Any dog identifying experts out there?

[pilotgeorge747]

So my golden retriever was attacked today at the dog park in my apartment complex. My dog was just standing there when a lady with what looks like it could be a pit bull/pit mix (which are banned where i live) was about to come into the park. She asked if my dog was friendly and I said yes. She then came in, let her dog off the leash, threw a ball halfway across the park towards my dog. Her dog ran towards the ball but decided to bypass it and lunged at my dog that was standing there. He got him by the neck and the lady tried pulling him off my dog besides everyone telling her not to especially when her dog was hanging on to my dog by his ear. Anyway she claimed she had him tested and he's not a pit bull and he's 10 years old and NEVER did anything aggressive before. I contacted the police to file a report, animal control, and the property. I also got her information and the witnesses who saw the whole thing. She later called saying her dog has a couple of nicks on him (although its hard to belive my dog did it because it was held by the neck/ear the whole time) and wants rabies vaccination proof which I provided and got her copy as well. My dog afterward just layed on his side convulsing like he was in shock. After a bit he seemed fine but took him to the 24 hour vet and ended up paying $200. So now I'm going to have to see if she will offer to cover those expenses.

Anyway anyone know what Breed it seems her dog may be/mix of?

[Mocha Man]

I've been studying dogs for quite a few years now and have seen, trained, and been around a variety of different breeds. The picture isn't too clear and if I saw a side shot I could almost surely tell you what breed it was, along with what mix of breed it may have been.

From this angle, though I can almost guarantee that it's at least part pit bull based on the way the front legs protrude outwards, the dog's broad chest, and the head shape/ears. I know it may sound weird but after you've been around dogs for a while you start noticing every little thing about them. The coloring and marking on his chest also resemble a pit bull. The only thing that would deter me from thinking its a pure bread is perhaps the snout shape or the size of the back half of its body (which I can't see very well).

I hope this helps and you get everything sorted out soon! My dog was attacked by a Syberian Husky which was about half the size I am while I was taking my dog on a walk. I had to jump on the Husky's back and grab him by the neck to make sure I was in control. The lady whose dog it was ran out of her house and wouldn't stop apologizing to me. I'm pretty sure she thought I was going to sue her or something but I assured her that everything was fine and that I wasn't surprised at all about the attack due to the mannerisms of the Husky as it was walking towards us. I'm just glad everything was okay with my dog and hopefully everything will be okay with yours and you can get the money thing sorted out.

(Sorry for the long, maybe unhelpful post by the way).

[rz3r0]

Pitbull, known to be aggressive towards other animals.

[Mocha Man]

Originally Posted by rz3r0

Pitbull, known to be aggressive towards other animals.

Obviously this too plays a part in it but almost all the books I've read on dog breeds say that this is mainly a misconception about breeds; breeds of dogs aren't born viscous but gain attributes based on the way that they're raised. If they're raised like other dogs and socialize with other breeds often then they'll behave civilly (or at least as civil as a dog normally behaves).

However, most people get pit bulls not as family pets but as either guard dogs or a companion for a single person. Because of this, the pit bulls don't socialize with other people very often and many people try to stay away from them due to what they've seen or heard about them, thus causing a desire for the pit bulls to exert their dominance on someone or some other dog.

Hope this made sense!

(Oh, and by no means am I an "expert" with dogs, I've just lived my whole life being around them so I have some knowledge of them from that).

[greg737]

Sorry this happened to you.

I've had several similar experiences during my years of dog ownership. I've always owned just one dog at a time (standard poodle and then a series of border collies, all good dogs but real ****-magnets when it comes to getting beat up by other dogs).

You can't change what happened to you and your dog today, but in the future you can do what I've been doing for several years now: If I see a dog that even remotely resembles a pit bull I immediately remove my dog from the area (go the other direction or get her into the car or put a fence or door between us and the pit type dog). I'm completely over whether or not this offends the owner of the other dog. I'll even call out to them, asking if they can give me a moment while I get my dog clear of the area.

The people who own the pit bull type of dog will always tell you that same old story about how "it would never hurt a fly" or "it was raised to be gentle", etc. It's almost like they're lulling you into believing them just so their dog can get a shot at attacking your dog.

