282cc Piston Kit Questions

[fordendk]

Hi Guys,

I want to go for one of the 282cc JE 13.5:1 piston kits. This is for a 2012 with and Arrow exhaust, Yoshi TMR-MJN carbs and a BRT iMax 50 Step CDI.

The guy I have been talking to about it here in Indonesia has told me the following and I have some major doubts about what he has said:

1. he said that the 13.5:1 kit is too much for the Ninja - if so then why do JE sell a kit like this - does it require a change of crank and conrods? - nothing on the JE pistons web site about that. He recommended to use the 12.5:1 piston kit.
2. he said that I will need to add a sub-radiator or get a larger radiator because the 282cc kit will make the engine too hot during normal running (this I can believe) - thoughts anyone?
3. he told me that the headers on my Arrow exhaust will be too small - this I doubt because the piston kit only adds 33cc to the standard 249cc and the Arrow exhausts seem to be just as effective as Yoshi and Two Brothers etc. on standard bikes. This guy also sells exhausts which is why I am suspicious.
4. he told me NOT to get a Nassert Beet cam but just see how the 282cc piston kit goes first and to port-n-polish the head then maybe go for the cam later - my expectation would be that they would know how to combine all elements to get the best combination. My expectation is that the Beet cam is designed to work with the Ninjette and should help a lot with both intake and exhaust... any comments anyone?
5. I asked him about what he plans to do with the valves in the head and he said standard valves and standard seats/port sizes - so my question is why port and polish the intake to take off the rough edges and open up the inside of the head a only with standard size intake and exhaust ports? - I thought it would make more sense to go with 1-2mm over-sized ports and over-sized valves as this is what is recommended on the JE pistons web site. I would think that minimally the cam would make sense to get better gas flow along with titanium valves and more accurate springs - any comments anyone?

I want to verify if the things this guy is saying are realistic or whether I should do what I think and just tell whomever does the work to follow my instructions (which is what I think I will do) since I am not doing the engine work myself.

I would appreciate some feedback from the more experienced members of this forum. Please don't comment unless you have something valuable to add and/or have done this type of work before.

thanks very much in advance

[psych0hans]

/subscribed

[loz944]

[choneofakind]

paging @micoulisninja he knows the details of engine stuff.

[Somchai]

@fordendk - David, maybe you better contact @wayanlam because he did this already:

Look here: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...ig+bore&page=4

From him I'm sure you could get the best infos about going this way.

But one answer from me to point no. 1: Yes I believe, your mechanic is right, in Europe or I think in USA also you can go for 13.5:1 but not in South-East-Asia, here the quality of the benzine is not good enough for this.
The best exhaust for your project maybe would be the Leovince full-system (see in the post from wayan).
The cams, I think is a must for your carbs to get the most power out.

Good success for you.

[fordendk]

Originally Posted by Somchai

@fordendk - David, maybe you better contact @wayanlam because he did this already:

Look here: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...ig+bore&page=4

From him I'm sure you could get the best infos about going this way.

But one answer from me to point no. 1: Yes I believe, your mechanic is right, in Europe or I think in USA also you can go for 13.5:1 but not in South-East-Asia, here the quality of the benzine is not good enough for this.
The best exhaust for your project maybe would be the Leovince full-system (see in the post from wayan).
The cams, I think is a must for your carbs to get the most power out.

Good success for you.

Sawatdee Khrap khun Somchai, kob khun maak na krap. Interesting comments on the fuel quality issues. AFAIK the Ninja is made standard for 88 octane gas (in Indonesia we have Pertamina Premium which is 88 octane (RON) and rubbish fuel). Wayan lives in Bali so there may be issues getting a consistent supply of higher quality 95 octane fuel there (not sure). I am in Jakarta which is a long way away.

