What's a noob to do at the track?

[Jiggles]

I'm wondering, as a noob, what I should work on as I continue to go to track days. At my first track day I didn't work on braking or body position but did more so on entering, apexing and exiting corners (at my slow nooby speed of course).

So what should I try to work on at the upcoming TurdeyDaz which is a 2 day event? The first day I think I will do the same thing I did at chuckwalla, learn the track and work on entering apexing and exiting. But the second day I'll have a much better feel for the turns and my lines, at that point should I work on my body positioning while pretty much maintaining the lines I've established the previous day?

[CC Cowboy]

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=119536

[Jiggles]

Yea I saw that thanks

[Lychee]

I am not a track runner, but I would think a good thing to do first would be to ask an experienced rider to first follow you and then tow you. They are always keen to point out bad habits you might not be aware of.

[alex.s]

work on your drinking tolerances as well as your insults and wit

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by alex.s

work on your drinking tolerances as well as your insults and wit

lol

A rider that watches you will give you the best feedback. I personally think you should have a decent riding style (body position, throttle control) and such before going to fast. But "what is fast" is different for each rider and also comes with a huge negative, you first real on track crash will be a big one. It's not if, it's when. There is laying it down in the grass... and then there is a full blown crash.

Think first, then go ride. Just go have fun man! Plenty of time to sweat the details after about 10 or so track days.

And now that you have made the list..... go fast and take chances.

[r6boater]

Get a go pro, mount it to watch you, not the track (everybody and their brother has footage of the track). Review the footage and see where you are lacking on body position. Don't get twisted. put your head down and out from behind the windscreen.

Be smooth, speed will come as a by-product. This goes for movements of your body position and control inputs. (Set your butt where it needs to be for the next corner when you get out of the last one. It will be one less thing to do to get set up and possibly upset the bike)

Your brakes and throttle are "controls". If you are not using one or the other at any given time... you are "out-of-control"...use them always.

Pick the right lines. Watch the videos of everybody and their brother to see what the fasat lines are.


HAVE FUN and don't overthink things.

[EternalNewb]

Originally Posted by alex.s

work on your drinking tolerances as well as your insults and wit

Oh god, I'm screwed! Seriously, though, thread merge maybe? Seems like people are actually chiming in with some noteworthy commentary.

[Galaxieman]

If there are any instructor types, or control riders who offer to follow people, or lead out, I'd try and link up with them. The beginner group run by one of the AZ trackday organizations I've run with a couple of times had a really good format. A(advanced), B(intermediate), and C(novice) groups, with different passing rules for each, Most of the orgs have a similar setup, however these guys (Xcel Trackdays) use a larger number of control riders for the beginners, and have classroom sessions between the on-track sessions for C group.

Looking at the other thread, there is some good information, to which I'd add the stuff below. I'm omitting the more advanced group stuff since you've already stated you're a beginner. Assuming you can get a control rider to show you the 'standard' lines you'll gain a lot of information about the track.

First session: Slow pace, get a basic feel for the track. Which direction each corner goes, whether they are increasing, decreasing, or constant radius, and elevation changes. Just looking to get warmed up and get your head in the game.

2nd session: Moderate pace. If you can, get a control rider / instructor to show you the standard lines at that track. This is fairly important, as lines that you might develop as you increase speed will probably be wrong as you go faster. The lines will feel weird, wide, and very swoopy at lower speed, but once you get rolling they'll start to make a lot more sense. Get accustomed to WOT down the main straight(s) and what it feels like when the weight transfers forward under hard braking.

3rd session: Moderate pace. Work on setting your entry speed for each corner by adjusting your braking markers closer and closer each time. You may need to back them up once you get faster (i.e. are carrying more speed from one corner to the next), but for now work on getting the speed right and apexing at the correct point. This would be a good session to see if a control rider can follow you for a lap or two to set up for the afternoon.

By this time, if they're doing 3 groups with 20 minute sessions, you should be at a lunch break. By now you should have a pretty good feeling for the track layout (depending on the particular track and complexity), and can start 'connecting the dots' with reference points for one corner starting to lead into the next. Find your control rider from session 3 and pick their brain about what you're doing right and wrong. Specifically ask about body position, and if you can get a bike on a rearstand, get them to go over what you think you're doing, and what you might actually be doing. What you're really looking for is whether you're doing something that might be unsafe. Example: I followed a newer rider for one session at her first trackday, and she was hooking her feet on the pegs instead of being up on her toes. Beyond that her body position and lines were pretty good, but she didn't realize how her feet were placed and that she was only a couple of degrees from dragging the end of her boots, which would have been bad.

