Completed my second track day

[Yakaru]

So two weeks after my first, I've now completed my second track day. I was able to get video of all the sessions this time around, so it'll take me some time to edit things together and get some of them up on YouTube.

I'd love to hear feedback on my progress once they're up, it'd be good to compare that to what I wrote in my riding journal between sessions.

I still feel pretty slow, but I think I'm making progress.


What went wrong?

I forgot a few items again this time. I left most of my track gear in the car between the last time out and this, which led to not doing as thorough an inventory as I should have. I realized when I got to the track that I took my boots and socks off after I got back in the house, which meant that I didn't have my riding socks. I did, however, have a mismatched pair that I made due with. I also left my still shot camera since I didn't use it at all last time, but ended up missing some great photo ops. Oh well, live and learn. Lots of solid people that I was able to give some of my motorcycle cards to though, which was pretty fun. Got a lot of compliments on my Ninja.

And I'm getting close to finally rubbing out my chicken strips too. :P

[Motofool]

[SLOWn60]

What tire pressure are you running? It looks like you should add a pound or two. Can you get a little more tire in the picture? Front tire too if possible.
I see the addiction has taken a firm hold! Now get your partner out there too!

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

What tire pressure are you running? It looks like you should add a pound or two. Can you get a little more tire in the picture? Front tire too if possible.
I see the addiction has taken a firm hold! Now get your partner out there too!

31 in the rear and 29 in the front. Diablo 2s at stock rim size for the 300. I'll grab some more tomorrow when there's more light.

[Yakaru]

Here are some more tire photos for you while the videos continue to process.

Figuring out a good way to splice these clips together is a challenge; for this track day I think I'll just do a grid but will have to come up with some better techniques moving forward.

[Yakaru]

Okay Videos are starting to export. We'll start with Session 1, then I'll jump to Session 4 (Sessions 2 and 3 were mostly focusing on the same fundamentals I was working on in Session 1, Session 4 is where I feel I started to get some actual improvements)

For reference, my session from 2 weeks ago:

Link to original page on YouTube.

And now session 1 from June 5:

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Yakaru]

And here's session 4 before I head off to bed!

Link to original page on YouTube.

[algs26]

Are you pulling in the clutch and essentially coasting through the turn on the slow corners? Could you rev match downshift during braking? What about downshifting (while engine braking a bit) after braking but right before turning?

[AwDang]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

31 in the rear and 29 in the front.

That seems inverse from what I know to be normal tire pressures.

[adouglas]

Agreed with algs26. Coasting feels natural at first, but the bike really doesn't want to do that. Ideally you're either on the brakes or on the gas (at least maintenance throttle), never coasting.

Body position... CAVEAT... I'm not that fast and I'm still working on all of this stuff. More experienced/faster riders will have other things to say and please do correct me if any of the following is wrong.

Good that you're working on this so soon. Exaggerate what you're doing. It probably feels like you're hanging off a lot but you really aren't. Try sliding back in the seat a bit to get your upper body lower... about a fist distance between your crotch and the tank. Use reference points on the bike, like outside forearm on the tank, gas cap under your armpit, chin pointing at the end of the clip-on. It REALLY helps to consciously relax into the bike.

I don't like Jorge that much, but he has great upper body position... look at how he's in contact with the bike. His footage starts at 0:55.

Link to original page on YouTube.



Note a few things about this photo:

- Outside arm is on the tank.
- Chin pointed at knuckles.
- Spine is parallel to centerline of the bike (not crossed-up)
- Body is rotated so that the center of his chest is pointing at the long axis of the bike (vs at the ground). He's "hugging" the bike and his inside shoulder is low. To do this you have to RELAX and not hold yourself up with your inside arm. Consciously drop the shoulder.

None of this will make a lot of sense until you start going faster. It's like letting your bike drift out to the edge of the road on exit... if you're riding so slowly that the bike doesn't want to do that on its own, it makes no sense. Higher speeds mean higher forces.

You'll find that as you get your upper body off the bike more, you'll have to grip the clip on differently, more like a screwdriver. That's how I can tell your upper body really isn't off center that much... your hands don't move.

Good that you're putting your toes on the peg. But when you get off to stick your knee out, you'll find that keeping your foot pointed forward is not letting you rotate your leg. Try rotating your foot heel-in, toe on the end of the peg and heel hard up against the heel guard (or swing arm, depending on your rearsets). That lets you get your leg out.