I never use the local 88 octane fuel. I always use 95 octane Shell Super Extra. If that is not available and I must get Pertamina gas (outside town) then I get either 92 octane Pertamax or 95 octane Pertamax Plus. Therefore I would imagine that if using the highest quality 95 octane gas here it should be more resistant to detonation with the extra extra compression from the 13.5:1 pistons than the 88 octane rubbish... what do you think?

Interesting with the Leo Vince comment. I was going to get an LVOne EVO II but I waited so damn long for it (out of stock) that I ended up getting the Arrow titanium street thunder full system instead which has 28mm headers, 35mm junction inlets and a 45mm collector with a 400mm silencer.

The LVOne EVO II has almost the same specs except the silencer is shorter and the section of 28mm pipe on the headers is shorter and then flares out to 35mm sooner than the Arrow. I can't imagine this small difference having such a fundamental effect on performance if only going up by 16cc in each cylinder with slightly higher compression and gas flow.

I like the sound of both the LV and the Arrow but actually I like the sound of the Arrow a lot more so would hate to change it out (not to mention that it cost me $800). If anything I think I will try the Arrow exhaust first and if it has a problem with back pressure then maybe sell it and go for the LVOne.

[wayanlam]

hi David,

when i asked JE about getting the bigger 282cc kit, they said that i would need to replace the piston sleeve, because the stock sleeve is not strong enough to support a 4mm bore out. they recommended an aftermarket harder sleeve that's available in Cali, (don't recall what company that was off the top of my head now).

since that sounded a little too complicated, i went for the 12.5:1 - 265cc kit. with the smaller JE piston you can still keep the original sleeve, and just bore it up the 2mm.

at the time the 13.5:1 compression pistons were not out yet.

anyhow, before boring up the bike, i did get the engine ported. that alone already got a nice improvement out of the bike, and that was without any cam or valve changes.

i have a full AreaP exhaust, but not the race model, (mine has the smaller headers/pipes). and i think this is restricting the final result a little. but, i have a nice steady power curve, no sudden drop or jumps through the RPM range.

there was another bike that was getting bored up, changing the cam, and asked to get the intake and exhaust chamber ported more than the mechanic commonly did. i think they were using a Leo V exhaust, but in the end the result was not as good as on my bike, they had some areas in the RPM range where the power dropped...

hmm, my suggestion also runs along with that of your mechanic, it might be better to go with the 12.5:1 compression. my engine vibrates more now than before the bore up at high RPM (don't feel it below 7~8k, same as it used to be, but at higher revs its noticeable), my mechanic said its probably due to the higher compression causing stronger explosions (more power, more vibrations). but maybe there wont be a noticable change between the 12.5 and 13.5... so uh... you would need to find out from someone that has had experience with both. if not, then you can call yourself the guinea pig and test it out and hope for the best, lol

i would highly recommend that you do this job with someone that has done this kind of work many times before, and having a DYNO would be incredibly helpful, since you can actually see if there is an increase, or decrease in performance, rather than just "testing" the power out when you pick up your bike...

Sportisi JKT do a good job i think, i did mine with Sportisi Bali.

i use regular Pertamax by the way, there are almost no places selling pertamax plus, and no SHELL either.

hope that helps, and that it works out for you, he he

peace out~
W

[Racer x]

It is difficult to comment on this. I have not done the 282 cc engine.
I will say I run 110 octane fuel with 13.5 to 1 and for my 265 cc I have a bigger or thicker radiator and a super free flow dual exhaust plus the BRT . But it is all for nitrous. I just put a therty shot of nitrous through my engine . Plugs are perfect and the compression is 180 on both sides. That is 12.5 to 1. No over heating ever.

I am going to dyno my bike soon I hope.