4th session: SLOW pace: In reality, this will be somewhat moderate, but you have to make sure to give yourself one session after the lunch break to get your head back on straight. Use the 'forced' slower pace to emphasize your braking markers and work very specifically on body position. Sit up / brake, get positioned, then turn in.

Rest of the day: Moderate / fast (i.e. brisk street pace). Just get more comfortable with the track as a whole.


Don't worry about being 'fast' on your first day at any track. You'll naturally get used to it, just think of it like riding your favorite twisty road 40-50 times in a row. Track riding is a great place to work on body positioning, working on various lines, and doing other 'mentally intensive' adjustments without having to worry about traffic, curbs, cops, etc. csmith12's comments in the other thread about how to work on each piece (moving braking markers, etc) are very good, and the by-session layout I blabbed about above should give you a decent framework for the 'seat time with goals'.

Since you're doing the same track 2 days in a row, assuming you're going the same direction both days, I'd just substitute the afternoon session from day 1 into the whole 2nd day. I.e. force yourself to go slow and work on body position (also helps with warming up and being stretched out) for the first session on the 2nd day, then work on the track in sections.

The last thing I'd say is something one of my motorcycle gurus told me: "Sneak up on fast." There's no reason to just go all balls out when you don't have to, especially at a trackday. Small, thoughtful adjustments over the course of a full day's worth of laps will show a HUGE difference in lap times, and you won't get all wadded up during the 1st or 2nd session. After a couple of good track sessions, you will probably find that when riding at the same physical speed on the street, you'll be operating at a much lower percentage of your personal riding potential, which means you have more margin for error, and are safer because of it.


Enjoy!

[Jiggles]

Some good info thank you! I don't think I'll be WOT down the straights yet, when I have to brake a lot before a corner its hard to tell how much to brake. At my first track day I'd brake for corners but not a whole lot and it was easier to figure out what speed I should enter the turn at. As the day went on I sped up a bit and braked a bit more but for most of the sessions I was in 4th gear.

I think I'll hold off on WOT down the straights and hard braking until maybe the second day

And yes this thread is different from the other in that its aimed towards what a new C group rider should be doing

[Firehorse]

Wow you did it! Excellent!
From one noob to another - go find the experienced riders and ask for tips/advice. Find the gal or guy with the biggest audience of noobs and join the fun.
So happy you took the leap! We want pics!

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Firehorse

Wow you did it! Excellent!
From one noob to another - go find the experienced riders and ask for tips/advice. Find the gal or guy with the biggest audience of noobs and join the fun.
So happy you took the leap! We want pics!

Well there ya go!

http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b2.../Track%20Days/

I also have a whole thread on it somewhere

[tooblekain]

There is so much stuff that can be worked on. Maybe come in with the things you want to work and focus on.

Since it will be with Trackdaz, I highly encourage you to be proactive and seek help, advice, lines, etc from one of the control riders--whatever it is you want to work on. Ride with them and off track get a debriefing and what you want to work on next. On track you will see they have custom leathers you can easily identify. For me personally if I were in your shoes I would hit up Sal, Canea (prounounced Kanye...like the rapper), or Irwin. I felt I would learn most from them. During rider's meeting Dustin will introduce you to them.

All Trackdaz control riders have NJK custom leathers that stand out.

Sal's leathers are White and Blue. Canea's leather's are mostly neon yellow and black. Irwin's leathers are mostly silver/grey and black.

There are other control riders out there too that you can utilize.

But most importantly, have fun

On track they may tap their tale--that means follow them and do what they do.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I'm wondering, as a noob, what I should work on as I continue to go to track days.

A peculiar question coming form a rider that has mastered the twisted back roads beyond any chicken strip.

"In the end you have to figure out, or get some help figuring out, how to lock onto the bike. That can be tricky simply because of the survival instincts attached to it. But once you figure out a comfortable and stable position it opens many doors and provides solutions to just about any aggressive riding situation you can think of. Experiment with it and see what you can find, there will be a BEST position for you and it will help." Keith Code

Read the whole article about Comfort And Stability here:

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...?showtopic=116

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Some good info thank you! I don't think I'll be WOT down the straights yet, when I have to brake a lot before a corner its hard to tell how much to brake. At my first track day I'd brake for corners but not a whole lot and it was easier to figure out what speed I should enter the turn at. As the day went on I sped up a bit and braked a bit more but for most of the sessions I was in 4th gear.

I think I'll hold off on WOT down the straights and hard braking until maybe the second day

And yes this thread is different from the other in that its aimed towards what a new C group rider should be doing

the trick is... don't brake!

