wide band A/F Gauge

[randomwalk101]

why so cheap now? Used to be $400 or so...now 1/2 price shipped.

http://www.aemonly.com/gauges-uego-7...FRJY2godc0jLBg

So dyno run is about $100 or so already..might as well get this and mount it...tune as you go...

[ztrack157]

Old stock. The new units are getting ready to come out.

[randomwalk101]

^^new units prob has more bells & whistles to interface with the AEM EMS which we prob never need?

[CThunder-blue]

They've been that price for a long time now. Maybe if you're only looking at the aem website they're more expensive, but their retailers don't sell it for msrp. Innovate sells their kits for $240.

[dubojr1]

Are these weather proof?

[kogary]

I have the Innovate Motorsports LM-2 kit (got it for about $275 on amazon) with the RPM inductive clamp (another $30). They list the same kit on their site for $350ish. Once you get the inductive clamp, you're still looking at almost $400 for everything you need to data log your AFR and tune correctly (I don't consider installing a new carb jet, doing a WOT pull, and using your butt-dyno to tune, correct tuning... that's more of a "baseline" if you will). The difference between older WB setups and the new ones have a lot to do with sample rates and more input options (e.g., rpm, temp, etc., etc.). I had the LM-1 years ago (which was great in it's day), but the LM-2 is by far a superior AFR tool.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by kogary

I have the Innovate Motorsports LM-2 kit (got it for about $275 on amazon) with the RPM inductive clamp (another $30). They list the same kit on their site for $350ish. Once you get the inductive clamp, you're still looking at almost $400 for everything you need to data log your AFR and tune correctly (I don't consider installing a new carb jet, doing a WOT pull, and using your butt-dyno to tune, correct tuning... that's more of a "baseline" if you will). The difference between older WB setups and the new ones have a lot to do with sample rates and more input options (e.g., rpm, temp, etc., etc.). I had the LM-1 years ago (which was great in it's day), but the LM-2 is by far a superior AFR tool.

Pics or your lying...

[kogary]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

Pics or your lying...

As requested...

O2 bung welded on the stock header:
I took the header and provided o2 bung (standard length) to a muffler shop and had them weld it on. Had I of known it was going to be the worst weld job I've ever seen, I would have definitely taken it else where. But oh well, at least it is hidden behind the fairings.






Header installed:
The o2 sensor barely touches the motor. If you decide to use the stock header, which already has a spot for an o2 bung to be welded on (thanks to the European FI model), make sure to try and offset the bung from the middle of the flat spot.






RPM inductive clamp hooked on the spark plug wire:
For anyone looking into logging AFR/RPM, I recommend skipping the inductive clamp and getting the analog input instead (tap the tach. signal). I find that the inductive clamp readings jump around a lot and it looks like it has a hard time picking up a solid signal.





Power setup:
The LM-2 is powered by a 12V source and via a cigarette socket. I bought a battery to cigarette socket hardwire kit from Powerlet and ran it under the seat and up through the "storage" compartment. I keep the power disconnected when it's not connected to the LM-2 (otherwise it will drain the battery).









LM-2 hooked up and reading AFR/RPM:
And the final product... all hooked up and logging the AFR (2GB memory card)

Fairings back on and wiring tucked away. I keep the wideband unit in the bag when driving around so it can continuously datalog. After I get the carbs dialed in I remove all LM-2 and the o2 sensor (kit comes with a bolt to plug the bung) and tuck the power wiring away.










Anyway, hope this helps. I opted not to get a permanent setup because I want to be able to easily transfer the wideband setup to another bike when the time comes to tune something else.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by kogary

As requested...

[FrugalNinja250]

Nice writeup!

On the O2 sensor bung there's no reason why one can't grind a small bevel on the base before welding it in place. This would angle the sensor away from the motor a bit and not interfere with function in any way.

[kogary]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

Nice writeup!

On the O2 sensor bung there's no reason why one can't grind a small bevel on the base before welding it in place. This would angle the sensor away from the motor a bit and not interfere with function in any way.

