Strange Problem, bike losing power and then stalling.

[empire00]

went on a group ride today and i was riding pretty hard like normal trying to keep up with the 600's and liter-bikes in our group. after about 2hrs of this we stopped and grabbed a bite to eat. during this time it cooled off significantly seemed like it was going to rain, so i headed back towards the house. after about 5 minutes the bike began to bog then sounded like it was running on one cylinder for about 5 seconds then died. would not restart. after about 2 minutes it finally fired back after holding the starter down for 20 seconds or so. went for about 5 more minutes then died again. this time it would only restart with the choke fully open. this continued to happen several more times on the way home. then all of a sudden it quit happening. it seemed like it would always drop to one cylinder before it completely died. i was thinking CDI, or bad gas maybe. what do you think.

[CZroe]

It's happened five times to me in the last several thousand miles. The bike is running way too rich now.

[Buffalony]

ya.read ur plugs. what mods have u done? u keep up with the bigger guys ok?

[empire00]

ive removed the snorkel and have a yoshi full system. 3 shims. havent looked at the plugs. i do pretty good just dont have quite the pull out of the corners they do.

[dubojr1]

My 08 did the exact same thing this morning. Had to return home to get the 09 so I could get to work. Any idea's guys?

Mods are jet kit and snorkel removed.15T too but I don't think that will apply. 2,225 current miles.

[backinthesaddleagain]

My tach/CDI has been mostly trouble free. Here in RI wednesday we hit high 90 degrees. For about 5 miles or so my tach swung wildly from 7-8K, then was fine later.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

My tach/CDI has been mostly trouble free. Here in RI wednesday we hit high 90 degrees. For about 5 miles or so my tach swung wildly from 7-8K, then was fine later.

Sounds like you have the typical CDI issue. I'm wondering if mine intermediately quits. I'm hoping someone has a solution. Hard to fix something that is not happening consistently.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

Sounds like you have the typical CDI issue. I'm wondering if mine intermediately quits. I'm hoping someone has a solution. Hard to fix something that is not happening consistently.

Thats for sure

[captlombardi]

@empire00 & CZroe

what kind of mileage are you guys looking at? i have ~5400 and haven't had a problem like that.

[backinthesaddleagain]

12K. some people have had the problem from early on, as its covered in some other threads here, under CDI, tach, etc.

[dubojr1]

Come on guys, is there no help out there for this one?

[Alex]

If the CDI truly is the problem, the fix is a replacement CDI. No way around it. Of course the replacement CDI might not be any better, with some folks going through a number of them in series.

Hopefully something other than the CDI can be pointed to, I'd think one of the things to hope for was some bad gas on the last fillup. But that's probably unlikely.

[austexjg]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

Sounds like you have the typical CDI issue. I'm wondering if mine intermediately quits. I'm hoping someone has a solution. Hard to fix something that is not happening consistently.

Good luck with trying to resolve this at the dealership while the bike is under warranty. A local dealer, just today, told me that my off-set gas cap (early post) is normal and that the RPMs fluctuation with the CDI issue is also normal. He (the owner) said that the warm weather and engine temps could account for the 1,000+ difference in RPM reading at 60 mph. That statement alone made we realize that I was going to get no where with this guy. Then he gave, "Drop it off if you want, but that is normal."

So I guess this wouldn't be resolved before June 3, the one warranty expires then. I don't think I'm going to purchase the GTPP if one of the dealerships here in Austin are this poor about customer service after the sale, I doubt the others are any better. Here's to hoping all goes well after June 3.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by Alex

If the CDI truly is the problem, the fix is a replacement CDI. No way around it. Of course the replacement CDI might not be any better, with some folks going through a number of them in series.

Hopefully something other than the CDI can be pointed to, I'd think one of the things to hope for was some bad gas on the last fillup. But that's probably unlikely.

Filled yesterday...problem this morning. Not sure it fits though cause it would restart. Petcock maybe?

