Blipping while braking

[JeffM]

Video of Eddie Lawson on the 500 GP Cagiva in 1991 that illustrates how to brake and blip the throttle while downshifting.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[CC Cowboy]

Steady Eddie, he makes it looks so easy.

[spooph]

That is awesome! One day I will ride a 500cc 2-stroke race bike!

[DaBlue1]

He's even doing this without shorty levers.

[ungluck]

rev matching. do it in the car and on the bike...

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by spooph

That is awesome! One day I will ride a 500cc 2-stroke race bike!

They are very hard to ride, very expensive to own, and very rare to find.

You might want to start on a 250 (TZ). Still hard to ride, expensive to own, and rare to find.

Here is an 86' Honda for $62,000 (in Europe).

http://www.classic-motorbikes.com/Ho..._500_FC52.html

This is the one I would want to ride (and own). It's a 750, I always like the "bigger is best" way.

http://www.classic-motorbikes.com/Ya..._750_FC90.html

[spooph]

Yea,TZ750 = drool

[Misti]

Wow, pretty cool! I love how effortless it looks and how incredibly smooth it is. Have any of you practiced braking and downshifting and blipping the throttle while braking?

What are some steps you could do in your own riding to help you become as smooth as he is ?

Misti

[JeffM]

Misti, every time I ride.

My first step was getting away from a death grip on the bars. I now try to hold the grips like I am holding a bird, nice and delicate.

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Steady Eddie.

Thought it was Fast Eddie

[gfloyd2002]

Originally Posted by JeffM

I now try to hold the grips like I am holding a bird, nice and delicate.

Just like Dr. J.

[spooph]

I do!

Link to original page on YouTube.

[wvninja]

^^^ i forgot how aggressive you have to be with the gas on the 250. that type of gassing = wheelies (or spinouts in the wet) on my 600 lol

I got yelled at in the MSF all day long for two finger braking ... i told him srry.. i blip brake and he just looked at me funny. I don't even notice I'm doing it anymore, its just habit.

[Kurosaki]

CBR owners, unite!

[coondog]

Originally Posted by Misti

Wow, pretty cool! I love how effortless it looks and how incredibly smooth it is. Have any of you practiced braking and downshifting and blipping the throttle while braking?

What are some steps you could do in your own riding to help you become as smooth as he is ?

Misti

not on this bike, basically totally unneccesary unless you're all out at the track with other 250's or are going for lap record.

[Indy250r]

Originally Posted by spooph

I do!

Nice vid!

How do those bar ends work for you?

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Kurosaki

CBR owners, unite!

No sexual in-ur-endos!

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by coondog

not on this bike, basically totally unneccesary unless you're all out at the track with other 250's or are going for lap record.

Why would it be unnecessary?

[spooph]

Coondog, I don't find it unnecessary at all... It's a great feeling to always be in the power band and have super smooth shifts... Even if I don't brake at the same time. A handy skill to have well practiced in an emergency....

Indy, I love the bar-ends. I can see with them easily, but they're so small I can't really see details in them. They allow me to see red and blue flashy lights behind me (those are important to see), and otherwise just blobs to make sure those blobs don't run into me at a stop light, etc.... I don't need to make out the front license plate of a car, or even what kind of car it is, if I have time to look in the rear view mirror... If you catch my drift...

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by HKr1

Thought it was Fast Eddie

That would be Fast Freddie

[Misti]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Misti, every time I ride.

My first step was getting away from a death grip on the bars. I now try to hold the grips like I am holding a bird, nice and delicate.

Sweet I try to practice every time I ride as well and sometimes at the Superbike School we coach riders on how to brake/downshift at the same time first statically and then while riding in the parking lot.

Important for sure to get away from death gripping the bars and I hear a lot of people say they try to hold the grips like a bird or a wine glass or something delicate

Cheers!

Misti

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by Misti

Sweet I try to practice every time I ride as well and sometimes at the Superbike School we coach riders on how to brake/downshift at the same time first statically and then while riding in the parking lot.

Important for sure to get away from death gripping the bars and I hear a lot of people say they try to hold the grips like a bird or a wine glass or something delicate

Cheers!

Misti

[coondog]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Why would it be unnecessary?

I don't ride like eddie lawson, i ride my age, i keep large enough pockets between me and others, i don't go nuts on speeding and then having to slow down quickly, i'm a rural rider not urban or track, i can match the two up without doing two opposite things.

[coondog]

Originally Posted by spooph

Coondog, I don't find it unnecessary at all... It's a great feeling to always be in the power band and have super smooth shifts... Even if I don't brake at the same time. A handy skill to have well practiced in an emergency....