Agreed. I really wish I would have known the quality of work the shop was going to do before taking it to them. I believe I asked them to slightly offset the bung to the right (though they centered it), but there was a "language barrier" so I can understand if my request got lost in translation. Oh well, I'll be replacing the header/exhaust next season with an AP race exhaust with a bung pre-welded in


To RandomWalk101, if you're seriously looking at getting a WB setup, I would highly recommend getting a removable unit. It's so handy being able to do your tuning, then put everything away and not have to worry about the hardware. Last thing you want is to leave your bike unattended (driveway, store, local hangout, etc.) and 5 minutes later find your AEM gauge gone. Trust me, I've seen entire A-Pillar gauge pods yanked from cars with nothing more than a window slightly rolled down.... on a bike, it's like taking candy from a baby.

[Bueller999]

Hey Gary, looks like you got those tires swapped out huh?
We had a great day @ IMI Saturday, but I was the only Ninjette out there.
And I pretty much finished off my front, now I need another

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by kogary

To RandomWalk101, if you're seriously looking at getting a WB setup, I would highly recommend getting a removable unit. It's so handy being able to do your tuning, then put everything away and not have to worry about the hardware. Last thing you want is to leave your bike unattended (driveway, store, local hangout, etc.) and 5 minutes later find your AEM gauge gone. Trust me, I've seen entire A-Pillar gauge pods yanked from cars with nothing more than a window slightly rolled down.... on a bike, it's like taking candy from a baby.

Thanks...still thinking about it. Right now I'm ordering a custom Koso faceplate for my koso meter. There are too many craps on my bike, they won't be just taking a $200 a/f gauge cuz that's one of the cheaper mod...trust me
but A/F is just for tuning..after it's tune, ideally it should be removed cuz that wideband oxygen sensor will burn out.

[spooph]

This is awesome info, thanks guys!

[kogary]

Originally Posted by Bueller999

Hey Gary, looks like you got those tires swapped out huh?
We had a great day @ IMI Saturday, but I was the only Ninjette out there.
And I pretty much finished off my front, now I need another

Hi David,
Yeah I got those BT-003RS tires mounted on Friday. So far I like them. They have a much different sensation when steering into a turn than the stockers did. These just really pull the bike through a turn, whereas the stockers felt like the bike glided through the turn. I put about 40 miles on them yesterday trying to scrub them before I hit IMI this coming Saturday (03/19/2011).

Thanks...still thinking about it. Right now I'm ordering a custom Koso faceplate for my koso meter. There are too many craps on my bike, they won't be just taking a $200 a/f gauge cuz that's one of the cheaper mod...trust me
but A/F is just for tuning..after it's tune, ideally it should be removed cuz that wideband oxygen sensor will burn out.

I left the WB sensor in my previous car and it was fine for about 15,000 miles (still spot on when I sold the car). I don't think there is too big of an issue leaving it in on the bike as long as you don't use leaded fuels. But I'm still with you... better to just remove it if not in use. Afterall, it only take what, 2 minutes to install/remove, so why not?!?!?

[randomwalk101]

kogary,

what is your current A/F ratio reading and what is your current jet setting? Thx.

[kogary]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

kogary,

what is your current A/F ratio reading and what is your current jet setting? Thx.

I have my idle AFR set at 13.5:1 - 13.9:1 once warm. My jetting is stock (98 main). I had major lean spot issues when the bike was stock. After deceleration (or just blipping the throttle), the AFR would hover around 16:1 - 16.8:1 for between 5-8 seconds before returning to 14.5:1 - 15.0:1. Low range (2k-5k RPM) would also hit the 15.0:1 mark under moderate to hard acceleration. That area was cleaned up by shimming the carbs (3 washers), and now I'm seeing 11.6:1 - 12.0:1 under WOT. I'm going to take out 1 washer per needle to see if I can't bump this up to the 12.8:1 range for a bit more power. I've also noticed when I hit ~11,000 RPM, my bike doesn't pull as hard. Now, I'm not sure if that's due to running very rich up top, of if that's just the nature of the bike. My inductive RPM pickup clamp is having a hard time consistently acquiring anything over 6000 rpm, so I'm really not sure what's going on up top. Luckly, tracking the AFR at the top of the RPM band is much easier than in the middle. Just let off the throttle at 13,000 rpm and the AFR immediately spikes to 16-18:1 range. Taking the lowest value before the huge AFR spike tells you where you were at

