Harley-Davidson is in trouble - again.

[Sailariel]

Read an article in this morning's Bangor Daily News that Harley-Davidson is in trouble. The new CEO, Keith Wardell, the man responsible for Buell's demise, is looking for a state where the H-D plant can relocate. Corporate headquarters are to remain in Milwaukee. Mr. Wardell came to H-D from the Ford Motor Company. I guess he is learning that being in upper management at Ford is a lot different than being the CEO of H-D. Dumping Buell was a huge mistake. I read in one of the many motorcycle magazines I read, that after getting rid of Buell, that H-D was in negotiation with Hyosung, of S. Korea, to produce "entry level" bikes to be sold through H-D dealers. The negotiations were not limited to entry level bikes only; The discussion also looked at the possibility of producing a Sport Bike. I guess that Erik Buell was to expensive tor H-D. The May issue of Cycle World has an insightful article outlining Buell's history and its eventual demise at the hands of H-D. I do hope that a similar axing of a good company like MV Augusta (also controlled/owned by Harley-Davidson) is not in the offing.

[bob706]

I know a way Harley can stay in Wisconson and make a ton of money....get rid of the union and make some motorcycles that appeal to more people. The only bikes they did make that I would have liked to have owned were Buells.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

I read in one of the many motorcycle magazines I read, that after getting rid of Buell, that H-D was in negotiation with Hyosung, of S. Korea, to produce "entry level" bikes to be sold through H-D dealers. The negotiations were not limited to entry level bikes only; The discussion also looked at the possibility of producing a Sport Bike.

The Harley CEO may or may not have his head implanted someplace it shouldn't be, but the news story above had nothing to do with Harley. It was one of the Hyosung distributors trying to make deals with some local Harley dealerships to carry their make as a second line. Nobody from Harley corporate had anything to do with it, and nobody from any of the dealerships confirmed any of the talk anyway. Seemed like wishful thinking from Hyosung's side.

[Snake]

Here is a link to the story of Harley leaving town.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100804/...waukee_breakup

[Cab305]

I had a huge argument on a local forum over this.

They actually make more money selling shiny **** to bolt onto their bikes to make them heavier and slower. Oh they also have bedazzled leather goods.

[Brian250R]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

Read an article in this morning's Bangor Daily News that Harley-Davidson is in trouble. The new CEO, Keith Wardell, the man responsible for Buell's demise, is looking for a state where the H-D plant can relocate. Corporate headquarters are to remain in Milwaukee. Mr. Wardell came to H-D from the Ford Motor Company. I guess he is learning that being in upper management at Ford is a lot different than being the CEO of H-D. Dumping Buell was a huge mistake. I read in one of the many motorcycle magazines I read, that after getting rid of Buell, that H-D was in negotiation with Hyosung, of S. Korea, to produce "entry level" bikes to be sold through H-D dealers. The negotiations were not limited to entry level bikes only; The discussion also looked at the possibility of producing a Sport Bike. I guess that Erik Buell was to expensive tor H-D. The May issue of Cycle World has an insightful article outlining Buell's history and its eventual demise at the hands of H-D. I do hope that a similar axing of a good company like MV Augusta (also controlled/owned by Harley-Davidson) is not in the offing.

Lot's of misinformation and baseless opinion. In addition to what Alex already pointed out, the man's name is Wandell and he came from Johnson Controls.

I write this not as a Harley fan but as a man who has little patience for ignorance.

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by Brian250R

Lot's of misinformation and baseless opinion. In addition to what Alex already pointed out, the man's name is Wandell and he came from Johnson Controls.

I write this not as a Harley fan but as a man who has little patience for ignorance.

Thanks for the correction, but please don't be so rude next time.

[Brian250R]

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

Thanks for the correction, but please don't be so rude next time.

LOL. I'm not sure you know what rude is.

[KJohnson21]

How can H-D expect any good to come out of putting a non-motorcycle guy in charge of the corporation? The quotes that came out regarding his decision to dump Buell revealed that he has no personal interest in motorcycles at all, and does not understand the market. When I learned those details, I lost all sympathy for them.