[fordendk]

Originally Posted by wayanlam

hi David,

when i asked JE about getting the bigger 282cc kit, they said that i would need to replace the piston sleeve, because the stock sleeve is not strong enough to support a 4mm bore out. they recommended an aftermarket harder sleeve that's available in Cali, (don't recall what company that was off the top of my head now).

since that sounded a little too complicated, i went for the 12.5:1 - 265cc kit. with the smaller JE piston you can still keep the original sleeve, and just bore it up the 2mm.

at the time the 13.5:1 compression pistons were not out yet.

anyhow, before boring up the bike, i did get the engine ported. that alone already got a nice improvement out of the bike, and that was without any cam or valve changes.

i have a full AreaP exhaust, but not the race model, (mine has the smaller headers/pipes). and i think this is restricting the final result a little. but, i have a nice steady power curve, no sudden drop or jumps through the RPM range.

there was another bike that was getting bored up, changing the cam, and asked to get the intake and exhaust chamber ported more than the mechanic commonly did. i think they were using a Leo V exhaust, but in the end the result was not as good as on my bike, they had some areas in the RPM range where the power dropped...

hmm, my suggestion also runs along with that of your mechanic, it might be better to go with the 12.5:1 compression. my engine vibrates more now than before the bore up at high RPM (don't feel it below 7~8k, same as it used to be, but at higher revs its noticeable), my mechanic said its probably due to the higher compression causing stronger explosions (more power, more vibrations). but maybe there wont be a noticable change between the 12.5 and 13.5... so uh... you would need to find out from someone that has had experience with both. if not, then you can call yourself the guinea pig and test it out and hope for the best, lol

i would highly recommend that you do this job with someone that has done this kind of work many times before, and having a DYNO would be incredibly helpful, since you can actually see if there is an increase, or decrease in performance, rather than just "testing" the power out when you pick up your bike...

Sportisi JKT do a good job i think, i did mine with Sportisi Bali.

i use regular Pertamax by the way, there are almost no places selling pertamax plus, and no SHELL either.

hope that helps, and that it works out for you, he he

peace out~
W

Hi Wayan, thanks for the great feedback. There is somewhat of a black-art involved in the whole balancing act and I think most of the builders/mechanics around the place here in Jakarta don't have any cut and dried formula and they are definitely never qualified.

The guys I was speaking to are at Anjany. They put a lot of bikes in at Sentul and have a lot of trophies in their cabinet but still... I'm not pleased with what the guy said off the grid. What I expected to hear was that they had already done many bikes with the 282cc kit including beet cam and know how to get it all functioning optimally with over-sized valves and harder springs, maybe re-jetting the carbs or something. I don't understand why they would recommend porting and polishing without oversized-sized ports and valves. To me this doesn't make sense at all.

Actually he also did not mention anything about replacing the sleeves and there is nothing about that on the JE Pistons web site either. The bottom line is that I really don't feel like being a guinea pig.

Interesting to hear your story about the drop in performance with port'n polish job. I made some comments to my friend here about this being a risk because it can decrease the velocity of the airflow into the cylinder. I think something to try on that bike is to remove the air filters and use velocity stacks to get the intake velocity back up to snuff (what I have done in the past). The other possibility here is not enough scavenging (negative pressure on the exhaust side that creates more negative pressure on the fuel stroke and increases gas flow). If you do that then best to get the carbs serviced (cleaned, jets cleaned and re-tuned) regularly and run a compression test every few thousand KM due to the generally dirty conditions of our roads. I run velocity stacks in Jakarta with no problems so far.

I have been to Bali many times (usually just riding rented Vario there) and I thought you might have trouble finding Plus, Shell or Total etc. because I don't remember seeing it at the pumps. The vibration in your bike doesn't sound healthy dude so it is probably worth looking at.

On Sportisi I had a bad experience with them once before with a really crappy job on some simple body and electrical work so I won't be back there in a hurry.

I also had a ride on one of their bikes (265cc bore up) with FactoryPro CDI and VRX exhaust... it sucked and my bike (standard bore, Yoshi carbs, Arrow exhaust and BRT iMax 50 step CDI) has far more throttle response plus a better torque curve. Actually I also tried their modified 2013 FI Ninjette with a PowerCommander and their VRX exhaust and that sucked too. Beside that it is so damn far to their shop from my place. I live in Jalan Panjang .

