Another example of why we get a bad name

[gantt]

http://www.macon.com/2014/07/22/3211...otorcycle.html
Dude ran from the fuzz and paid the price.
this is about 1 mile from my job. why do people make such bad choices? dead at the age of 23.

[Baron]

Originally Posted by gantt

http://www.macon.com/2014/07/22/3211...otorcycle.html
Dude ran from the fuzz and paid the price.
this is about 1 mile from my job. why do people make such bad choices? dead at the age of 23.

On a serious note
The answer is more or less along the lines of that humans have an affinity for idiocy. I've know idiots who drive without a motorcycle license, without insurance, without their brains[probably stored in jars for an auction because they have never been used] and last but the most stupid thing, without proper gear.
When you ask them, the answer varies from, I don't feel like it to I am not a p***y rider like you. I used to be pissed off at this because people stereotype communities, cultures, etc based on the worst lot, now I just don't give a plague-infected-rat's arse. I let the way I drive speak for myself.

[That was way too much seriousness for a morning]

[gantt]

well said. I feel the same way. though I am guilty on not wearing the correct gear all the time.

[subxero]

just to fore warn, somewhat graphic description from article below






Jones said the motorcycle struck a machine used to lay asphalt on the road, and the rider was embedded in the machine upon impact.

[Ninjinsky]

A bad guy on a motorcycle represents all bikers
A bad guy in a car is just a bad guy who happens to be in a car.

This fundamental public attitude split is not correctable. It is locked into the relative herd numbers. It is also why democracy is a disaster, you are always one referendum from banning motorcycles but that's another story.

[NevadaWolf]

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

A bad guy on a motorcycle represents all bikers
A bad guy in a car is just a bad guy who happens to be in a car.

This reminds me of something a teacher said to my class back in junior high. Paraphrasing due to memory loss... "Whenever someone who is the same as you does something bad, they are just a bad person. Whenever someone who is different than you does something bad, they represent their whole group and they are all bad."

At the time, the class was discussing the idea of "race" and how humans define it. But I've noticed that it applies to anything that can separate a group into "same" or "different".

It was particularly noticeable when a friend was ranting about idiot bikers and slamming everyone who rides, while I was sitting beside him just staring in disbelief. "Oh, not you, of course" he said.

Interesting how the good ones can be the exception or not even seen when trying to stereotype.

[capt_bugaloo]

A Perry man was traveling at 73 mph in a 55 mph zone Tuesday evening which led to a chase and fatal crash, according to the Georgia State Patrol.

73 in a 55 zone isn't that crazy. If he'd pulled over and just "whoops, sorry" he likely would have just gotten a ticket, maybe a hefty fine, and gotten on with his life.

[flitecontrol]

Wondering if he had outstanding warrants, motorcycle endorsement on his license, insurance, etc. All those could have contributed to his decision to make a run for it.

And he didn't get caught.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

This reminds me of something a teacher said to my class back in junior high. Paraphrasing due to memory loss... "Whenever someone who is the same as you does something bad, they are just a bad person. Whenever someone who is different than you does something bad, they represent their whole group and they are all bad."

At the time, the class was discussing the idea of "race" and how humans define it. But I've noticed that it applies to anything that can separate a group into "same" or "different".

It was particularly noticeable when a friend was ranting about idiot bikers and slamming everyone who rides, while I was sitting beside him just staring in disbelief. "Oh, not you, of course" he said.

Interesting how the good ones can be the exception or not even seen when trying to stereotype.

I was about to post this exact same response

[gantt]

the chase was also from a different county. about 15-20 miles away. so I am sure he was going faster at times. that intersection is pretty sketchy. four highways coming in to one spot. bad asphalt from trucks stopping at the light. 40 is a safe speed there.

[JohnnyBravo]

That sucks, but such is life

[gantt]

live stupid, die stupid

[ally99]

Everyone makes piss poor decisions at times. Most of the time, we are lucky enough to survive them. His decision was stupid and resulted in the worst possible consequence. We are so quick to label people stupid rather than labeling the behavior as stupid. But that said, I didn't even read the article, so what the hell do I know?

