Better brakes for the Ninja 250

[rojoracing53]

I know most will say the bikes brakes are fine, of good enough and I'd agree for the standard 250 rider. I'd say the brakes work to about 90% of what I'd want but what I'm looking for is that extra 10% with half the lever force.

Here's what I'm thinking
Find at suitable OEM 4 pot caliper I can get for cheap off eBay or maybe a new after market that doesn't brake the bank. Most likely it will have a larger mounting hole offset then our current brakes do so I manufacture a bracket to accommodate this. Since ill be making a bracket anyways I'd like to space the new caliper out a bit farther to accommodate a larger rotor. Optimal would be to find a suitable 600-1000 full braking system and eliminating the extra caliper but I haven't found any matches.

Anyone have any references to this being done before?

I should probably just toss on one of the many spare sport bike front ends on and have dual brakes but that's just to much work.

[alex.s]

its done frequently in indo and thai since they are more limited by taxes and displacement rules. but if you do, you won't be able to clean house in 250ss (stock rotors and calipers required)

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by alex.s

its done frequently in indo and thai since they are more limited by taxes and displacement rules. but if you do, you won't be able to clean house in 250ss (stock rotors and calipers required)

As often as I race I could just swap back plus it would give me another excuse of why I can't race my bike.

[alex.s]

just tell them "those are stock 530 calipers... with stock brembo 4pots........ what?"

[Nemesis]

I have never...and I mean NEVER...felt better OEM brake (pull) than on Zombiphone's bike. I don't know how she bled the brakes but that thing requires little pull. It's amazing!

[alex.s]

she's good at making things bleed.

[cuong-nutz]

Originally Posted by alex.s

she's good at making things bleed.

quoted for emphasis I do not know

[alex.s]

wat?

[rojoracing53]

I have to look around to see what I still have in radial mounted calipers but if I can get my hands on one these making my bracket could be much easier.

1999-2002 R6

[rojoracing53]

Just found these in my garage 2006 R-6 a more complicated bracket will be needed for this, but nothing worth while comes easy right

[Zombiphone]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

I have never...and I mean NEVER...felt better OEM brake (pull) than on Zombiphone's bike. I don't know how she bled the brakes but that thing requires little pull. It's amazing!

Even I get things right every now and again! With the exception of the weight/clutch play/throttle lag/supposed jetting, my bike is otherwise completely legit!

I really don't get what you did so differently though. Maybe those speed bleeder screws really do work better at getting all the air out?

[alex.s]

hey jason there is a guy in the indonesia who made a bracket that fits on the front wheel to give him dual rotors and dual calipers up front, if i remember right he simply duplicated the right side to the left side but theres no reason you couldn't do the same with different pots. can't find the link right now (too lazy) but he posted a writeup about it on this article... there is a great video detailing it on youtube.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Zombiphone

Even I get things right every now and again! With the exception of the weight/clutch play/throttle lag/supposed jetting, my bike is otherwise completely legit!

I really don't get what you did so differently though. Maybe those speed bleeder screws really do work better at getting all the air out?

Srs question: Is that what you have on there? Cum bleed mine!

[Zombiphone]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

Srs question: Is that what you have on there? Cum bleed mine!

No! You're mean to me!

No really though- TRUE STORY. They're just bleeder screws that fool proof the bleeding process by letting air leave the brakelines but making it so it can't go back in while you're bleeding them (Not that I need fool proofing or anything). Nothing you can't replicate by simply being good at brake bleeding though, so that's probably not why mine are seemingly more responsive.

Unless, of course, you know, you're NOT so good at ALL THE THINGS afterall

[Nemesis]

I'm just gonna swap your brakes over to my bike seeing how you're not going fast enough to warrant the use of brakes.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Zombiphone

No! You're mean to me!

No really though- TRUE STORY. They're just bleeder screws that fool proof the bleeding process by letting air leave the brakelines but making it so it can't go back in while you're bleeding them (Not that I need fool proofing or anything). Nothing you can't replicate by simply being good at brake bleeding though, so that's probably not why mine are seemingly more responsive.

Unless, of course, you know, you're NOT so good at ALL THE THINGS afterall

i use a tube. if you put a tube on it and hang the tube up so the fluid doesn't just leak out, the brake fluid comes out of the bleeder valve and then stays there so when you open and close the valve no air is there to get in, only brake fluid

[Zombiphone]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

I'm just gonna swap your brakes over to my bike seeing how you're not going fast enough to warrant the use of brakes.

Maybe THAT'S what's slowing me down. My brakes are just too good. Besides, You've already looped a 250- do you really want to endo one too? We'll move you up to the big kid brakes when you stop stuntin' so much

Originally Posted by alex.s

i use a tube. if you put a tube on it and hang the tube up so the fluid doesn't just leak out, the brake fluid comes out of the bleeder valve and then stays there so when you open and close the valve no air is there to get in, only brake fluid

....... Sure.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Zombiphone

Maybe THAT'S what's slowing me down. My brakes are just too good. Besides, You've already looped a 250- do you really want to endo one too? We'll move you up to the big kid brakes when you stop stuntin' so much

Don't be Telly!

