More chain trouble: 2-month old chain, O-Ring failure at master link. :( What now?

[CZroe]

OK, I'm on my third chain. I replaced my first chain at 12.5K miles when I had my new sprockets installed. It still looked great despite me not taking good care of it.

I took much better care of the replacement, though I admit that it still wasn't nearly lubing it every 200 miles or after every rain like I'm supposed to (I ride/commute daily; rain or shine). The problem I had less than a year later was seemingly caused by the rivet link the dealer insisted I buy from them when having them do the work (I supplied the chain). They cautioned against the included clip-type and, instead, installed a mis-matched link. This caused binding and severe sprocket/chain wear. It was so bad that I had to switch back to my old larger rear sprocket to gain some adjustability in the chain and I soon lost that too.

Now, I had an independant shop install my third latest chain a couple months ago and they were VERY critical of the dealer's work. They specifically called them on their error saying that those guys should have known that you "NEVER mix chain and link types or manufacturers!" I trust their work. I don't think they did anything wrong when installing my new chain (third one), but it is a cheap $27 chain from D2Moto, but it was either that or the $29 one at Cycle Gear (not blue + couldn't afford anything more + needed a chain ASAP). I don't know if it is the same manufacturer as my last chain, but they were both blue and I do still have the clip-type master link that the previous guys did not use (this one is not as light-colored).

So, what should I do? I have work tomorrow. Even if I can get a matching master link, is it safe to throw it on there and continue using it? I have no idea how long the chain was ridden like this. The piece of an O-Ring is still there, pinched but not by the plates it was supposed to fit between. Those are pressed against eachother when they should not be. Even if my old master link isn't a perfect match, would it be safer than riding without the O-Ring at all? How about just using the O-Rings from it? Actually, I'm not sure if I have the O-Rings since the previous service guys may not have kept them for me, so it may not be an option at all. I don't have the lube you are supposed to use with it, but I do have axel/bearing grease.

I discovered it when I was getting ready to clean and lube the chain. I need my bike

[KELPHYN]

Well if it was me and I had some old o-rings I would just pop the master link apart, grease up the pins, install the the o-rings and put it back together. If you don't have any O-rings just pick up a new masterlink on your to/from work tomorrow. Make sure you put the clip on the right way.

[CZroe]

I know that O-Rings shapes and sizes vary by brand, so I hope I can find the right brand. Thanks!

[Domagoj]

Uhh...

So you had your chain replaced, everything was fine, and now suddenly one of the o-rings is broken and plates are rubbing against each other, and there is no seal to stop the dirt from coming in?

Master link, O-rings and clip were all part of the chain which you bought? There was no mixing of different manufacturers this time?

If this is the case, I do not know how it happened. If I were you I'd try to patch this up if you really need the bike, and look for a new better quality product asap. There is no telling what else might go wrong.

I bought DID and had a master link and some extra o-rings with it. Installation was easy and I see no problems at all with the chain. Didn't even have to adjust tension so far.

[bob706]

Originally Posted by CZroe

They cautioned against the included clip-type

Why?

[bdavison]

Provided that you install the clip correctly, and its oriented the correct direction...the clip links work fine.

I always used the rivet type, after hearing horror stories of the clip coming off...but now that ive been using the clip type link...i can only attribute those stories to completely incorrect installation by the person that installed it. If done correctly, they wont come off.

EDIT: I resind my previous statement...clips SUCK.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Domagoj

Uhh...

So you had your chain replaced, everything was fine, and now suddenly one of the o-rings is broken and plates are rubbing against each other, and there is no seal to stop the dirt from coming in?

Master link, O-rings and clip were all part of the chain which you bought? There was no mixing of different manufacturers this time?

If this is the case, I do not know how it happened. If I were you I'd try to patch this up if you really need the bike, and look for a new better quality product asap. There is no telling what else might go wrong.

I bought DID and had a master link and some extra o-rings with it. Installation was easy and I see no problems at all with the chain. Didn't even have to adjust tension so far.

Yes and yes.

Originally Posted by bob706

Why?

It's common for people to believe that they are more dangerous than the rivet-type but I've also been told that clip failure is rare and not likely to happen on these bikes. Even so, Floyd had one fail IIRC. I may be another because I doubt it's coincidence that the O-ring is on the master link.