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by alex.s

the trick is... don't brake!

I kinda agree with this. Have a coach take you around the track doing the "no brakes" drill so you can focus on entry speed and lines at the same time.

I would then move to some visual skills. Keeping your eyes up and one 1 step ahead. It's the first step to getting real control of your SR's.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I kinda agree with this. Have a coach take you around the track doing the "no brakes" drill so you can focus on entry speed and lines at the same time.

I would then move to some visual skills. Keeping your eyes up and one 1 step ahead. It's the first step to getting real control of your SR's.

When I took the Keith Code school they taught the same thing in their level one class. I did like 2 or 3 levels and the whole no braking screwed with my mind. It didn't teach me anything but get off the brakes and pretty much roll through the turn in a higher gear. Not really realistic in a trackday nor racing atmosphere IMHO.

Had someone broken down every little step on how to corner, like I do now, I would have been racing long time ago.

Braking is key. So is learning when to release the brakes to gain enough momentum to carry you from entry point to apex (then roll on the throttle).

Just my .02

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

Braking is key. So is learning when to release the brakes to gain enough momentum going into a turn.

i need to get a tow from you fast guys... i always slam on the brakes way early and then don't hold WOT once i'm rolled on... like coming into turn 7/6 and 5/4 ccw... i dont roll on soon enough and then roll off way too much trying to setup for the second corner when i should just turn the bike then pin it and leave it pinned... but for some reason my chicken self won't do that when i'm by myself...

[Dmented]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

When I took the Keith Code school in1963 they taught the same thing in their level one class.
Braking is key. So is learning when to release the brakes to gain enough momentum to carry you from entry point to apex (then roll on the throttle).

Just my .02

SPEAK...
REAL... TALK...

I'm one a the best at late braking but you can EASILY out brake yourself and run it in too deep OR hold on too long. gotta know when too much is too much. I'm best when trying to go deeper than the racer next to me but the SECOND I'm alone I can't do it. I'd say practice with someone who's about your same speed, just beat them to the corners and you'll be on your way.

[Firehorse]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Well there ya go!

http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b2.../Track%20Days/

I also have a whole thread on it somewhere

Woo hoo! So awesome! I can't wait for my day.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Dmented

SPEAK...
REAL... TALK...

I'm one a the best at late braking but you can EASILY out brake yourself and run it in too deep OR hold on too long. gotta know when too much is too much. I'm best when trying to go deeper than the racer next to me but the SECOND I'm alone I can't do it. I'd say practice with someone who's about your same speed, just beat them to the corners and you'll be on your way.

You're not using reference points if you can only do if when someone else is next to you (therefore using their reference points).

[csmith12]

hmmmm.... How did I not see updates to this thread.

Originally Posted by Nemesis

When I took the Keith Code school they taught the same thing in their level one class. I did like 2 or 3 levels and the whole no braking screwed with my mind. It didn't teach me anything but get off the brakes and pretty much roll through the turn in a higher gear. Not really realistic in a trackday nor racing atmosphere IMHO.

First off, a track day is a learning opportunity. If the org creates an environment where learning is not encouraged, then ride with someone else.

Second, perhaps you missed the point. When doing the no brake drill the whole point is to not even think about the brakes or when to hit them. And when possible, don't even shift.
Why? So you can focus the majority of your feel and attention on throttle control, visual skills or some other skill. You of all riders should know when approaching a corner at max speed, you have a "limited" amount of time to get things done. How do you get new riders used to that? You could of course break everything down and hit the track. Where would their brake marker be? 500ft, 600ft maybe??? Well, well... guess what that rider just did. They took braking off the table before cornering.

CSS as well as many other riding schools do the exact same thing, except they do it on purpose and with goals in mind. If it didn't work for you, that's fine but it doesn't mean it's not helpful or has a place as a training tool. Everyone learns differently and at different speeds.

Since Mr. Jiggles says he is working up to WOT in the straights. That is a pretty clear indicator that he is not looking far enough ahead or hasn't built up the processing speed to slow the perception of speed. Perhaps he hasn't just got control of the SR yet. A rider isn't going to go any faster than what they can see and react to unless they crash or have "blind" luck.

Don't get me wrong yo, your winning races and there is nothing wrong with your point of view. You obviously got a handle on what works for you. Be mindful that not everyone mirrors your progression. Most just wish they could go out and win races.