Would really like to hear from some people that have used the Nassert Beet cam and gone with over-sized valves etc. in this combination (i.e. with the 282cc JE pistons).

Also, did you have to change your radiator or put in a sub-radiator?

[wayanlam]

oh ya, overheating past 90C... thats when the warning lights start to blink on the Koso.

when i go up to the mountains and drive hard, this often happens, and when i went on the small go-kart circuit last week the oil temp almost hit 100C...



so basically when im running the bike close to red line a lot for a long time, and not going super fast (looking for the curvy roads, straight ones are boring, lol) the oil temp has a tendency to get rather hot. but the water temp stays stable in the 80s. that only goes up past 90 when im stuck in traffic...

so ive been thinking about maybe getting an oil radiator (like the Satria FU has), but so far ive left it this way. temps aren't going up with everyday driving, only when im pushin her hard.

the engine vibration on my bike isnt crazy, its just something that is a little more noticeable compared to before. a honda tiger for example vibrates way harder than my bike. its just not AS smooth as it used to be, so im not worried about it, iv'e had the bore up since quite a while now, and haven't had any engine issues (who knows, might blow up tomorrow, anything can happen, ha ha).

in any case, i have had the engine taken back apart after a couple months after i did the bore up to check that there was nothing happening inside that wasn't supposed to, but pistons were clean, and all parts were in good shape, so we put the bike back together.

i don't have any experience with sportisi jkt, i suggested them because they have the dyno. if another company has done a lot of engine modding work and has the track/circuit (sentul) experience, then that isnt bad either. but in that case if they dont have a dyno, do a timed test, do 0 to 100kmh, or something to get a before and after comparison. 0-100 is a decent indication i believe, unlike lap times (unless you do a LOT of laps and get the average, or drive like a beast, and get best times each lap, ha ha).

it seems that in general, not many have ventured into trying out the 282cc. the sleeve replacement was suggested to me by the JE-Piston tech/sales dude when i inquired about the options that were available at the time (which were: std 249cc, 265, and the 282cc, - 12.5:1). i wouldn't like to have one of those sleeves burst on me because of thin, and weaker walls, he he...

if your bike goes so well, why take the risk of making such a mod? bottom line is that no matter how good the mechanic is, there is always some risk involved... and in the end you are the one left with an improved, or ruined bike

back to the porting, yes i agree that porting the intake too much has the reverse effect, check out Motoman:

http://www.mototuneusa.com/power_news_--_think_fast.htm

http://www.mototuneusa.com/thanx.htm

a lot of interesting reading material there. eh... enjoy reading all of that if you haven't already

i personally don't have the time to take my engine apart (Or rather, have it taken apart) numerous times to test out the porting techniques that are explained there, so i left that up to my mechanic here, and the bike improved a lot just with the porting that he did. its possible that it could be improved by tightening the intake valve to increase the incoming air velocity, but heck... i was not prepared to have my engine used to experiment on, and i was happy with the result from the porting that was done.

http://youtu.be/WmS9dTW-QT0

http://youtu.be/sY4nMkMe_tw


there is one thing that my mechanic does do that is suggested on the Motoman website, and that is NOT to polish the ports. polishing it seems to get a negative result. he leaves the surface rough/dimpled

and of course jetting the carb is part of the whole process, you made it sound as if it was something optional... with the wrong sized jets, & wrong needle position, all of the work put into porting, bore up, valve adjustment, full exhaust system, open air filter, etc etc... wont get you anywhere without the proper jetting.

[fordendk]

Thanks for the additional info. Quite a lot of babble about porting on that web site. Seems this guy is very anti enlarging ports and advocating smaller intake ports for higher intake velocity. Sounds reasonable to a point... maybe not for all bikes. I don't think there is any magic formula that holds true in every case. Interesting how he gums them up with epoxy resin then shapes the port to 30% smaller. Makes you wonder if there is an even smarter way of doing something similar with a shape that will produce even more velocity around the valve seats. I can't imagine how getting that would be achievable here in Jakarta unless I did it myself. It would be a night mare for me to explain to the guy what I want done and just finding the right resin would probably be tough. I also can't see a head ported like that lasting too long!!! Imagine what happens to your engine when a nice big chunk of epoxy comes off the head and goes down into your cylinder.