* Just a note: This troubleshooting stuff is the EXACT reason why I bought this setup. Can you imagine trying to accurately (well as accurate as you can get with a carb) do this by feel alone?!?!?! And at 13,000 RPM, small amounts of detonation equal catastrophic damage to your motor...

Since I live in Denver, CO (~5280 feet ASL), I'm running rather rich under WOT. I'm going to do some more WOT data logs next week and will probably order some jets from www.JetsRUs.com in the near future. After I get it all dialed in, I'll do a few dyno pulls to see what it's putting down.

** I just realized I went off on a huge tangent to answer two simple questions. Sorry about that!!

-Gary

[Bueller999]

Originally Posted by kogary

Hi David,
Yeah I got those BT-003RS tires mounted on Friday. So far I like them. They have a much different sensation when steering into a turn than the stockers did. These just really pull the bike through a turn, whereas the stockers felt like the bike glided through the turn. I put about 40 miles on them yesterday trying to scrub them before I hit IMI this coming Saturday (03/19/2011).

If I can get another front mounted up I might show up, I really trashed the front last weekend.
I would rather scrub tires on the track it only takes a couple of easy laps to get it done.
I went ahead and put the 98 jets in since my A/F was a bit lean on the dyno but I am going back to the 95's this week, she likes to run a bit lean up top.
Doing the ride posted on CSC tomorrow on my Buell, we are meeting at the Morrison Conoco @ 11:00.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by kogary

I have my idle AFR set at 13.5:1 - 13.9:1 once warm. My jetting is stock (98 main). I had major lean spot issues when the bike was stock. After deceleration (or just blipping the throttle), the AFR would hover around 16:1 - 16.8:1 for between 5-8 seconds before returning to 14.5:1 - 15.0:1. Low range (2k-5k RPM) would also hit the 15.0:1 mark under moderate to hard acceleration. That area was cleaned up by shimming the carbs (3 washers), and now I'm seeing 11.6:1 - 12.0:1 under WOT. I'm going to take out 1 washer per needle to see if I can't bump this up to the 12.8:1 range for a bit more power. I've also noticed when I hit ~11,000 RPM, my bike doesn't pull as hard. Now, I'm not sure if that's due to running very rich up top, of if that's just the nature of the bike. My inductive RPM pickup clamp is having a hard time consistently acquiring anything over 6000 rpm, so I'm really not sure what's going on up top. Luckly, tracking the AFR at the top of the RPM band is much easier than in the middle. Just let off the throttle at 13,000 rpm and the AFR immediately spikes to 16-18:1 range. Taking the lowest value before the huge AFR spike tells you where you were at

* Just a note: This troubleshooting stuff is the EXACT reason why I bought this setup. Can you imagine trying to accurately (well as accurate as you can get with a carb) do this by feel alone?!?!?! And at 13,000 RPM, small amounts of detonation equal catastrophic damage to your motor...

Since I live in Denver, CO (~5280 feet ASL), I'm running rather rich under WOT. I'm going to do some more WOT data logs next week and will probably order some jets from www.JetsRUs.com in the near future. After I get it all dialed in, I'll do a few dyno pulls to see what it's putting down.

** I just realized I went off on a huge tangent to answer two simple questions. Sorry about that!!

-Gary

This information is awesome! My butt dyno is getting older and I'd love to have a similar setup to dial in everything. Good job!

[randomwalk101]

Thanks Gary. Looks like I'll get the AEM UEGO to play with after I get my custom faceplate for the Koso rx2. That bezel has a 52mm hole to mount the gauge. I have a mig welder & drilling tools to mount that oxygen bung.
Your WOT a/f is a tad rich...I would try to remove a washer and have it around 13. They recommended 12.8:1 -13.2:1 for NA engine.