[Yakaru]

Thanks for the feedback so far.
Re: Coasting -- wasn't a focus for this track day but I'm aware of the pattern (see my thread here: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256140 -- this falls under priority 5)

Sure. Draft form, in roughly priority order:

1. Anything Misti notices that takes precedence
2. Stop doing a combination lean and roll on. quickturn then throttle after.
3. Stop relying on the turn point markers for my reference points, learn to find and use reference points that exist on a regular day
4. Body Positioning in general
5. Up the throttle where possible, especially stop letting myself get 'lost' on sections of the track causing me to throttle down. (e.g. at the Ridge I frequently estimate the length of the front straightaway to be shorter than it is, so I roll off and engine brake early into turn 1, instead of waiting for a reference point to tell me the turn is some distance away and being willing to use the brakes)

Re: Tire pressure -- I was largely basing this off the default PSI which, to my recollection, are 28f/32r

Re: Body position -- at this point in the day I was 100% following my coach's (Misti) advice from CSS Las Vegas earlier this year where she had me gripping the tank with both legs and only moving my torso over. She's welcome to chime in but I've got a bad tendency to get quite crossed up and I'm working on it in stages. Keep watching the next sessions and tell me if it gets better as I change things in sessions 5 6 and 7.

[Yakaru]

Here's session 5!

Link to original page on YouTube.

[csmith12]

I think you are making great progress. I only got a few things but they will most likely NOT be in your notes.

I was never so glad to see you blow by the traffic on the front straight (session 1 vid).
Be mindful when in traffic that your still ride YOUR line, use YOUR markers and the passes should come a bit easier.
I see that you're riding very conservatively and that is ok, but when you decide to make a pass try to predict intersecting lines. Check your video of session 5 @ 12:55-12:56. Is that as close as you wanted? I am not sure of the passing rules, but this is how coaches catch riders getting too close. ie... it's a safety concern and not a fun way to make friends.

I really liked some of your transitions through the chicanes before the front straight. They get pretty smooth as your session progresses.

How did you feel about the mid-corner steering corrections this trip vs you previous trip?

[Yakaru]

12:55 was definitely closer than I intended, that's in a turn that still catches me off guard a bit -- I always expect it to be sharper than it actually is and realize I'm going to the inside too fast. Diving in deeper before turning in has helped this for the most part but a mistake for sure.

Midcorner corrections feel a bit better, though there are still some funky points I'm working out.

Track map for handy reference: http://ridgemotorsportspark.com/track-info/track-map/

In particular between 4/5 and the two apexes of 8 can sometimes get a bit hairy. And 11 is still challenging me to find a line I like through it. I think my favorite/best turn is 12.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

12:55 was definitely closer than I intended, that's in a turn that still catches me off guard a bit -- I always expect it to be sharper than it actually is and realize I'm going to the inside too fast.

What does that tell ya? How would you go about knowing what to expect out of the corner before you get there?

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by csmith12

What does that tell ya? How would you go about knowing what to expect out of the corner before you get there?

Hmm I feel like I'm missing something obvious but probably a better wide view and better reference points in the turn (aside: it's not a double apex unless you force it, but it does seem to work best with two distinct turning inputs -- I could be wrong about that though). Figuring out the right amount of steering input is definitely something I don't have a technique for, I tend to just go 'off instinct'.

[SLOWn60]

Here's a great clip, Yakaru from Dave Moss that describes the wear pattern on your tire! Not the air pressure though! But it does show what your tires should look like on the surface & edges.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxCDsRm3b28&sns=em

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

Here's a great clip, Yakaru from Dave Moss that describes the wear pattern on your tire! Not the air pressure though! But it does show what your tires should look like on the surface & edges.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxCDsRm3b28&sns=em

Excellent link SLOWn60! Thanks!

Two comments:

First, I definitely need to work on that. My instincts are to completely cut throttle when I'm turning and then roll on. I realize 'roll on' doesn't mean you have to start from 0% but it'll definitely be a paradigm shift to get over. I'll see if there's a good session to integrate that on for my next session set.

Second, I'm already on the books to get a full suspension swap -- Ohlins cartridges and rear shock. The parts are ordered and just waiting for them to arrive at the shop. That should also help I suspect.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

Hmm I feel like I'm missing something obvious but probably a better wide view and better reference points in the turn (aside: it's not a double apex unless you force it, but it does seem to work best with two distinct turning inputs -- I could be wrong about that though). Figuring out the right amount of steering input is definitely something I don't have a technique for, I tend to just go 'off instinct'.