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by ally99

Everyone makes piss poor decisions at time. Most of the time, we are lucky enough to survive them. His decision was stupid and resulted in the worst possible consequence. We are so quick to label people stupid rather than labeling the behavior as stupid. But that said, I didn't even read the article, so what the hell do I know?

summary: he made a bad decision and it cost him his life

decided to run from cops for only 20 over the speed limit at night, made it a good ways until he came across a sketchy intersection, somehow went off and smacked into a (I believe, but am not sure if it's this or something similar) steamroller

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by gantt

http://www.macon.com/2014/07/22/3211...otorcycle.html
Dude ran from the fuzz and paid the price.
this is about 1 mile from my job. why do people make such bad choices? dead at the age of 23.

Two very absurd situations: the running and the chasing.
In the heat of the moment, both sides weren't able to appreciate the value of a human life.

It seems that he slid on grass before the fatal impact.

It is very sad to me each time someone so young dies due to perfectly avoidable road situations and accidents.

[eddiekay]

We don't really know why the biker ran so I wouldn't necessarily agree it was a stupid move. My thought is that it was pretty irresponsible for the cop to chase this guy down for such a long time...but too...I don't really know why the cop chased him.

[BoBO]

Originally Posted by eddiekay

We don't really know why the biker ran so I wouldn't necessarily agree it was a stupid move. My thought is that it was pretty irresponsible for the cop to chase this guy down for such a long time...but too...I don't really know why the cop chased him.

Same here, the cop should have weighed the risks involved in pursuing the rider. If the cop got the riders plates on cam, then that would have probably been enough information on the guys home location, unless the bike was stolen. The rider was stupid, but no pursuit is worth a mans life. A good cop makes good choices whether it is wise to go after and pressure the rider, or back off a bit to help save the riders life and other potential dangers created by the chase.

A similar situation happened in Socal many years ago. A young kid on a stolen motorcycle was trying to evade CHP, and CHP took their time and used road blocks and a helicopter to keep track of the rider from a distance. After 1hr they were able to apprehend the kid alive.

[eddiekay]

The police have no good reason to show good judgement here in NY because no matter what they do that goes wrong, it is defended by a rich, politically powerful union in court. In the county I live in, the head of the PD can not discipline an officer without a union rep present.
A week ago in NYC, the police saw a man selling cigarettes....1 at a time.
They attempted to arrest him for selling untaxed cigarettes.
Selling the butts was OK...but he wasn't collecting tax...so he was committing a crime.
Several cops surrounded the man. The man offered some resistance...he tried to walk away...resisting arrest. He was placed in a choke hold and strangled to death.
Judgement ?
The union will get the cop off the hook....the murdered mans family will sue NYC and the court will probably award te family millions. Yeah...but he was selling untaxed cigarettes...1 at a time.

[gantt]

the police should have called the chase off by now. he was coming from a more rural area into the heart of a medium sized city. not too far from downtown. they had ten miles or more to catch him. if that bike had broadsided a car a half a mile up the road the occupants in the car could have been killed. then the cops would be in trouble. but since the rider is the only one, somehow its ok.

[Xtina]

"The motorcycle struck a machine used to lay asphalt on the road, and the rider was embedded in the machine upon impact."

EWWWWWWW

[flitecontrol]

So when the police observe a vehicle speeding or operating recklessly, turn on their lights and sirens, and a pursuit ensues, they should break it off if there is a chance the pursued vehicle operator may hurt himself or someone else???? Wouldn't that apply to every pursuit? It wouldn't take long for anyone so inclined to run from the police, knowing the police are going to break off the pursuit. Which brings up the question of how do you enforce traffic regulations if you aren't going to catch the violators?

What about the idiot that's flagrantly breaking traffic regulations and endangering the public when there's no law enforcement around? How do you keep them from hurting someone? Who protects the innocent from injury in that case?

This rider had a chance to simply stop and get a ticket. He chose to run and paid with his life. He learned the hard way there are consequences for really bad decisions. His decision led to his death. The police were only doing their job.

[Ninjinsky]

Their job is to chase people around? It's very childish really, Holywood thinking.
"He chose to run and paid with his life"
Very cowboy movie thing to say but really think that cheapens life, don't you?