[kogary]

Originally Posted by Bueller999

If I can get another front mounted up I might show up, I really trashed the front last weekend.
I would rather scrub tires on the track it only takes a couple of easy laps to get it done.
I went ahead and put the 98 jets in since my A/F was a bit lean on the dyno but I am going back to the 95's this week, she likes to run a bit lean up top.
Doing the ride posted on CSC tomorrow on my Buell, we are meeting at the Morrison Conoco @ 11:00.

Right on, well hope to see you there Saturday!

Do you have the dyno plot printed out from your last session? I'm curious what your AFR looked like from 5k-redline.

-Gary

[kogary]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

Thanks Gary. Looks like I'll get the AEM UEGO to play with after I get my custom faceplate for the Koso rx2. That bezel has a 52mm hole to mount the gauge. I have a mig welder & drilling tools to mount that oxygen bung.
Your WOT a/f is a tad rich...I would try to remove a washer and have it around 13. They recommended 12.8:1 -13.2:1 for NA engine.

I'll remove one washer per needle next week (gotta take it to the track this weekend and play!) and see if I can't get the AFR to that 12.8:1 - 13.2:1 sweet spot

Nice choice on the AEM. Those are great units.

Make sure to post some pics of the Koso install! That gauge cluster looks awesome! I'm sure you're going to have one slick looking cluster with the Koso and AEM right next to each other

-Gary

[Momaru]

Somewhat of a newbie question set:
Best place to weld an O2 sensor bung is immediately downstream of the Y-pipe joint (i've got an AreaP full system)?
And thus a no-weld bung is a silly idea for us?

[Broc]

I've had alot of experience tuning using these gauges and on this bike, thought I'd give my 2 cents.

If you did get the AEM UEGO do no mount it permanently to the bike, it is not in the least bit water tight. Ask me how I know

I used the AEM UEGO to tune my bike when I got my HMF slip on. I used (2) washers on the needles & everything else stock. The end result was absolutely perfect match with the HMF. My AFR's were stuck between 12.5-13.2 on WOT. Cruising and partial throttle are around 13.5-14.8 depending on RPM. Around 11k the bike would lean out a tad & reach 12.9-13.0 range which is still suitable and no detonation can be heard from the engine. Thus, my bike continues to pull from 11k to 13k. Over the years I've discovered the real need for a AFR and EGT devices because a leaner engine will actually make more power and "feel" better when it really isn't.
This is why you never ever street tune and rely on your "butt dyno"

Also, to add the AEM UEGO has no way of data logging unless you are running it in conjunction with a stand alone ECM ie.> AEM EMS, PCS, Hondata, Chrome, yadda yadda. So seeing as we don't have stand alone fuel injected car ecm's you cannot data log with it. I sold my AEM after tuning for this very reason. I mounted my for a few weeks and watched it like a hawk. It did rain on me once and water did get into the gauge face, not enough to ruin it but if I wasn't closer to home I'm sure it would have!

I would pick up one of the new innovative units that uses a gauge/data log unit you can hook your lap top up to! However, the AEM works just as well!

[spooph]

Quick question for you Gurus.... What's the "perfect" A/F ratio? I've heard number like 14.7 - anything lower and you're in the "lean" side of things, anything higher and you're on the rich side of things.... Is this old-school thought for old cast-iron V8 blocks and heads? What should be the goal?

Also a note for Gary and Bueller, although you guys probably already know, for the RMA 250cup, the guy who dyno'd the demo fleet said he got some really good results with the 94-96 (95) sized main jets...

An innovate setup is so next on my list of things to get for the bike...

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by spooph

Quick question for you Gurus.... What's the "perfect" A/F ratio? I've heard number like 14.7 - anything lower and you're in the "lean" side of things, anything higher and you're on the rich side of things.... Is this old-school thought for old cast-iron V8 blocks and heads? What should be the goal?

Also a note for Gary and Bueller, although you guys probably already know, for the RMA 250cup, the guy who dyno'd the demo fleet said he got some really good results with the 94-96 (95) sized main jets...