Originally Posted by bdavison

Provided that you install the clip correctly, and its oriented the correct direction...the clip links work fine.

I always used the rivet type, after hearing horror stories of the clip coming off...but now that ive been using the clip type link...i can only attribute those stories to completely incorrect installation by the person that installed it. If done correctly, they wont come off.

It was installed by professionals (Stark Cycles) who were boisterous about how badly the dealer screwed up my last chain and sprocket service so I can only imagine that they were a lot more knowledgable and professional. I had read up on everything myself and it looked like they did it right. At least the clip and sprockets were oriented right.

[CZroe]

OK, guys. I'm ready to break apart my old chain and salvage some O-rings from it but I need to know what kind of grease to use. I have "X-tra Heavy Duty Wheel Bearing Grease" but it doesn't say "waterproof" anywhere on it.

I kept my last chain with the mis-matched master link and I just noticed that it could only move a tiny bit until I forced it out and cleaned out the dried out black powder that was once lube. I don't know why it deteriorated like that and I don't want this stuff to do the same thing.

Anyway, it clearly has different O-rings than the rest of the chain (X-ring, most likely) and the guys seem to have thrown away the master link that originally came with it, though I still had it two months ago when I took it in to have this chain installed. They also threw away the extra links that they took off of this new chain. I only asked them to save my old chain, so I guess that's my fault.

I'm going to risk using the O-rings from my old chain if I can cut it with this cheap Harbor Freight rotory tool but, in the future, save your extra links in case your new chain has an early O-ring failure! I don't even know which part is most appropriate for grinding the pins, but the whole set only cost me $6 so I figure I can afford a little trial and error.

[Azhyen]

hope it all worked out for you CZ...

[CZroe]

That $6 Harbor Freight "Drill Master" rotary tool is near useless. I spent hours trying to grind down the pin on both sides of a specific link and I still can't get it out. After grinding it down even to the plate, I tried hammering it through (bent everything I tried to hammer through) and I tried a neighbor's chain break tool (isn't big enough for a 520 chain). Ugh. I bought an EK 520 master link for $5 and it's MUCH smaller in almost all dimensions. The O-rings probably won't be thick enough because even though the plate thickness and area are smaller, so is the pin length.

D2Moto.com says that they are "Volar Motorsports" chains, which looks like just a rebranded no-name Chinese chain with no parts available online (plain white box; "MOD: 520 O-ring-116L BLUE [LINEBREAK]QTY: 1PCS"). All the other colored chains I see clearly show the brand stamped into the links (Driven, EK, KMC), but not this one. Searching only shows other unrelated "Volar Motorsports" products, so they appear to be purely a rebranding-brand and the places selling them, like D2Moto, do not have master links available without the chain.

This one on eBay MIGHT be it, but I can't possibly tell by the image and the description makes it clear that it's generic ("Factory?" LOL!)

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Azhyen

hope it all worked out for you CZ...

Thanks! Still workin' on it.

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by CZroe

That $6 Harbor Freight "Drill Master" rotary tool is near useless. I spent hours trying to grind down the pin on both sides of a specific link and I still can't get it out. After grinding it down even to the plate, I tried hammering it through (bent everything I tried to hammer through) and I tried a neighbor's chain break tool (isn't big enough for a 520 chain). Ugh. I bought an EK 520 master link for $5 and it's MUCH smaller in almost all dimensions. The O-rings probably won't be thick enough because even though the plate thickness and area are smaller, so is the pin length.

Break a chain in less than minute with the right tool.

Noticed a nice one on local forum, maybe offer him 50 bucks

http://www.pensacolariders.com/forum...ad.php?t=11457

[CZroe]

The eBay guy answered saying that the link works for their chain only and no other brands (not what the auction says! ). Anyway, they must not have realized that I provided a description of my chain specifically so that they could tell me if they WERE the same brand, which is something I could tell myself if they used a high resolution picture. They were sure to tell me that they "can't (and won't)" tell me if it works with other brands, which implies that they would not tell me even if they could. I should have replied "Uhh... good CYA there, guys, but I already said that I didn't want to mix manufacturers. My question all along was, are they the same manufacturer?" I was much nicer.