Indy, I love the bar-ends. I can see with them easily, but they're so small I can't really see details in them. They allow me to see red and blue flashy lights behind me (those are important to see), and otherwise just blobs to make sure those blobs don't run into me at a stop light, etc.... I don't need to make out the front license plate of a car, or even what kind of car it is, if I have time to look in the rear view mirror... If you catch my drift...

In what emergency would you be braking AND accelerating at the same time. I would be braking OR speeding up in any i can think of; countersteering, speeding up or using front brakes, rear(off and on), and downshifting (possibly through more than one gear at a time). Maybe I was trained different, I always have power in my right hand, if i need to slow down I let off the throttle, i use a brake (F or R) depending on how much, and then utilize a gear if i have to. If I need to speed up we all know how to do that. To me braking and giving throttle simultaneously is a position never to find myself in, unless like i said at a track or in a race. Tell me it's me it's o.k.

[JeffM]

No braking and accelerating at the same time unless you are doing the blip wrong.

Blipping while braking just smooths things out and is fun. I found it very rewarding to learn a new skill as I'm always trying to improve my abilities. You can ride your whole career and never brake-blip-downshift. So I suppose you are correct that it is "unnecessary".

However, sometimes you can hold a little throttle and brake as you corner to help control your line. My riding takes me into mountain canyons and the brake-blip-downshift comes in real handy at times. Oh, and I do ride my age - 54.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by coondog

I don't ride like eddie lawson, i ride my age, i keep large enough pockets between me and others, i go nuts on speeding and then slow down quickly, i'm a rider not track, i can match the two things.

Eddie probably is about your age!

[Cuongism]

Originally Posted by coondog

In what emergency would you be braking AND accelerating at the same time. I would be braking OR speeding up in any i can think of; countersteering, speeding up or using front brakes, rear(off and on), and downshifting (possibly through more than one gear at a time). Maybe I was trained different, I always have power in my right hand, if i need to slow down I let off the throttle, i use a brake (F or R) depending on how much, and then utilize a gear if i have to. If I need to speed up we all know how to do that. To me braking and giving throttle simultaneously is a position never to find myself in, unless like i said at a track or in a race. Tell me it's me it's o.k.

Blipping doesn't make you accelerate at all; the purpose of blipping is to smooth out downshifts. Let's say I'm braking and and my rpm goes down to 6k. My three options are below for downshifts:
-rev match by slowly letting out the clutch which is smooth, but wears on the clutch
-pop the clutch without blipping, but makes for a jerky gear shift
-blip the throttle so when you pop out the clutch, the rpms will be be where it should be for a lower gear (ie blip to 7-8k)

When done right, it's extremely smooth and you don't feel the downshift at all. Maybe one day they'll install slipper clutches on the 250, but that takes away the fun!

[spooph]

Originally Posted by coondog

In what emergency would you be braking AND accelerating at the same time. I would be braking OR speeding up in any i can think of; countersteering, speeding up or using front brakes, rear(off and on), and downshifting (possibly through more than one gear at a time). Maybe I was trained different, I always have power in my right hand, if i need to slow down I let off the throttle, i use a brake (F or R) depending on how much, and then utilize a gear if i have to. If I need to speed up we all know how to do that. To me braking and giving throttle simultaneously is a position never to find myself in, unless like i said at a track or in a race. Tell me it's me it's o.k.

Coondog, sorry, this is going to be a lengthy response. As some other people have expressed, it's not about accelerating and braking at the same time... BUT, it seems to me that you are a very responsible and careful driver with good habits... I'm not really one to talk, for I don't know you, and I don't ride my age. I just wanted to let you know I see where you're coming from... Now, to redress the point:

Since blipping the throttle simply speeds up your shifts, while making them smoother, the emergency situation I'm addressing is a bit vague here. Let me explain. In conjunction, I see 2 possible benefits to practicing this technique.

The first direct benefit would be that you're in the power without upsetting the bike in any way, always. You've stated you have this figured out, wonderful! I probably ride a bit more aggressively (stupidly) than you do, and therefor end up in situations that would probably be a bit too close for your comfort in many cases. Because of that, I prefer to shift as fast and smooth as possible to have the smallest interruption to power as possible.