73 in a 55 is not a death sentence crime Just take his freaking number and mail him a ticket. FFS.
End of story no drama queen stuff and no one dead.

Does a speed camera chase kids into a blind panic and run them off the road? No
Does it catch up with you and give you a stiff kicking? No

The kid just panicked For 90% of the time chases are superfluous. The only 'crime' is riding a few mph over some arbitrary speed.

The bottom line is there is no need for a "stop" never mind a high speed pursuit.
Save the dramatics for firearms and psychopaths.

[flitecontrol]

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

Their job is to chase people around? It very childish really, Holywood thinking.
"He chose to run and paid with his life"
Very cowboy movie thing to say but really think that cheapens life, don't you?

73 in a 55 is not a death sentence crime Just take his freaking number and mail him a ticket. FFS.
End of story no drama queen stuff and no one dead.

Does a speed camera chase kids into a blind panic and run them off the road? No
Does it catch up with you and give you a stiff kicking? No

The kid just panicked For 90% of the time chases are superfluous. The only 'crime' is riding a few mph over some arbitrary speed.

The bottom line is there is no need for a "stop" never mind a high speed pursuit.
Save the dramatics for firearms and psychopaths.

The job of law enforcement is just that; to enforce the laws. At times, that involves catching people that are breaking the law and hopefully preventing them from hurting others or themselves. There is no way the police could know that the rider was going to lose control and kill himself.

"He chose to run and paid with his life"
Very cowboy movie thing to say but really think that cheapens life, don't you?

No, I don't. Why do you? My statement speaks for itself. It was his decision, which displayed a blatant disregard for others and himself. If anyone's attitude cheapens life, it was his. Taking risks that can lead to death clearly showed a wonton disregard for his own life. If that isn't an attitude that cheapens life, I don't know what is.

As for taking his number and mailing him a ticket, how are they going to prove (that's law enforcement's burden, to provide proof of who committed the crime) who was riding the bike just by writing down the license number? That argument doesn't hold water.

I don't know how common speed cameras are where you live, but they are pretty much non-existent in many parts of the U.S. How is a speed camera going to identify a rider wearing a helmet?

So the cops have pulled you over and given you a stiff kicking? If so, what were the circumstances? If not, why would you report this as a routine outcome to a traffic stop? The times I have been pulled over, the officers have been professional in their actions. Never got kicked, not once.

The "kid" was 23 years old and certainly was old enough to understand the consequences of running from the police.

Seventy three in a 55 mph zone is more than a few miles over the speed limit, which is probably why he attracted the attention of the police. The police in most jurisdictions don't bother folks that are doing just "a few miles over some arbitrary speed limit". We've all seen idiots travelling at excessive speeds knowing that their actions could result in hefty fines and penalties if they are caught. If there were no speed limits, how fast, and how safely, would people operate their vehicles? You seem to advocate letting people do as they choose. If everyone was responsible, and put other's needs and safety first, that would be fine. But we all know that doesn't work in the real world.

"The bottom line is there is no need for a "stop" never mind a high speed pursuit.
Save the dramatics for firearms and psychopaths."

Never a need for a traffic stop? I don't know how to address that statement other than to say I strongly disagree. What if the guy they are chasing is an armed psychopath? You can't argue both sides of the fence.

[capt_bugaloo]

I think the decision to take pursuit of a speeder is a difficult one for the cops to make (at least I would hope so). I've seen many reports of innocent bystanders being maimed or killed in such chases.

In these parts, the cops generally do not pursue at high speed, but will radio ahead and order a road block with spike belts if they feel it is necessary. In the Vancouver area, there is usually an air vehicle that can act as a spotter to track the target.

[NevadaWolf]

I think the number of high speed chases has definitely gone down - both due to maintaining public safety, and advanced technology that can catch the person running by using other means. Communications, air support, etc can get ahead of the person faster than a pursuit can.

But i do agree with catching the person involved at the time vs mailing a ticket. How do you prove who was driving? What if the vehicle is unregistered or uninsured? How about the license, is it expired or non existent? Is the driver under the influence of something? Is the driver wanted for anything else? Stopping someone in the act of a crime is inconvenient to all while it does locate those who are in violation of other laws.