Originally Posted by HKr1

Break a chain in less than minute with the right tool.

Noticed a nice one on local forum, maybe offer him 50 bucks

http://www.pensacolariders.com/forum...ad.php?t=11457

That's still $50 just to get at a couple O-rings. Ouch. That's almost twice what the chain cost me. I'm doing what I'm doing so I can get to work tonight but I'll get another chain or the right master link long-term. Thanks for the suggestion though. Harbor Frieght finally has a pretty close location so I'm going to buy their chain breaker if the EK O-rings don't work out (EK link: $5, HF tool: $17). Hopefully it works better than their POS rotary tool (opinion online seems good).

[CZroe]

OK, I believe that I had a different problem all along-a problem that caused the O-ring to fail.

When I took the link off, I saw that the the inner link involved with the master link pin that was missing the O-ring had a sleeve which was not centered (the hollow piece that one of the master link's pins pass through). In fact, it was underneath the inner plate on one side and protruding more than twice as far as it should on the other! I tried wrapping it with a rag and lightly banging it with a hammer and it wouldn't budge. I didn't want to mis-shape it so I took it back to Stark Motorcycles, who had removed 10 links when originally installing it and were likely responsible. They centered it for free and said that the visible wear on the chain links that were contacting should be fine. The O-rings in the RK master link I bought looked identical so I transfered them to the correct master link and lubed it up heavy duty wheel bearing grease. I'll be checking regularly to see if this holds up, especially after seeing what came out of my old chain's mis-matched master link.

Now, D2Moto.com offered me O-rings and a deal on a new chain when they thought it was possibly a bad master link. I asked for 2 or 3 O-rings when I thought it was an O-ring failure. When I saw that there was no room for an O-ring with the sleeve the way it was (no doubt, the reason it split and worked out), I contacted them back and told them that it was likely caused by the installer. They replied saying that they'll send me 7 O-rings anyway and that I can have 20% off my next chain (psst... I got 40% off the first time with coupon code WS40, which may still be active ). With that many, I'll probably replace them each time I check the link's lubrication.

So, it's all back together. I haven't test-ridden anything yet but I'm about to. I have a grave shift tonight and I need to get some sleep but I also need to make sure it doesn't fail on my way there tonight.

[CZroe]

Pics!

[CZroe]

Past chain/sprocket troubles:
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63170
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=78956

The chain and sprockets are only a few months old. I'm running 15:43 JT sprockets at the moment with a cheap "Volar Motorsports" O-ring chain from D2Moto.com. At first the installer accidentally messed up one of the pins when removing a link and it had to be pressed back in after I found that it had pinched and torn an O-ring on the other side of the master link. That was resolved and, just to be sure, I bought a new master link from ForwardPowersports.com which looks identical ("Factory Spec" brand).

Anyway, after replacing the rear rotor and perfectly aligning the rear tire using the string method in early August, I rode 130 miles to work on a way-too-tight chain, which I corrected as soon as I noticed, which undid all of our meticulous tire alignment! It was caused by the "chain seems to tighten when you tighten the axel even though you set the adjuster nuts" phenomenon. *shrug* It seems that I may have done some kind of damage because I started hearing a pop or grind every now and then shortly after that, usually when starting from a stop or leaning/turning.

I adjusted the chain twice since then and it got notably worse and louder when I did it today (the second time). It was difficult without my rear stand, which I already got rid of, but I had been keeping an eye on things and hadn't seen anything out of the ordinary until today.

Each tooth appears to be developing a bump right where the tooth normally starts tapering to the squarish tip, but only on one side. This little bump/ridge seems to catch on the chain link and make a grinding noise as it is forced down anyway.

Now, I need to cross the country in a few days so I need to make this servicable again quickly. I don't know if the chain is causing this or the sprocket. The sprocket looks even, so I can flip the sprocket over and see if it starts wearing the other side of the tooth, right? If so, new chain. If not, I will have hopefully bought myself time for a new sprocket, at least. Maybe someone at tomorrow's SoCal tech day will have one after swapping their sprockets.