EX: I'm cruising down a 2 lane road, in the right lane, at the speed limit with a safety pocket all around me. I see a car entering the merge lane on my right. I give the car room, then a car from the left merges without looking and I have to brake quickly (at which point I'd be blipping and downshifting), because the left lane has just been eliminated as an escape route. At this point I've successfully avoided 2 accidents. Let's roll HELL into the mix when some idiot doesn't see any of this action going on and comes bearing down on my rear tire, possibly hitting his/her brakes too late... I'm not gonna stick around to find out, so, with my only escape route being the shoulder (dirty with sand), or in between the 2 cars now going in a steady pace, I accelerate to in-between the previous 2 cars, freaking them out. Since I'm already in the power, with the chassis settled, me not having transferred any weight in a sudden, jerking manner as only a clutch drop or hamfisted shift could do in the nick of time, I've just saved myself from the 3rd accident. Once the idiot behind me has noticed and backed off, I pull back behind the initial car which came in from the right and make sure everybody is paying attention... You might think this situation extreme however, and that it doesn't happen that often.... You might be asking yourself why wouldn't he just pull into the left lane so the driver that was going to run into him wouldn't. Well, it takes more concentration to pay attention to what's going on behind me than in front of me, and if I'm in between 2 cars, there are 2 significantly larger objects to see, and hit - if worst comes to worst, before hitting me... Selfish thinking? Sure! No, splitting lanes is NOT legal in CO. I don't care what is legal or illegal if it comes to my safety.

By having practiced blipping the throttle, I could comfortably avoid 3 accidents in a matter of 8 seconds without breaking a sweat, mostly because of vigilance, practice and proper braking technique, and of course, the added practiced technique of blipping while braking. Sure, there are many ways to mitigate this situation, that's the way I handled it 3 weeks ago - so it's not that unrealistic of a situation. It actually happened.

OK, OK, Spooph is rambling again, almost done. The second benefit I see to practicing blipping while braking is simply to increase the knowledge, understanding and interaction with ones motorcycle. Blipping has to be accurate, and the FEEL it provides the rider with the inner workings of the drive-train (clutch, transmission, chain drive, cush drive, not to mention rear tire pressure) increases the rider's familiarity with a motorcycle which increases the overall comfort and confidence to be able to deal with emergency situations. I'm not trying to say the increased ability to handle emergency situations, but rather the comfort with which one deals with them. And that's the point I was trying to make, with less words. That by simply practicing this technique, it helps to increase the overall comfort with ones bike which will manifest in all kinds of wonderful ways - secondary ways - meaning ways that aren't directly connected to the act of practicing a specific technique.

Again, please pardon the long response, I just want to be clear. Oh, and by the way, you are correct, it is unnecessary. I'm just saying that although unnecessary, it certain does help... Kind of like frame sliders...

[rockNroll]

Blipping does not speed up your shifts

[coondog]

Originally Posted by spooph

Coondog, sorry, this is going to be a lengthy response. As some other people have expressed, it's not about accelerating and braking at the same time... BUT, it seems to me that you are a very responsible and careful driver with good habits... I'm not really one to talk, for I don't know you, and I don't ride my age. I just wanted to let you know I see where you're coming from... Now, to redress the point:

Since blipping the throttle simply speeds up your shifts, while making them smoother, the emergency situation I'm addressing is a bit vague here. Let me explain. In conjunction, I see 2 possible benefits to practicing this technique.

The first direct benefit would be that you're in the power without upsetting the bike in any way, always. You've stated you have this figured out, wonderful! I probably ride a bit more aggressively (stupidly) than you do, and therefor end up in situations that would probably be a bit too close for your comfort in many cases. Because of that, I prefer to shift as fast and smooth as possible to have the smallest interruption to power as possible.

EX: I'm cruising down a 2 lane road, in the right lane, at the speed limit with a safety pocket all around me. I see a car entering the merge lane on my right. I give the car room, then a car from the left merges without looking and I have to brake quickly (at which point I'd be blipping and downshifting), because the left lane has just been eliminated as an escape route. At this point I've successfully avoided 2 accidents. Let's roll HELL into the mix when some idiot doesn't see any of this action going on and comes bearing down on my rear tire, possibly hitting his/her brakes too late... I'm not gonna stick around to find out, so, with my only escape route being the shoulder (dirty with sand), or in between the 2 cars now going in a steady pace, I accelerate to in-between the previous 2 cars, freaking them out. Since I'm already in the power, with the chassis settled, me not having transferred any weight in a sudden, jerking manner as only a clutch drop or hamfisted shift could do in the nick of time, I've just saved myself from the 3rd accident. Once the idiot behind me has noticed and backed off, I pull back behind the initial car which came in from the right and make sure everybody is paying attention... You might think this situation extreme however, and that it doesn't happen that often.... You might be asking yourself why wouldn't he just pull into the left lane so the driver that was going to run into him wouldn't. Well, it takes more concentration to pay attention to what's going on behind me than in front of me, and if I'm in between 2 cars, there are 2 significantly larger objects to see, and hit - if worst comes to worst, before hitting me... Selfish thinking? Sure! No, splitting lanes is NOT legal in CO. I don't care what is legal or illegal if it comes to my safety.

