June 5th, 2016, 08:20 PM | #1 |
The Violet Vixen
Name: Yakaru
Location: Issaquah, WA & Las Vegas, NV
Join Date: Jun 2012 Motorcycle(s): Perigee (250), Hotaru (250), Saturn (300), Pearl (300), Zero (S1000RR), Chibi (Z125), Xellos ('18 HP4R) Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '16
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Completed my second track day
So two weeks after my first, I've now completed my second track day. I was able to get video of all the sessions this time around, so it'll take me some time to edit things together and get some of them up on YouTube.
I'd love to hear feedback on my progress once they're up, it'd be good to compare that to what I wrote in my riding journal between sessions. I still feel pretty slow, but I think I'm making progress. What went wrong? I forgot a few items again this time. I left most of my track gear in the car between the last time out and this, which led to not doing as thorough an inventory as I should have. I realized when I got to the track that I took my boots and socks off after I got back in the house, which meant that I didn't have my riding socks. I did, however, have a mismatched pair that I made due with. I also left my still shot camera since I didn't use it at all last time, but ended up missing some great photo ops. Oh well, live and learn. Lots of solid people that I was able to give some of my motorcycle cards to though, which was pretty fun. Got a lot of compliments on my Ninja. And I'm getting close to finally rubbing out my chicken strips too. :P |
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June 5th, 2016, 08:29 PM | #2 |
Daily Ninjette rider
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June 5th, 2016, 08:54 PM | #3 |
n00bie to wannabie
Name: Bill
Location: St Ives, BC (Shuswap Lake)
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What tire pressure are you running? It looks like you should add a pound or two. Can you get a little more tire in the picture? Front tire too if possible.
I see the addiction has taken a firm hold! Now get your partner out there too!
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June 5th, 2016, 09:00 PM | #4 |
The Violet Vixen
Name: Yakaru
Location: Issaquah, WA & Las Vegas, NV
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31 in the rear and 29 in the front. Diablo 2s at stock rim size for the 300. I'll grab some more tomorrow when there's more light.
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June 6th, 2016, 07:10 PM | #5 |
The Violet Vixen
Name: Yakaru
Location: Issaquah, WA & Las Vegas, NV
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Here are some more tire photos for you while the videos continue to process.
Figuring out a good way to splice these clips together is a challenge; for this track day I think I'll just do a grid but will have to come up with some better techniques moving forward. |
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June 6th, 2016, 09:43 PM | #6 |
The Violet Vixen
Name: Yakaru
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Okay Videos are starting to export. We'll start with Session 1, then I'll jump to Session 4 (Sessions 2 and 3 were mostly focusing on the same fundamentals I was working on in Session 1, Session 4 is where I feel I started to get some actual improvements)
For reference, my session from 2 weeks ago:
Link to original page on YouTube. |
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June 7th, 2016, 01:04 AM | #7 |
The Violet Vixen
Name: Yakaru
Location: Issaquah, WA & Las Vegas, NV
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And here's session 4 before I head off to bed!
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June 7th, 2016, 02:27 AM | #8 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: al
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Are you pulling in the clutch and essentially coasting through the turn on the slow corners? Could you rev match downshift during braking? What about downshifting (while engine braking a bit) after braking but right before turning?
Last futzed with by algs26; June 7th, 2016 at 01:52 PM. Reason: for clarity |
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June 7th, 2016, 03:39 AM | #9 |
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June 7th, 2016, 04:07 AM | #10 |
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Agreed with algs26. Coasting feels natural at first, but the bike really doesn't want to do that. Ideally you're either on the brakes or on the gas (at least maintenance throttle), never coasting.
Body position... CAVEAT... I'm not that fast and I'm still working on all of this stuff. More experienced/faster riders will have other things to say and please do correct me if any of the following is wrong. Good that you're working on this so soon. Exaggerate what you're doing. It probably feels like you're hanging off a lot but you really aren't. Try sliding back in the seat a bit to get your upper body lower... about a fist distance between your crotch and the tank. Use reference points on the bike, like outside forearm on the tank, gas cap under your armpit, chin pointing at the end of the clip-on. It REALLY helps to consciously relax into the bike. I don't like Jorge that much, but he has great upper body position... look at how he's in contact with the bike. His footage starts at 0:55.