[leed]

The little bump/ridge is likely caused from riding 130 miles with a chain that is much much too tight. And, from the looks of it, is coming from slowing down more than speeding up.

Having been said, it would seem as though a new sprocket should suit you just fine.

But it doesn't quite explain the worsening spread out over a relatively short period of time.. Although.. Did you lube your chain up again? Lubed chains always seem quieter than dry/dirty ones.

[CZroe]

I intended to clean and lube today and I unpacked my lube but couldn't find the tube for spraying/applying.

I should also mention that my grunge brush got caught in the sprocket and broke on Aug 21st. It's plastic so I didn't think it would damage anything, but it is another notable event involving the chain and sprockets.

[CZroe]

Just an update: The problem was that the roller links on the chain pins were cracked and falling off. Some were missing, some had visible cracks, and some had chunks missing (C-shaped chunk around the pin taking bites out of my sprotcket with each go-'round). I crossed the country on Sept 15th, only days after discovering it, but Casey gave me the chain off of his own bike when I was stranded there (all the shops were closed) and I bought the only sprocket in stock earlier that day (before I realized the chain issue). I crossed the country on 15:38!

[CZroe]

I just wanted to add that I had almost complete chain failure later that summer while this chain was still somewhat new. The roller links were cracked, missing and partially missing (C-shaped) and the partially-missing ones were taking bites out of my sprocket teeth. It may be due to this and it may be due to riding 130 miles with it being way too tight sometime in August.

Also, I ordered another and it now comes with a rivet link and has "Volar" stamped on several links. I'm still pretty sure they just paid a generic supplier to brand them because there is no way that they make gloves, chains, brake pads, and everything else under the sun. Even the product that the old link links to has been updated to reflect the new link. Also, it finally comes in a branded box but the box shows a clip-type master link!

[cmSAE]

howd you get your chain to be blue? paint? or did you order one? if you DIY, let me know how, i might wanna give it a try. if you ordered it, where?

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by cmSAE

howd you get your chain to be blue? paint? or did you order one? if you DIY, let me know how, i might wanna give it a try. if you ordered it, where?

Ordered from D2moto.com but, as you can tell, I had issues and can't say that I can recommend it. They may have been caused by my installer screwing up the job when removing links or it may be from driving 130 miles with it way too tight, so I can't say for sure until I try it again, which is why I ordered another one.

[cmSAE]

Originally Posted by CZroe

I can't say for sure until I try it again, which is why I ordered another one

let me know how it is the second time around, if they are good, im probably going to get one for my bike, they look dope

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by cmSAE

let me know how it is the second time around, if they are good, im probably going to get one for my bike, they look dope

Will do. I'm pretty sure this chain is the same but they still offer it with a clip link and you they have 106-link in-stock, so no need to buy longer and break links (no chain tools at all if you can grind your old chain off). It's also a bit cheaper. I'm kicking myself for forgetting that they offered me 20% off my next chain earlier in this thread, but that's only 5% difference (I used a 15% coupon code; no, the 40% code no longer worked). That said, I never told them about the more drastic chain failure that happened later (waited on pictures from @ninja250/Casey; I should ask again).

[cmSAE]

Yea. Def let me know how it works. That red chain would look fresh on my bike, but it's not worth it if I'm gonna have the same problems youre having

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by cmSAE

Yea. Def let me know how it works. That red chain would look fresh on my bike, but it's not worth it if I'm gonna have the same problems youre having

Bad news for me, but perhaps good news for you: The OEM chain I used to cross the country developed the same problem. Yep: More broken roller links. Pics will be coming in the morning.

That means it wasn't likely due to a cheap chain or bad service or over-tightening because none of those things have been done to this chain since it was installed without broken roller links.

[CZroe]

As mentioned [today] in the "What Did You Do to Your Ninjette Today ??" thread, I...

Originally Posted by CZroe

Dug up the chain I broke off last week so that I could place it back on and break the nut on the countershaft sprocket. During this, I found that several roller links were missing their rollers and two had only barely more than half (enough to hang on in a C-shape).

This isn't the first time, either.