By having practiced blipping the throttle, I could comfortably avoid 3 accidents in a matter of 8 seconds without breaking a sweat, mostly because of vigilance, practice and proper braking technique, and of course, the added practiced technique of blipping while braking. Sure, there are many ways to mitigate this situation, that's the way I handled it 3 weeks ago - so it's not that unrealistic of a situation. It actually happened.

OK, OK, Spooph is rambling again, almost done. The second benefit I see to practicing blipping while braking is simply to increase the knowledge, understanding and interaction with ones motorcycle. Blipping has to be accurate, and the FEEL it provides the rider with the inner workings of the drive-train (clutch, transmission, chain drive, cush drive, not to mention rear tire pressure) increases the rider's familiarity with a motorcycle which increases the overall comfort and confidence to be able to deal with emergency situations. I'm not trying to say the increased ability to handle emergency situations, but rather the comfort with which one deals with them. And that's the point I was trying to make, with less words. That by simply practicing this technique, it helps to increase the overall comfort with ones bike which will manifest in all kinds of wonderful ways - secondary ways - meaning ways that aren't directly connected to the act of practicing a specific technique.

Again, please pardon the long response, I just want to be clear. Oh, and by the way, you are correct, it is unnecessary. I'm just saying that although unnecessary, it certain does help... Kind of like frame sliders...

Thanks alot bro, actually you possibly avoided a trifecta, if you had tried changing lanes with #3 behind you. And I understand the lovers of curves, i experienced and learned countersteering due to them while in georgia for 5 years. Florida is flat and square for the most part. And basically I have blipped and downshifting together at times on the highway when I was playing Racer X. Also speedshifting on a run is definetly in a way the same except you don't bother with the blip, you never let off the throttle. Listen I appreciate your patience with me and everyone elses for that matter. Ride On.

[spooph]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

Blipping does not speed up your shifts

um, not sure where you're going with this. If I downshift and don't blip, I have to release the clutch slower to allow the engine to spin up, no? Explain please.

Coondog, your welcome and thank you for being patient with me. Much respect!

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by spooph

um, not sure where you're going with this. If I downshift and don't blip, I have to release the clutch slower to allow the engine to spin up, no? Explain please.

Let's keep simple with this. Only applying to a 250 Ninja, no race bikes, fi bikes, etc.

These bikes don't decell THAT quick when you pull in the clutch. If you can't just let the clutch out as quick as you please without a huge mismatch with engine speed you're taking too long to down shift. Also, the throttle response on these bikes is less than stellar. Some bike's engines feel like they're connected to your wrist, not the 250 Ninja, it takes a great deal of time to blip up. If you're blipping a 250 Ninja then your shift is waaay slower than what it can be.

Yeah, it's fun to do sometimes and if the shift is down through multiple gears at once (pull in clutch and hold, click down through more than one gear), then I'll use a blip.

These are uses for blipping and sometimes I blip. I'm not telling anyone to not blip, but let's not think it makes the shift process quicker.

[Cuongism]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

These bikes don't decell THAT quick when you pull in the clutch. If you can't just let the clutch out as quick as you please without a huge mismatch with engine speed you're taking too long to down shift. Also, the throttle response on these bikes is less than stellar. Some bike's engines feel like they're connected to your wrist, not the 250 Ninja, it takes a great deal of time to blip up. If you're blipping a 250 Ninja then your shift is waaay slower than what it can be.

So you're saying when you pop your clutch on a downshift, you don't feel it jerk or the rear even chatter? What rpm do you downshift in then? Can you also elaborate on how a downshift can be slow? Letting out the clutch slowly (which blipping eliminates) or actually pushing the gear lever slowly?


Btw, my throtte response feels the same as my cbr. They have different turn ratios, but the 250 does respond right away for me (it's well tuned).

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by Cuongism

So you're saying when you pop your clutch on a downshift, you don't feel it jerk or the rear even chatter? What rpm do you downshift in then? Can you also elaborate on how a downshift can be slow? Letting out the clutch slowly (which blipping eliminates) or actually pushing the gear lever slowly?


Btw, my throtte response feels the same as my cbr. They have different turn ratios, but the 250 does respond right away for me (it's well tuned).