Link to original page on YouTube.
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June 7th, 2016, 05:41 AM | #11 | |
The Violet Vixen
Name: Yakaru
Location: Issaquah, WA & Las Vegas, NV
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Thanks for the feedback so far.
Re: Coasting -- wasn't a focus for this track day but I'm aware of the pattern (see my thread here: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256140 -- this falls under priority 5) Quote:
Re: Body position -- at this point in the day I was 100% following my coach's (Misti) advice from CSS Las Vegas earlier this year where she had me gripping the tank with both legs and only moving my torso over. She's welcome to chime in but I've got a bad tendency to get quite crossed up and I'm working on it in stages. Keep watching the next sessions and tell me if it gets better as I change things in sessions 5 6 and 7. |
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June 7th, 2016, 06:06 AM | #12 |
The Violet Vixen
Name: Yakaru
Location: Issaquah, WA & Las Vegas, NV
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June 7th, 2016, 08:27 AM | #13 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
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I think you are making great progress. I only got a few things but they will most likely NOT be in your notes.
I was never so glad to see you blow by the traffic on the front straight (session 1 vid). Be mindful when in traffic that your still ride YOUR line, use YOUR markers and the passes should come a bit easier. I see that you're riding very conservatively and that is ok, but when you decide to make a pass try to predict intersecting lines. Check your video of session 5 @ 12:55-12:56. Is that as close as you wanted? I am not sure of the passing rules, but this is how coaches catch riders getting too close. ie... it's a safety concern and not a fun way to make friends. I really liked some of your transitions through the chicanes before the front straight. They get pretty smooth as your session progresses. How did you feel about the mid-corner steering corrections this trip vs you previous trip?
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School |
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June 7th, 2016, 08:40 AM | #14 |
The Violet Vixen
Name: Yakaru
Location: Issaquah, WA & Las Vegas, NV
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12:55 was definitely closer than I intended, that's in a turn that still catches me off guard a bit -- I always expect it to be sharper than it actually is and realize I'm going to the inside too fast. Diving in deeper before turning in has helped this for the most part but a mistake for sure.
Midcorner corrections feel a bit better, though there are still some funky points I'm working out. Track map for handy reference: http://ridgemotorsportspark.com/track-info/track-map/ In particular between 4/5 and the two apexes of 8 can sometimes get a bit hairy. And 11 is still challenging me to find a line I like through it. I think my favorite/best turn is 12. |
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June 7th, 2016, 09:06 AM | #15 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
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What does that tell ya? How would you go about knowing what to expect out of the corner before you get there?
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School |
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June 7th, 2016, 09:42 AM | #16 |
The Violet Vixen
Name: Yakaru
Location: Issaquah, WA & Las Vegas, NV
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Hmm I feel like I'm missing something obvious but probably a better wide view and better reference points in the turn (aside: it's not a double apex unless you force it, but it does seem to work best with two distinct turning inputs -- I could be wrong about that though). Figuring out the right amount of steering input is definitely something I don't have a technique for, I tend to just go 'off instinct'.
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June 7th, 2016, 09:42 AM | #17 |
n00bie to wannabie
Name: Bill
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Here's a great clip, Yakaru from Dave Moss that describes the wear pattern on your tire! Not the air pressure though! But it does show what your tires should look like on the surface & edges.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxCDsRm3b28&sns=em
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June 7th, 2016, 09:47 AM | #18 | |
The Violet Vixen
Name: Yakaru
Location: Issaquah, WA & Las Vegas, NV
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Quote:
Two comments: First, I definitely need to work on that. My instincts are to completely cut throttle when I'm turning and then roll on. I realize 'roll on' doesn't mean you have to start from 0% but it'll definitely be a paradigm shift to get over. I'll see if there's a good session to integrate that on for my next session set. Second, I'm already on the books to get a full suspension swap -- Ohlins cartridges and rear shock. The parts are ordered and just waiting for them to arrive at the shop. That should also help I suspect. |
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June 7th, 2016, 10:04 AM | #19 | |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
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Quote:
Two more things about that corner and many other corners as it relates to entries. Do you feel you can set up (get your bumm off) earlier, or are you busy doing other things? Do you think taking care of as many corner set up tasks earlier will allow you more time to work the corner ahead of time? Do you remember any CSS drills that addressed getting information about the turn before committing to it?