Have I been pulled over? Yep, several times. Twice for my own stupidity, once because I was driving "suspiciously" followed a few days later for a "license plate light was out" (both of those were for what I knew to be a check for stolen vehicles), and once for what I feel was a BS call. In all times the officer was polite, professional, and efficient. Never did I feel the need to run in a blind panic, even when I knew I was at fault and had been caught, and never has the officer touched me in any way unless our fingers accidentally touched when I was handing over my information.

The rider chose to run, escalating the situation. He chose to ride recklessly through a congested area. His choice cost him his life (and yes i've now read the article). Do I feel bad for him losing his life? Nope. I feel bad for the crewmen who now have to clean his corpse out of their equipment.

[LittleRedNinjette]

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

I think the number of high speed chases has definitely gone down - both due to maintaining public safety, and advanced technology that can catch the person running by using other means. Communications, air support, etc can get ahead of the person faster than a pursuit can.

But i do agree with catching the person involved at the time vs mailing a ticket. How do you prove who was driving? What if the vehicle is unregistered or uninsured? How about the license, is it expired or non existent? Is the driver under the influence of something? Is the driver wanted for anything else? Stopping someone in the act of a crime is inconvenient to all while it does locate those who are in violation of other laws.

Have I been pulled over? Yep, several times. Twice for my own stupidity, once because I was driving "suspiciously" followed a few days later for a "license plate light was out" (both of those were for what I knew to be a check for stolen vehicles), and once for what I feel was a BS call. In all times the officer was polite, professional, and efficient. Never did I feel the need to run in a blind panic, even when I knew I was at fault and had been caught, and never has the officer touched me in any way unless our fingers accidentally touched when I was handing over my information.

The rider chose to run, escalating the situation. He chose to ride recklessly through a congested area. His choice cost him his life (and yes i've now read the article). Do I feel bad for him losing his life? Nope. I feel bad for the crewmen who now have to clean his corpse out of their equipment.

[Ninjinsky]

Sure wolf, I appreciate your position. However I think policing has completely lost the plot.
The police have become totally obsessed with motor vehicle trivia. It's like vehicle technicalities are all they do these days. I appreciate it is easy work just 2 numbers licence plate and speed or which bulb is blown.

But in a country with a murder rate of 14,000 real people a year, with an obscene crack drug problem, not to mention domestic violence, child abuse,mafia, prostitution etc' I would hope for something better than sitting at the side of the road waiting for a blown sidelight to pass and make their day.

[LittleRedNinjette]

Routine traffic stops are one of the tools used to catch said criminals. The ones that run, run for a reason. thats my anyway.

[iamjacob]

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

But in a country with a murder rate of 14,000 real people a year, with an obscene crack drug problem, not to mention domestic violence, child abuse,mafia, prostitution etc' I would hope for something better than sitting at the side of the road waiting for a blown sidelight to pass and make their day.

You realize that your stat of 14,000 yearly murders is less than half of the motor vehicle deaths (~33,500) in 2012.

Unfortunately, none of the items you listed murder, drug problem, domestic violence, child abuse, mafia, or prostitution generate revenue like traffic citations otherwise they might get more attention.

[gantt]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

So when the police observe a vehicle speeding or operating recklessly, turn on their lights and sirens, and a pursuit ensues, they should break it off if there is a chance the pursued vehicle operator may hurt himself or someone else???? Wouldn't that apply to every pursuit? It wouldn't take long for anyone so inclined to run from the police, knowing the police are going to break off the pursuit. Which brings up the question of how do you enforce traffic regulations if you aren't going to catch the violators?

What about the idiot that's flagrantly breaking traffic regulations and endangering the public when there's no law enforcement around? How do you keep them from hurting someone? Who protects the innocent from injury in that case?

This rider had a chance to simply stop and get a ticket. He chose to run and paid with his life. He learned the hard way there are consequences for really bad decisions. His decision led to his death. The police were only doing their job.

what I am saying is a half mile past where he wrecked is a highly populated area. houses, stores, mall, you name it. I think it would have been in the publics best interest at that point to call off the chase. the polices job is to serve and protect. there is more than one way to protect. the smart thing to do would be to call it off.