[lgk]

i also do the hose trick, it seems to work well.
costs $1.

[tooblekain]

There are so many tricks to effective bleeding where you dont have to spend an arm and a leg.

I have really bad luck with speed bleaders actually causing more harm than good where I had to go back to the regular bleed nipples and use teflon tape. The threads on the speedbleeders wore out my caliper threads...and I am not the only one that suffered from the same problem

If you do not want to spend money on a mityvac and get the same result, you get a long piece of clear tubing. Insert on end into the bleed nipple and plug the other end with your thumb. Crack open the bleed screw just a hair and pump your brakes. When you want to release the fluid built into the tube, close off the bleed screw and dump the brake fluid into a container. Do this until air bubble out.

Same effect as a speedbleeder.

A really fancy one involves a jar, vacuum cleaner. I have used this method too and works really well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgpY_oGINU8

I will also lightly tap the lines, resevoir, and caliper to try and get more air bubbles out and bleed out.

Also Jonathon, it wouldn't surprise me if you need to rebuild your master cylinder and calipers. Sofia had the same problem and as soon as she replaced the seals for her calipers and Master Cylinder and properly filled up and bled her brakes were so powerful she brakes with only 1 finger

[alex.s]

mityvac pumps can be had for around 25$ at HF, i have two and it is good for the main portion of bleeding but when you are trying to get the last little bit of air, i can never get a good enough seal on the tube when there is vacuum. i have tried using speed bleeders also... i'll stick with my 50cent tube filled with brake fluid.

[Zombiphone]

I've never had a problem. You guys must be doing it wrong More importantly though

Originally Posted by tooblekain

A really fancy one involves a jar, vacuum cleaner. I have used this method too and works really well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgpY_oGINU8

Holy ghetto rigging, batman!

[Zombiphone]

Originally Posted by tooblekain

Also Jonathon, it wouldn't surprise me if you need to rebuild your master cylinder and calipers. Sofia had the same problem and as soon as she replaced the seals for her calipers and Master Cylinder and properly filled up and bled her brakes were so powerful she brakes with only 1 finger

No- don't give him ideas! I like having something on my bike that's actually nicer than his!

[tooblekain]

Originally Posted by alex.s

mityvac pumps can be had for around 25$ at HF, i have two and it is good for the main portion of bleeding but when you are trying to get the last little bit of air, i can never get a good enough seal on the tube when there is vacuum. i have tried using speed bleeders also... i'll stick with my 50cent tube filled with brake fluid.

The Harbor Freight one (I think the brand is U.S. General) is utter crap. Mityvac is a good brand. Mityvacs are good for doing complete fluid changes but can still accomplish removing air bubbles. For just removing air bubbles after a trackday/race weekend I just use the traditional method or the tubing and thumb technique though. If using a Mityvav the last bit of air you'll want to tap the calipers, lines, etc. The bubble could be caught in a corner somewhere. The tapping would either break the bubble down into other smaller bubbles or shake it out enough to bring it up towards the top where a good designed bleed screw will be (since bubbles tend to travel up and not down).

Originally Posted by Zombiphone

I've never had a problem. You guys must be doing it wrong More importantly though



Holy ghetto rigging, batman!

It may be ghetto, but it sure as hell is effective. I had a really stubborn air bubble in my D675. Once I did the vacuum technique it got it out. It worked well because it was constant suction and not suction-pause-suction-pause like you would get with a Mityvac. For every pause moment if gives the air bubble to travel

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by tooblekain

it was constant suction and not suction-pause-suction-pause

Pretty sure this is the method Shawn Pen uses but not for his brakes.

[alex.s]

I think hf actually sells mityvac brand vacuum tools.

Mine are from hf and are mityvac. Also the website shows mityvacs

Also what do you mean suction pause suction? The point of the mityvac is you build up vacuum then it sits there pulling the entire time... No need to keep pumping unless you are leaking massive air in which case... Well... I mean...

[rojoracing53]

So inbetween all the other mods I've hand my hands full with I still trying for this magical better front brakes things I started. So now as far as the rotor is conserned I'm going to drill out the buttons of an OEM 320mm R-1 rotor I have, make my own custom inner aluminum carrier out of 7075Alum and use brembo full floating buttons to piece it back together. Still trying to get my hands on the 99-01 R-6 caliper so I can start making the extention braket.

[rojoracing53]

currently if got the R-6 wheel and rotor on the bike with the stock caliper and as to be expected with 10mm of extra leverage it has a bit more power but it's minor in my opinion. still waiting on the 320 R-1 rotor and the Old school R-6 caliper. But after waiting so long im starting to lean back over to using on Radial mounted calipers with a more complex but cooler looking payoff like this.

[sharky nrk]

^^ could be the best retro-fit job I have seen. Very nicely done bracket and mounting - would be a good one to emulate.