Might leave the port'n polish out and see what the piston kit does without it. My thinking is that the lumpier beet cam will help a lot because it will lift more of the intake valves out of the way during fuel stroke (which complimentary to the anti-theory from that web site should also increase intake velocity... because more gas can flow through the same cross-sectional area of the intake port). The lumpier cam should also help clear gas more quickly on the exhaust stroke. Does anyone know what the spec' on those beet cams is?

I can always port the head later. Also according to his theory having standard size ports and a larger cylinder volume will also increase the intake velocity.

In regards your jetting comment... I was expecting the guy from Anjany to tell me the whole process end-to-end and how they go about it but he didn't go into enough details. Agreed and sorry to have misled you... re-jetting obviously MUST be done when you make any changes to the engine (preferably with the help of a wide band O2 sensor and dyno).

[Racer x]

The biggest restriction in the ports is around the valve. Deshrouding the valve does about 90 % of the work. You have to use a flow bench to do it properly.


Going to a bigger bore is a big help with valves. The valves are so close to the cylinder it is the first thing you will hit when you start playing with cams and big valves.

[fordendk]

Thanks for the advice on deshrouding. Interesting... wonder if I can get anyone here to understand it because I don't have the tools to do it myself.

Another point of interest here. I emailed JE about the piston kit and one of their engineers replied that I should use the 12.5:1 2mm over parts to keep the build and run cost down. He said that the 13.5:1 parts require new sleeves and also require race gas to handle the detonation risk.

Guess I will go with the 12.5:1 282cc kit. My current thinking is to do this kit and maybe the beet cam at the same time. The main reason is that I don't want to tear the engine down twice. Might ask about the deshrouding job and see if anyone knows how to do it in order to save some $$$ on the cam. If nobody knows jack about it here then I will just go for the cam.

Somebody also told me that there is a cheaper part (about 1/3rd of the price) than the Beet part made in Thailand so I might take a look at it. I think the Beet part is around $500.

Interesting what Wayan was saying about the vibration. Sounds like there might be a mild balancing problem with the crankshaft due to the different weight of the new pistons. That seems like the logical reason... not gas explosion. Maybe try getting it balanced... probably not expensive but no idea if anyone can do it in Bali so may have to live with it until it slowly destroys the bearings and finally let's go .

[wayanlam]

Originally Posted by fordendk

Interesting what Wayan was saying about the vibration. Sounds like there might be a mild balancing problem with the crankshaft due to the different weight of the new pistons. That seems like the logical reason... not gas explosion. Maybe try getting it balanced... probably not expensive but no idea if anyone can do it in Bali so may have to live with it until it slowly destroys the bearings and finally let's go .

yeah, thats also my theory, the JE pistons don't weigh the same as the OEM ones, so im thinking that its a little off balance now. which should in theory mean that i need to get the crank weight re balanced or something (add or remove weight) so that the weight of the pistons and rods balance out with the crank weights. but like you said, not sure where to get that done over here.

ill have the engine taken apart again quite soon, do another general checkup inside, before something drastic happens, hehe...

[Racer x]

You should be able to weigh the pistons on a scale and compare them to stock. My engine with 265 cc kit is very smooth. For my 250cc engine I am using Carrillo rods. So I had it balanced.

Also remember there is a balance shaft in there.

[Somchai]

Good morning David,

you're very welcome cos it's a pleasure for me to help you if i could do in anyway.

Maybe, before you start with your project you can send a request to the following company. Normally they're doing cars and i really don't know if they give advice in motorcycles but with this company you have 'the pope' of camshafts and valves. Nearly every BMW racing team in older days used their cams and know how and not only them.
Maybe you can ask them about lowering the seat of the inlet valves and get shorter valves what would give you more mixture into the cylinder.