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School |
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June 7th, 2016, 10:29 AM | #20 | |
The Violet Vixen
Name: Yakaru
Location: Issaquah, WA & Las Vegas, NV
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Quote:
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June 7th, 2016, 10:30 AM | #21 | |
n00bie to wannabie
Name: Bill
Location: St Ives, BC (Shuswap Lake)
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But; you are at the beginnings of your track adventures. Your priorities are to develop the riding skills first which is a huge amount of data to absorb and effectively apply. Suspension etc is secondary for now but will reap huge rewards when the time comes. It's great to be able to watch your development!
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June 7th, 2016, 12:30 PM | #22 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
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From that video though... Not really diggin' brake->gas->turn advice. I don't care if it's from Mr. Moss or not. It goes against what Yakaru has been working on from CSS for a while now. The little bit of tire added wear is not worth the subtraction of the safety factor AND... instills a bad habit when she throws a leg over a more powerful bike. ijs... Now, the part about getting on the throttle too slowly is awesome and will most likely remove the clear spots on the tire by itself.
I don't see anything wrong with your tires Yakaru. They are within the psi ranges I would ride on them myself and other racers. Now a 250/300 (or any other lightweight) will "pick up" rubber laid down by other riders in the faster groups, especially on the front. In the Novice group, it is common for the rear to pick up rubber as well. That is what I see when I look at the pics of your tires. Where to they throw the checkers at that track? I ask because, if you go "off pace" when you see the checkers, for any real length of track or through sharp corners (or like those chicanes) Your gunna pic up some rubber before getting back to your paddock spot. Hell, sometimes you don't even have to be off pace that much, when chone and I rode after the nascar races, we left with more rubber on our tires than when we arrived. I still have the large ball of rubber on my desk.
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June 7th, 2016, 12:38 PM | #23 |
n00bie to wannabie
Name: Bill
Location: St Ives, BC (Shuswap Lake)
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@Yakaru; I defer to Chris as he has a Hell of a lot more experience than I on track and with students! As to the video: I am guilty of target fixation! Lol! The part that caught my attention was the throttle comment regarding the clear patches on the tread.
By the looks of your tires; you may have to shave them rather than replace them!
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The Smart Money: #1 - ATGATT, #2 - Training (machine skills and survival skills), #3 - The bike; whatever floats yer boat with the money you have left over |
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June 7th, 2016, 02:26 PM | #24 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
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It's all good Bill, I am approaching 1k track days (only 3 crashes!!!!). I am hella proud of what my brain has forced my body to accomplish. Just trying to share, not be bigger than anyone else. "I" am also human and miss stuff, please continue to do your thang... 2nd opinions are a great check and balance
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School |
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June 7th, 2016, 02:48 PM | #25 |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot.
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The carousel at the Ridge can be done in one turn, double apex, once you figure the line out. You touch early, go out and come back in. In that corner, you manage your line with slight throttle inputs rather than steering inputs.
I was able to get some race footage the last time I was there so have a look! Keep in mind that I'm on a vintage bike but have almost identical horsepower, times and lines as the Ninja 250's. Of course, YMMV but I hope it helps!
