2006 250R, cranks but no start

[frostyflammable]

Originally Posted by DannoXYZ

Ok frosty, let's do some simple stuff before you have to go through complications of removing carbs and doing full restoration job:

1. where did you get your new plugs? There's A LOT of countrefeit plugs on maket. Some links on spotting them:
https://www.ngkntk.com/newsroom/blog...to-avoid-them/
https://www.blingstrom.com/modmonday...ce-ilfr6b-6481
https://www.diycarserviceparts.co.uk...k-spark-plugs/
Can also try putting old plugs back in.

2. what colour is spark when you tested plugs?

3. with key ON, what voltage do you measure at red wires on each coil?

4. test petcock flow. Disconnect fuel-hose from carbs and aim into measuring cup. Apply vacuum to petcock's vaccum line. How much petrol flowed out in 15-sec?

5. do carb bypass test. Easier to put airbox on and pour 2-3cc petrol down holes in top. No squirt bottle needed. Some will drip out seam at bottom, that's Ok (have fire-extinguisher ready).

Reason to do this test with airbox is volume of air in box helps vapourise petrol and gives you more run-time to validate test. Engine can actually run for 5-10s on petrol poured into airbox. Versus may get only 1-2 sputters by pouring into intake directly because liquid petrol doesn't ignite and burn. And after 1-2 revolutions, all that unburned liquid petrol will have been ejected out exhaust.


Alright, with this info, we may be just one step away from getting your bike running!

1. I got my spark plugs at O'Reilly, I am aware of the fake NKGs and I only buy mine at a reputable auto store and go thought he visual checks for fakes.

2. Color I would say is white-ish. May have a hint of blue in it but if I remember correctly mostly white.

3. I will have to check this once I am back at the shop.

4. Gas tank is currently off the bike, I am using a small gas tank for just testing. Its a spun aluminum round tank I keep around for just testing so I know there is fuel flow.

5. Airbox is quite a pain to take in and out but I will try and do it for testing, if I can confirm at least that it will try and run by bypassing the carb at least I know where the problem is.

[frostyflammable]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

LOL I write how I think.....scaterbrained !
ok it takes Gas, compression, and ignition. for an engine to start, and they have to be in the right order... which complicates it a bit.
although 90% of the "Questionables" you have already been through Dan...
so which ones haven't you attacked yet ?
you got compression now,
you THINK you got correct spark Now
what do you know about the fuel situation ?
....
from what I gather here on Ninjette the tiny side tubes from the main jet and pilot jet are the main offenders on these carbs DID YOU Clean them spicificly ?
when you cleaned the carbs ? or just a float bowl cleaning and knock the stuff out of the jets ?
.....
if my guess is right, those side tubes are the air inlet to the emulsfier tubes
for both the main jet and the pilot jet... gas will go up them about half way
and if it set's long enough it will solidify and plug the passage.
that alone is a show stopper ! it won't run worth doo doo if those are even partly plugged... in your case it may not fire at all because of it. ( which i am leaning toward as the cause.) the engine can't get ATOMIZED fuel...
it will get Raw fuel but it won't be atomized...
so wet plugs means your getting fuel but it doesn't tell you if it is Atomized or not....
in days gone by all you needed to know was if the thing was getting fuel or not, but these things are very particular on their 14:1 air to fuel ratio if it's say 20:1 it might not run at all, if it's 5: 1 it certainly won't ! and yet there is no way to tell what kind of Ratio you are getting out of the carbs without it running....
so your at a delima ... Answer Danno's questions then clean the carbs again
unless you find something else !!!

a year or so ago I had a 1998 XS 650 Yamaha Twin Heritage model
and it had set for well over 10 years... so I knew the carbs needed to be thoroughly cleaned.... I did so ... and did it again... and again... but the last time I discovered a tube machined into the float bowl that was completely plugged
I had never seen such a thing on ANY float bowl before !
I finally got them cleaned and back on and it fired right up !
.....
it's what you don't know, that get's ya !!!!!!!
....
later !
Bob........