For years I'd hoped that H-D would develop a modern motorcycle. I have basically no interest in their "retro" styling , and not a great interest in V-twins for the most part. When they dumped Buell they discarded one of their few links to modern development.

I just hope that they don't screw up MV Agusta in the process.

[tiggen]

Originally Posted by bob706

I know a way Harley can stay in Wisconson and make a ton of money....get rid of the union and make some motorcycles that appeal to more people. The only bikes they did make that I would have liked to have owned were Buells.

In a way I agree with you, but I think in this country the cruiser is king, period. As far as I know the MIC doesn't keep stats on bikes sold by type other than on road and off road. But I would venture to say way more cruisers are sold every year than any other "type."

[tiggen]

Originally Posted by Cab305

I had a huge argument on a local forum over this.

They actually make more money selling shiny **** to bolt onto their bikes to make them heavier and slower. Oh they also have bedazzled leather goods.

Remember when Yogurt says "merchandising, merchandising!!!" in Spaceballs?

[hubcapbandit]

hahaha

Harley Davidson - the toilet paper!

[tinng321]

Originally Posted by tiggen

In a way I agree with you, but I think in this country the cruiser is king, period. As far as I know the MIC doesn't keep stats on bikes sold by type other than on road and off road. But I would venture to say way more cruisers are sold every year than any other "type."

+1

[CC Cowboy]

Harleys rock, but you have to have the right attitude.

[bob706]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

I do hope that a similar axing of a good company like MV Augusta (also controlled/owned by Harley-Davidson) is not in the offing.

Aug 06, 2010 - 10:00 PM - by Ninjette Newsbot
Harley-Davidson announces that it has concluded the sale of its subsidiary, MV Agusta, to Claudio Castiglioni and his wholly owned holding company, MV Agusta Motor Holding S.r.l., effective today.

Don't know if you saw that one Alex. Makes you wonder why they didn't sell Buell to anyone.

[Cab305]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Harleys rock, but you have to have the right attitude.

Unfortunately a lot of new converts have the wrong one.

But more power to american motorcycling. Last thing we need is to loose that too.

[Cab305]

Originally Posted by tinng321

+1

You can thank the History and Learning channel, for a while there you couldn't watch tv without running across someone finishing a bike on deadline. lol

[Brian250R]

Originally Posted by bob706

Makes you wonder why they didn't sell Buell to anyone.

If they could have they most certainly would have done so. The past few years haven't exactly been the best times to invest in a motorcycle manufacturing and distribution business.

[Daeldren]

My understanding was that Bombadier approached Harley with a proposal to buy out Buell, but Harley was hesitant due to a lot of Buell's technology being intertwined with their other product lines.

Though once his non competition contract is up with Harley there may still be interest from BRP in buying his current business and turning it back around to street bikes.

[Brian250R]

Originally Posted by Daeldren

My understanding was that Bombadier approached Harley with a proposal to buy out Buell, but Harley was hesitant due to a lot of Buell's technology being intertwined with their other product lines.

If you think about it, that doesn't make any sense. Even if there were any "Buell technology" being used in any Harley they could have sold the business without the patents, although Erik personally owns all the ones that I believe are worth anything.

[adouglas]

Whether you're a Harley fan or a Harley hater, if the bit about Hyosung is true it shows a true lack of understanding of the company DNA (there, I've fullfilled my business-buzzword obligation for today).

This is not far from the dark days of the 1970s when AMF owned Harley. They didn't get it either.

Harleys will sell when the economy is good enough to support the purchase of very expensive toys by a wide range of Americans. There will always be Harley fans... the brand is that iconic. (After all, its renaissance was due to die-hard Harley fans turning the company around, right?)

But this is clearly a move in the wrong direction.

If it were me, I'd stay on their current course of making the company leaner by reducing capacity, without screwing around with the Chinese or generating a vast sea of bad PR by relocating the factory. Use the strong branded merchandise business to keep the cash flow going. Retool the dealership profile to reduce costs (around here the Harley dealers spend a lot more on promotion and floor space than anyone else).