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by iamjacob

You realize that your stat of 14,000 yearly murders is less than half of the motor vehicle deaths (~33,500) in 2012.

Unfortunately, none of the items you listed murder, drug problem, domestic violence, child abuse, mafia, or prostitution generate revenue like traffic citations otherwise they might get more attention.

True IamJacob. But I don't think the policing stops those accidents, as we discussed on another thread speeding and drink are not contributory to most road deaths. It tends to be problems with attention/ distraction and bad traffic judgement.

Here in the UK the cops have been substantially taken out of cars, they used to be on your case all the time, tailgating to push you over speed limits, that sort of crap,
Now you don't see them much and you know what? fatalities have fallen, considerably from 5500 a year in the 1980s to 1700 a year today.

[flitecontrol]

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

Sure wolf, I appreciate your position. However I think policing has completely lost the plot.
The police have become totally obsessed with motor vehicle trivia. It's like vehicle technicalities are all they do these days. I appreciate it is easy work just 2 numbers licence plate and speed or which bulb is blown.

But in a country with a murder rate of 14,000 real people a year, with an obscene crack drug problem, not to mention domestic violence, child abuse,mafia, prostitution etc' I would hope for something better than sitting at the side of the road waiting for a blown sidelight to pass and make their day.

You seem to have no grasp of what is involved in law enforcement work. In our parish (what everywhere else in the U.S. except Louisiana is called a county) of approximately 160,000 people, we have a combined task force that deals exclusively with drugs and gangs (yeah, they're related). It's members come from the two local police departments, the sheriff's office, and the Louisiana Highway Patrol. These officers aren't involved in traffic control, but others are. These same "traffic cops" you refer to also work prostitution, domestic disputes (the most likely way an officer will get injured or killed), bank robberies, thefts, assaults, murders, and so on. How have they "lost the plot"? That sounds like balanced policing to me.

Interstate 20 runs through our parish. There have been a number of cases where law enforcement has developed information on vehicles that are known to be transporting drugs through this area. But to protect their sources, they need to come up with a "reason" to stop those vehicles. A blown light is sufficient justification in the eyes of the courts to justify stopping a vehicle. So when they find such a vehicle, they find a valid reason to pull it over.

Are law enforcement officers a cut below on the IQ scale? Probably not. There is an exit on the interstate that has no gas stations or other facilities. Periodically, law enforcement would put up a sign about a half mile before this exit notifying motorists that there was a drug check station a few miles ahead. Nervous drug mules, trying to avoid detection, would take that exit only to find a welcoming committee of officers. When asked why they had taken the exit, some would say to get gas, to which the officers would reply that there were no signs indicating gas stations at that exit. Others would say they were going to meet family or friends. However, they couldn't provide their names or streets where these folks lived and the jig was up for them too. Pretty sharp police work IMO. Get the drug runners to come to you!

How does the above jibe with your assertion that "The police have become totally obsessed with motor vehicle trivia."?

Originally Posted by LittleRedNinjette

Routine traffic stops are one of the tools used to catch said criminals. The ones that run, run for a reason. thats my anyway.

Exactly!

Originally Posted by iamjacob

You realize that your stat of 14,000 yearly murders is less than half of the motor vehicle deaths (~33,500) in 2012.

Unfortunately, none of the items you listed murder, drug problem, domestic violence, child abuse, mafia, or prostitution generate revenue like traffic citations otherwise they might get more attention.

Many police departments receive little or no revenue from traffic fines. The majority of these funds go to the court. However, regulations have been passed that allow law enforcement agencies to seize vehicles and other "fruits of the crime" associated with drug trafficking.

Originally Posted by gantt

what I am saying is a half mile past where he wrecked is a highly populated area. houses, stores, mall, you name it. I think it would have been in the publics best interest at that point to call off the chase. the polices job is to serve and protect. there is more than one way to protect. the smart thing to do would be to call it off.