Ashamed to admit it, but I did not take the tubes or the thingamabob that they are connected to from the middle of the two carbs. When I initially did clean the carb all I did was use spray carb cleaner and compressed air and took out all the jets and the A/F screws, but left those tubes attached.

Since this Simplegreen thing looks to be questionable at best I may pick up something like those Chem Dip cleaner that come in gallon jugs or something see if that helps once I cam confirm it will run if I just spray some gas into the carbs / airbox directly.

[frostyflammable]

So much good info here, I appreciate it a lot. Once I get back to the shop I will continue with these troubleshooting steps provided.

--Dan

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by frostyflammable

5. Airbox is quite a pain to take in and out...

At some point you might want to do the airbox/battery box separation mod.

[frostyflammable]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

At some point you might want to do the airbox/battery box separation mod.

That is definitely on the to do list, seems like an easy enough mod to do... there are so many things I want to do to this bike as long as I can get this engine to work.

--Dan

[DannoXYZ]

Technique I've found to work well is to not remove airbox at all. I haven't even separated battery-tray from airbox:

CARB-REMOVAL

1. remove tank & throttle+choke cables

2. loosen fully clamps between rubber-manifolds and carbs (leave manifolds clamped to head)

3. unbolt airbox from frame

4. pull carbs+airbox combo off rubber-manifolds and back 1-2cm (this gap is all you need to remove carbs)

5. fully loosen clamps on LEFT rubber-manifolds to head

6. pry off and wiggle/remove LEFT rubber-manifold from head

7. roll up spring-clamps between carbs & airbox

8. pull off carbs from airbox and wiggle out left side



CARB INSTALLATION - almost same in reverse

1. wiggle carbs in from left side

2. wiggle carbs onto airbox boots, slide whole assembly back as far as it will go

3. wiggle/squeeze in LEFT rubber manifold, click onto head

4. tighten LEFT rubber manifold to head

5. slide carbs onto rubber manifolds and tighten clamps

6. slide airbox onto carbs and roll down spring-clamps

7. install cables


It takes no more than 5-minutes to remove and re-install carbs by leaving airbox in place. Just slide it backwards.

[Triple Jim]

My '07 had rubber boot shrinkage and I could not the the connection to the carbs to stay sealed until I did the battery box - airbox separation. I'd get them connected and get the clamps on, and go for a ride. When I got back the boots had slipped off the carbs.

[Bob KellyIII]

that's a good explanation of the carb removal Danno ! Thanks !
Jim what is this AIRBOX / BATTERY BOX SEPERATION.... that you speak of ?
do you have a link ?
when I took my carbs off it was a trial of getting enough room to get them out
from the beginning... the manual said move the airbox/battery box back , so I did... and I eventually got them out...but it was a battle all the way.
their not like a DT1's carb ! LOL....
...
I didn't separate the carbs on mine I left the hoses between them alone as they looked good. and I know from previous experience you don't separate the carbs unless you have to. it's alot more needless hassel
....
However in this case I think these carbs need a good thorough cleaning
how you go about it Dan is your choice, you know what to look for and you can get them super clean this time. hang in there
and when you get back to the bike you can attack it with a fervor and get it going in short order !
....
Bob.......

[Triple Jim]

https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Batter...r_carb_removal

And my little addition:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=291123

[Bob KellyIII]

Thanks Triple Jim !
....in my opinion the Kawasaki 250R is a NIGHTMARE of engineered screwups
from beginning to end ! all to have that pirty fairing on the outside....
the air box is one good example... pull the inner fender well off the bike to get the air box out ???? what were they thinking ? AURGH !
.... I have never ran into so many engineered Mistakes on any other machine yet.... every where you look on this thing it's a screw up !
Obviously, I am less enchanted with the bike now that I've had it a while.LOL
it's a very good looking bike but to give up ease of work ability for that good looking-ness..... was a big mistake !
.... I am considering selling it just because it is so darn hard to work on !
....
Bob........