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by austexjg

Good luck with trying to resolve this at the dealership while the bike is under warranty. A local dealer, just today, told me that my off-set gas cap (early post) is normal and that the RPMs fluctuation with the CDI issue is also normal. He (the owner) said that the warm weather and engine temps could account for the 1,000+ difference in RPM reading at 60 mph. That statement alone made we realize that I was going to get no where with this guy. Then he gave, "Drop it off if you want, but that is normal."

So I guess this wouldn't be resolved before June 3, the one warranty expires then. I don't think I'm going to purchase the GTPP if one of the dealerships here in Austin are this poor about customer service after the sale, I doubt the others are any better. Here's to hoping all goes well after June 3.

I have no warranty left on this one. I guess I'll have to figure it out with you guys help.

[austexjg]

I think I'm just going to upgrade at a later date - I'll use the GTPP warranty money that.

[StealthESW]

Well, I guess I should add that I too am having the issue with the CDI. I was the second person in one day to log the complaint at our local House of Kawasaki. The service tech told me they had never heard of the issue before then.

Needless to say my bike will be checked out in the morning. Could be 3 weeks to get fixed if they can reproduce it. Also to note, the service tech called Kawasaki and was told that they have had no complaints of any such issue.

I have looked further into this issue and have seen posts on other forums that lead me to believe that the EX250R is not the only Kawasaki model that has this issue. Starting to smell a bit like a Toyota?

Anyway, The Kawasaki tech told the dealer tech it could be the clutch slipping that is causing my bike to go from 45MPH at 5000RPM to 45MPH at 6000RPM. The dealer tech said he is not buying clutch slippage on a bike with 250 miles. So, now I have to wait till they get time to test drive it.

I bought the bike on May 1, 2010. It sat in storage for 2 weeks due to bad weather here in Oklahoma City and now I will be without it for 3 weeks till they get a chance to even throw another potentially faulty CDI at it. What a gas. Wish Kawasaki would have shipped the EFI units to the US. This whole nasty business could have been avoided.

[headshrink]

WOW. I can't believe they are saying this.... I mean it is nothing new that dealer/mechs are clueless (to be fair they probably ride other bikes and don't spend all their time focusing only on the ex250), but Kawi is flat out lying. Period. Where did you get 3 weeks? It doesn't take more than 10 minutes to change out a CDI..... maybe 20 min. if you are a virgin.

This kind of manufacturer crap is inexcusable.... it is the type of behavior that will lose an entire generation of buyers. Case in point, American cars. I won't buy one.... not ever. Period. And when did they earn there reputation? Of course the recent crap doesn't exactly help their case. The Toyo stuff was a bit unexpected, but I did go from "my next car" to "I think I will wait a decade to see how this thing plays out."

[StealthESW]

The dealer is just really busy. They are back logged about 3 weeks. Don't really have a choice in dealers here. Plus they are really nice at this place, so far. We'll see how it goes if they can't fix the issue for good.

By the way, they rode the bike this morning and was able to confirm the issue as described. I was told they will talk to Kawasaki on Tuesday and see what they say to do with it. So the rain of parts is about to begin. (Hopefully not. I would like to try to sell it ASAP. I just have no confidence in the product after all the info I have found in this and several other forums about this issue.) He also confirmed the clutch is not slipping.

Here we have a lemon law that protects buyers of vehicles from reoccurring issues. I think this issue would fall under the lemon law. We will see if they can fix the issue.

Below is a link to the Oklahoma explaination of the Lemon Law. Could be the only way to get Kawasaki to start looking for a true solution to the problem. There could be something like it in your state. I think it would be a good idea for anyone that is continueing to have the issue to look into.
http://www.ok.gov/omvc/pdf/LL%20Guide.pdf

[Alex]

Eric - what symptoms does your bike have; anything other than the misreading tach?

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by captlombardi

@empire00 & CZroe

what kind of mileage are you guys looking at? i have ~5400 and haven't had a problem like that.

Over 8,600 the first time. Over 12K the ~4-5th time. It happens so infrequently that a service tech would likely never see it during testing. Bike is obviously running rich for unknown reasons so, like you, I'm not sure that it's CDI-related. I DO have the CDI tach issue, so until I hear about people having this problem with a known-good CDI, I can't rule out its involvement.