Here it is: http://www.avl-schrick.com/?control_id=43

And if you don't have any luck with them I can ask in german.

Have a nice day and ride safe.

[Somchai]

Hello David,

after I'm back now I'd send a request to Schrick and now let's see if and when what they'll answer.

[fordendk]

Originally Posted by Somchai

Hello David,

after I'm back now I'd send a request to Schrick and now let's see if and when what they'll answer.

thanks Somchai, I will be interested to hear what they say... btw are you Thai or German or a combination?

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by fordendk

Hi Guys,

I want to go for one of the 282cc JE 13.5:1 piston kits. This is for a 2012 with and Arrow exhaust, Yoshi TMR-MJN carbs and a BRT iMax 50 Step CDI.

The guy I have been talking to about it here in Indonesia has told me the following and I have some major doubts about what he has said:

1. he said that the 13.5:1 kit is too much for the Ninja - if so then why do JE sell a kit like this - does it require a change of crank and conrods? - nothing on the JE pistons web site about that. He recommended to use the 12.5:1 piston kit.
   
   
   
   I have done a lot of searching about this and already have bored my engine to 66mm but instead of using JE or wiseco pistons, I went for the Kawasaki ZX-6R 2000-2002 model factory pistons made by ART ( > http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114736) that much compression along with the rest of mods necessary for the kit to work properly (i.e. cmashafts, ignition etc) IS too much for the rather fragile bottom end of the 250's engine...
   JE sells that kit for drag race use and have very short skirts (which is good performance-wise but a major drawback for long life use on street use)in combination with that high compression it is a matter of (very short) time before it starts coming apart, having fumes coming out of the crankcase through its breather for starters and piston clinging following up and of course a great loss of power eventually...it is not necessary to use carillo rods if not going nitrous, besides the crank cases are the drawback...
   anyway, I do believe that the 12,5:1 choice is more reliable for street/track day use and you can use either factory or aftermarket cams without trouble but if you use the oem ones, I strongly recommend a new timing on the intake from 100 degrees to 104-104,5 degrees of lobe center...exhaust will do fine on factory setting...
   I bored and honed the oem sleeves and it works just fine but the rectyfier should be quite experienced to get the job done properly as you will need many detail work at the bottom with cutting off metal and angling the inside for the pistons going in with the rings on properly and for diminishing vibrations
   
   
   
2. he said that I will need to add a sub-radiator or get a larger radiator because the 282cc kit will make the engine too hot during normal running (this I can believe) - thoughts anyone?
   
   
   I know that (the engine going too hot) for a fact... getting a larger radiator is a must for fast street use or track...if that is not an option I recommend you use a combination of "watter-wetter" fluid along with some good valeo non diluted fluid...
   
   
   
3. he told me that the headers on my Arrow exhaust will be too small - this I doubt because the piston kit only adds 33cc to the standard 249cc and the Arrow exhausts seem to be just as effective as Yoshi and Two Brothers etc. on standard bikes. This guy also sells exhausts which is why I am suspicious.
   
   
   
   forget about standard when talking cc...Arrow headers are too small... Yoshi headers are the best choice for going big bore and don't think "it's only 33 cc more".. the difference is HUGE my friend...I was able to use a front sprocket +1 (i.e. -3 in rear) and the bike came to fill up the revs in 6th like before the kit...even better make your own exhaust pipes going on a +1mm basis inside diameter basis compared to a Yoshi header pipe... Yoshi midpipe and final is enough... if compared to Arrow I would say +3mm i.d. for headers...don't forget that the exhaust is the pump for the intake to fill up the chamber...
   