Excellent! I have the opinion that once you have worked out the track enough to have solid reference points your steering will also improve as a result of that knowledge. Don't forget to judge those points and lines based on the throttle control rule. Once you have that down, you can focus more on turning on purpose (quickturn) vs instinct. Kinda like you did in those chicanes.

Two more things about that corner and many other corners as it relates to entries. Do you feel you can set up (get your bumm off) earlier, or are you busy doing other things? Do you think taking care of as many corner set up tasks earlier will allow you more time to work the corner ahead of time? Do you remember any CSS drills that addressed getting information about the turn before committing to it?

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Excellent! I have the opinion that once you have worked out the track enough to have solid reference points your steering will also improve as a result of that knowledge. Don't forget to judge those points and lines based on the throttle control rule. Once you have that down, you can focus more on turning on purpose (quickturn) vs instinct. Kinda like you did in those chicanes.

Two more things about that corner and many other corners as it relates to entries. Do you feel you can set up (get your bumm off) earlier, or are you busy doing other things? Do you think taking care of as many corner set up tasks earlier will allow you more time to work the corner ahead of time? Do you remember any CSS drills that addressed getting information about the turn before committing to it?

I can definitely get set up earlier, it's a bad habit of taking the time to relax and just pin it instead of keeping my head in the game. Definitely a few CSS drills that could work into that. Two-step, Reference points, wide view are all applicable. In a way the change lines drill could provide information for future circuits as well.

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

Excellent link SLOWn60! Thanks!

Two comments:

First, I definitely need to work on that. My instincts are to completely cut throttle when I'm turning and then roll on. I realize 'roll on' doesn't mean you have to start from 0% but it'll definitely be a paradigm shift to get over. I'll see if there's a good session to integrate that on for my next session set.

Second, I'm already on the books to get a full suspension swap -- Ohlins cartridges and rear shock. The parts are ordered and just waiting for them to arrive at the shop. That should also help I suspect.

The suspension goodies are great but you (or your suspension person) needs to know what to adjust. Tire wear tells all! I profess no deep knowledge but between studying Traxxion Dynamics basic setup video (on YouTube and about 90 minutes) and Dave moss's series of videos; I've been able to tweak my suspension so I have perfect wear! Now I just need to buy youth & skill!
But; you are at the beginnings of your track adventures. Your priorities are to develop the riding skills first which is a huge amount of data to absorb and effectively apply. Suspension etc is secondary for now but will reap huge rewards when the time comes.

It's great to be able to watch your development!

[csmith12]

From that video though... Not really diggin' brake->gas->turn advice. I don't care if it's from Mr. Moss or not. It goes against what Yakaru has been working on from CSS for a while now. The little bit of tire added wear is not worth the subtraction of the safety factor AND... instills a bad habit when she throws a leg over a more powerful bike. ijs... Now, the part about getting on the throttle too slowly is awesome and will most likely remove the clear spots on the tire by itself.

I don't see anything wrong with your tires Yakaru. They are within the psi ranges I would ride on them myself and other racers. Now a 250/300 (or any other lightweight) will "pick up" rubber laid down by other riders in the faster groups, especially on the front. In the Novice group, it is common for the rear to pick up rubber as well. That is what I see when I look at the pics of your tires.

Where to they throw the checkers at that track? I ask because, if you go "off pace" when you see the checkers, for any real length of track or through sharp corners (or like those chicanes) Your gunna pic up some rubber before getting back to your paddock spot. Hell, sometimes you don't even have to be off pace that much, when chone and I rode after the nascar races, we left with more rubber on our tires than when we arrived. I still have the large ball of rubber on my desk.

[SLOWn60]

@Yakaru; I defer to Chris as he has a Hell of a lot more experience than I on track and with students! As to the video: I am guilty of target fixation! Lol! The part that caught my attention was the throttle comment regarding the clear patches on the tread.
By the looks of your tires; you may have to shave them rather than replace them!

[csmith12]

It's all good Bill, I am approaching 1k track days (only 3 crashes!!!!). I am hella proud of what my brain has forced my body to accomplish. Just trying to share, not be bigger than anyone else. "I" am also human and miss stuff, please continue to do your thang... 2nd opinions are a great check and balance

[RacinNinja]

The carousel at the Ridge can be done in one turn, double apex, once you figure the line out. You touch early, go out and come back in. In that corner, you manage your line with slight throttle inputs rather than steering inputs.