Before, I thought it was because it was a cheap $30 chain or because it had been ridden way too tight and a shop had bungled the original install, but this one was an OEM chain with a couple links removed. It came off Casey's bike (@ninja250) but I know it wasn't like that. In fact, we did that specifically because I couldn't go home on the other chain that was already like that. We changed the rear sprocket too (brand new 38T) and the front sprocket still looks fine today, even though I was already changing both sprockets and the chain.

Anyway, I broke off a representational segment of the chain and spent a ton of time trying to clean it. I also found a chunk of one of the missing rollers in the bag I had stored the trash chain in for the last week.
...
I did hand-tighten the new CS sprocket but I did not install the rear or the chain yet. I'm not going to bother until I go to get the replacement tires mounted. Even then, I now have to wonder what is ruining chains on my bike with today's revelation that it may not have been the unfortunate circumstances I knew my older chain had been through that caused it's identical problem.

Now I have pics and videos [of my second chain to fail with cracked and missing roller links!]

Link to original page on YouTube.

[jasle]

does not appear to be an installer problem to me. cheap chain+ too tight. pretty hard to much up installing a clip style masterlink. not very hard to much up a rivet style.

keep your eyes on cyclegear. at thanksgiving they usually run a black friday on a rivet tool for $39.99. Usually $90. I have one and use the crap out of it. Never fails.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by jasle

does not appear to be an installer problem to me. cheap chain+ too tight. pretty hard to much up installing a clip style masterlink. not very hard to much up a rivet style.

keep your eyes on cyclegear. at thanksgiving they usually run a black friday on a rivet tool for $39.99. Usually $90. I have one and use the crap out of it. Never fails.

You didn't catch the latest update, I take it? I have now had an OEM chain fail the exact same way despite having never been "too tight" or "cheap." It's an endless EK SRO Japanese Steel chain right from another Ninjette (dealer price: $190). I bought some calipers so if the HF tool works I may not need a riveter tool, but I'll certainly keep an eye open!

[headshrink]

Didn't you say in another thread you recently realized your 15T CS was reversed for ~3yrs? Might this be a contributer?

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by headshrink

Didn't you say in another thread you recently realized your 15T CS was reversed for ~3yrs? Might this be a contributer?

I quoted someone else who said that the DIY was wrong for 3 years, and it's really been another year since. I have never installed a CS sprocket myself and only finally taken one off that very day. As I found it, mine was installed correctly.

Originally Posted by CZroe

Well, I got mine off when I figured out that you weren't supposed to push down on the nut with the socket using my 12v emergency impact wrench. The manual only said that it takes time to accelerate before it will hammer because it is electric, but you'd just hear it spin forever internally without knocking the nut if you didn't reduce pressure on the nut. I had to use it on the front axle nut too because I found it much too tight, once again, and I couldn't turn it by myself when using my T-handle wrench (whole axle would turn).

@Alex: Can you please edit the OP's DIY, post and PDF, with a word of warning about the correct CS sprocket orientation? It only makes sense for the spacer side to go IN or else the exact size difference between the pregen and newgen wouldn't matter, but this wasn't obvious to the OP or others following this DIY. @Vampyre, for example:

Even then, he only implied that he trusted a three year old thread. He did not imply that he had it backwards for three years.

[headshrink]

My bad... so much to keep current on.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by headshrink

My bad... so much to keep current on.

Tell me about it! :P Earlier in this same thread I said that @gfloyd2002 had a clip link failure but all I can find now is a reference to a tire plug failure, which I may have confused because it's another rare thing that people warn against but is hard to find examples of happening.

Anyway, how did you know that you bent the CS shaft? I know you said you discovered it when doing something with your clutch, but was it possible to see on the output end? I watched mine turn with no sprocket attached and it doesn't seem to travel or wobble. I used the 12v emergency impact wrench specifically to avoid bending it but I have no idea what previous installers used (SD House of Motorcycles and Stark Motorcycles).

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by CZroe

Tell me about it! :P

Anyway, how did you know that you bent the CS shaft? I know you said you discovered it when doing something with your clutch, but was it possible to see on the output end? I watched mine turn with no sprocket attached and it doesn't seem to travel or wobble. I used the 12v emergency impact wrench specifically to avoid bending it but I have no idea what previous installers used (SD House of Motorcycles and Stark Motorcycles).