   
4. he told me NOT to get a Nassert Beet cam but just see how the 282cc piston kit goes first and to port-n-polish the head then maybe go for the cam later - my expectation would be that they would know how to combine all elements to get the best combination. My expectation is that the Beet cam is designed to work with the Ninjette and should help a lot with both intake and exhaust... any comments anyone?
   
   
   you should definetely port the intake but I am against polishing on the intake...on the other hand I have seen great results polishing the exhaust but I am against porting it... it is already huge from the factory...
   as far as cam talk is concerned I think my first quote should cover your question...my personal choice was designing myself an intake cam profile based on the single cylinder KLR 250, which gives basically more lift rather than duration (just a few degrees overall) but most important factor that made my choice was valve acceleration and-most importantly- deccelation speed values almost identical to oem's cam profile ones, so that the valves don't start bouncing-keep in mind that valve springs are capable of handling only certain values of weight and inertia and as far as I know there is no aftermarket kit of valve springs for the 250...
   and there exactly lies the answer to your thoughts about using larger valves..
   by the way you can use larger valves only on the intake and only by +1 mm larger...personnaly I rejected that choice because it presented more drawbacks than advantages the way I saw it...that much modification on the head makes it easy to have more potential wear on valves, valve seats, valve guides, springs etc and of course the head itself... remember my words about inertia ???
   anyway, if I have not mentioned it before, exhaust cam is more than enough as set and made by the factory and in combination with large headers will do just fine...
   if you are not a "reprofile" fan then you should check out the Webcam (my second choice) pair of cams specially made for the 250 before you decide
   and yes, camshafts (like porting the intake) are a must if looking for more overall performance
   
   
   
5. I asked him about what he plans to do with the valves in the head and he said standard valves and standard seats/port sizes - so my question is why port and polish the intake to take off the rough edges and open up the inside of the head a only with standard size intake and exhaust ports? - I thought it would make more sense to go with 1-2mm over-sized ports and over-sized valves as this is what is recommended on the JE pistons web site. I would think that minimally the cam would make sense to get better gas flow along with titanium valves and more accurate springs - any comments anyone?
   
   
   
   my previous quotes should cover for most of that (I agree on the standard valve sizes for street use) but I would add that changing so many factory parts with aftermarket ones does NOT necessarily improve reliability (even if better than standard ones as seen on a single engine part basis) because there is always the "cooperation" issue... that is that an engine designed to work with parts of a certain value concerning material, weight, inertia, thickness, hardness, pressure, heat dissipation and -most importantly- expansion (as well as other factors needing pages to analyse) will not necessarily work all together better at least as far as reliability is concerned...
   for example... there are cases where titanium valves will expand more than standard ones when hot inside the valve guide and eventually wear out the guide (allowing for oil to pass into the chamber...if you are lucky...) or even get stalled inside the guide (open of course...) and, well, you know what happens then...or they might even wear out the valve seats if the cam profile is too radical compared to the ones they were designed to withstand (leaving compression to escape before they manage to burn or break the valves)
   
   
   
   
   
   I want to verify if the things this guy is saying are realistic or whether I should do what I think and just tell whomever does the work to follow my instructions (which is what I think I will do) since I am not doing the engine work myself.
   
   I would appreciate some feedback from the more experienced members of this forum. Please don't comment unless you have something valuable to add and/or have done this type of work before.
   
   thanks very much in advance

I hope I have added something valuable and answered your questions and I wish your project results at least as good as mine...

there is though one question I want you to answer me...
what gasket are you going to use ?? (because here in Greece that is the largest issue of all) I ended up using a factory one I bored myself to 66,5mm by hand using a dremel tool...are there any "off the shelf" products by Cometic or any other gasket manufacturers ???

[fordendk]

Hey thanks so much for the detailed comments... you are the man!!

Those comments are EXACTLY the sort of feedback I was looking for in the first place.