Who is to say they wouldn't have called it off, or already had, and the rider kept running until he crashed?

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

True IamJacob. But I don't think the policing stops those accidents, as we discussed on another thread speeding and drink are not contributory to most road deaths. It tends to be problems with attention/ distraction and bad traffic judgement.

Here in the UK the cops have been substantially taken out of cars, they used to be on your case all the time, tailgating to push you over speed limits, that sort of crap,
Now you don't see them much and you know what? fatalities have fallen, considerably from 5500 a year in the 1980s to 1700 a year today.

In the U.S., drinking is a factor in about half the fatal motorcycle accidents, and in many of those, it's the rider who was drinking. You can't fix stupid!

Safer cars, better crumple zones, air bags, better seat belts, mandatory seat belt usage, etc., have led to reduced fatalities. Unfortunately, the use of phones while driving is pushing the accident rate up.

[twistywrist]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

Seventy three in a 55 mph zone is more than a few miles over the speed limit, which is probably why he attracted the attention of the police. The police in most jurisdictions don't bother folks that are doing just "a few miles over some arbitrary speed limit". We've all seen idiots travelling at excessive speeds knowing that their actions could result in hefty fines and penalties if they are caught. If there were no speed limits, how fast, and how safely, would people operate their vehicles? You seem to advocate letting people do as they choose. If everyone was responsible, and put other's needs and safety first, that would be fine. But we all know that doesn't work in the real world.

That's exactly how it works in the real world when the government doesn't set some arbitrary number for a max speed limit. What happened when the feds raised the max speed limit from 55 to 65? Less accidents. What happens on the autobahn where there is NO speed limit? Less accidents. People want to live... They will drive at a speed they feel is safe given the conditions, their vehicle's capabilities, and their own driving ability. Eliminating speed limits would definitely make our freeways safer, but it'll never happen because of political pressure from MADD types, and the fact that speeding tickets raise so much money.

[capt_bugaloo]

Originally Posted by twistywrist

That's exactly how it works in the real world when the government doesn't set some arbitrary number for a max speed limit.

Where I live, speed limits are not set arbitrarily. The local road engineers will set up sensors and monitor the road usage. They study how much traffic is using the road, and more importantly, what speeds do drivers prefer to travel.
They then pick the speed that covers the 85th percentile (ie. 85% of drivers are doing that speed or lower) and then set the limit to that, also allowing for issues such as blind spots, surface conditions, etc.

[flitecontrol]

Originally Posted by twistywrist

That's exactly how it works in the real world when the government doesn't set some arbitrary number for a max speed limit. What happened when the feds raised the max speed limit from 55 to 65? Less accidents. What happens on the autobahn where there is NO speed limit? Less accidents. People want to live... They will drive at a speed they feel is safe given the conditions, their vehicle's capabilities, and their own driving ability. Eliminating speed limits would definitely make our freeways safer, but it'll never happen because of political pressure from MADD types, and the fact that speeding tickets raise so much money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utOX6R4ImNg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5jTAQ8XeKc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbdH-J6UoYI

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-autobahn.html

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...ccidents_.html

There's more, but it's late.

[LiquidShell]

75 in a 55 zone in GA is not even considered Super Speeder. Only the guy and maybe the officer knows why he didn't stop but that guy took his life for no reason.

Yes, he took his own life...

[Hero Danny]

Originally Posted by ally99

Everyone makes piss poor decisions at times. Most of the time, we are lucky enough to survive them. His decision was stupid and resulted in the worst possible consequence. We are so quick to label people stupid rather than labeling the behavior as stupid. But that said, I didn't even read the article, so what the hell do I know?

I agree.

To be honest, I don't exactly blame him. I mean, if the cops were chasing me then I would pull over 100%. But I would at the same time think about (man I wished I could get away) The main reason is those damn insurance rates would increase. I feel like speeding on a motorcycle shouldn't yield to such great consequences because a bike can do a lot of damage, but no where near as much as a car...

I'm sure someone will argue with me about it, but this is just the way I feel about it. *shrugs*

[Ninjinsky]

The 55 was introduced to save fuel after the OPEC oil price hike. It was an economic measure, not a safety one