I was able to get some race footage the last time I was there so have a look! Keep in mind that I'm on a vintage bike but have almost identical horsepower, times and lines as the Ninja 250's. Of course, YMMV but I hope it helps!

Link to original page on YouTube.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by csmith12

It's all good Bill, I am approaching 1k track days (only 3 crashes!!!!). I am hella proud of what my brain has forced my body to accomplish. Just trying to share, not be bigger than anyone else. "I" am also human and miss stuff, please continue to do your thang... 2nd opinions are a great check and balance

Trust me Chris; there's no way you will ever be bigger than me!

[Yakaru]

RacinNinja: I've seen a few different people propose a few different lines around the Carousel. Often depending on the size of the bike you're on. I've seen people say to treat it as two turns, to treat it as one extremely long turn, double apexing. I'm trying to feel it out to find a line I like most.

CSmith: I definitely agree getting on the gas in a 'roll on' sense before the turn sounded like horrible advice -- adding throttle + lean at the same time = disaster. But is there value in 'starting' a turn at less than idle throttle? I'm still working the physics and differences over in my head.

They throw the checkers at every single turn station and as soon as you see any you're supposed to come in; so it varies.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

RacinNinja: I've seen a few different people propose a few different lines around the Carousel. Often depending on the size of the bike you're on. I've seen people say to treat it as two turns, to treat it as one extremely long turn, double apexing. I'm trying to feel it out to find a line I like most.

CSmith: I definitely agree getting on the gas in a 'roll on' sense before the turn sounded like horrible advice -- adding throttle + lean at the same time = disaster. But is there value in 'starting' a turn at less than idle throttle? I'm still working the physics and differences over in my head.

They throw the checkers at every single turn station and as soon as you see any you're supposed to come in; so it varies.

FWIW, I dropped 5 seconds a lap there my first race by simply applying the lines my mentor told me to take. One, long, double apex in the carousel was one of them.

The other was a new line at the bottom of the Complex in turns 14-15-16. Double up 14-15 too.

Of course, do what you're comfortable with. It took me all of last year to change and apply what he was telling me. I didn't understand it for a long time.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

CSmith: I definitely agree getting on the gas in a 'roll on' sense before the turn sounded like horrible advice -- adding throttle + lean at the same time = disaster. But is there value in 'starting' a turn at less than idle throttle? I'm still working the physics and differences over in my head.

They throw the checkers at every single turn station and as soon as you see any you're supposed to come in; so it varies.

Gotcha on the checkers, so your video will tell you if you believe you picked up some rubber on the way to hot pit.

Yes, there is some value in turning with less idle throttle, we do it quite often on some turns where turning with WOT or a slight roll off is within risk acceptable ranges. And let's be real here, if your bike setup is so bad that you need throttle at the turn in point, then I guess as "an experience rider" you are able to decide for yourself... turn while on the gas and manage it, go off pace or just go home. People are amazing creatures and make things work on the fly, it's just how it is. After all, tracks are supposed to challenge their drivers/riders, just not sure a CSS coach would have presented it the way Dave did.

[Yakaru]

Here's Session 6. I think there are some improvements here, though there are a few places I feel I might be crossing myself up again. Would love thoughts and feedback.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[csmith12]

When you get to focusing on your hip flick, your gunna say... been doing that for a long time now
You had a great time and went home shinny side up and smiling... dat's where it's at.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

Here's Session 6. I think there are some improvements here, though there are a few places I feel I might be crossing myself up again. Would love thoughts and feedback.

Just a note that the butt cam angle is very misleading. Makes you look crossed-up when you aren't.

For reference, look at MotoGP videos.

[Yakaru]

Final session!

Link to original page on YouTube.

Feedback welcome. Did I improve? What should I work on next time?

HUGE screw up at ~5:45 -- went in too early and just completely barfed my lines. Otherwise a good way to end the day I think, at least for a slow poke like me.

[RacinNinja]

Why do you coast so much? Especially don't coast into a corner leaned over! Letting the clutch out leaned can make your rear tire lose traction. This is a bad habit you should try to break as soon as possible. The only time the clutch should be pulled is when you are shifting gears. No coasting!

Coming down the Ridge Complex...Top turn in looks OK. The right hander at the bottom, ride the middle of the patch. Literally, the dead center. Then, after you've passed the patch aim for the curb on the left. Apex there, go a little wide and bring it back in so you apex again at the middle of the second left hand curb. This will allow you to have a much straighter line onto the straightaway.