[StealthESW]

Other than my urge to shift it to the non-exiting seventh gear after being on the bike for a while. Non really. I have noticed that it looks like the RPM problem gets worse the longer I ride and when I am having the issue my bike will idle at 2000 RPM. I don't think the bike would make it to 90 and I'm not a big guy. The bike appears to be well assembled.

But keep in mind the change in my tach hot reading is 500 to 1000 RPM above the cool reading. The service tech saw only a 500 RPM difference over about 20 miles early this morning around 9:00 or 10:00AM, when it was cooler. I think if they test rode it now they would get the 1000 RPM above normal reading I got riding it over to them yesterday at 90+ degrees.

I also noticed that it would fluctuate slightly. At first I thought it was a second timing map in the computer that would allow the system to adapt to diffrenet riding styles. Then I had a second thought, if it was that, the bike would have been more than 4299 + setup and doc fees.

I honestly can't say that the RPM of the engine is actually matching the reading from the tach once it is hot, because my focus is elsewhere. But I do know that my instinct after being on the bike for a few miles in the heat is to keep trying to upshift while already in 6th. I am no stranger to riding, as I have been riding dirt bikes for several years.

[Alex]

A number of folks with this issue notice nothing other than a flaky tach, and the fix in fact has been only after replacing multiple CDI's as well as the tach. But if the mileage is fine, the performance is fine, (the 2000 rpm idle likely has nothing to do with it), I'm not sure I'd be as worried about it. Hope they are able to work it out to your satisfaction.

[empire00]

Originally Posted by captlombardi

@empire00 & CZroe

what kind of mileage are you guys looking at? i have ~5400 and haven't had a problem like that.

this was only maybe the second time this has happened to me and the first time it wasnt this bad. @~10k miles

[Buffalony]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

Sounds like you have the typical CDI issue. I'm wondering if mine intermediately quits. I'm hoping someone has a solution. Hard to fix something that is not happening consistently.

Originally Posted by dubojr1

Come on guys, is there no help out there for this one?

This doesnt sound like the typical cdi issue. it sounds like a miss fire.

Anyhoo random miss fire diagnosis on carbed bikes is a tad trickier than on fi ones .

To empire...I'd just like to clarify the following..
You cant start the bike without opening the choke.
After you start the bike you let it run till it will idle without the choke open any longer.
Then you ride away and the bike starts to miss fire then sometime dies.

Is this correct?


I would pull the plugs, make sure theyre gapped right, and visually inspect them (read them) http://www.dansmc.com/spark_plugs/sp...s_catalog.html

If all is dandy there I'd next pull the air-filter and inspect.

Do these things first and post back results.

BTW..DONT burn out ur starter. Turn it, turn it, turn it, let it cool.

[dubojr1]

Well oddly enough once I got home Friday afternnon, I tried to reproduce my problem from Friday morning. The bike ran like a champ with no issues. empire00 describes the symptoms perfectly in the first post. It was as if the CDI maybe quit briefly but came back to life. I can't believe it runs fine now.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by Buffalony

This doesnt sound like the typical cdi issue. it sounds like a miss fire.

Anyhoo random miss fire diagnosis on carbed bikes is a tad trickier than on fi ones .

To empire...I'd just like to clarify the following..
You cant start the bike without opening the choke.
After you start the bike you let it run till it will idle without the choke open any longer.
Then you ride away and the bike starts to miss fire then sometime dies.

Is this correct?


I would pull the plugs, make sure theyre gapped right, and visually inspect them (read them) http://www.dansmc.com/spark_plugs/sp...s_catalog.html

If all is dandy there I'd next pull the air-filter and inspect.

Do these things first and post back results.

BTW..DONT burn out ur starter. Turn it, turn it, turn it, let it cool.