[alex.s]

no way bro nem doesn't know what he's doing at all

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

You're not using reference points if you can only do if when someone else is next to you (therefore using their reference points).

oh, burn! LOL

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by alex.s

no way bro nem doesn't know what he's doing at all

lol right..... at this point I think he knows exactly what he's doing, not doing or wants for that matter.

[alex.s]

he certainly knows how to start a race!

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by csmith12

hmmmm.... How did I not see updates to this thread.

First off, a track day is a learning opportunity. If the org creates an environment where learning is not encouraged, then ride with someone else.

Second, perhaps you missed the point. When doing the no brake drill the whole point is to not even think about the brakes or when to hit them. And when possible, don't even shift.
Why? So you can focus the majority of your feel and attention on throttle control, visual skills or some other skill. You of all riders should know when approaching a corner at max speed, you have a "limited" amount of time to get things done. How do you get new riders used to that? You could of course break everything down and hit the track. Where would their brake marker be? 500ft, 600ft maybe??? Well, well... guess what that rider just did. They took braking off the table before cornering.

CSS as well as many other riding schools do the exact same thing, except they do it on purpose and with goals in mind. If it didn't work for you, that's fine but it doesn't mean it's not helpful or has a place as a training tool. Everyone learns differently and at different speeds.

*Disclaimer* - This is purely my opinion and my opinion only. They're based on my personal experience with CSS. Noobs should not take what I say as law and exercise their own judgment.

Nah, I understand what they were trying to achieve, and what my part was. But were they successful is the real question. <--read on...you'll know what I mean by this.

I just don't agree with the school's approach/drills. I do like their instructors though...they really know how to analyze and pick your brain. However, considering the amount they charge you and lack of time spent (one-on-one) you're better off signing up for an one-on-one training school. The great thing about one-on-one schools is that they incorporate video recording to help you visually see what you're NOT doing. And it's just you and the coach. Heck, you can spend $100 for a trackday and ask a control rider for some coaching for FREE if you can't afford the schools. Some trackdays do offer coaching classes at no additional cost other than your entry fee to a trackday. You can even go to the extent of asking an experienced rider/racer on how to corner at a trackday which is what I've done when I started riding. The only problem with that is you have to weed out the bad from the good...so how do you weed them out? That's a tough question to answer, or maybe not. In my experience, I just asked the same questions to different people and weeded out the bad based on the answers I got. For example, if their answers were balls out extreme like Alex.s' or if they just kept regurgitating the same generic stuff I'd just ignore it.

The problem with group settings is that everyone has a different learning curve. The class will proceed to the next drill/teaching/etc. regardless if you didn't fully comprehend the previous exercise in the classroom or out on the track. And another downside is one person who paid $500+ may have tons of questions but may not ask them in fear of holding up the class...it does happen...no denying it.

When I was a new rider I didn't know any better (and to an extent I guess I still don't...LOL)...I would hear/read about people's experience with CCS like you'll automatically become a better rider if you took their school which is not the case. I was even more confused after completing two or was it three levels with CSS. You can have thousands of riders do the drill over & over but it doesn't mean they'll attain the goal you described. Ever wonder how everyone who attends their school never fails, and receives a certificate of completion? Really...do the riders fully understand the concept and does it show in their riding? If not, why would you pass them?

Don't get me wrong, the school WILL teach you something. Perhaps how one does not know anything about cornering, if anything. However, again, I just don't like their approach/drills. I guess it has worked for some, if not many. But there are also those who felt it didn't, and I'm one of them. If I recall there were a few riders that I know who have taken all their levels yet to this day still ride in C group. What gives?

Originally Posted by csmith12

A rider isn't going to go any faster than what they can see and react to unless they crash or have "blind" luck.

Not sure what you mean by "blind" luck.

I do agree baby steps are key to improving your skills and building confidence.

Originally Posted by csmith12

Don't get me wrong yo, your winning races and there is nothing wrong with your point of view. You obviously got a handle on what works for you. Be mindful that not everyone mirrors your progression. Most just wish they could go out and win races.

I actually am mindful of others which is why I commented in this thread. What some people don't know about me is that I've struggled with cornering for YEARS! Hope I don't come off as being conceded or like I'm boasting for what I'm about to say. Just some background: I've been riding for 9 yrs...not a long time I know. I've been riding in B (intermediate) & C (Novice) group but mostly in C group in my earlier years of riding--6 yrs to be exact. Then 1 to 2 yrs in B group, and now easily in A though for some reason A group still scares me. LOL

Yes, that's 6 yrs in C group. Why? I didn't fully understand Keith's approach to cornering....no fault to him I guess. Again people have different learning curves, and his approach and outlook to cornering lacks step-by-step approaches or should I say is very different than how I would have approached it. So for years I've been searching and asking people for advice on how to corner, and it wasn't just recently (September 2012 to be exact) that everything finally clicked for me. And what I've discovered is there are a lot of areas that Keith Code doesn't address that's key to cornering which I've addressed in my earlier post. Then again I never finished their final level...so I guess I should have paid MORE just to learn those steps. Reminds me of those infomericals..."buy my starting kit right now and I can teach you how to [start] the art of cornering. Pay me another $500 and I'll teach you the art of braking. Another $500 and the art of exiting."