Does it jerk? Sure, a little bit, not much. Chatter? No, it won't chatter unless you let the rpm's fall too far (you're taking too long to shift). What rpm do I shift at? well.. depends on what I'm doing.. there's no one answer for that. You can let the clutch out a lot quicker without blipping than you can with blipping.. you don't have to wait for the blip, pretty simple.

If your throttle response of your Ninja 250 and CBR 600 are the same, then your CBR needs work, your Ninja 250 is tuned waaay beyond any that I have seen (and you've done significant internal engine work to lighten things up in there, probably running a total loss system too) or a combo of both.

[Cuongism]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

Does it jerk? Sure, a little bit, not much. Chatter? No, it won't chatter unless you let the rpm's fall too far (you're taking too long to shift). What rpm do I shift at? well.. depends on what I'm doing.. there's no one answer for that. You can let the clutch out a lot quicker without blipping than you can with blipping.. you don't have to wait for the blip, pretty simple.

If your throttle response of your Ninja 250 and CBR 600 are the same, then your CBR needs work, your Ninja 250 is tuned waaay beyond any that I have seen (and you've done significant internal engine work to lighten things up in there, probably running a total loss system too) or a combo of both.

I'm still confused by what you mean by taking too long to shift. I basically pop my clutch which is a split second. You're not waiting for a blip, everything is simultaneous. Same goes as an upshift; it's smoothest when you do all steps simultaneously. I guess we can agree to disagree.

I've had both my bikes dynoed and modded(250 with DJ and CBR with power commander). They definitely have different turn ratios where slight turns on the CBR is more significant, but the 250 still responds instantaneously to throttle movement as well (ie no hesitation).

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by Cuongism

I'm still confused by what you mean by taking too long to shift. I basically pop my clutch which is a split second. You're not waiting for a blip, everything is simultaneous. Same goes as an upshift; it's smoothest when you do all steps simultaneously. I guess we can agree to disagree.

I've had both my bikes dynoed and modded(250 with DJ and CBR with power commander). They definitely have different turn ratios where slight turns on the CBR is more significant, but the 250 still responds instantaneously to throttle movement as well (ie no hesitation).

Cool on the tuning of the bikes I'm not sure how I can unconfuse you (I invented a word!) If you blip, you're waiting for the engine to increase rpm's before releasing the clutch (as quick as you think your engine is, there's a wait) also, I can just release my clutch lever quicker than you can rock/unrock your throttle and then release your clutch, so even if you have "instant" throttle response on your Ninja, my shift will be done before yours.

[alex.s]

maybe i'm getting into something i don't want to... but, if you're blipping the throttle, who uses the clutch? i mean a TINY TINY bit to smooth it out a little more, but the point of blipping is so the engine matches up so you DONT HAVE TO use the clutch. regardless of whether or not it's "Faster" makes no difference. you aren't dropping 5 gears in 2 seconds with the kind of brakes these bikes have. but anyway, pressure down on the shifter, and a blip will always be faster and smoother (on this bike anyway) in my book than pulling in a clutch and then shifting. and then using the clutch to get your revs right again.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by alex.s

maybe i'm getting into something i don't want to... but, if you're blipping the throttle, who uses the clutch? i mean a TINY TINY bit to smooth it out a little more, but the point of blipping is so the engine matches up so you DONT HAVE TO use the clutch. regardless of whether or not it's "Faster" makes no difference. you aren't dropping 5 gears in 2 seconds with the kind of brakes these bikes have. but anyway, pressure down on the shifter, and a blip will always be faster and smoother (on this bike anyway) in my book than pulling in a clutch and then shifting. and then using the clutch to get your revs right again.

You blip with the clutch still engaged? Is that a blip? Think about it.

[spooph]

I guess I'll have to agree to disagree as well. I'm keeping my eye on this one though, just in case I've missed something...

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

You blip with the clutch still engaged? Is that a blip? Think about it.

have you not tried clutchless shifting? if you have pressure on the shifter, as soon as the engine releases pressure on the transmission (ie- the engine starts to accelerate while the bike is slowing with the clutch engaged; ie engine braking with a blip, or the reverse; cutting the throttle quickly with pressure on the shifter to shift up) the transmission slips into the next gear exactly the way it's designed to. a little clutch is simply to smooth things out. ... didn't they teach us this in the BRC class?

edit: p.s. the video is of eddie lawson... racing a gp bike... i seriously doubt he ever pulls the clutch in more than a hair... all gas or all brake. coasting is very slow.

edit2: here's a video of the clutch hand:

Link to original page on YouTube.