I'm not 100% sure I did, but I think it is likely. It's difficult to describe, but it was something I thought I felt.... subtle. I couldn't see any wobble. Of course it really could have been anything, maybe even a few tight links. Now the clutch side, that is a whole different story. That was bent pretty badly, and the wobble was bad. It was because I bent it with a breaker bar that I was concerned it may explain the feeling in the CS shaft. I never tore the engine apart further, so I never verified the shaft itself is bent. It would just be the bearings that were damaged and caused the wobble. That engine is sitting on a stand in the corner of my garage. Plan is to someday get it rebuilt when the current engine has issues.... that way I can sneak the original engine back in without the DMV being any the wiser

[CZroe]

Well, the good news is that I will have some backup chains while trying to hunt the source of this problem down! Senior R&D member of Volar Motorsports "Vincent" contacted me about my chain problems and would like me to test out a better chain design that they are working on. I still haven't tested the already-updated one that I have here! Just to be clear: the latest update isn't available yet (May/June). It sounds like they really are more than just a made-up rebranding operation if the chains are truly revised and made to their specifications.

I'm impressed because I never definitively blamed their chain, especially after finding out that the OEM Kawasaki chain did the same thing (Brand: EK - Configuration: SRO - Original implementation: Endless 106 link - Used implementation: Endless 105 link using chain breaker/maker tool).

[headshrink]

That's really cool. Did you originally contact him, or did he happen to hear about your chain issues elsewhere?

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by headshrink

That's really cool. Did you originally contact him, or did he happen to hear about your chain issues elsewhere?

I got a PM out of nowhere. It seems that they have been following it for a few months after proactively looking to see what users were saying. Not only has the version I just bought been updated, but they have a new version in the works that should be even more improved.

After providing contact information in my reply, I got a call from Vincent's assistant today. She seemed very knowledgeable, telling me that they have also increased the roller thickness in their 525 and 530 sized chains, and that if I ever had a problem that required a replacement master link that it was engineered to similar specs as a specific manufacturer's master links. They said that they switched to higher-quality rivet-type links and that they may offer clip links again at the request of off-road guys who frequently remove them clean the chain more intensely and/or service them on the trails. I also learned that, while they are made in China, they are designed in Japan and built to specification with Japanese materials (the famed "Japanese Steel?").

They seem very concerned about the failure even though it was the only one they had heard of and I indicated that very well may not be their chain at fault (bad installation, bad adjustment, or whatever caused the OEM chain to fail the same way).

They gave me a lot of information in case I want to set up a bulk order or forum group buy, which I think may be a good idea if these chains are any good. I live very near the JT Sprockets US distributor and may be able to make a group buy of sprockets to go with them. I don't think we're anywhere near setting up something like that yet, but I will keep it in mind if the chain quality satisfies me.

They also asked if I would give my impressions and feedback regarding their brakes as well. I had to point out that I had already bought a set of their brake pads along with another one of their chains and, therefore, already planned to give my impressions! :P Obviously, I was not avoiding their brand and I did not yet fault them for my bad experience. Unfortunately, they only have organic pads so I might be testing them on the rear brake only. That said, I did once use EBC organic on the front (only thing in stock locally), so perhaps I should try 'em. The thing is, I still have plenty of meat on front and back and only bought them because I figured I could use them in the future and it would make sense to have them in the same order (less order = less shipping).

[headshrink]

A group buy would give oportunity for more data.

How did the HH EBC pads I sold you work out?

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by headshrink

A group buy would give oportunity for more data.

Yeah, but I'd rather be the guinea pig to see if it's any good than have everyone yelling at me for being the Pied Piper that led them to a bad chain.

Originally Posted by headshrink

How did the HH EBC pads I sold you work out?

As good as the last set of EBC pads. I haven't been riding since last year so, as stated earlier, there's plenty of meat left! My rear rotor hasn't developed a concentric circle wave in it like the last one with "Sixity" pads so:Thanks! I'm happy.

[headshrink]

Yeah, I thought you were talking about the organic one.

Glad to hear they are working so well for you.

I still have those rotors, so if your ever interested in really being a guinea pig, let me know