading their autos. Even last bastions holdouts for carbs on autos, muscle-car crowd and NASCAR, are gladly embracing EFI. They've found that tuning for boost is much, much easier with EFI and getting +600bhp out of small-blocks is routine now, whereas before, it costs A LOT more money and time with carbs for similar outputs.

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Old August 15th, 2019, 02:59 PM   #13
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I wonder way only the oem exhausts have that cross over tube?
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Old August 15th, 2019, 07:03 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Ceeloo Yello View Post
I wonder way only the oem exhausts have that cross over tube?
That's for improving mid-range torque. Similar to tri-Y 4-2-1 header on 4-cylinder exhaust.
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Old August 16th, 2019, 05:36 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
I suspect there's several contributing factors that drives bike market compared to autos.
I had similar thoughts, was wondering if you knew something I didn't.

Side note though: a company that sponsors my buddy's race team, Performance Electronics, I believe... has a standalone ECU out for motorcycles. I've gotten to see some of their R&D/applications side of things with two cars now and they've impressed me.
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Old January 30th, 2022, 07:08 PM   #16
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Adding Area-P pre-gen 2-1 exhaust info here: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13852
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Old February 4th, 2022, 01:33 AM   #17
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Danno: I'd like to comment on your question of the exhaust flange matter...
in my experience on bikes in general when making an exhaust change I simply think FLOW... if you can reduce any restriction anywhere along that flow you will definitely see an improvement. this holds true for 2 strokes as well as 4 strokes... so when the stock exhaust pipe has a flange that goes into the head and then gets bigger just after it , you definitely have a restriction point !
as you suggested.... but that is a hard area to improve upon your restricted by
several things the exhaust port itself and the pipe diameter and the way the pipe is attached. which is very important !....
In my 2 stroke porting years I found almost every 2 stroke made had a restriction at the exhaust port going into a larger exhaust pipe so grinding away the metal in the port was a no brainer that one modification alone always made a huge difference in the way the bike ran ! if you can some how open up the exhaust port to receive the larger tube I am sure you would see a big improvement ! ....obviously but doing that and having no leaks is not always easy !
....
on a few of the 4 strokers that I ported and polished I even went so far as to taper the tube that went into the head so the flow was easier to pass through
without changing the internal diameter of the exhaust port....even that small of an improvement on the exhaust pipe itself helped alot !
if the exhaust pipe you are using has 30 or so square edge pipes welded into it..... it's junk because you can never improve the flow in that !
i see that mistake being made in hundreds of designs of exhaust pipes being offered for sale on the market today tubes slid inside tubes is fine if they do it the right way but usually they do not ! smaller tube into a bigger tube is fine when the exhaust is going out it.... turn the thing around and it becomes a restriction to the flow. exhaust pipes should only get bigger as they leave the head if they do not they are worse than junk they are a hinderance !
.... I have seen from the 1970's on a campane of screwed up exhaust pipes on Honda motorcycles that is enough to make me scream you take a 175cc engine and it's 1.25" exhaust header pipe and restrict it down to a 5/8" exhaust outlet and brag about how quiet it is ..... but they don't want to talk about how poorly the motor preforms with the new exhaust system on it
.... for some Unknown reason the false idea of back pressure has taken hold on the manufacturers and they are running with it !
I've had it explained to me by salesmen how you have to have back pressure
for the bike to even run ! as other stories just as silly !
....
Bob.....
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Old June 5th, 2022, 08:07 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post

DISCUSSION
One thing I noticed with new-gen exhausts was difference in header-length between #1 and #2 cylinders. Anyone know why? I suspect it has something to do with uneven firing-order.
I belive it has to do with the fact that the exhaust runs on the #2 side. That, and the H-pipe probably has a tuned length. The position of that pipe (how far from the exh valve) is probably also result of trial and error.

The engine fires #1 -180°, 2#. Then 540° nothing.
So, when the first cylinder has a longer pipe to collector, that makes exhaust pulses cross over each other even more.

Many Asian aftermarket manifolds have the pipes just running parallel. Without an H-pipe.

Last futzed with by petrolhead; June 6th, 2022 at 07:24 AM.
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