Are you going to be at any of the Motovixens days in June? If so, you're more than welcome to pit with the wife and I. She'll be on her Ninja and I'll be pit bitch.

[algs26]

Let me ask in a different way.

Why are you downshifting at the end of the front straight?
What's different about the two slower corners that makes you treat them differently?

[Yakaru]

Why are you downshifting at the end of the front straight?

Feedback from a number of times where I tend to let the engine RPMs fall out of the Ninja's ideal band. By downshifting at the end of the straight I ensure that I can keep it in band throughout the first set of turns.

What's different about the two slower corners that makes you treat them differently?

You mean the Thumb and the Complex? Well, they're both slow but in different ways. The thumb I try and go deeper and it's a single very sharp turn. The complex is sharp, slow and downhill but you also have to set yourself up to immediately re-turn... I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at, sorry

Why do you coast so much? Especially don't coast into a corner leaned over! Letting the clutch out leaned can make your rear tire lose traction. This is a bad habit you should try to break as soon as possible. The only time the clutch should be pulled is when you are shifting gears. No coasting!

Just how I learned to drive influencing my riding I guess; the attitude of 'on the gas or on the brakes' has never really parsed well for me, feels wasteful. I'm a pretty timid driver. I'll see about keeping an eye on my clutch hand next time out.

Are you going to be at any of the Motovixens days in June? If so, you're more than welcome to pit with the wife and I. She'll be on her Ninja and I'll be pit bitch.

No, those are mid week and I don't have the funds nor the vacation days for it. Thanks though!

[algs26]

Sorry I meant what's the difference between the end of the front straight and the two slow corners? Why are you downshifting through the gears in one and downshifting while holding the clutch in in the other?

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by algs26

Sorry I meant what's the difference between the end of the straight and the two slow corners? Why are you downshifting through the gears in one and downshifting while holding the clutch in in the other?

Ah, that makes more sense. Completely a confidence issue. I feel comfortable going off the front straight into the first set, on 11 (the thumb) in particular but to a lesser extent 13 at the top I'm less sure of my entry speed and line so I think I'm probably holding the clutch as a nervous comfort blanket.

In the case of 11 it's because I've fubared it off-road twice there at CSS; I've never had a particularly bad experience in 13 but have seen a lot of other people screw it up pretty badly though. Ironically 12, 14, and 15 are my favorite turns on the whole track.

[RacinNinja]

Just let your clutch out before you lean over for the corner while you're still upright. That's a good place to start.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

Ah, that makes more sense. Completely a confidence issue.

Okay, so using the tried-and-true "leading question" method (something they must teach CSS instructors... notice how both Misti and Chris use it all the time?)...

As you're letting the clutch out, does the bike feel more settled or less settled?

Does a bike that's unsettled make you feel more confident or less confident?

Will getting into gear earlier and letting the clutch out and allowing the chassis to settle BEFORE you start your turn take away that unsettled feeling?

Will taking away that unsettled feeling make you feel more confident?

Will slowing down enough to smoothly engage that lower gear BEFORE you get to your tip in point make the transition smoother or less smooth?

Remember what they said about charging turns?

When you let the clutch out, you are in effect adding an extra braking input (engine braking) that makes the chassis pitch forward. Then as you get on the gas, you're shifting the weight back again. Rocking horse.

Here's one more thing to think about: When you're downshifting for the turn after a long, fast straight, coasting and letting the clutch out in a much lower gear can make things feel pretty squirrely because of engine braking (you've let the engine spool down and now it has to rev up again). I'm sure you've experienced this. Getting into gear earlier and avoiding coasting can go a long way to eliminating this, but it can still screw you up somewhat.

If that's a problem that's messing up your entry, try going to one gear higher than you had been. There will be less engine braking so the transition will be smoother.

I used this to good effect at my last track weekend. The track (Palmer) has a long straight with what should be a second-gear complex after it... a moderate-speed left, then a temporary chicane designed to slow riders down before they smear themselves all over a giant rock wall. I kept on messing it up because the transition from high speed down to a slow, second-gear corner was too drastic for my lousy bike handling skills to manage smoothly.

When I changed strategy and went to third instead of second, the corner was MUCH easier to deal with.

The tradeoff, of course, is power through the corner because the bike may not be in the ideal gear. But if there's a choice between confidence and nailing the corner vs. an extra few tenths of a second, I'll pick confidence every time. This is a track day, not a race.

As you get faster and become the Track Day Warrior Queen you know you're destined to be, you can turn your attention to lap times.