Invest what money you have in product development.

THEN, once the economy has returned, reinvigorate the brand with killer new offerings that will grab everyone's attention. At that time, they'd be in a position of strength.

They should look at Ernie Ball Music Man as a model. That company is incredibly well managed. They produce really excellent instruments in the USA. They also have a licensing deal with a Korean manufacturer, but they've positioned themselves so that the import instruments won't get confused with the US-made ones.

And what keeps it going through the lean times is the sale of accessories, not guitars.

[Brian250R]

For now, as far as bikes are concerned, they need to return to the days when they produced one less bike per year than the market asked for, tipping the supply and demand scale back in their favor.

[tiggen]

Andrew, I think your post makes a lot of sense, but I have a possible reason why Harley wants to get a piece of Hyosung. Hyosung has had a footprint in Asia for some time. They have a dealer/distribution network already set up. If there is any demand for Harleys in the next few years, I'll wager it comes from Asia. I think getting access to a foreign distribution network was HD's rationale for buying MV Augusta in the first place.

[sofo]

BRP did offer to buy Buell, Harley-Davidson leadership blocked the sale.

There are a lot of reasons why Buell was unceremoniously dropped, depending on who's story you hear, it's too early to tell what is truth and what isn't. If you read about the history of Buell and Harley-Davidson, it's a sordid tale of a small company doing interesting things under the thumb of a large company with a set agenda. The recent success of Buell's rotax-powered bikes were not a good thing for Harley-Davidson, and no longer played into Buell's role as a feeder brand to bring new riders in on Buell bikes and up to Harley Davidson bikes later on.

MV Agusta was just sold to two Italian partners. It's time to celebrate and shudder since Italian ownership hasn't helped MV Agusta since the count's death. Harley-Davidson's ownership was very good for MV Agusta though, since the money allowed them to increase quality control and manfacturing capability as well as develop the new F4, Brutale, and upcoming F3. We'd only be seeing more rehashes of the last generation F4 otherwise.

I think it's important to note that Keith Wandell did not have a motorcycle license until just recently after he took the CEO position at Harley-Davidson, which I think speaks a lot to his interest(s) in the company / brand.

The Hyosung initiative is Buell all-over again but with a company more keen to produce what Harley-Davidson tells them to produce and gives them an "in" to the *very* lucrative asian market. As the baby boomers in North America trade in their soft tails for 'lil rascals, a new market with a new generation of affluent and image-concious buyers is making Keith salivate.

Harley-Davidson is doomed in a lot of ways unless they seriously start designing and marketing bikes that aren't what they have been doing for 40 years and trying to shoe-horn riders onto them via dumb ass leadership schemes.

[tiggen]

Originally Posted by sofo

As the baby boomers in North America trade in their soft tails for 'lil rascals...

Too bad you can't put pipes on 'em. But I'm sure they'll be dripping with chrome.

[Brian250R]

Originally Posted by sofo

MV Agusta was just sold to two Italian partners. It's time to celebrate and shudder since Italian ownership hasn't helped MV Agusta since the count's death.

MV Agusta was repurchased by brothers Claudio and Giovanni Castiglioni. They turned around Ducati and Husqvarna and there's no reason to doubt they can do it again.

Originally Posted by sofo

I think it's important to note that Keith Wandell did not have a motorcycle license until just recently after he took the CEO position at Harley-Davidson, which I think speaks a lot to his interest(s) in the company / brand.

This is absolutely meaningless. Whether he fails or succeeds at seeing H-D through these tough times will never in any way have anything to do with whether he got his motorcycle license at age 58 or 16. While being a leader at various positions at Johnson Controls for 20+ years, I doubt he ever had experience in stitching leather seat upholstery. Jack Welsh, arguably the most successful CEO in history, said it best, "its all about hiring the right people.”

Originally Posted by sofo

Harley-Davidson is doomed in a lot of ways unless they seriously start designing and marketing bikes that aren't what they have been doing for 40 years and trying to shoe-horn riders onto them via dumb ass leadership schemes.