My symptoms were as followed:

1. Started bike with choke for commute to work
2. Left home with bike running perfect
3. About 5 mins. into the ride made left turn and in the middle of the turn the bike stumbled and then died
4. attempted to restart with and witout choke for approx. 30 secs.
5. Bike eventually started on choke but sounded as if running on 1 cylinder
6. Moved out of traffic flow while the bike was running poorly
7. Bike died again
8. Attempted restart again with and without choke for approx. 60 secs.
9. Bike finally restarted on choke and ran as if nothing had happened
10. Continued commute to work
11. Merged to interstate 95 to continue commute
12. Approx. 4-5 mins., bike stumbled again and begin to loose power
13. I went to WOT but could only maintain 4K RPM with no acceleration
14. Moved to the towards "break-down" lane and cruised at 4K about 1/4 mile to nearest exit
15. Grabbed the clutch for for the exit stop sign and the bike died again
16. Attempted restart with and without choke
17. Bike restarted with no choke after approx. 30 secs
18. rode the bike back home on side streets, approx. 7 miles with no issues
19. Returned home that afternoon to try and duplicate the problem but was not successful.

[headshrink]

Float needle stuck? I'm new at carbs, so it may be a shot in the dark...

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by StealthESW

Other than my urge to shift it to the non-exiting seventh gear after being on the bike for a while. Non really. I have noticed that it looks like the RPM problem gets worse the longer I ride and when I am having the issue my bike will idle at 2000 RPM. I don't think the bike would make it to 90 and I'm not a big guy. The bike appears to be well assembled.

But keep in mind the change in my tach hot reading is 500 to 1000 RPM above the cool reading. The service tech saw only a 500 RPM difference over about 20 miles early this morning around 9:00 or 10:00AM, when it was cooler. I think if they test rode it now they would get the 1000 RPM above normal reading I got riding it over to them yesterday at 90+ degrees.

I also noticed that it would fluctuate slightly. At first I thought it was a second timing map in the computer that would allow the system to adapt to diffrenet riding styles. Then I had a second thought, if it was that, the bike would have been more than 4299 + setup and doc fees.

I honestly can't say that the RPM of the engine is actually matching the reading from the tach once it is hot, because my focus is elsewhere. But I do know that my instinct after being on the bike for a few miles in the heat is to keep trying to upshift while already in 6th. I am no stranger to riding, as I have been riding dirt bikes for several years.

I find myself looking for 7th quite often.

[bdavison]

Here's what Id check.

1. Plug fouled or messed up - Pull and check or replace
2. Bad Gas - Drain tank and get some good gas
3. Dirty carbs - Run some seafoam, or pull and clean
4. Battery - Test battery
5. Valves out of adjustment - Did you do the recommended valve job?

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by bdavison

Here's what Id check.

1. Plug fouled or messed up - Pull and check or replace
2. Bad Gas - Drain tank and get some good gas
3. Dirty carbs - Run some seafoam, or pull and clean
4. Battery - Test battery
5. Valves out of adjustment - Did you do the recommended valve job?

Would any of these explain why it started, stopped, started, stopped, and then disappeared? Bike has 2,300 miles.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by bdavison

Here's what Id check.

1. Plug fouled or messed up - Pull and check or replace
2. Bad Gas - Drain tank and get some good gas
3. Dirty carbs - Run some seafoam, or pull and clean
4. Battery - Test battery
5. Valves out of adjustment - Did you do the recommended valve job?

In my case it was not bad gas. I ran two bottles of Seafoam and got no improvement in my rich-running and it did do it once since then. My plugs arfe probably fould due to it running rich, which may or may not be related. My battery is fine. It did it the first time shortly after a professional valve job where they said it was all "within tolerances" and didn't change anything. They went out of business the next day so I suspect that they may have done a bum valve job. Thanks for the list. I marked off 2, 3 & 4 leaving 1 and 5 as options to have checked (I'm not mechanic). Could it also be carb synchronization?

[headshrink]

CZroe - I bet they never touched your valves.

[g21-30]

Sean (OP) and Jason (secondary),

1. Did either of you recently change where you buy your gas?
2. If so, did the problem start soon after refilling the tank?

With everyone else posting, I'm unsure whether or not both of you are the original owners of your respective bikes. I think you are. Yes or no?