Not too long ago I did just as I've described, I immediately got my dog back into the car when I saw a pit type dog arrive at the highway rest stop we were at. And, sure enough, it attacked a Jack Russell terrier.

[Malicious Logic]

Sucks to hear. Hope your dog is ok. Honestly hate hearing stories like these because like any animal, they can be a gentle pet. While their breed has a more aggressive nature and less likely to back down from challenges, they're definitely not destined to be mean and nasty from the moment their born. Unfortunately, experiences like this one mixed with bad owners and breeding makes for a terrible stereotype..

[greg737]

My dog was attacked by a Syberian Husky which was about half the size I am while I was taking my dog on a walk. I had to jump on the Husky's back and grab him by the neck to make sure I was in control.

I've seen Huskys do this. They were very carefully bred to be what they are: working dogs. The native people who bred them, over many hundreds of dog generations, wanted a strong working dog and because it was meant to be a team dog they needed strong "alpha" tendencies in the lead dogs. But the breeders also didn't want fighting/killing tendencies in their "alpha" dogs, so they carefully selected against that in their breeding.

When a Husky "attacks" all it really wants is to grasp the other dog by the neck for a few moments to assert dominance.

Pit bulls are the complete opposite. They were carefully bred, over hundreds of generations, to fight to the finish. They were bred with care to preserve and intensify their instinct to kill. Just because somebody thinks they "raised it to be gentle" doesn't erase all those years of selective breeding for the killer tendencies.

My border collie will try to herd small children (round them up like sheep) if I don't stop her. You know why she does this? Not because she's ever see a sheep in her entire life or because I've trained her to herd things. She comes by it naturally, from centuries of selective breeding for that tendency.

[Mocha Man]

Originally Posted by greg737

I've seen Huskys do this. They were very carefully bred to be what they are: working dogs. The native people who bred them, over many hundreds of dog generations, wanted a strong working dog and because it was meant to be a team dog they needed strong "alpha" tendencies in the lead dogs. But the breeders also didn't want fighting/killing tendencies in their "alpha" dogs, so they carefully selected against that in their breeding.

When a Husky "attacks" all it really wants is to grasp the other dog by the neck for a few moments to assert dominance.

Pit bulls are the complete opposite. They were carefully bred, over hundreds of generations, to fight to the finish. They were bred with care to preserve and intensify their instinct to kill. Just because somebody thinks they "raised it to be gentle" doesn't erase all those years of selective breeding for the killer tendencies.

My border collie will try to herd small children (round them up like sheep) if I don't stop her. You know why she does this? Not because she's ever see a sheep in her entire life or because I've trained her to herd things. She comes by it naturally, from centuries of selective breeding for that tendency.

Good point with the border collie. I'm not meaning to say that dogs don't have natural tendencies, just that the way they are raised from a pup has a huge influence on their overall behavior.

And yes, I recognize that's all the Husky was trying to do. That was another reason I let the whole incident slide. I've been attacked by a few dogs in my life and they hardly ever frighten me anymore since I know exactly what to do in the given circumstance.

[greg737]

Good point with the border collie. I'm not meaning to say that dogs don't have natural tendencies, just that the way they are raised from a pup has a huge influence on their overall behavior.

Still sounds like you're trying to say that "raising it to be gentle" somehow trumps all those years of selective breeding.

Maybe what you're saying is something like, "If I never give a dog who was carefully bred to have certain tendencies the opportunity to act on those tendencies then they cease to exist". Which apparently works just fine.... until it suddenly doesn't (and then @pilotgeorge747 ends up at the emergency vet with a golden retriever who's suffering from shock and having convulsions).

[Mocha Man]

Originally Posted by greg737

Still sounds like you're trying to say that "raising it to be gentle" somehow trumps all those years of selective breeding.

Maybe what you're saying is something like, "If I never give a dog who was carefully bred to have certain tendencies the opportunity to act on those tendencies then they cease to exist". Which works just fine.... until it doesn't (and then @pilotgeorge747 ends up at the emergency vet with a golden retriever who's suffering from shock and having convulsions).