An innovate setup is so next on my list of things to get for the bike...

Spooph, i think you got the numbers in reverse. Around 14.7 is best hp but you're walking a fine line...especially with carb bikes where fuel cannot be tightly controlled like FI, I would stay in the recommended range (above). Heck, even with FI, I wouldn't want to live in the 14 either unless i'm racing..then of course, engine rebuild after every race

[kogary]

Originally Posted by Momaru

Somewhat of a newbie question set:
Best place to weld an O2 sensor bung is immediately downstream of the Y-pipe joint (i've got an AreaP full system)?
And thus a no-weld bung is a silly idea for us?

Yes, as close to the Y-pipe intersection as possible, while still maintaining at least 12 inches away from any exhaust port (too close will overheat/burn out a sensor).

[kogary]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

Spooph, i think you got the numbers in reverse. Around 14.7 is best hp but you're walking a fine line...especially with carb bikes where fuel cannot be tightly controlled like FI, I would stay in the recommended range (above). Heck, even with FI, I wouldn't want to live in the 14 either unless i'm racing..then of course, engine rebuild after every race

Just to clarify a bit on this 14.7:1 ratio...

14.7:1 is the ratio to achieve a stoichiometric burn. However, this is not the target ratio for maximum power (just an optimal burn). 14:7:1 is great for cruising down the highway or coasting along down a small decline, when there is very little load on the motor. But under WOT, you have a huge load on the motor. Temperature (and subsequently cylinder pressure) increases and can cause detonation. Adding more fuel (running rich) effectively lowers cylinder temperature creating a “cooler” and “longer” burn… this in turn creates more power per combustion stroke. For those who are wondering why this is, see below for more detailed explanation. Else, shoot for a 12.8:1 - 13.4:1 ratio.

*Note: 13.4:1 should generally be targeted when using higher octane (e.g., 91, 93, etc.) due to the high RPM and high static compression ratio nature of our motors (higher RPM increases probability of catastrophic damage due to detonation).

On to the detailed explanation of the “magic” AFR target number…

When you go WOT, you start putting a large load on the motor. This load causes your cylinder temperatures to increase substantially. During this process, cylinder pressure starts increasing due to temperature increase and change in cylinder volume... remember your chemistry equations PV = nRT?

So this means that Pressure = (n*R*Temp)/(Volume). So as volume decreases (on your compression stroke), pressure increases. Quickly compressing a gas causes temperature to increase too.
So you've got two big things going on in your cylinder...
- Increased cylinder pressure
- Increased temperatures

So what does this have to do with your AFR??? A lot actually...


Energy:
As molecules heat up, they gain energy... as they gain energy, electrons are more able to "freely" move around. This moving of electrons is what combustion is all about. So the higher the temperature, the more these electrons are prone to move around before you are ready for them to do so (aka- pre-ignition... aka- detonation).

Now imagine packing more fuel molecules into the same given system as above (lowering your AFR... aka- running rich). Now you have a lot more of these molecules bumping around and hitting each other. As you know, you have to apply energy to get things to move, right? Well the more things you have in your cylinder (fuel molecules) the more energy you have to apply to make them move around (we feel this increase in energy in the form of heat!). So by adding more molecules (aka- running rich), you are decreasing the ability of the system to achieve a higher energy level (i.e., you're cylinder temperature is now lower!). So now that you’re cylinder temperature is lower (subsequently lowering cylinder pressure), your less prone to detonation (a very good thing!)


Timing is key:
But wait! Now you’re thinking, “Don’t we want more energy?!?! If we’re decreasing cylinder temperatures, and the energy of the system is lower, doesn’t that mean we won’t make as much power?”

The answer is yes, and no. Yes, we do want more energy, but timing the delivery of energy is key! We want the energy from our combustion to be applied at a very specific time… if we apply it too early (detonation) you risk applying force to the rotating assembly (pistons, rods, crank, bearings, etc.) while it’s still in an early stage of the compression stroke. By the time the combustion finishes burning (happens in milliseconds!), your piston still may not have even reached top dead center, or if it has, cylinder pressures/temps are so high and HOT that you start breaking metal components (e.g., cracking pistons, burning valves, bending connecting rods, etc.)!