3. Has either bike had an extended period of time when it was unused for more than 4 weeks?
4. Have you ever run out of gas with the bike?
5. If so, did the problem start soon after running out of gas?

If you answered yes to either 1, 3 or 4, your problem is possibly gas related.

As far as the CDI goes, there is an option that DOES WORK 100% of the time, other than dealer replacement and that is to retrofit with a CDI from an '88-94 Ninja 250.

Getting back to the possible gas problem, drain the carb bowls of gas and check for bad gas. You will know as soon as you look at it! If the gas is good, then we can proceed to checking for the other two requirements: air and spark!

Let me know your answers...ASAP.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by headshrink

CZroe - I bet they never touched your valves.

My thought exactly and exactly why I'm leaving option 5 open.

Originally Posted by g21-30

Sean (OP) and Jason (secondary),

Me too.

Originally Posted by g21-30

1. Did either of you recently change where you buy your gas?
2. If so, did the problem start soon after refilling the tank?

In one case (~third time) I tried to see if Seafoam + "premium with cleaners" gasolene would solve my rich-running/poor fuel economy issue. I switched to Chevron premium 1 tank before attempting to add Seafom but it happened before I got through the tank (no Seafoam yet)... in the rain. The previous times it happened I would give up trying to restart it after it gives up with the choke on and check the fluids by which time it would fire back up again. This time I didn't dare check fluids in the rain, so I had to push it a mile in the rain I tried to start it again every now and then until my battery was clearly dieing but it never started until I reached the gas station and added gas. I have a feeling that it was opening the gas tank that did it and not adding gas because I still had 1.3 gallons of the same gas I had been burning up to that point (I made sure I was running on fumes at the last fill-up). Also, I had attempted to warm up my bike before the rain (fully) but my relief at work was late so it had been cooling for about 30 minutes when the rain started and I hopped on to go home ASAP. I made it about two/three blocks when the engine died at a stop light and wouldn't start without choke, soon after dieing even on choke and refusing to start. I think the warm engine + rapidly cooled tank may have created a vacuum that exacerbated the condition. Every other time was a similar distance from where I started with a cold or semi-warm engine run hard shortly after starting it (drive 50 miles, check out a thirft store for 15mins, exit and leave ASAP, dies after the next couple stop lights and refuses to start for several mins).


You know what? Every single time it has happened I have opened the tank before it would start again. I still hear the tank whistle (49-state bike here), so I know it's venting.

Originally Posted by g21-30

With everyone else posting, I'm unsure whether or not both of you are the original owners of your respective bikes. I think you are. Yes or no?

I am.

Originally Posted by g21-30

3. Has either bike had an extended period of time when it was unused for more than 4 weeks?
4. Have you ever run out of gas with the bike?

Yes. Twice. Many thousands of miles earlier and long before the issues started.

Originally Posted by g21-30

5. If so, did the problem start soon after running out of gas?

No, but I'm still pretty sure I had bad gas that time because I only got 117 miles (usually ~197-205 back then) and the gqauge still registered a quarter of a tank. I blame a bad Ethanol mix.

Originally Posted by g21-30

If you answered yes to either 1, 3 or 4, your problem is possibly gas related.

Been completely through many tanks of gas, two bottles of Seafoam, a dealer service where I specifically asked them to find and fix the problem ("no running issues found" they say) and I'm still running rich, terrible fuel economy, and breaks down like this about once every six weeks (~2K miles).

Originally Posted by g21-30

As far as the CDI goes, there is an option that DOES WORK 100% of the time, other than dealer replacement and that is to retrofit with a CDI from an '88-94 Ninja 250.

Just because it works I am not convinced that it works exactly as it should. I mean, especially with the unidentified wires and all.

Originally Posted by g21-30

Getting back to the possible gas problem, drain the carb bowls of gas and check for bad gas. You will know as soon as you look at it! If the gas is good, then we can proceed to checking for the other two requirements: air and spark!

Let me know your answers...ASAP.

I've never had the fairings off myself but I saw Duck's vid for yanking the carbs clean and easy. Should I do this/risk it with no mechanical experience? I don't even have a proper set of tools since moving cross-country.