Nope, I'm agreeing to what you're saying actually haha. Sorry, tis late and I normally don't post in forums when it's late for the sheer fact that I often confuse myself and others with what I post.

What I meant was that you're right in that dogs are selectively bred for specific duties but that there can be circumstances where a certain breed of dog is raised in an environment different to the environment other dogs of his breed are raised in and doesn't exhibit the stereotypical behavior of its breed, such as how some pit bulls really are nice and good around people and other dogs. I agree with the general public, however, that pit bulls shouldn't be trusted all the time, although I generally tend to trust them based on my experiences with them (unless they show me otherwise).

Hope it makes sense now!

[Jiggles]

Idk, I trust my pitbull Dexter, even when he chews on Douglas

[alex.s]

Some people call me Cain the Indentification guy from tristram.

I can verify that is, indeed, a dog.

[Jiggles]

[Mocha Man]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Idk, I trust my pitbull Dexter, even when he chews on Douglas

Hahaha I have no problems with pit bulls personally and I trust them unless they give me reason to think otherwise other than the typical stereotypes but I know a lot of people are afraid of them. I've also read that some dogs (mainly fighting ones) sense fear in people and other animals and that they'll attack when that fear is present if they feel uncomfortable.

Awesome dog, by the way. I've always liked how pit bulls look as long as they don't resemble the steroid-induced Barry Bonds (not being racist, just saying that dogs who look like they can bench more than me probably aren't the cutest pups). Your boxer is cool too

[Jiggles]

Yea, I've never had issues with pitbulls, the ones I've seen have always been very nice. I remember when I went with my exgf to get her a yorkie, the breeder had a huge pitbull who would lie on his back and play with the yorkie pups, it was pretty funny

[greg737]

Thread kinda morphed into an "I love pit bulls, they're great dogs, wouldn't hurt a fly if you raise them gentle" discussion, didn't it?

[Jiggles]

To the OPs story, I like how the lady asks if you dog is friendly. Any dog owner should know if their dog would do something like this. For example, with my boxer, I know that when he plays with other large dogs, he can sometimes get too aggressive and will try to hump them. I know he will never bite (he is really a giant pussy) but I know his actions could incite violence from the other dogs. To let him free off the leash without being careful can be asking for him to get bit. The reason he would act like that is that he was a rescue and when he was young, the house he lived at had other large dogs that would attack him and take his food, so, sometimes he doesn't know how to react with other large dogs. He loves small dogs though

My point is, the lady should have known the reaction was possible from her dog. To be unable to sense that with a pet you love and own is unacceptable.

[Mocha Man]

[pilotgeorge747]

A lot of interesting points you guys brought up. Thanks. Yeah I'm not trying to sue her unless she doesn't agree to pay for the vet bill. Even then all I want is the $200 nothing more. I also don't really care what kind of dog it was that attacked my dog. I just found it very strange after the attack all she kept saying was "He's not a pit bill he's been tested" and whatnot. To me it was strange that you defend the breed of your dog without anyone even mentioning it. I'm thinking she could have gotten a vet to "certify" he wasn't a pit bull or pit bull mix so the complex would allow her to keep the dog. Or possibly she's run into other issues in the past where people claimed he was a pit bull.

The thing that bothers me most is that he obviously had some concerns seeing how she asked me if my dog was friendly. Then let's her dog off the leash and throws a tennis ball across the other side of the park towards my dog (which my dog ha his back turned and didn't even see the ball). Heck I don't even allow my dog to play with balls and other toys at the dog park while other dogs are in there. But obviously her dog lost interest in the ball and decided attacking my dog would be more fun.

Lesson learned:Avoid dog parks at all costs.

[pilotgeorge747]

Also a new development in the case. After speaking with the apartment complex manager it turns out the owner of the dog doesn't have a pet listed on the lease. Therefore she never applied for the dog to be in the community nor paid the pet fee. So now we are dealing with an aggressive, probable restricted breed, unauthorized dog.

[pilotgeorge747]

So turns out the dog is registered with the complex it's just not offically on her lease. However the owner has on the paperwork it is a "lab mix" although the manager agreed with the photo that I have that the dog is more pit/other aggressive looking dog that "lab". I believe they may be threatening her to remove the dog as she seems very pissed. I will make sure I voice my view of having such an aggesive acting dog in the community. You never know when it might strike another dog again or perhaps even a child and obviously the owner has no abilitly to control her dog.