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June 7th, 2016, 03:45 PM | #26 | |
n00bie to wannabie
Name: Bill
Location: St Ives, BC (Shuswap Lake)
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Quote:
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The Smart Money: #1 - ATGATT, #2 - Training (machine skills and survival skills), #3 - The bike; whatever floats yer boat with the money you have left over |
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June 7th, 2016, 04:04 PM | #27 |
The Violet Vixen
Name: Yakaru
Location: Issaquah, WA & Las Vegas, NV
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RacinNinja: I've seen a few different people propose a few different lines around the Carousel. Often depending on the size of the bike you're on. I've seen people say to treat it as two turns, to treat it as one extremely long turn, double apexing. I'm trying to feel it out to find a line I like most.
CSmith: I definitely agree getting on the gas in a 'roll on' sense before the turn sounded like horrible advice -- adding throttle + lean at the same time = disaster. But is there value in 'starting' a turn at less than idle throttle? I'm still working the physics and differences over in my head. They throw the checkers at every single turn station and as soon as you see any you're supposed to come in; so it varies. |
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June 7th, 2016, 04:13 PM | #28 | |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
The other was a new line at the bottom of the Complex in turns 14-15-16. Double up 14-15 too. Of course, do what you're comfortable with. It took me all of last year to change and apply what he was telling me. I didn't understand it for a long time.
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June 7th, 2016, 04:19 PM | #29 | |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
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Quote:
Yes, there is some value in turning with less idle throttle, we do it quite often on some turns where turning with WOT or a slight roll off is within risk acceptable ranges. And let's be real here, if your bike setup is so bad that you need throttle at the turn in point, then I guess as "an experience rider" you are able to decide for yourself... turn while on the gas and manage it, go off pace or just go home. People are amazing creatures and make things work on the fly, it's just how it is. After all, tracks are supposed to challenge their drivers/riders, just not sure a CSS coach would have presented it the way Dave did.
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School |
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June 7th, 2016, 08:50 PM | #30 |
The Violet Vixen
Name: Yakaru
Location: Issaquah, WA & Las Vegas, NV
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MOTM - Jun '16
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Here's Session 6. I think there are some improvements here, though there are a few places I feel I might be crossing myself up again. Would love thoughts and feedback.
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June 7th, 2016, 09:11 PM | #31 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
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When you get to focusing on your hip flick, your gunna say... been doing that for a long time now You had a great time and went home shinny side up and smiling... dat's where it's at.
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School |
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June 8th, 2016, 04:13 AM | #32 | |
Cat herder
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Quote:
For reference, look at MotoGP videos.
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I am NOT an adrenaline junkie, I'm a skill junkie. - csmith12 Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est. Heri historia. Cras mysterium. Hodie donum est. Carpe diem. |
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June 8th, 2016, 05:43 PM | #33 |
The Violet Vixen
Name: Yakaru
Location: Issaquah, WA & Las Vegas, NV
Join Date: Jun 2012 Motorcycle(s): Perigee (250), Hotaru (250), Saturn (300), Pearl (300), Zero (S1000RR), Chibi (Z125), Xellos ('18 HP4R) Posts: A lot.
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Final session!
Link to original page on YouTube. |
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June 8th, 2016, 06:38 PM | #34 |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot.
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Why do you coast so much? Especially don't coast into a corner leaned over! Letting the clutch out leaned can make your rear tire lose traction. This is a bad habit you should try to break as soon as possible. The only time the clutch should be pulled is when you are shifting gears. No coasting!
Coming down the Ridge Complex...Top turn in looks OK. The right hander at the bottom, ride the middle of the patch. Literally, the dead center. Then, after you've passed the patch aim for the curb on the left. Apex there, go a little wide and bring it back in so you apex again at the middle of the second left hand curb. This will allow you to have a much straighter line onto the straightaway. Are you going to be at any of the Motovixens days in June? If so, you're more than welcome to pit with the wife and I. She'll be on her Ninja and I'll be pit bitch.
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June 8th, 2016, 09:29 PM | #35 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: al
Location: NorCal
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Let me ask in a different way.