[rojoracing53]

So I finally got the R-1 rotor I've been waiting for so I swapped the 310mm R-6 rotor for the 320mm R-1 rotor. I used a sharpie marker and colored in the rotor surface then rode home. The pads wore off the sharpie up till about 2mm form the outer edge so my bracket came out perfect and the kit is complete. The brakes have more power and the feel is way more solid. I still need to cut away the extra bulk on my caliper adapter bracket but for now it works fine.

I still want to test a brembo 15RCS master cylinder with the new system so I'm looking for one of those right now and I've order the brembo full free floating buttons for the rotor as well. When I drill out the original buttons and pull the two pieces apart I may do a little machining to the rotor carrier to personalize it a bit as well as make it lighter. So far this mod have had good results and I'm satisfied but with a few more tweaks its only going to get better.

[lgk]

Are you currently using an r6 master cylinder?

[rojoracing53]

So at first I was using this because I had it lying around and figured why not. Well it turns out this is the 19mm piston x 20mm offset Mac daddy of Brembo masters that only work with the biggest six piston dual calipers so my single four piston was just to small and the leverage was lost so it was solid but to hard to pull.



Now I have on a Yamaha R-6 or R-1 I'm not really sure but it is off a 2006 bike. It's the OEM master made by brembo with an unknown piston size. I figure it has to be smaller then the other brembo so I can gain back some leverage and get a good solid bit with the pads. So it does work a lot better but I still think it could be even better with a 15mm piston. I can't praise brembo enough for tapping a bleed screw on ever one of their Masters, it makes the job of bleeding brakes so easy.

[tubarney]

"Speed Bleeders" are the best 7 bucks you will ever spend. Period. No more sloppy lever.

[rojoracing53]

Speed bleeders are one of those things meant to be dummy proof, if you know what your doing then you don't really need them. $7 spent on a banjo with a built in bleeder nipple to use on your master cylinder line connection would be better spent.

But if you lack experience bleeding brakes then I highly recommend the speed
Bleeders. I think you can swap out the included bleeder on the special banjo bleeder for a speed bleeder for the best of both worlds.

[rojoracing53]

So I've had the complete braking system on the bike for about a week now but I haven't been riding that much this week so the few times that I did i was taking it easy and bedding in the new rotor and pads. I the way home just now I decided to give the brakes a good squeeze and holly **** the rear wheel came right up This exactly what I was looking for with this mod so I'm immeasurably happy with the results

It's really going to suck when I swap back to the OEM stuff to go race but hell that's only 1% of the time

[tubarney]

Speed Bleeders aren't just for people who dont know what they are doing. They speed the process up by 10 times. Take me less than 1 min to bleed an entire bottle of brake fluid (500ml) through my brakes.. Im betting for you at least 10 min.

Also, after installing my stainless steel lines I must of bleed the brake for a week straight, everyday. Went through 3 bottles of fluid trying to get one last bit of air that was making my lever sloppy as tiny bit sloppy. Not to mention I tried every trick in the book for removing that last bastard bubble. Tying the lever back over night, bleeding from the banjo bolt. Nothing worked. Speed bleeders made my brakes better than they were from the factory brand spanking new. My rear brake lever must a 1cm of pull before it goes to full lock.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by tubarney

Speed Bleeders aren't just for people who dont know what they are doing. They speed the process up by 10 times. Take me less than 1 min to bleed an entire bottle of brake fluid (500ml) through my brakes.. Im betting for you at least 10 min.

Also, after installing my stainless steel lines I must of bleed the brake for a week straight, everyday. Went through 3 bottles of fluid trying to get one last bit of air that was making my lever sloppy as tiny bit sloppy. Not to mention I tried every trick in the book for removing that last bastard bubble. Tying the lever back over night, bleeding from the banjo bolt. Nothing worked. Speed bleeders made my brakes better than they were from the factory brand spanking new. My rear brake lever must a 1cm of pull before it goes to full lock.

Speed bleeders aren't magic they simply make it easier and dummy proof. I've thought of a new very cool way to install new brake lines with almost no added air into the system. I've learned a few cool tricks during this project that I've never heard of before.

[mgentz]

how is the brake line holding up in the front? it looks like it comes out straight but a 90 deg would be more suiting?

[rojoracing53]

Your right about the line but the problem isn't the type of fitting but angle, I had to twist the line 90degs to get it to work. I have a new line coming in on Tuesday then ill post more pics. I thought 90 at first then 45 but when you turn the bars right the bodywork gets in the way so I stayed with a 20deg. The 20 should work fine since ill be able to spin the fitting and remove any twist in the line.

[tubarney]

You can install a new line without adding much air? Sorry to be a skeptic but that sounds like bull. Your gonna have to explain that one. My first question, what about the air in the line.

For me speedbleeders are still the best 15 bucks I have spent on the bike out of over 5000. When you bleed your brakes after every race they are invaluable.