I finally managed to get hold of the Beet camshafts yesterday (stock problems in Indonesia). I have been looking at the details for this build for 3 months now. Given where I am here in and the likelihood of marginal success with anything outside the bounds of normality (idiots in workshops etc.), I have decided to go for the forged 12.5:1 JE pistons and use the standard formula they have here in Indonesia at Anjany Racing for porting and polishing the head. My buddy had that done and it really lets the engine breath nicely. Interestingly they have their own exhaust brand they combine with the porting and his bike went really well with that combo (yoshi carbs, Anjany AR-1 exhaust and port-polish from them). I rode it on the test day when he received it. He took off their exhaust and put his R9 exhaust back on it then it seemed to lose a fair bit of feel and some pull so he is going to probably go back to the AR-1 exhaust later. These are locally made in Indonesia and probably not available overseas (don't know). Very cheap at $350... I was surprised.

Regarding the head and pistons etc. I think I will be pushing my luck too far if I ask them to do anything too radical on the head. I am getting more comfortable with the guys at Anjany (esp the boss Mr Angga). Unfortunately for you guys he doesn't speak a word of English. Those guys win a lot of Ninja 250 races and series at Sentul the local racing circuit here which is very competitive.

In regards the heat... my water temp is running at 95 (celcius) and my oil temp is running around the same. I put an oil cooler in yesterday to try and get it down a little. I am hoping that once I put the wetter into it and change the thermostat I can get it running really cool then when I do the pistons, head and cam etc. the heat will dissipate better.

I am also most probably going to try and get some custom +3mm headers knocked together for the Arrow exhaust initially because I really like the sound and don't want to change out the silencer etc. May need to go for a bigger collector too... any thoughts on that?

I am going to do the port+polish and cam first and leave the Arrow exhaust as is until I change out the pistons just to see how it goes. The scavenging from the headers on the Arrow seems really effective right now when combined with the Yoshimura carbs. Right now the bike has a very flat torque-curve and is 30hp max at the rear wheel.

When they do the head and cam work I will also try their AR-1 exhaust to see how it compares to the Arrow. If it is much better then I will see if they are able to make some custom headers (+ collector if needed) and combine it with the silencer from my Arrow exhaust although I am not yet certain if the diameter of the silencer is sufficient (already removed the DB killer of course... no rules on the street here ). I really dig the sound of the Arrow.

2nd choice maybe I will sell the Arrow exhaust and get a Leo Vince EvoII which was my first choice to start with when I researched it in the first place. The sound of those exhausts is also great and the headers are around the same size and the Yoshimura R77 (Japan) exhausts I think. If I am wrong or off base in the thinking above then please give some additional feedback.

[fordendk]

Just in case anyone was wondering... I ended up getting the head ported and polished when installing the camshaft (went with their recommendations on both sides). Tried the Arrow exhaust for a while but I have now changed out the Arrow exhaust to a Yoshi R-77J (titanium blue). The reason is because the engine was not breathing with the Arrow. Now it feels a lot better but I am yet to dyno it (maybe some time over the next few weeks). The bike now pulls nicely from 8K upward of 10K to about 13.6K. This surprised me a little. I think the top end must have also improved (yet to test it). So the engine and parts are now: Yoshi R-77J exhaust, Yoshi TMR-MJN 32mm Carbs, Nassert Beet T1 Camshaft, port and polish. Will go for the 12.5:1 JE pistons next. Should be able to pop 40hp max. The acceleration on the bike now feels acceptable.

[Racer x]

Awesome job. Do you have any photos of the the head work? I first broke 30 hp in 2008. No one has broken 40 hp with a naturally aspirated motor. The turbo guys have 54 hp I just broke 50 with nitrous. Keep pushing.

[fordendk]

Sorry I should have answered this before now. I did not get any photos of the head work. What they did along with the beet cam and the yoshi carbs plus the r77 exhaust is a great combo and I am pushing 36hp with standard pistons. The torque curve is very flat. I have dragged a couple of Ninja ER6N bikes and beaten them up to around 80mph (couldn't go any faster due to road). The bike is quite quick now. One of the guys with the ER6N was shocked that a 250 could rip him off like that.