By running more fuel (aka- running rich), you are helping to control cylinder temperature and pressure, thus controling air/fuel mixture combustion timing. Additionally, by having those extra fuel molecules floating around you create a longer burn. Any unspent fuel still in the combustion chamber after your primary combustion still has the ability to burn. Now since we don’t live in a perfect world, not every air molecule actually bonded and combusted with a fuel molecule. This means that we still have free air and fuel molecules floating around after the primary combustion that can actually have a post burn effect. This post burn effect usually happens on the down stroke of the combustion stroke and still creates a force on the piston! So while it doesn’t create nearly as much force as the primary combustion, it still has a positive effect.

Now some may be thinking, “If adding more fuel suddenly makes more power than a stoichiometric mixture, why not just dump TONS of fuel into the mixture… like a 1:1 ratio?”

Well unfortunately we do have to find a balance. There comes a point when too much fuel actually has a negative effect and prevents cylinder pressure/temperatures from achieving optimal conditions for maximum power delivery. Additionally, you can run into a reverse effect of creating a system that has so much fuel in the AFR and your exhaust gas temperatures start getting hotter than even an optimal burn temperature. Weird, huhh?!?! But this again has to do with post burn.

If you ever get a chance to watch someone with an EGT gauge (exhaust gas temperature) play around with their AFR, you can see the EGT’s go down as you go from 15:1 to 14:1 to 13:1 to 12:1 to 11:1, but once you start getting down to the 9:1 ratio you can actually start seeing temps start rising again.

So once again we have to find the correct balance. Lucky for us, people have spent the past 80 years or so, studying optimum AFR’s for particular engine loads. As a general consensus, our magic range just so happens to be the 12:8:1 - 13:4:1 range.

So there you have it: AFRs explained!

Recap:
1) High AFR under high load (e.g. WOT) = increased cylinder pressure/temperature
2) Increased cylinder pressure/temperature = increased probability of detonation
3) Decreasing AFR (running rich) = decreased cylinder pressure/temperatures (optimizing your ability to control the burn without detonation)
4) Optimized burn for specific engine load (e.g., WOT) = maximum power delivery for a given load

[spooph]

Awesome info, thanks Gary!

[randomwalk101]

Kogary,
Is your LM-2 weatherproof?
Also, generally, these needs to be around 600 or so to operate properly. Which means it sucks juice from your bike a lot. Does it drain battery much as you can see Gary?

[kogary]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

Kogary,
Is your LM-2 weatherproof?
Also, generally, these needs to be around 600 or so to operate properly. Which means it sucks juice from your bike a lot. Does it drain battery much as you can see Gary?

No, the LM-2 is not weather proof. I usually hook everything up, ride around for a bit while data-logging cruising and WOT pulls. I either keep the unit in a see through riding bag that can attach to the bikes tail, or use magnets to attach to the tank (rarely use this method as I like to keep my eyes on the road). Then I look through the logs to decide what needs to be adjusted. I don't like trying to tune real-time since it takes attention away from the road.

The sensor is a heated sensor and usually is completely heated within 20 seconds (you let it heat before turning the bike on). The LM-2 is designed to work off a 12V system, with motorcycle charging systemsb kept in mind. I have noticed no ill effect on the battery while using this setup. I notice a slight voltage drop when I put my high beam on, but nothing with the LM-2, lol.

[randomwalk101]

Cool. Ordered the AEM wide band...should be here Thursday. Still waiting on my faceplate from Indo though...I'm guessing another 2 weeks?
Anyhow, the AEM is not waterproof so I will use clear silicon at the gaps/bezel to hopefully seal it.

[randomwalk101]

Apparently I was wrong. The o2 sensor doesn't obstruct exhaust flow much if welded as such..I'll pull out my mig welder and will try to weld the bung in...hopefully I won't run my exhaust