[ducatiman]

Though not directly related, I've done a similar mod to my 900SS Ducati...10 minutes, I'm in my carbs WITHOUT touching battery/electrics /airbox related mounting.

Edited to add: though tank must be lifted (its hinged) and side fairings *must* be removed, to enable access.

[Triple Jim]

I have no problem working on mine. Lose the fairings and trim the side plastic, separate the airbox, and it's as good as any motorcycle.

[frostyflammable]

Decided to try the cleaning the carb one more time since after today won't have the time to work on it for the next two or three weeks. I am 100% sure now that the carb is clean, I soaked it in ChemDip for a few hours followed by a batch in ultrasonic cleaner which did a nice job. I sprayed carb cleaner through every single hole and it came out another part of the carb... the jets, after the ChemDip looked brand new and I was able to clean the inside and outside thoroughly. I know I am getting gas into the engine now, I can smell it on the spark plug and I want to say I smelled it out of the exhaust but cannot remember for sure if I tested that. Still just cranks with no firing.

The coils have 12.5-13v on them when the ignition is on and it does drop while cranking but still above 11.5.

Since I will be spending quite a lot of time on planes in the next couple of weeks I will do some light service manual reading... at this point I want to test the pickup coil and see if that maybe is not good, or the igniter. I dropped my multimeter today when I was taking it out of the toolbox so I currently do not have a multimeter to test all those.

Just an update for everyone, and I hope to get back on troubleshooting this as soon as I am back from the work trip.

Thanks for the help so far, this has been one very frustrating thing but one by one eliminating what it could be, I hope.

--Dan

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

Thanks Triple Jim !
....in my opinion the Kawasaki 250R is a NIGHTMARE of engineered screwups
from beginning to end ! all to have that pirty fairing on the outside....
the air box is one good example... pull the inner fender well off the bike to get the air box out ???? what were they thinking ? AURGH !
.... I have never ran into so many engineered Mistakes on any other machine yet.... every where you look on this thing it's a screw up !
Obviously, I am less enchanted with the bike now that I've had it a while.LOL
it's a very good looking bike but to give up ease of work ability for that good looking-ness..... was a big mistake !
.... I am considering selling it just because it is so darn hard to work on !
....
Bob........

Well, this bike was designed to certain price-point and bound to have some design compromises. I've spent tonnes of time replacing bare-brass electrical terminals with tin-coated ones and soldering them. Most of target audience for this bike are not likely to be DIY types anyway.

Carb-removal is not that difficult once you develop effective techniques. I switch jetting at track daily and only require 15-minutes to remove carbs, change jets and re-install. Without having to remove airbox. I use 96 mains in morning when air's cooler and switch to 94 in afternoon when things heat up. Worth about 1/2-sec/lap.

Jim's issue is due to crispified rubbers holding carbs. I had that problem on my 2002 when I first put it together. Was going to remove airbox to cut off battery tray, but figured I'd fix hard-rubber issue. Used procedure below to restore rubbers back to supple brand-newness!

Also did same for my '86 VF500 10yrs ago which had original rubber manifolds. Still have factory-fresh softness today! V4 config makes getting carbs out & in difficult and hard rubbers makes it impossible. Did same procedure to restore rubbers on my newly acquired VFR750 as well.

Originally Posted by DannoXYZ

Yes there IS way to restore oils back into rubber that have evaporated over time. You’ll need:

- bottle isopropyl alcohol +90%
- small 4oz bottle Oil of Wintergreen (methyl salicylate)
- small bottle glycerin
- some empty glass jars (peanut butter, jam, etc)

Pour into glass jar:

1-part Oil of Wintergreen
1-part glycerin
3-parts alcohol

Stir well and drop in your rock-hard rubber part so it’s completely submerged. Screw jar lid on and let sit for 1-4 days depending upon hardness. Shake jar regularly if you see separation. Remove rubber and wipe off excess fluid. That’s it! Soft pliable rubber just like new!!!