Anyway after talking to her today she refuses to pay my dog's vet bill as her dog "also has a scratch on its head" and took it to the vet last night. She also contacted animal control as well (after I did) once she saw me talking to the police officer outside. She said she contacted her lawyer and said that dogs are property and since her dog has injuries too she isn't responbile for anything. She said she will pay my dog's vet bill only if I pay her's.

So now it's going to turn into a court case and such I will be contacting a lawyer tomorrow for a free consultation. However I was wondering that since in my county a small claims case in the amount of $100-500 costs $80 to file, am I able to add that cost to the amount I sue her for? Also what else could I try to collect? After attempting to resolve this in a friendly manner and collecting just the $200 vet bill I want to get anything I am obligated to since this woman thinks she's 100% innocent.

Here is a pic I just took of my dog just laying on the bed like he has been doing all day...

[Csmith9]

Originally Posted by alex.s

Some people call me Cain the Indentification guy from tristram.

I can verify that is, indeed, a dog.

HAHAHA That is awesome!!!

[sombo]

I would actually say it appears more of a Rottweiler/Lab mix. That chest is very much like a Rotty's with the slightly larger/longer head than what a pit has. The coloration and shape of the face gives it more of the Lab side. I could be wrong though.

[Jiggles]

This lady is a real ****ing piece of ****. Own up to your mistakes and be responsible.

[pilotgeorge747]

So no lawyers are willing to give advice for free as soon as I answer no to "was anyone bitten by the dog?". One attorney was willing to consult for $260 for the first hour. Turns out after reading a lot into these cases that dog parks are "at your own risk" However I'm thinking that since it does not say that on the rules at my dog park just "Owners must control their dogs at all times" and "pet owners are solely responsible for their pets and their actions" and the fact that I have witnesses that it was an unprovoked attack that I may be able to collect damages but am unsure of how strong my case is. A relative told me to just send her a certified letter requesting payment within 10 days or so otherwise take it to small claims court.

Also got a copy of the animal services reports she ended up calling the next day to report that she was at the park and her dog "approached the golden retriever in a friendly manner and then both dogs just started fighting until she was able to pull her dog off and her dog sustained injuries from the fight".

[sombo]

I would say to try and get written statements from those witnesses and copies of any reports you made. Then make the request as you suggested. If she refuses, then take all of the gathered reports (including the one she filed) and witness statements to a small claims court.

[Alex]

Your time is finite. (Actually, everyone's time is finite). There is no big payout at the end of this ordeal. So all you need to do is calculate how many hours it will take you to pursue this, and divide that into the expected dollars you're getting back for the effort, and make an educated decision on how much your time is worth. Only you can answer that, but I don't think it's free.

Because no matter what, at the end of this, the woman will be just as disagreeable and just as useless. Spending any time in the hopes of "educating" her as a side benefit of getting your vet bill paid is pointless.

[CynicalC]

Look man, dogs aren't people. They're animals and have animal instincts. Whether you consider a dog aggressive or not, the fact is that sometimes even "non-aggressive" dogs like golden retrievers snap at other dogs for reasons we will never know. They can be territorial, and protective of people, food, toys or anything else.

Just take this as a lesson learned and move on with your life. You didn't need to take your dog to the vet. In fact your own words were "he seemed fine but we took him to the vet anyway"

If you get in a minor fender bender and your car seems fine afterwards, you don't take it to a mechanic for the hell of it, do you?

Lesson learned.

[CynicalC]

Pit bulls are evil and must be destroyed.

[sombo]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

Look man, dogs aren't people. They're animals and have animal instincts. Whether you consider a dog aggressive or not, the fact is that sometimes even "non-aggressive" dogs like golden retrievers snap at other dogs for reasons we will never know. They can be territorial, and protective of people, food, toys or anything else.

Just take this as a lesson learned and move on with your life. You didn't need to take your dog to the vet. In fact your own words were "he seemed fine but we took him to the vet anyway"

If you get in a minor fender bender and your car seems fine afterwards, you don't take it to a mechanic for the hell of it, do you?