The number one reason why H-D sales have been down is the economy. People aren't running away from buying a Harley because of style or technology. They simple don't have the money or the confidence that they'll have a job in the near future.
I have no idea what you mean by "shoe-horn riders onto them via dumb ass leadership schemes."

[sofo]

Brian250R, welcome to my ignore list.

[Brian250R]

Um, ok. Somehow I can't help but have a flashback to the long gone days of my youth when someone got their feelings hurt and they cried out "it's my ball and I'm going home!" In other words, grow up.

[sofo]

Originally Posted by tiggen

Too bad you can't put pipes on 'em. But I'm sure they'll be dripping with chrome.

I have this mental image of one with side pipes, bar-end tassels and and a guy sitting on it with argyle chaps.

/me shudders

[Sailariel]

Originally Posted by Brian250R

Lot's of misinformation and baseless opinion. In addition to what Alex already pointed out, the man's name is Wandell and he came from Johnson Controls.

I write this not as a Harley fan but as a man who has little patience for ignorance.

EXCUSE ME! We are all humbled by your genius. I have a problem with people who are a legend in their own mind. Get a life.

[Sailariel]

Originally Posted by sofo

Brian250R, welcome to my ignore list.

Ditto.

[Nemesis]

I love HDs. Someday, I hope to own one of these: What a beauty!!!

[Sailariel]

Nemesis, Totally agree. That is a beautiful bike---also wicked fast. I also like their new 1200.

[Brian250R]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

I have a problem with people who are a legend in their own mind. Get a life.

Deal with it. It's YOUR problem. Not mine.

[bob706]

Originally Posted by Brian250R

Deal with it. It's YOUR problem. Not mine.

Not really the vibe we're going for here.

[sofo]

I've seen a few V-Rod's in real life and one in particular parks close to where I live and I must say I wouldn't kick it out of the garage for leaking oil if you know what I mean.

It's a definate sign of what could be and hopefully gains traction in sales and thus in the boardroom to explore similar machines instead of yet another year of Street Glides, softails, and tweaked Sportsters.

[Sailariel]

Alex, I would appreciate it if you put that uncouth individual on my ignore list. There is no room on this forum for people who hammer someone for misspelling Keith What,s his face and not knowing he came from Johnson. Picayune details. I have no intention of being intimidated by this "Know it all" This forum is about motorcycles--not ego trips. If he is so smart, he should join Mensa. Then he would not have to deal with us ordinary folk.

[Brian250R]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

If he is so smart, he should join Mensa. Then he would not have to deal with us ordinary folk.

Funny you should say that. Truth be told, I've been a member since 1987. You'd be surprised how ordinary most Mensans are.

[sofo]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

Alex, I would appreciate it if you put that uncouth individual on my ignore list. There is no room on this forum for people who hammer someone for misspelling Keith What,s his face and not knowing he came from Johnson. Picayune details. I have no intention of being intimidated by this "Know it all" This forum is about motorcycles--not ego trips. If he is so smart, he should join Mensa. Then he would not have to deal with us ordinary folk.

You can add people to your ignore list via your user control panel -> Edit Ignore List.

[littledog]

Around here, of motorcyles on the road, I would conservatively guesstimate 2 Harleys to 1 of everything else combined.

Harleys are very expensive to buy. I don't know how expensive they are to build.

Harley sure isn't wasting money on research and development. If Honda was Harley, they would sell the 1970's style air cooled 4 cyl in 7 different trim lines, and the 1980's 4 cylinder goldwing type in 11 different trim lines, and NOTHING ELSE.

Harley accessories are also expensive, I am sure there is an obscene profit margin, as all that crap is made in China.

So Harley has very loyal following who will buy nothing but a Harley no matter what. Harley spends zero on engineering new products. They sell tons of very profitable accessories. If they are not turning a big profit now, then god help them when all the 60 yr old Harley faithful turn 80 and cannot even polish chrome any more.