In conclusion, any form of training is better than nothing. However, what I am suggesting is don't feel CSS is your only option and keep an open mind.


Dang that was a long post!



Ride safe and SMART!

[choneofakind]

Rule number 1 given to me by my Prof in writing seminar last year: Never start your conclusion with, "in conclusion".

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Rule number 1 given to me by my Prof in writing seminar last year: Never start your conclusion with, "in conclusion".

Fine...how about: So suck it, and let me tell you why!

[choneofakind]

Much better

[csmith12]

Nemesis

I really appreciate your personal review of CCS. I haven't taken any of their levels and am honestly on the fence about enrolling. I need to do some more homework and hear feedback from others at our level of riding who have taken the course. The way I see it, I have most likely missed my window of getting the most bang for my buck. Like you said, it's not the only option.

And dood... I been riding since I was 16 (39 next month ), mostly cruiser style bikes. My father taught me everything he knew about riding, which was next to nothing. lol Gas, brake, lean and keep it between the lines. I had to learn just about everything on my own via "blind luck" (see below). So I totally feel you about struggling with corners for years and had no $$$ for classes or track time. I also wore out my welcome in C and B groups. I didn't stay for years but stayed until given da boot by control riders. Even when chone and I went to mid-o last year, I got booted from B to A group. I was able to talk him into letting me stay in B for the rest of the day though using my tires as an excuse.

Blind luck - Just a figure of speech mostly, mainly it's the difference in knowing ahead of time you are capable of doing something vs. just taking a chance that you might be able to do something

We're cool though... no disrespect intended and I got a beer with your name on it in the paddock.

[alex.s]

i'm not even that ballsy with my advice... i just tell people to forget about braking and pin it and see if they come out the other side...


no but really though, for me personally... its not hard to see that i chop the throttle, slam on the brakes and park it before corners... dont keep it pinned when it needs to be... identifying my problems is not exactly the hard part... the hard part is turning that "oh yeah i really should be doing..." into "it feels best when i do..." sometimes figuring out what is keeping you from having that correct response come naturally is as simple as turning a foot or looking further ahead so you feel more comfortable... sometimes maybe its having someone in front of you so instead of worrying about your own bike, you are instead focused on going faster... i know personally taking corners way deeper than i normally would trying to pass someone has taught me so much about what i don't know... you think that because the tire makes a noise or shakes a little that its going to slide... so you do things that your mind thinks is making it safer like chopping the throttle and it makes it worse, so you tell yourself that that is the limit when in reality if you just had kept it pinned the whole time, the little slide/wobble would settle and you would have been fine... i donno... theres a whole lot of talk about what you should or shouldn't do but when it comes down to it... at the end of the day it requires that you actually go do it... i like steve's method... go fast, take some chances... you are on a race track with lots of run off... if you screw up, go off... no biggie. worst case you crash with some paramedics a minute away

...just pray someone on a cbr doesn't rear end you though. those things are dangerous.

[csmith12]

Guys

One of my posts from my intro thread at CCS forum

Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:07 PM
Yea, this year I have seen the biggest improvements and a burst in speed that I really can't explain, I guess I just got comfortable. I did spend way to much time in N and I groups but I am glad I did. As a matter of fact, I still ride my ninja 250 from time to time to focus on skills. That bike just feels like it allows me to focus on me.... if you know what I mean.

How in the world can you help someone go faster when I can't even explain what, when and how? lol

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by csmith12

How in the world can you help someone go faster when I can't even explain what, when and how? lol

You coulf focus on explaining the body positioning in real talk. You're good at that and you helped me go faster with BP.

Be the BP guy!

[csmith12]

I made that post chone. I am quoting myself.

[choneofakind]

...oops.

[alex.s]

you know... i'm pretty sure chode has never smoked a day in his life... but god damn is he the biggest stoner i know.

[Jiggles]

Chode blood dopes though

[choneofakind]

jk, I still love lance.

EDIT: nice. He's even pointing right at Jiggs. Success.

[alex.s]

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0010NWP9K/?tag=093-20