Note: use nitrile gloves to handle. Large doses of methyl salycilate can be poisonous. Also some people use acetone instead of alcohol for faster "wicking" action.

[Bob KellyIII]

Weird Dan !!!! it should at least Try to fire.... you have compression & fuel... so it HAS to be Electrical.
As I think I stated before I have a machine that will not fire if the battery is down even a little bit, it's a Honda 4 wd quad with the electric shift B.S.
its in new condition ... but I do not mess with it at all. it will crank over fine but the dash is a bit goofie and it won't shift... then I know it won't fire till I charge the battery....
... their may be a fault in the brain box on that thing Dan... as you said it drops to 11 volts when cranking and that may mean it stops sparking the plugs
... I remedied my problem with the quad by putting a car battery on the back rack.... and tried it.... and it cured the problem even with the shifting !
you might try that ...but I am not sure what that will do to the bikes electrics.
as some things are sensitive to amperage. I got away with it on the Quad
but I must caution you on doing it... I doubt it will hurt it, BUT IT COULD !
(if it fried the ecu you'd be looking at an expensive replacement part !)
....
I've used car batteries several times on bikes to get them up and running
and never had a problem. they have much more reserve amperage and provide more cranking power. I jumped my XS650 several times as the battery would not hold a charge so I just jumped it from the car battery
never hurt a thing.... and it shouldn't, as long as you get the positive to the positive and negative to negative !!!!
.... use your own judgment !
.....
Bob.......

[Bob KellyIII]

Good to Know Danno !!!!!
I've always just spreyed WD-40 on the boots and anything plastic and rub it in good... it helps I think.... it helps the side walls of tires as well but you need to really wipe them off good ! they will still be slick as snot ! so don't corner hard after doing that !
....Bob.......

[frostyflammable]

Just did a closer look on the engine. Does this mean the engine is from a 1987?

—Dan

[frostyflammable]

Searching on the faq.ninja250 site it would seem this engine is from a 2004 model year bike, the frame/electronics are a 2006. Not sure anymore if this engine really only had 10K miles like the frame but at least it had been gone though on the top end.
Would the electronics in a 2006 by chance not be compatible with a 2004 motor?

The CDI box for a 2004 is part 21119-1415, while for a 2006 is a 21119-0010. Not familiar with Kawasaki part numbers but would that last four make a difference is the engine running?

—Dan

[Bob KellyIII]

OH,,, sorry I can't help with that question... I would think they should be but I do not know for a fact !
Bob......

[Triple Jim]

I believe the 2004 and 2006 models are essentially the same. I'm pretty sure the TCI modules are interchangeable.

[Triple Jim]

This might help:

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=251806

[DannoXYZ]

Carbs are still dirty. Without extensive scrubbing of hidden secret passages. Without ultrasonic soak. Without micro soda-blasting. They will not be factory fresh clean.

https://www.cbr250.com/threads/bike-...3/#post-324384

Please humour me and just dribble teaspoon of petrol down each carb throat will ya? Thx

[frostyflammable]

@DannoXYZ, will def try ass on as I am back home in a couple of weeks.
Regarding timing, does it matter which time the 2T mark is in the sight window? I thought it doesn’t but figured I would ask. For some reason I think (didn’t really pay attention just a maybe) that I saw some air come out of cylinder 2 when cranking but could be wrong.

[DannoXYZ]

2T has 2 different orientations of cams. One TDC of exhaust stroke and other TDC compression. Verify alignment and turn 360-degrees to 2T again. One should match manual.

Ignition timing doesn’t matter. it just fires every time flywheel trigger comes around to TDC. End up with one spark at end of compression stroke and one spark at end of exhaust stroke (wasted spark).