Edit: You know what? I bet that the time I ran out of gas in Alabama at under 4K miles was the same thing! I probably THOUGHT I was out of gas because adding gas "fixed" it, but, then again, so did it the time I knew that I had over a gallon left. The only reason I didn't "know" then was because it was a good samaritan's likely-old gas can (unknown quantity to calculate). It seemingly got me started to make it to the next gas station, but I bet that just opening the fuel door or waiting is what did it. I'll be damned. It was probably old gas too! That would explain why may gauge wasn't nearly on "E" and yet I have had it below that point many times both before and after.

I definitely did run out of gas once when the bike was still new though (about 1K miles, IIRC). I've nearly run out many times (stumbling into the gas station; pumped about 5 gallons).

[alex.s]

Just curious... on the pre-gen CDI, what wires are unidentified? the grey neutral-kill wire?

[g21-30]

JET - Sorry I left you out of the mix! The retrofitted CDI works for both kkim and myself. Racer-X used it before switching to the BTR-TIS setup. I wouldn't worry about the 1 unused wire. Mine has been error free for many months, plus the 20 years of previous use!

As far as working on the carbs, you DON'T have to remove them for any of this work. VeX has a great DIY, which I used to remove the idle mixture screw covers/caps. See: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10640

Use the MOS and a self-tapping screw to remove the caps. Order a set of the JIS screw bits and use the MOS to take off the diaphragm housing (to get to the needles) and the same for the fuel bowls (to remove the jets if needed).

Back to the CDI. One thing I was going to try, but settled on a retrofit, was come up with a way to cool the OEM CDI, via ice pack or something along those lines. What you might try is to go for a ride around your neighborhood (stay close to home) on a hot day. If the bike has the same problem, push it home and remove the CDI (side panels and seat first). Put the CDI in your freezer for an hour or so. After it's really cold, put it back on the bike and replace the seat (leave off side panels) and go for a ride (stay close to home). If you still have a problem starting the bike, prior to going for your test ride, I would be willing to bet you have a gas problem.

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by alex.s

Just curious... on the pre-gen CDI, what wires are unidentified? the grey neutral-kill wire?

All wires on the pre-gen are identified. The Grey wire on the post-gen is what is left over and is still not identified as to what it controls. In the OEM schematic it goes from the ignition switch to the CDI!

If you do the mod or buy the BRT-TIS, you should jumper the side-stand switch.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by g21-30

Sean (OP) and Jason (secondary),

1. Did either of you recently change where you buy your gas? NO
2. If so, did the problem start soon after refilling the tank?

With everyone else posting, I'm unsure whether or not both of you are the original owners of your respective bikes. I think you are. Yes or no?

3. Has either bike had an extended period of time when it was unused for more than 4 weeks? NO
4. Have you ever run out of gas with the bike? NO
5. If so, did the problem start soon after running out of gas?

If you answered yes to either 1, 3 or 4, your problem is possibly gas related.

As far as the CDI goes, there is an option that DOES WORK 100% of the time, other than dealer replacement and that is to retrofit with a CDI from an '88-94 Ninja 250.

Getting back to the possible gas problem, drain the carb bowls of gas and check for bad gas. You will know as soon as you look at it! If the gas is good, then we can proceed to checking for the other two requirements: air and spark!

Let me know your answers...ASAP.

Also, if it were bad gas, wouldn't it duplicate until the fuel was gone. I tried to duplicate with no luck and i changed nothing. I am the original owner and the bike hasnever set up for weeks.

[g21-30]

I just had another thought. adouglas recently experienced a bad vacuum control fuel valve, meaning fuel flowed from the tank without requiring a vacuum source to open the valve. It may be possible that you're experiencing the opposite, i.e. the valve is NOT allowing fuel to flow or there is something in the valve moving around, which clogs and then unclogs

You could try manually turning the valve to its PRI setting, which allows fuel to always flow. The downside to this is if the float is the problem, then fuel will possibly overflow. If fuel doesn't overflow, crank the bike up and go for a ride. If you don't have a problem, then you may have found the problem.