Lesson learned.

You get into an accident but feel fine, so you shouldn't go to the doctor and get checked out right?

Animals are NOT objects the way a vehicle is. To even try and put them in the same light is absurd. Even if YOU think the animal fine they might not be. Are you a trained vet, is the OP? If no then I think they did the right thing.

[pilotgeorge747]

I agree that dogs are animals and they can revert back to their instincts. However the owner (of property) should be responsible for damage to your dog (property). If your child breaks someone's property yes you may not be directly responsible (afterall they are free thinking individuals) but the parent is still financally responsible for their actions. She was also wrong for throwing a ball in the direction of my dog without warning as soon as she let her dog off the leash.

Regarding the vet visit. Yes I didn't see any injuries due to the golden retrievers thick coat. The vet did find puncture wounds though and it is documented it the vet report. Not to mention the possibility of internal injuries to my dog as well as the chance of infection of untreated bite wounds from her dog.

Basically from what I saw (and the witnesses) it was not a fight as her her dog lunged at my dog and had him by the neck and wouldn't release and when his grip slipped from the neck he had him by the ear. My dog was nearly asphyxiated by the other dog and when it finally did release my dog layed on the ground convulsing in shock while her dog was tugging from te owner to finish what it started.

I'm just glad for the owner's sake I didn't have a means to neutralize the threat.

[greg737]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

Pit bulls are evil and must be destroyed.

Yeah, right, Pit Bulls are wonderful animals.

Never mind or simply choose to remain wilfully ignorant of the fact that the creators of the Pit Bull breed weren't aiming for "cute-n-cuddly".

They were aiming for something along the lines of "latches-on-and-kills". To reach that aim they created an enormously powerful, overmuscled jaw that is carried around by a incredibly thick neck, chest and back.

And they certainly didn't ignore the psychological needs of a purpose-bred killing machine. They kept and intensified every fighting and killing instinct that dog-kind has to offer, things that have been carefully bred out of almost every other type of dog on earth, especially breeds that are meant to be kept in your home as a pet and allowed near other people's small children and pets.

[Malicious Logic]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

Pit bulls are evil and must be destroyed.

Heee, cute doggies!

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by greg737

Yeah, right, Pit Bulls are wonderful animals.

Never mind or simply choose to remain wilfully ignorant of the fact that the creators of the Pit Bull breed weren't aiming for "cute-n-cuddly".

They were aiming for something along the lines of "latches-on-and-kills". To reach that aim they created an enormously powerful, overmuscled jaw that is carried around by a incredibly thick neck, chest and back.

And they certainly didn't ignore the psychological needs of a purpose-bred killing machine. They kept and intensified every fighting and killing instinct that dog-kind has to offer, things that have been carefully bred out of almost every other type of dog on earth, especially breeds that are meant to be kept in your home as a pet and allowed near other people's small children and pets.

Oh. You're one of them.

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by sombo

You get into an accident but feel fine, so you shouldn't go to the doctor and get checked out right?

Animals are NOT objects the way a vehicle is. To even try and put them in the same light is absurd. Even if YOU think the animal fine they might not be. Are you a trained vet, is the OP? If no then I think they did the right thing.

Absurd how? All the vet does it look for obvious injuries. They're not exactly doing x-rays and bloodwork. Oh you're right, The dog probably needs to be treated for PTSD.

So lets say as a person, you're at your friends house and you get bitten by their dog. You have a small puncture mark but no other injuries. Your friend has all the paperwork showing that the dog is up to date on its shots. Everyone agrees that accidents happen, and to just move on. Do you go to the doctor? Or do you just flush it out and put a bandaid on and forget about it, and be more careful around the dog in the future?

If the dog needed stitches or had a broken bone, obviously bring him to the vet and then see about them paying the bill. If he's just a little shaken up, he'll get over it.

[sombo]

Colin, I hope for their sake that you don't have animals or children with that line of thinking.

I just love the situation you just described, because the only thing it has even remotely in common with this one is that a dog was involved.