Why are you downshifting at the end of the front straight? What's different about the two slower corners that makes you treat them differently? |
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June 8th, 2016, 09:43 PM | #36 | ||||
The Violet Vixen
Name: Yakaru
Location: Issaquah, WA & Las Vegas, NV
Join Date: Jun 2012 Motorcycle(s): Perigee (250), Hotaru (250), Saturn (300), Pearl (300), Zero (S1000RR), Chibi (Z125), Xellos ('18 HP4R) Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '16
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Quote:
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June 8th, 2016, 10:18 PM | #37 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: al
Location: NorCal
Join Date: Aug 2012 Motorcycle(s): ex300, gave up looking for a 250 Posts: 435
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Sorry I meant what's the difference between the end of the front straight and the two slow corners? Why are you downshifting through the gears in one and downshifting while holding the clutch in in the other?
Last futzed with by algs26; June 9th, 2016 at 06:22 AM. Reason: Omission |
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June 8th, 2016, 10:24 PM | #38 | |
The Violet Vixen
Name: Yakaru
Location: Issaquah, WA & Las Vegas, NV
Join Date: Jun 2012 Motorcycle(s): Perigee (250), Hotaru (250), Saturn (300), Pearl (300), Zero (S1000RR), Chibi (Z125), Xellos ('18 HP4R) Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '16
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Quote:
In the case of 11 it's because I've fubared it off-road twice there at CSS; I've never had a particularly bad experience in 13 but have seen a lot of other people screw it up pretty badly though. Ironically 12, 14, and 15 are my favorite turns on the whole track. |
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June 9th, 2016, 04:56 AM | #39 |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
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Just let your clutch out before you lean over for the corner while you're still upright. That's a good place to start.
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Goin' fast on slow bikes! |
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June 9th, 2016, 05:47 AM | #40 |
Cat herder
Name: Gort
Location: A secret lair which, being secret, has an undisclosed location
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): Aprilia RS660 Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 6
MOTM - Jul '18, Nov '16, Aug '14, May '13
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Okay, so using the tried-and-true "leading question" method (something they must teach CSS instructors... notice how both Misti and Chris use it all the time?)...
As you're letting the clutch out, does the bike feel more settled or less settled? Does a bike that's unsettled make you feel more confident or less confident? Will getting into gear earlier and letting the clutch out and allowing the chassis to settle BEFORE you start your turn take away that unsettled feeling? Will taking away that unsettled feeling make you feel more confident? Will slowing down enough to smoothly engage that lower gear BEFORE you get to your tip in point make the transition smoother or less smooth? Remember what they said about charging turns? When you let the clutch out, you are in effect adding an extra braking input (engine braking) that makes the chassis pitch forward. Then as you get on the gas, you're shifting the weight back again. Rocking horse. Here's one more thing to think about: When you're downshifting for the turn after a long, fast straight, coasting and letting the clutch out in a much lower gear can make things feel pretty squirrely because of engine braking (you've let the engine spool down and now it has to rev up again). I'm sure you've experienced this. Getting into gear earlier and avoiding coasting can go a long way to eliminating this, but it can still screw you up somewhat. If that's a problem that's messing up your entry, try going to one gear higher than you had been. There will be less engine braking so the transition will be smoother. I used this to good effect at my last track weekend. The track (Palmer) has a long straight with what should be a second-gear complex after it... a moderate-speed left, then a temporary chicane designed to slow riders down before they smear themselves all over a giant rock wall. I kept on messing it up because the transition from high speed down to a slow, second-gear corner was too drastic for my lousy bike handling skills to manage smoothly. When I changed strategy and went to third instead of second, the corner was MUCH easier to deal with. The tradeoff, of course, is power through the corner because the bike may not be in the ideal gear. But if there's a choice between confidence and nailing the corner vs. an extra few tenths of a second, I'll pick confidence every time. This is a track day, not a race. As you get faster and become the Track Day Warrior Queen you know you're destined to be, you can turn your attention to lap times.
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I am NOT an adrenaline junkie, I'm a skill junkie. - csmith12 Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est. Heri historia. Cras mysterium. Hodie donum est. Carpe diem. |
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