Let's see, was this a friend of theirs? Nope, total stranger. Did they have the papers to show all that? Nope, just their word it was all up to date. Did an expert check the dog out on the spot for any possible internal injuries? Nope, that's what the vet is for.

As I said before, this is NOT an object, you and the op are not experts, and they did the right thing even if you don't agree. Just because YOU can't see anything doesn't mean there isn't damage. I guess you just don't care enough about animals to make sure they are ok. "Oh he'll just walk it off and be fine." Hope he doesn't die from some internal injury your untrained hands and eyes couldn't identify.

[greg737]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

Oh. You're one of them.

If you mean to say I'm somebody who knows how and why pit bulls were bred, then you're right.

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by greg737

If you mean to say I'm somebody who knows how and why pit bulls were bred, then you're right.

Congratulations, you has discovered a wikipedia! I can name two dozen other breeds that have their roots in guarding castles and fighting lions, and they get along just fine today. You've been around long enough to know that they're just being demonized in the media now the same way that German Shepherds and Dobermans were in the 80s and 90s. I don't expect the drooling masses to see this, but you seem like you've been around a while, maybe even read a few books in your time. You should know better.

Originally Posted by sombo

Did an expert check the dog out on the spot for any possible internal injuries? Nope, that's what the vet is for.

As I said before, this is NOT an object, you and the op are not experts, and they did the right thing even if you don't agree. Just because YOU can't see anything doesn't mean there isn't damage. I guess you just don't care enough about animals to make sure they are ok. "Oh he'll just walk it off and be fine." Hope he doesn't die from some internal injury your untrained hands and eyes couldn't identify.

Oh yeah, internal ear injuries. Lots of precious organs in those little flaps of skin. So then you're saying you think the vet checked for internal injuries? I'd love to know how. What is it with this mentality that you need an expert to tell you something that you can just figure out yourself? Do you need an expert to tell you if the leftovers in your fridge have gone bad? No, you rely on instinct. Humans have gotten pretty damn good over the years at being able to tell what's what. What kind of injury could the dog possibly have from this encounter, that you wouldn't be able to see and a vet would? No broken bones? check. No open wounds? check. Pilotgeorge overreacted bringing the dog to a vet. Dogs will be dogs just like kids will be kids. He needs to learn from it and get on with life. I'm not defending the bad dog owner, just pointing out that pursuing this in any way is just a waste of everyone's time.

[greg737]

Congratulations, you has discovered a wikipedia! I can name two dozen other breeds that have their roots in guarding castles and fighting lions, and they get along just fine today. You've been around long enough to know that they're just being demonized in the media now the same way that German Shepherds and Dobermans were in the 80s and 90s. I don't expect the drooling masses to see this, but you seem like you've been around a while, maybe even read a few books in your time. You should know better.

You're still "talking around the issue" as far as pit bulls are concerned.

Yes, German Shepherds, Dobermans and a pretty good number of other breeds were created for things like home security and even individual personal protection, but the pit bull breed has the destinction of having been created as a pure fighting dog (for the satisfaction of man's enjoyment of violence, death and gambling).

The "demonization" phenomena that you speak of with regard to pit bull is actually a completely different issue. What actually happened is that over the last few decades the rapid response of modern-day media in America has provided enough information to help the average citizen learn which breed was actually responsible for the overwhelming majority of truly damaging attacks, the pit bull. Not just random dogbite incidents, we're talking dead toddlers and other dogs and occasionally dead adults (as with that famous case right there in your city of San Fransico).

As this information on where the real danger lies slowly became more and more obvious other breeds that do occasionally bite (German Shepards and Dobermans for example) have falled out of the spotlight.

Where do you think the original pit bull breeders kept their dogs? Did they keep them outside in cages or inside the house with their toddler-aged children? It's only been in recent decades that people have ignorantly chosen to bring the pit bull breed into their homes as pets. In the old days men knew better, they knew a dog that was bread for fighting wasn't meant to be a housepet.

[CynicalC]

And countless times, you see the media mistakenly label any muscular looking dog as a pit bull like the one in the OP for example with absolutely no proof. And if it doesn't look like a pit bull, you can be certain that they won't mention the breed at all because nobody wants to hear about the family Dalmatian ripping a kids face off.